65:4 tense child marriage/pedophilia

huruf

Muhsana doesn't mean "with capacity of consent" in any dictionary or even the Quran itself. It's consistently used to mean chaste (women) or pure/protected (things)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn

4.25 is about seeking permission from the guardian and dowry.
"So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable"

This verse has nothing to do with starting or concluding a divorce by a woman. It's the about the right of the man to keep his wife if she is found to be pregnant.

A clear verse would be like "O'Women, you may divorce your husbands if they ... etc"
or "O'Women you may refuse a marriage proposal .... "

peace.

YOur translation of muhsana does not fit in all cases and it does not make sense to translate here so and there so, and I did not say or mean capacity of conbsent but a woman with capacity of consent.

In fact most translators trnaslate by several terms and not the same everyhere. like something as disparate as married woman and indeendent woman and then honest woman and then many things.

You seem to have taken for granted all the nonsense all the convenient arrangements of "scholars" and you have not looked at it properly.

5.5.

This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (5)

Is it not rather silly to point out that they can only marry chaste women? Which men look around in order to marry unchaste women? And on the other hand, the Qur'an is clear everywhere, for chaste menand for chaste women chaste men. Nowhere it is forbiden marriage to the unchaste.

You invent or you copy without any critical mind on what you read int he orginal Qur'an.

And it seems that that fits wonderfully in your anti islamic outlook.

That you want the Qur'an to be filth, does not make it so.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

419 often gets quoted. But that is a partial prohibition on the practice of inheriting women. i.e. when the father died the son would inherit his wives/concubines except his mother.

show which word/s is red part you wrote above?

419 O you the ones believes ye of not lawful for you that thou inherit/receive ye of the womenfolk averse of and not thou hinder ye them that may take ye of in part what have given ye them except that approach in immorality clear and live with them in the fair manner so if disliked ye them so perhaps that disliked ye of thing of and maketh the god in it superior much of

422 and not thou marry ye of who married/had sex fathers yours from the womenfolk except what hence passed surely it be immorality and abhorrence of and an evil path of
423 urrimat/unlawful... and cohabitants sons yours the ones from loins yours and that thou cohabit ye of between the sisters two except what hence passed indeed the god be forgiver of merciful of

Is there a verse in the Quran that clearly states that a women can initiate and complete a divorce.

show which part of word/s means "he" ....?

2230 so if allaqah/divorce (f) so not lawful for him from after until she marry spouse of other than him ...

in context to whom is this address?

665 perhaps lord his if allaqakunna/divorce you (f/p) that changed for him spouses of superior of from you ...

Wakas

I've searched all over the Internet and while they're many claims that make sense saying this refers to women with irregular stops. but no one can disprove that this also means a young girl (because of the jussive meaning that it intends!!). Does this jussive term apply always?

Claim "no one can disprove that this also means a young girl"

Whether it can be disproved or not will depend on your method of understanding Quran. For example, let's say you are trying to interpret one verse and you determine there are 2 theoretically possible meanings.

The Quran is not one verse, it is a whole book of many verses. Thus, one will have to analyse other verses that discuss the same (or similar) subject to see if the possible options can be narrowed down.

Info in my original post in this thread.

reel

Muhsana doesn't mean "with capacity of consent" in any dictionary or even the Quran itself. It's consistently used to mean chaste (women) or pure/protected (things)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=HSn

4.25 is about seeking permission from the guardian and dowry.
"So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable"

This verse has nothing to do with starting or concluding a divorce by a woman. It's the about the right of the man to keep his wife if she is found to be pregnant.

A clear verse would be like "O'Women, you may divorce your husbands if they ... etc"
or "O'Women you may refuse a marriage proposal .... "

peace.

And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive . So do not incline completely and leave another hanging. And if you amend and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.But if they separate , Allah will enrich each from His abundance. And ever is Allah Encompassing and Wise.4129-130

Some things are self explanatory. Otherwise, it is lawful for women to eat pork -\

burhan

And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive . So do not incline completely and leave another hanging. And if you amend and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.But if they separate , Allah will enrich each from His abundance. And ever is Allah Encompassing and Wise.4129-130

The complete passage is 4127-130. Again, the verses simply say two people can stay together (encouraged) or separate (allowed). I am not arguing that.

My question is can a women divorce her husband. Does the concept of "divorced man" even exist in the Quran.

All the verses about divorce are worded as an action done to women by men.

tallaqtumu alnnisaa 2231, 2232, 2236, 651. "you divorce women"

alilmutallaqati 2228, 2241 "divorced-women"

Language is important ... don't you agree.

You will not see the expression "divorced men" anywhere. Just like dowry it is something given to and received by the woman alone. Women can only ask for divorce.

Some things are self explanatory. Otherwise, it is lawful for women to eat pork -\

Yes with enough mental and linguistic gymnastics many have made pork halal.

Wakas

peace all,

Yes with enough mental and linguistic gymnastics many have made pork halal.

I think reel is referring to that prohibition command being addressed in the masculine, but we all take it as applying to both male and female. The masculine address can include both male and female of course.

I'm not sure why the topic moved onto divorce but burhan is right, there is no talaq/divorce done by women to men in Quran. You can read about the divorce procedure as per Quran here
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

If a woman wanted divorce she can ask her husband to divorce her, but if the husband does not divorce her, she can inform the authority herself and request a release from marriage. Whilst different words are used the procedure is actually the same for both men/women, as the husband would also have to notify the authority if he wished to divorce.

huruf

Although the translations of aya 2.228 are usually a real mess, nevertheless it does not offer any doubt that it says that whatever is done to women or exacted from them, they can equally do in their turn it is a categorical and general statement and quite plain

And due to women is the like of what is due from them

Salaam

imrankhawaja

If a woman wanted divorce she can ask her husband to divorce her, but if the husband does not divorce her, she can inform the authority herself and request a release from marriage. Whilst different words are used the procedure is actually the same for both men/women, as the husband would also have to notify the authority if he wished to divorce.

peace,

"javed ahmed ghamidi" said the same thing .. he is modern scholar who although refer history but he say the law must be taken from quran wiithout any help of outside source

he say that a women can ask for divorce , but she cant give divorce according to quran
its the responsibilty of the state to make some laws that help women
let say if a women want to get divorce she will ask from husband , if husband didnt give her divorce in 90 days then the law force a man to give her divorce ..

he was also telling it to the goverment officals to make this law but nobody really bother about it..

i think the decision is in the hand of man due to multiple reasons , because he lead the system of family , he need to think about it and make other party think.. taking this thing in mind he is responisble for feeding the kids too

some modern womens look the husband wife relationship as gf/bf perception thats why things not working properly..

i already explain the the degrees of relations.. its not about women and man its about relations

my mother(women) have three degrees over me
my father have (man) have one degree over me..

same goes with wife she will say
my husband(man) have one degree over me..
my son (man) i have three degrees over him..

look its about relations not about gender..

when quran talk about husband , it talks about the main leader of house .. he must deserve due respect
same like a mother must need due respect from son...

if you accept this system most of the womens accept it then you will have a healthy relation and perfect system..
if you go against this system and wishful thinking will lead you nowhere what we see in western culture when this relation take place as bf/gf or on other words partnership..

you can always compare the seperations .. 70 % cases eneded up in seperation even after kids..

modern women need to understand relations instead of gender jealousy...
even in office if you dnt follow your leader/boss the system of office will messed up

so the system of house , husband deserve to be respected and one degree over wife..

peace
God bless you all

imrankhawaja

sometimes people bring the 4 34 in a negetive way..

i ask from all the mothers of this forum ..
is there is any mother who never "beat" their kids..

i m sure kids in their childhood do mistakes so womens sometimes hit them so that he never do that mistake again..
although i m against violence by myself.. but the truth is there

in my life one time my mom hit me .. just one time i really never feel anything bad about it .. nor i have any issue
my other brothers/sisters get beated from father and mother all their lives..
in that sense i m lucky but if i encounter the same situation there is nothing much i can do becoz its their right to stop me from doing wrong

first they will tel me no to do this thing again
after that they will shout at me
if i still doing this then perhaps the ending way is to hit me (thats logical)

if i still dnt listen them , then they will say me to leave the house we dnt need our system get disturbed by you...

its my interpretation if the word (dharab) is realy reffering to beat or strike

otherwise different people have different interpretation...

this verse is talking about a "cheating wife"

exception is just to cheating wife ... but in the case of kids mother father can beat them of dishonesty, cheating, stealing, causing trouble, breaking things of home, asking dangerous things.

intrestingly when a kid dnt want to go to school , mother hit him becoz she is looking at the future of kid.. at that time kid did not understand this thing..

even the system of God run on same principle , he will roast the wicked in hell like barbque chicken lol
look in the end all things reversed to God...

4 34 is the most logical verse of quran ..

burhan

I'm not sure why the topic moved onto divorce but ...

The original question was on 654 was about divorcing prepubescent girls. My suggestion was to look at the entire lifecycle of marriage.

I think quranists do too many mental and linguistic gymnastics to make the quran fit with modern European ideas of society.

The fact is the quran was revealed to a deeply patriarchal/polygamist society. It's is clearly evident in the language. They would ask for a ruling on their particular issues and the solutions provided were for them only. We should accept that and then dismiss those passages rather than pretending the quran is some feminist manual.

peace.

burhan

its my interpretation if the word (dharab) is realy reffering to beat or strike

I agree with you as does anybody who has studied the language. However I take this approach.

http//www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/maajids-blazing-row-with-muslim-woman/?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

this verse is talking about a "cheating wife"

No zina is dealt with else where in the quran. 100 lashes (or stoning if you are into hadith).

huruf

I agree with you as does anybody who has studied the language. However I take this approach.

You may have studied the language but not that much if you come up with such a nonsense as to the word in the Qur'an. We are not dealing with common speak in the street nowadays, but with the Qur'an.

Arrogance does not prove knowledge and posing as to those who disagree with you do not know does not make you any more knowledgeable.

As to the Qur'an, obviously you get kicks of givin it the worst possible interpretation may it fit or not.

Never mind, we are used to this kind of "intelect".

Salaam

Wakas

peace imran, burhan,

Re 434

Perhaps you have not read www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html

Summary of the main findings

idriboo/DaRaBa was shown not to mean "beat" anywhere in The Quran
no Classical Arabic Dictionary references 434 at all nor gives DRB=beat in a comparable example, i.e. with a direct object with no prepositions, no what/where/how
when The Quran uses DRB to mean a physical hit/strike it ALWAYS uses the preposition "bi" (with/by)
The understanding of "beat/strike" causes internal contradictions within The Quran, and this is also probably why no commentator, past or present, uses The Quran itself to justify this view.
"beat" causes discrepancies between Traditional commentators, Traditional Ahadith and Classical Arabic dictionaries
the earliest Classical Arabic dictionary (Kitab Al Ayn) does not state DRB=beat as a meaning, and only indirectly does it have DRB=strike (with sword).

The understanding of DRB in 434 as "cite / indicate / put/show forth them" (to the authority) is the ONLY understanding that provides perfect internal coherence in The Quran. It is the ONLY understanding

that provides a sequential link from 434 to 435
to provide identical solutions between men & women in 434 and 4128
that fits and perfectly explains 581-4
that fits the divorce procedure of The Quran and related compensation
that explains the reasoning behind the context of wealth/inheritance/giving/kindness etc.
is consistent with the use of DRB with a direct object with no prepositions, in which it always means "put/show forth" / "cite"
that 100% matches the use of DRB when used with a person as the object, e.g. 273, 4357.

imrankhawaja

peace wakas..

in my post i was actually talking about divorce giving and a degree of husband over wife.. same like mother have three degrees over his son

annyway lets finish this thing

this particular verse and word (zarabu) we cant skip words from the text of quran on wishful thinking if its not "beat" it must be something which according to situation fits perfect and provide us logical interpretation ...

lets analyse all quran alone translations .. and then i will tell u difference in the end..

Edip-Layth (Quran A Reformist Translation)
434 The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The reformed women are devotees and protectors of privacy what God has protected. As for those women from whom you fear disloyalty, then you shall advise them, abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.

The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation)
434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
434 MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the right?eous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has guar?ded. And as for those women whose ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them ; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great!

Rashad Khalifa (The Final Testament)
434 The men are made responsible for the women, 8 * and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.*,

Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
434 Men are the protectors and supporters of women. They shall take full care of women with what they spend of their wealth. God has made men to excel in some areas and women to excel in some areas. Men should ensure that women are able to stand at their feet in the society. So, righteous women are obedient to God?s ordinances and guard the moral values even in privacy, the values that God has commanded to be guarded. If you experience ill-treatment from them, apprise them of possible consequences. Next, leave them in their resting places, and refer them for arbitration. If they pay heed to you, do not seek a way against them. God is Most High, Most Great.

now as per first two interpretation. authors never touch the word (zarabu) and they did not translate it .. so let these two disqualify from comparing.

rest of the three touch that word and translate it, out of which two of them translate it as "beat"

the last one translate it as arbitration (a methaphorcial approach not grammatical in which he is expert) in one of his version at www.openburhan.com he write in this way And keep admonishing them with examples that they stop rebelling i wonder he tried his best of gymnastic with that word time by time but truth is truth.. whatever we comes up with..

as per my knowledge "muhammad asad" have a full grip of understanding this word(zarab) according to grammar and language rules so i consider his translation one of the best. (see the note of 273)

now if you just replace husband and wife and put father & son/mother & son/elder sister & brother/uncle & nephew , then no body have issue with this beating ..

God bless you all

imrankhawaja

I agree with you as does anybody who has studied the language. However I take this approach.

brother the best interpretation of things you can find in this forum..

example is some people interpret polygamy for women and men both(at the same time) brickwall .. so you are free to check everything whatever somebody claim..

this time use this type of "intellect"

like this post..

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609394.msg403434#msg403434

reel

peace all,

I think reel is referring to that prohibition command being addressed in the masculine, but we all take it as applying to both male and female. The masculine address can include both male and female of course.

I'm not sure why the topic moved onto divorce but burhan is right, there is no talaq/divorce done by women to men in Quran. You can read about the divorce procedure as per Quran here
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

If a woman wanted divorce she can ask her husband to divorce her, but if the husband does not divorce her, she can inform the authority herself and request a release from marriage. Whilst different words are used the procedure is actually the same for both men/women, as the husband would also have to notify the authority if he wished to divorce.

That's right.

Wakas

peace imran,

An appeal to Muhammad Asad is an appeal to authority logical fallacy
https//yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

Asad may be right, he may be wrong. How we decide is the Quranic evidence. From Asad's note on this verse you will see he does not bring any supporting evidence from Quran, and he even contradicts the Arabic of Quran by implying "beat" is when the wife is obviously guilty of immoral conduct. Note, the Arabic of Quran explicitly states it is about "fearing" something happening.

And in your post you were wondering why there is a discrepancy in Shabbir Ahmed's translation of 434. It is because he changed his translation after being shown www.Quran434.com see here.

Perhaps you too will change your view after reading it.

imrankhawaja

peace imran,

An appeal to Muhammad Asad is an appeal to authority logical fallacy
https//yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

Asad may be right, he may be wrong. How we decide is the Quranic evidence. From Asad's note on this verse you will see he does not bring any supporting evidence from Quran, and he even contradicts the Arabic of Quran by implying "beat" is when the wife is obviously guilty of immoral conduct. Note, the Arabic of Quran explicitly states it is about "fearing" something happening.

And in your post you were wondering why there is a discrepancy in Shabbir Ahmed's translation of 434. It is because he changed his translation after being shown www.Quran434.com see here.

Perhaps you too will change your view after reading it.

peace wakas,

actually since my childhood this beating or striking(in case of immoral) thingie i never get on with it.. and i have the similar thinking about this particular verse.. what you have , but guess what happen with me in the life which cost me my life.

in general i never beleive in beating .. instead i like love and patience and an event happen that shakes me from upside down and few months ago i re-analyse my wishful thinking this time i get on with this word..

i feel its a time to share my life story .. i came here in this country as a student i earn hard by day and night .. finally i get married at the time of marriage i was not aware my wife already have a kid and she was cheating with me . on other words there was a group of people who was doing sham marriages and i become one of the victim..
all my family was against that marriage but i never listen them. i make her the leader of my house system , after finishing all my money she told me about her son who was 8 (first shock) after that i find out other things that she is still involve with her husband and it was her husband who send her for the sake of money(second shock) .. soon after i find out this thing guess what..
i never "hit" her in my whole life even after finiding out her (immoralty) i was just living my life according to my understanding of quran.. after finding the truth i let her go.
two months after she came back home one day ask me some money because she have nothing to feed for her kid.. she told me you are a strange person you never show me love if you "beat" me when you find out my mistake perhaps i never would left youthen she add "i feel you dnt have care for me" (

after that i feel is this the way God telling me correct interpretation and then when i see the full intepretation of verse God is actually advising the leader of family to lead in money matters too if i had that understanding probably still i m not a person who beat somebody but atleast i saved my hardwork of life.. which i earn by day and night ..

and guess what she lied me once she took 5000? from me and said her mother had cancer..
and when my mother had cancer i was helpless but God helped me somehow ..

all these things happen in just one year (its just a very little of my horrible story what i share)

but before accepting anything i must go around and check things when a father beat his kid or a teacher beat student which is pretty normal in areas where we brought up we did not find it disturbing.. only when (immoral) wife beating thing comes up we suddenly try to find alternates of translation i think we should not make our opinion above LAW..

in some cases this beating thing work and saves relationships specially if you have kids together ..
in some cases father beats their daughters when they fear immoral acts
in some cases mother beat his son when he ask to play with snake or fire
in all that cases beating is for betterment perhaps he/she listen

i think asad transalate it as " beat " due to a reason even shabbir ahmed make interpretation of one word to 8 words giving same meanings that somehow do something if u want to save that relation.. and traditionally its normal

forget about quran tradition and this 4 34

lets see in the country where we are living its unlawful here to beat our gf/wives

but still as soon husband find out about (immorality) of wife they start beating her without thinking a second i witness myslef lot of these cases.. even in the cases of bf /gf relationship when gf cheats , bf get crzy and beats his gf, three times i saw one my workmate have marks on the face and after asking why it happen she told me that her bf find out that she was with somebody else. its a human nature regardless of laws or anything and God is well aware about it.

i feel the word here is due to a reason and let this word there..
right now my position about this word is neutral just for this specific verse.. for other people i never wish they encounter what i encounter..

the only problem is equality can wife also beat husband on immorality?
yes she can but God did not adv ise it becoz womens are not strong enough to fight with males so it will give them harm more than benefit..

second thing if a mother beat his son its not logical that son hit her back ..(its consider a wrong doing and sin)

in all this i feel the husband have a degree over wife so God also make somethings under his commands .. like divorce giving from which our discussion started becoz husband is thinking on long term regarding kids and everything.. the immoral women did not bother about even kids and stuff so futher side effects are more harmful..

now considering all this how can we think its illogical .. it is with full of logic

and moreover look what God is doing on immorality , (100 lashes) whats this?
and on immoral acts God is also punishing us , he will roast us in hell like a chicken why?

i understand this and i ask forgiveness from God if i misunderstood anything in my previous life due to my weak knowledge

everybody have a right to agree and disagree , its a personal right nobody can take away from you when i was beleiving on other way round it give me wrong result now i m beleiving it the literal way lets see what it brings handshake

and sorry for long post group

amin

Peace Imran,

Good or bad action only will be known after the results of those actions get revealed. Marriages need to be taken seriously, here we call it as a 1000 year crop.

Anyway i think beating will not give the results one expect, just it will be usefull to satisfy our ego, Then how much to beat will be next question, what if the other person get injured or dies.

Best is to find ways to part away.
Sorry to hear your story.
Salam.

imrankhawaja

Peace Imran,

Good or bad action only will be known after the results of those actions get revealed. Marriages need to be taken seriously, here we call it as a 1000 year crop.

Anyway i think beating will not give the results one expect, just it will be usefull to satisfy our ego, Then how much to beat will be next question, what if the other person get injured or dies.

Best is to find ways to part away.
Sorry to hear your story.
Salam.

peace brother
i m against the beating .. i never did it i was surprised when she ask why did not i beat her? o

well why this word is there in my humble view in some cases it works in some cases it not works.
its not only on husband wife when i comapre things i usually comapre it as whole.

now i ll ask from father or mother why did they beat their kids upon immorality?
how much they should beat?

atleast God set his limits he will beat us (100 lashes) by his law? ( even ten lashes can get you died) is God also unaware about it?

as i stated earlier my position revised back to neutral on this specific verse
if this word takes as literal (i have no issue)
if this word taken as something else( i have no issue too)

he alone knows his secrets and the interpretation of multiple meaning verses as per 3 7

i share my experience becoz i affected from my previous understandings?

so i advise all of my brothers to lead family as husband as per God rules thats all.

God bless

NOTE about ego yeh some people might do it due to ego but i m not one of them . i preffer my God over ego
but on the contrary i feel in this specific situation human emotions are unable to control same like when you put ur hand on fire the law will get u burn . same when a women cheat the law of emotions lead husband to beat her ..

our nature is faulty.. not that we are eggoist

RED dnt worry brother it was just a trailor of my story a person like me who was full of love find himself in the catagory who start hate somebody .. i never remember hating anybody in life .. look this effect make me a hater even its just one person ..but i beleive this was pre destined or pre recorded.. i was helpless