Clearly Hateful postings - why?
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Cmon chill..... confused confused
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I am not mocking it. I was sharing my opinion.
Would you say these people were all mocking it too
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11372.20
What about these?
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7844.0
Yes there are verses that don't feel merciful. Just ask the amazing huruf. I ask for help in them, and reach sound conclusions thanks to their help. I don't mock anything.
I tell you again,
It's "Free Minds" NOT "CLOSED Minds"
All I wondered on was if all the quran was divine, esp after reading the above 2 threads.
You got so enraged at someone else having a differing opinion than yours. OPINION.
cough angry smh -
Some seem even not to read the Quran as a whole, just taking single words out of it and force the translation they like best ignoring basic logic and common use of language on the verses. It is easy to avoid such threads. But what is not good here, on my opinion, is to call the hadith accepting muslims in general "sectarians", to criticize someone to use the "wrong" translation of Quran or doesn't reject any traditional interpretation in general. This could veil the fact that chances are high, that Quran-only can easily turn into a sect themselves (with interpretations that are taught like facts not as an interpretation.
I don't know so many Sunni Muslims very good, but the ones I know personally I would surely not call "sectarians". I can understand to a certain degree, that one is filled with bitterness because of personal experiences with people, but it would be basically the same problem in any other culture.
I read in older threads, that there were even users here, who wanted to marry only a Quranist. One user suggested, why not marry a moderate traditional Muslim, but was ignored. Hey, there is not one percent point more chance, that such a marriage will last than with one of any other background.
Some nowadays say that the muslim countries are the most miserable in the world, because of their religion. I don't understand. I always thought it's the african countries which have the most people with a miserable life (nothing to do with religion)?Some Quranists do behave like Mullahs and Sectarians - however, to make stories of chinese whispers into a religion is wrong. Thats is why we have Quran-alone ideas here.
The Hadithists have a 101 websites they can discuss their stories on.
Only racists and drone controllers along with soldier boys say "Muslim" countries are bad - thats because they are generalizing.
Take France - full of Terrorism. What about the US with Trump - very miserable.... And I havent even got started yet.
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I am not mocking it. I was sharing my opinion.
Would you say these people were all mocking it too
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11372.20
What about these?
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7844.0
Yes there are verses that don't feel merciful. Just ask the amazing huruf. I ask for help in them, and reach sound conclusions thanks to their help. I don't mock anything.
I tell you again,
It's "Free Minds" NOT "CLOSED Minds"
All I wondered on was if all the quran was divine, esp after reading the above 2 threads.
You got so enraged at someone else having a differing opinion than yours. OPINION.
cough angry smhGood bye and good luck with your new stories....
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I am getting upset at your last statement though.
I live in a very poor muslim sharia country.
Acid attacks, gang rapes, child marriages, wife beating, honour killing, terrorism etc etc you name it.
Whenever I tell muslims, let's change this, I get the exact same response "it's worse in other countries!"
End of convo. No drive to end the suffering. Oh well...I just say this to the people
1311 Allah will not change a nation unless they change themselves.
People must stop denying the truth. Yes west is bad. Yes jews plan. Yes they're are conspiracies to ruin us. But... that doesn't mean we are zero at fault at well. Ofc muslim countries are bad, they should accept responsibility as well. Maybe then we can progress inshallah
Anyway quite apathetic.
I want to cry when I think of my muslim country.
But slowly...I feel like people are realising that they need to change themselves. Yes, I dream and hope for it.muscle muscle
1311 Allah will not change a nation unless they change themselves.
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Bye.
Too bad close minders dwell among free minders.
It never hurts to listen to what others say. I remember as a sunni when someone told me of quranism I was like WHAT? such a blasphemous thing. ...I had to take that arrogance layer off....open my eyes...open my MIND. And made it free. Only then I was guided. By listening and respecting what others had to say.
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P.s
For iftaar none of you have water make sure!!!
Water has 3 jinn in it!
2 hydrojinn and 1 oxyjinn
rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Anyway, I wonder, are the moderators ok with these posts that are against the Quran or Muslims or Islam?
Or is this an accepted strategy to drive more traffic through the portal.
hahahahaha 'strategy'. When in doubt, propagate a conspiracy, amirite? The mods have different stances on stuff, you'd be hard pressed to find three who agree on issues. Most of us are too busy to read everything. Also, we are very much against censorship. I agree that intellectual discourse is the best way but tbh i am really getting sick and tired of hearing all the violent acts in the world. What is my first reaction? pls dont be a Muslim, pls don't be a Muslim, and guess what? it's almost always someone who was a Muslim. So I do get it, in a way, but I don't think militant anti-Sunnism is the best course of action, either. I don't think we should try to alienate Sunnis, but from an ex-Sunni standpoint, i do understand how one would be frustrated at the world.
At any rate, if you think a post violates the rules, best course of action is to report the violation.
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Hi Ed,
I would say that uncivil behaviour and tyrannical beliefs are not at all unique to this forum, they are found in all walks of life.
Although the spirit of the Quran is such that it exhorts the values of patience and liberality, there are those who read the verses relating to said values but the message of those verses does not register in their minds.
As far as I can see, there are two main factors that contribute to uncivil behaviour and the expression of tyrannical beliefs
• Dogmatism. This is the natural product of ignorance; it is the absolute self-assurance in one's mind that there cannot be another version of the truth to that which one currently holds in one's mind. This absolute self-assurance can only come about, as far as I can see, from the poverty of knowledge.
• Egocentrism. This is an ongoing battle within all of our selves; it is not restricted only to the ignorant, but can also overcome the learned. With that said, uncivil behaviour and tyrannical beliefs are only made worse, in my opinion, when egocentrism is married to a mind impoverished of knowledge.
With all that being said, I strongly believe that there are two imperatives of responsible debate, which I have previously mentioned a few times on this forum
• Decorum. The adherence to universally accepted behavioural parameters among strangers (which is what we are) is a given. Notwithstanding this, each one of us has the freedom to insult each other, however, be advised that this will do nothing to strengthen your argument and will probably diminish your respectability in the eyes of others.
• Rationale. How can a truth be validated but for the presentation of proof in support of the proposition? And how can the reader arrive to said truth but for the exposition of the course in which one's logic does run? Again, notwithstanding this, you can express an opinion all day long, however, those whose minds operate on the basis of sound rationale will pay you no heed and, alas, your words are air.
If neither decorum nor rationale are acknowledged as imperative operators in the objective pursuit of truth, then two implications arise
• The first is that debate cannot continue if propositions are readily imposed as objective truths with no care for reason or for evidence.
• The second is that it will be incumbent upon the protagonist, in my view, to desist for his own sake; perchance he alienates those to whom he so eagerly appeals, on account of his unrefined language and his unseemly disposition.
As regards the moderation of posts, if the posts do not contravene the forum rules, then the author reserves the right to free expression. If the posts are in contravention, then, in theory, they should be moderated.
Forum Rules https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0
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I have always been very happy living my life as a Muslim on the fringe.
I had already had some fruitful discussions with some very humble Quran-only Muslims before stumbling upon Free Minds.
Now, I read numerous posts by posters here, who seem to have a clear aversion to the Quran or to Islam or to "Muslim" countries - one even said that all "Muslim" countries are in hell.
This kind of a posting would have been flagged by even non-Muslim posters as being hateful or wrong.
Because we stand for free speech?
This isn't a full on Islamic forum though. Everyone is welcomed here. So sometimes you will come across some of those who have problem with Quran.How non-Muslims will treat these posts should not be our business. We aren't here to be clones of some other groups.
Anyway, I wonder, are the moderators ok with these posts that are against the Quran or Muslims or Islam?
Or is this an accepted strategy to drive more traffic through the portal.
For me this is very serious, because I would like to learn from interacting with those who are Quran-only Muslims.
But can you see the sign? The country of the forum owner has been thrashed many times by a few Quran haters. He remains quiet. No one is abruptly asking to ban the haters. One hater keeps coming here to tell us we are sectarians, we worship the Quran, etc and then preaching us the "good things" which he himself does not adhere to. Majority of the monotheists here just wanted a discussion over it. They didn't go around calling for a ban on him. By this time, he would have been banned and forgotten at other forums. Can you see the sign? )
My job here is not to try and find out if hateful posters are full of sectarian hatred and pretending to be Quran-only Muslims, or evangelicals or zionists are here because they want to do a bit of routine subversion.
It seems there seems to be alot of authentic curiosity but also alot of subversion going on.......
Salam
EdAll countries coming in the news are always criticized here. It doesn't matter if it is the US, Israel, UK or Russia. Why leave out the Muslim nations?
In my view, this forum is unique.
Its strength lies in being open to a wide variety of views no matter how thorny they are.
It is refreshing to see people making long posts which is something not common at other forums. I mean just take a look at councils of ex muslims or sunni forum. They always have "one liners" wrapped in group think. A challenger there usually gets banned or limited (saw how they treated our bigmo).
We have to be open to criticism. I welcome yours. Just avoid threads you don't like or just debunk what is posted to separate oil from water.
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hahahahaha 'strategy'.
oooops - looks like a nerve has been touched. And where a nerve is touched...... one just needs to dig a little deeper to uncover the truth...
Before you mock the freedom of my speech (dare I say, ironically), please learn from other moderators that the hateful poster has been put on a watch list - as I was notified.
I have also seen someone block a poster who used the Quran to spread hate - by deriding the fact that an ant could communicate and then he continued to mocked as to who could believe in these stories.....
You should really try to get your facts straight before claiming that someone merely has a problem with the Quran when they have tried to use the Quran to claim that it states that muslim countries are in hell.
When a terror action is committed you have stated that you wish it is not a Muslim?
Wow - that's what I call conditioning. You are assuming that terrorist actions are isolated actions and that the people who have learning difficulties who commit hose atrocities believe in the Quran.
The reality is that the Western governments use those terrorists to keep Muslim countries in a state of permanent backwardness - how else do you explain the US funding Saudi Arabia?
So my take on it is - what a bunch of Godless and Crusading devils - the lot of them - the Hadithists like Saudi family and the US and its allies who call the Middle East - hell - and then murder people to plant Europeans on a piece of the Arabian peninsula.I leave you to your own subjective understanding.
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Hi Ed,
I would say that uncivil behaviour and tyrannical beliefs are not at all unique to this forum, they are found in all walks of life.
Although the spirit of the Quran is such that it exhorts the values of patience and liberality, there are those who read the verses relating to said values but the message of those verses does not register in their minds.
As far as I can see, there are two main factors that contribute to uncivil behaviour and the expression of tyrannical beliefs
• Dogmatism. This is the natural product of ignorance; it is the absolute self-assurance in one's mind that there cannot be another version of the truth to that which one currently holds in one's mind. This absolute self-assurance can only come about, as far as I can see, from the poverty of knowledge.
• Egocentrism. This is an ongoing battle within all of our selves; it is not restricted only to the ignorant, but can also overcome the learned. With that said, uncivil behaviour and tyrannical beliefs are only made worse, in my opinion, when egocentrism is married to a mind impoverished of knowledge.
With all that being said, I strongly believe that there are two imperatives of responsible debate, which I have previously mentioned a few times on this forum
• Decorum. The adherence to universally accepted behavioural parameters among strangers (which is what we are) is a given. Notwithstanding this, each one of us has the freedom to insult each other, however, be advised that this will do nothing to strengthen your argument and will probably diminish your respectability in the eyes of others.
• Rationale. How can a truth be validated but for the presentation of proof in support of the proposition? And how can the reader arrive to said truth but for the exposition of the course in which one's logic does run? Again, notwithstanding this, you can express an opinion all day long, however, those whose minds operate on the basis of sound rationale will pay you no heed and, alas, your words are air.
If neither decorum nor rationale are acknowledged as imperative operators in the objective pursuit of truth, then two implications arise
• The first is that debate cannot continue if propositions are readily imposed as objective truths with no care for reason or for evidence.
• The second is that it will be incumbent upon the protagonist, in my view, to desist for his own sake; perchance he alienates those to whom he so eagerly appeals, on account of his unrefined language and his unseemly disposition.
As regards the moderation of posts, if the posts do not contravene the forum rules, then the author reserves the right to free expression. If the posts are in contravention, then, in theory, they should be moderated.
Forum Rules https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0
Hi uq,
I have not reported anyone for uncivil behavior - my reporting of the individual was based on his claim that Muslims lands are in hell.
Another administrator put him on a watch list and informed me. You will need to check that with other moderators.
You have spoken about Dogmatism and Egocentricism. But where one draws the line on hate speech is actually different and as such my reporting of the individual in question was related to hate speech.
There are other users who post absurd and insidious claims - and I will either ignore them or challenge them on the basis of logic. But one thing that I feel is not right is for those exchanges to deteriorate into personal insults like I don't like you (only joking) as one stereotypical poster retorted based on my views.... Nevertheless I will point out their lack of manners and logic but I do not see the point in reporting them but only commenting on their ideas and what I make of their stories.
I am just a little surprised that two moderators feel the need to join in chorum and up on me for pointing out these matters while not even checking the facts about the poster about whom I made the report.
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Because we stand for free speech?
This isn't a full on Islamic forum though. Everyone is welcomed here. So sometimes you will come across some of those who have problem with Quran.How non-Muslims will treat these posts should not be our business. We aren't here to be clones of some other groups.
But can you see the sign? The country of the forum owner has been thrashed many times by a few Quran haters. He remains quiet. No one is abruptly asking to ban the haters. One hater keeps coming here to tell us we are sectarians, we worship the Quran, etc and then preaching us the "good things" which he himself does not adhere to. Majority of the monotheists here just wanted a discussion over it. They didn't go around calling for a ban on him. By this time, he would have been banned and forgotten at other forums. Can you see the sign?
All countries coming in the news are always criticized here. It doesn't matter if it is the US, Israel, UK or Russia. Why leave out the Muslim nations?
In my view, this forum is unique.
Its strength lies in being open to a wide variety of views no matter how thorny they are.
It is refreshing to see people making long posts which is something not common at other forums. I mean just take a look at councils of ex muslims or sunni forum. They always have "one liners" wrapped in group think. A challenger there usually gets banned or limited (saw how they treated our bigmo).
We have to be open to criticism. I welcome yours. Just avoid threads you don't like or just debunk what is posted to separate oil from water.
Wow..... Are we on the same planet?
Do you see hate speech as free speech?
More than happy to debate you once you understand the context of my posting and the posting.
There is really no need to patronize others with the free speech meme. There is not such thing as free speech. Thats why the leader of free speech, the USA drops bombs on people who they disagree with (as long as they are non-white).
Over to you...
Can you see the shape?
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Wow..... Are we on the same planet?
Do you see hate speech as free speech?
I surely don't know your definition of hate speech.
More than happy to debate you once you understand the context of my posting and the posting.
There is really no need to patronize others with the free speech meme. There is not such thing as free speech.
Outside maybe not. In Islam, yes and we have to abide by it if we are truly wanting to follow the Quran.
And be patient over what they say and avoid them with gracious avoidance.7310
And when you see those who engage in discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.668
And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, "For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant."2855
Thats why the leader of free speech, the USA drops bombs on people who they disagree with (as long as they are non-white).
Over to you...
Can you see the shape?
Some among the bombed people hate nonwhites too. Unfortunately, US constitution does not include foreign policy
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Over time I have seen some posters come from "traditional" understandings to much firmer understandings. Logic and cool presentation, especially over time and by multiple people, tend to have the effect of inviting...and even if the original poster has a hardened heart, other viewers and lurkers may listen to the best of what is being said and embrace it.
There is no need to "shout down" a posting. Truth and logic go far--and to counter hate with hate is giving somebody exactly what they expect--and it plays into the hands of hateful people. It is as easy to take a rude posting at face value as it is to respect the integrity of a known perjurer. Consider 4133-34
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to God, and does good works, and says "I am one of those who have submitted."
4134 Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
Of course, sometimes posters do go too far--and there is an ignore user option for that.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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I can see where Ed is coming from which is an issue I've raised on the forum on multiple occasions The capacity of some to mostly see things in black and white and then to use that as justification to interpret and judge collectively willy nilly. Whether the judging or interpretation comes first is interesting at times. Would I call it hate speech? Sure, sometimes it is. That's why more context is needed rather than just an isolated stupid opinion which as other posters have mentioned can only happen with more dialogue. Most of the times if the discourse is civil, it is usually beneficial. If it isn't, it's still beneficial to go through the motions in a way that others can learn from the exchange. If it happens consistently is when other avenues are considered. Tbh, these sorts of concepts and/or opinions are so endemic in certain groups/people that it's not even up for debate, it's like a commonly accepted truth of some sort...any dissent about it usually serves to either harden the shell or make the person think the ones who dare not see it or argue about it are coming from a a totally different planet.
When a terror action is committed you have stated that you wish it is not a Muslim?
Wow - that's what I call conditioning. You are assuming that terrorist actions are isolated actions and that the people who have learning difficulties who commit hose atrocities believe in the Quran.
The reality is that the Western governments use those terrorists to keep Muslim countries in a state of permanent backwardness - how else do you explain the US funding Saudi Arabia?
So my take on it is - what a bunch of Godless and Crusading devils - the lot of them - the Hadithists like Saudi family and the US and its allies who call the Middle East - hell - and then murder people to plant Europeans on a piece of the Arabian peninsula.I leave you to your own subjective understanding.
If after an event such as a terrorist attack a simple thing as going to the grocery store even is fraught with untold danger, should we write down sticky notes suggesting we aren't the ones responsible in bright colors, well defined fonts and slap them onto our coats? Geopolitical actions cause this to happen! I'm just an innocent person of color? Perhaps you haven't experienced that feeling of intense fear or discomfort for long stretches at a time wondering if you should even leave the house? Holding an opinion that it was due to xyz does absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things like making that walk and interacting with others who are judging you and not very kindly I may add. You may even need to take a rain coat to deflect some spitting on occasion and/or headphones to tune out the comments headed your way especially if you're using public transport. I wouldn't recommend a back pack for carrying the groceries home in since that just may give the wrong impression. I fail to see how conditioning has anything to do with this, my opinions or yours regarding why it happens or how have nothing to do with the way I'm going to be treated because of the way I look. That's why I, along with others, dread any of these events especially if you're living in a country where the majority isn't Muslim. Until the world changes and unicorns frolic in the fields, we will have to deal with this by wishing that it wasn't 'us'. Some even celebrate by sighs of relief if it isn't 'us'. It used to be enough to just hope it wasn't your countryman but that wasn't very empathetic and now decades later, it doesn't matter because no matter where you're from if you check the visual boxes, thou shalt be judged with a beam to the face, or eye.
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free my boy speech he did nothing wrong.
I surely don't know your definition of hate speech.
A meme, duh.
Any speech that doesn't fit our worldview, i guess. Insulting language towards specific people isn't allowed anyway so i don't really get what the point is.
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I surely don't know your definition of hate speech.
Outside maybe not. In Islam, yes and we have to abide by it if we are truly wanting to follow the Quran.
And be patient over what they say and avoid them with gracious avoidance.7310
And when you see those who engage in discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.668
And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, "For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant."2855
Some among the bombed people hate nonwhites too. Unfortunately, US constitution does not include foreign policy
I do not have a definition of hate speech. I only use the one that the civilized international community use from a legal perspective.
I have used this definition to even take issue with people in government in the UK and been vindicated.What I believe is in mutual respect and when people use hatred to encite further hatred and violence I will ALWAYS challenge it irrespective of the colour or religion or gender of a person and irrespective of whether I believe the person is in my "group" or not.
Lets not con ourselves and say we are "in Islam" - we are in the real outside world and deal with real outside variables - Even if someone encites hate on a web portal or even Twitter it can now be legally prosecuted - even if the poster mistakenly thinks that anonymity works - even this poster will realize how real the world of Twitter is.
Debate is the whole reason we are here, but if you look at the posts of some of the unintelligent haters (on both sides) since the Manchester attacks, you will see some truly disgusting hate speech and threats to kill - one of such threats in the past led to the murder of a UK MP - so please don't try and believe that we are not in the real lowly world.
If the actual people whose relatives are bombed hate the bombers - do you find this difficult to believe?
I am not justifying hate here, but you seem to be using an extreme example.
What about all the US racists who hate people for no reason other than the reason that they would like to define "race" as a function of the colour of someone's skin?Ed
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I can see where Ed is coming from which is an issue I've raised on the forum on multiple occasions The capacity of some to mostly see things in black and white and then to use that as justification to interpret and judge collectively willy nilly. Whether the judging or interpretation comes first is interesting at times. Would I call it hate speech? Sure, sometimes it is. That's why more context is needed rather than just an isolated stupid opinion which as other posters have mentioned can only happen with more dialogue. Most of the times if the discourse is civil, it is usually beneficial. If it isn't, it's still beneficial to go through the motions in a way that others can learn from the exchange. If it happens consistently is when other avenues are considered. Tbh, these sorts of concepts and/or opinions are so endemic in certain groups/people that it's not even up for debate, it's like a commonly accepted truth of some sort...any dissent about it usually serves to either harden the shell or make the person think the ones who dare not see it or argue about it are coming from a a totally different planet.
If after an event such as a terrorist attack a simple thing as going to the grocery store even is fraught with untold danger, should we write down sticky notes suggesting we aren't the ones responsible in bright colors, well defined fonts and slap them onto our coats? Geopolitical actions cause this to happen! I'm just an innocent person of color? Perhaps you haven't experienced that feeling of intense fear or discomfort for long stretches at a time wondering if you should even leave the house? Holding an opinion that it was due to xyz does absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things like making that walk and interacting with others who are judging you and not very kindly I may add. You may even need to take a rain coat to deflect some spitting on occasion and/or headphones to tune out the comments headed your way especially if you're using public transport. I wouldn't recommend a back pack for carrying the groceries home in since that just may give the wrong impression. I fail to see how conditioning has anything to do with this, my opinions or yours regarding why it happens or how have nothing to do with the way I'm going to be treated because of the way I look. That's why I, along with others, dread any of these events especially if you're living in a country where the majority isn't Muslim. Until the world changes and unicorns frolic in the fields, we will have to deal with this by wishing that it wasn't 'us'. Some even celebrate by sighs of relief if it isn't 'us'. It used to be enough to just hope it wasn't your countryman but that wasn't very empathetic and now decades later, it doesn't matter because no matter where you're from if you check the visual boxes, thou shalt be judged with a beam to the face, or eye.Thanks savage_carrot,
You have used wise and pertinent words that echo what I have seen and how I also feel on this issue.
I agree that some posters do not necessarily need to be banned but at least told to realize that they are being hateful or using hate precursors.
My own family spans two cultures, colours and religions - so, somewhat annoyingly I always find myself seeing the hate from at least both sides if not all sides and defending all sides.
Ed