Quran - word of God
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first of all focus on this..
8119 It is the saying of an honorable messenger.
8120 Strengthened by Him Who is enthroned in His Almightiness of Supreme Control.coming back to your question..
yeh there are plantey of proofs like this one .. the prophecy of pharoah ( event started approx 1600 years ago before quran and then its documented as prophecy then prophecy get fullfilled after approx 1300 years) ... this single prophecy is worth pondering...
its a revelation from God .. not a word of God..
God bless you
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first of all focus on this..
8119 It is the saying of an honorable messenger.
8120 Strengthened by Him Who is enthroned in His Almightiness of Supreme Control.coming back to your question..
yeh there are plantey of proofs like this one .. the prophecy of pharoah ( event started approx 1600 years ago before quran and then its documented as prophecy then prophecy get fullfilled after approx 1300 years) ... this single prophecy is worth pondering...
its a revelation from God .. not a word of God..
God bless you
I read in another of your posts that you were an Atheist?
Have you changed to a Muslim?
I addressed my question to those who are Quran only Muslims and submit to the will of God.The reason for this is that everyone has an opinion on this question including those who do not believe in God and who hate the Quran.
For me the Quran is the word or message of God to humans conveyed via Gabriel to Muhammad.
If you wish to call this a revelation that's fine but not really part of my question.
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The proof of the Qur'an as something that once shown would convince absolutely everybody without exception does nto exist, I do not think, not only that, there is no proof of anything that would convince absolutely everybody, when such proof exists, even in "science" by many people it is believed out of blind faith not out of conviction.
We believe int he "truths" of science because they come with an authroity behind them. We believe those who state those things know and they would not lie. Both things may not be true. They may also be true of course.
Therefore no such a thing exists that if I believe that it is true I may feel sure not to be an idiot because there is no other possibility except that it be true.
The advantage of the Qur'an, of any spiritual truth is that indeed we may find a proof for each of us, eah of us may find out, but we many not transmit that truth to others. We are the proof. We may try everything the Qur'an says and find out whether it is true or not. We may ask God for something legitimate in a lagitimate way, we will see whether he responds or not.
We have our proof in our hearts.
Of course we have also some philosofical truth, but those truths do not convince everybody, nor in fact convince the believer although theymay make him more comfortable in society.
Also the miracles in Qur'an, the miracle in Qur'an the miracle outside Qur'an there only one, existence, all that exists, is it logical, I do not know, it is, that is all I know.
Other miracles in Qur'an I distrust. God himself refuses to show miracles for our convenience, on the other hand he constantly points out to the things that do exist as they exist making us reflect on the wonders they entail. The balance, the balance in sura Ar-Rahman...
Let the Qur'an stealth into you heart and you will have your truth.
Salaam
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I read in another of your posts that you were an Atheist?
the only news about me what i dnt know ? brickwall
Have you changed to a Muslim?
actually the day i start understanding nature , several years ago i convert my self to muslim(peacemaker)
and i have a plan to die as a muslim(peacemaker)
and this condition of peacemaking remain unchanged from years and hopefully i will carry on with it.. )I addressed my question to those who are Quran only Muslims and submit to the will of God.
allright
i wonder there is no caution or warning note in your post regarding this.. yeahon top of that there is not anybody here who decalre themselves as Quran only Muslim
at least i did not encounter any of them.. even the home page of website is God alone instead of quran alone.. groupThe reason for this is that everyone has an opinion on this question including those who do not believe in God and who hate the Quran.
now look at your point above what should i say huh?
anyway you asked a question and i gave you answer ... if you have something against it you are welcome to ask more proofs from me...
For me the Quran is the word or message of God to humans conveyed via Gabriel to Muhammad.
exactly thats what i corrected ... by the verses i just posted you in my previous post
aww can i ask you a favor send me the news of my post in which i declare myself athiest . i love to read that news ...
peace
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the only news about me what i dnt know ? brickwall
actually the day i start understanding nature , several years ago i convert my self to muslim(peacemaker)
and i have a plan to die as a muslim(peacemaker)
and this condition of peacemaking remain unchanged from years and hopefully i will carry on with it.. )Another poster has accused you of nitpicking but perhaps you may have forgotten this. In any case I feel that you change your views based on your desire to argue with others endlessley.
For this reason and until I see some coherency in your posts I would be happy if you avoided arguing with me.
You are welcome to use icons and emoticons to mock other posters if you so feel but this will be my last post with you based on the mockery, incoherence and lack of a consistent logic that is a hallmark of your posts.
And as you seem to forget your Atheism please Try this thread where you claim not to be a Muslim but a Christian and then moving towards Atheism
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=404543;topic=9609490.0;last_msg=404547
i m thinking to change the flavor of my faith .. becoz i was ex sunni, then quran alone, then god alone,
now i m a christian bt nobody really knows here ...but from last few days my perception is from the athiest lens its awsome ...
may b when i complete my perception and thoughts i ll share my experience...
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Another poster has accused you of nitpicking but perhaps you may have forgotten this. In any case I feel that you change your views based on your desire to argue with others endlessley.
oh yeh see the discussion between me and other poster properly... with open eyes..
he claimed something , i ask something in which in the end he turns away from his own words... and then i advise him to verify information as per 17 36same advice to you .. i think i already gave u that advice in that thread dnt judge a book by its cover.. but i feel you are not much careful about advices
in case i post that thread againhttps//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609453.msg404669#msg404669
For this reason and until I see some coherency in your posts I would be happy if you avoided arguing with me.
i m not arguing , i answer your post and you start argue with me , and now we are in the middle of nowhere just becoz , i think you already know it..
i think you should have to say it like this.. i would be happy if you avoid replying my threads? anyway advice taken you will not see me replying you next time.. apart from this ongoing thread if u have anything to say .. handshake
You are welcome to use icons and emoticons to mock other posters if you so feel but this will be my last post with you based on the mockery, incoherence and lack of a consistent logic that is a hallmark of your posts.
some times its difficult for people to understand the words so i use emotions on other words an easy message ...
same like i used LOL in one of my post which means i m kidding .. i mean the post you just posted ..see below now..
and you are welcome but i did not see the defination of mockery is = what you claim as mockery ?
And as you seem to forget your Atheism please Try this thread where you claim not to be a Muslim but a Christian and then moving towards Atheism
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=404543;topic=9609490.0;last_msg=404547
first of all post the wording of full post .. like this..
i m ex devil lol ....
i m thinking to change the flavor of my faith .. becoz i was ex sunni, then quran alone, then god alone,
now i m a christian bt nobody really knows here ...but from last few days my perception is from the athiest lens its awsome ...
may b when i complete my perception and thoughts i ll share my experience...
the post started from ex devil and then lol or this emotions rotfl its mean i m kidding
second thing i asked you where i declare i am athiest ? is it reallyy a hard question to understand...
its like this .. i m an athiest , i dnt belleive in God so come debate with me...
do toba now you accuse a beleiver as an athiest ...
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Qalem is "a clipping", cutted piece of something.
The Qur'an is El-Qalem, The Clipping from Allah's Speech. As told in 3127 Allah's Speech is unlimited, and we got just the clipping of It, a piece which is enough for all the knowledge we need.
I actually started the thead in relation to evidence used for the divinity of the Quran. Please see the question at the top.
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You asked if the Qur'an is the Word from Allah.
So, the answer is yes, but the Qur'an is just the clipping, not all what Allah has/can say. Maybe you wanted to ask something else? One of evidences is in the word "qalem", as I tried to explain.
This is not evidence, it is usage of a word and then translation of that word. You have essentially said that the Quran is qalem, but what is the evidence?
I don't want to use the evidence of Sam Gerrens or the 19-ers, but they have used evidence - even if many feel that it is not reliable. By "evidence" though, this is the concept I mean.
Also, those of us who believe in the Quran alone state that we do not rely on history as it can be falsified or the Hadith as they are nothing better than Chinese whispers - but evidence here is implied as objective facts and information rather than translation of words in the Quran.If the point is still not clear, imagine the word qalem in any other book that claims to be Divine.
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brother aladin , peace
i gave him evidence at my first post as you can see .. but he replied that evidence in a illogical way police
he said i m an athiest so evidences are only taken from quran alone brothers and sisters... rotfl
i wonder he did not even talk about that evidence (prophecy)?
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While I'm replying I'm translating words from my language (my understanding) to English. Is it something wrong? If I'm using my knowledge, formed in my language and translate it into English words is it wrong?
Qalem is a clipping and there's word El-Qalem in the Qur'an, by which Rabb is teaching a human (el-insan) (note it's not for teaching el-jaann) So, what is El-Qalem for you? "A pen", "the pen"...? I hope you understand that there was not much pens around 1400 years ago.
What is told is that Allah swt can talk non-stop to us, but there's no need, He can teach us from the clipping of His Speech - what we know as El-Qur'an.
El-Qur'an is also "just" a name of Allah's Speech, and it means "reading and thinking that never ends". El-Furqan is another name, as well as Ez-Zikr and many others.
We're looking at The Qur'an as it is some book with its title, preface, chapters and so on, but the Qur'an is not a book. It's Allah's Speech, one we should listen and think about it, again and again and again.
If we do so He will teach us by It and we'll know what is "god" (ilah) sometimes, next time we can teach what is kalem, and maybe some day we'll know what is el-insan...
What's the reason for your question? You have doubts about its origin?
We should go back to the start and start think about the word "bi", then "(i)sm", then "Allah", then "rahm", then "hamd", then "Rabb"... it's how He was/is talking to us.
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While I'm replying I'm translating words from my language (my understanding) to English. Is it something wrong? If I'm using my knowledge, formed in my language and translate it into English words is it wrong?
Qalem is a clipping and there's word El-Qalem in the Qur'an, by which Rabb is teaching a human (el-insan) (note it's not for teaching el-jaann) So, what is El-Qalem for you? "A pen", "the pen"...? I hope you understand that there was not much pens around 1400 years ago.
What is told is that Allah swt can talk non-stop to us, but there's no need, He can teach us from the clipping of His Speech - what we know as El-Qur'an.
El-Qur'an is also "just" a name of Allah's Speech, and it means "reading and thinking that never ends". El-Furqan is another name, as well as Ez-Zikr and many others.
We're looking at The Qur'an as it is some book with its title, preface, chapters and so on, but the Qur'an is not a book. It's Allah's Speech, one we should listen and think about it, again and again and again.
If we do so He will teach us by It and we'll know what is "god" (ilah) sometimes, next time we can teach what is kalem, and maybe some day we'll know what is el-insan...
What's the reason for your question? You have doubts about its origin?
We should go back to the start and start think about the word "bi", then "(i)sm", then "Allah", then "rahm", then "hamd", then "Rabb"... it's how He was/is talking to us.
I did not mean to put you on the defensive.
I do believe the Quran is the word of God relayed via Gabriel and Muhammad to humankind.
However it is a belief.
I reject the evidence of numerologists like the 19-ers and am not convinced by the evidence of people like Sam Gerrens.
However, the thing with belief is that it can be a blind belief unless backed up by facts.
Your response does not seem like any sort of evidence to me for the following reason - imagine if someone brings their own book and translates a word and tells us that it is conclusive evidence that the book is the word of God.
I will elaborate further.
I completely reject the Hadith as part of religion, but I am not really sure that it is correct to ignore ALL history as some sort of conspiracy as is often done.
Many Quranists I have come across say they reject Hadith but also history as it can be changed.However, if we reject all history then we can only believe in today and that does not make sense.
So I think that there may be a way of using some historical facts or indeed more importantly the internal structure of the Quran to show that it is divine.
I hope this is clear.
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Wakas,
Do you have any links to the evidence about the order of the verses in the Quran?
I have read the work by Sam Gerrens and am not convinced as he uses an external alphanumerical code whilst ignoring the Hadith for similar reasons.
The numerology argument is not really something that makes sense to me either.
The current order of the Quran seems to be almost done with large verses at the beginning and small verses at the end.
The context of the Quran does not make complete sense in this order.Some Quranists have said that one can ignore the "other order" of the Quran - ie order of so-called revelation as it is the one used by Hadithists. However, most Hadithists use the current order of the Quran with the big verses at the beginning and the small verses at the end.
Thanks
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Yes, I read about your belief. But we know just a little. If I tell you that the word for "Belief" in the Qur'an is "qalb" you probably won't believe it
There's some interesting narration which I heard years ago if something comes to you from me and you find it in Allah's Kitab then take it, if you don't find it then leave it. I find this very true.
You don't need to reject any of history or anything else, there're a lot of truth everywhere. But, if we wanna know then we should check first if we're humans (el-insan), then, in case we're, we can teach all from our Rabb (we should know what this means) by El-Qalem (which is not possible without knowing the meaning of this).
If you're a human (this can be funny to you, but it's not) then reject (k-f-r) all taghoot and confirm (a-m-n) your faith (qalb) in Allah exclusivelly.
Try to find out what is Rabb and you'll see why you need the knowledge. If you like it try to find what is El-Qalem and be close to it non-stop and you'll get the knowledge for sure. I hope you'll get great knowledge.
After that, as you're getting more and more knowledge, you'll know what is truth in anything you read/hear.
If we're trying to teach truth about reality (haqq) from others, skipping (min duni) Allah, we'll fail for sure. Other are "ulema", lexicons, opinions... Exclusivelly (iyya) Rabb is teaching el-insan, but we have to come as His slaves and in shame of Him, exclusivelly.
There're a tons of evidences for your question, but I've chosen this one because we all should go back to the start, we're misguided.
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Yes, I read about your belief. But we know just a little. If I tell you that the word for "Belief" in the Qur'an is "qalb" you probably won't believe it
There's some interesting narration which I heard years ago if something comes to you from me and you find it in Allah's Kitab then take it, if you don't find it then leave it. I find this very true.
You don't need to reject any of history or anything else, there're a lot of truth everywhere. But, if we wanna know then we should check first if we're humans (el-insan), then, in case we're, we can teach all from our Rabb (we should know what this means) by El-Qalem (which is not possible without knowing the meaning of this).
If you're a human (this can be funny to you, but it's not) then reject (k-f-r) all taghoot and confirm (a-m-n) your faith (qalb) in Allah exclusivelly.
Try to find out what is Rabb and you'll see why you need the knowledge. If you like it try to find what is El-Qalem and be close to it non-stop and you'll get the knowledge for sure. I hope you'll get great knowledge.
After that, as you're getting more and more knowledge, you'll know what is truth in anything you read/hear.
If we're trying to teach truth about reality (haqq) from others, skipping (min duni) Allah, we'll fail for sure. Other are "ulema", lexicons, opinions... Exclusivelly (iyya) Rabb is teaching el-insan, but we have to come as His slaves and in shame of Him, exclusivelly.
There're a tons of evidences for your question, but I've chosen this one because we all should go back to the start, we're misguided.
When you talk about narrations, are you a Hadithist or a Quranist?
Personally I reject the Hadith.
The reason I addressed the original question is to know from Quranists what the Quranist veterans use as evidence.
The link by Wakas actually is exactly the direction I was seeking - ie the internal divine knowledge that confirms real facts that were not know for centuries after the Quran was revealed.
Thank you for your take in any case.
