If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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Nothing is independent of thought, nothing!
Justice is the exercise of authority in vindication of right by assigning reward or punishment. That is not something worth valuing.
The ?jural sphere? is to be distinguished from the ?moral sphere?
The moral sphere is the whole scope of ethics and the science of ethical conduct.
Ethics = a system of moral principles
The jural sphere is constructed legal fictions that are subjected as legal sanctions upon the dominated.
Jural = the exercise of authority in vindication (avenging) of granted right by assigning reward or punishment.What you should be focused on is not justice but virtues.
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Brother,
I am a religious nut according to what I understand from your views. I understand that.But according to what I perceive ,I am on a journey of trial and improvement.
One thing I am certain about is I have been created, like all other creations by a Creator. The origin of all that exist.
Now having said that,I am still learning and trying to find out the hows and whys of the creation.Now,if this is frustrating to you, you can call me "silly logic". I do not mind .
I also understand your frustration with those that are not on your wavelength . That does not mean you should stop trying to push your point of view. Only I pass for now.
Nevertheless brother,I command you for your stand.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
OK, what is the reasoned logic that you have established certainty you have been created by an entity you label a god, as i would argue you are a fractal expansion, growing to higher states of consciousness.
i am open to new ideas and let me consider your arguement.
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No worries.
The best argument is the message" Qoran".
For me, Arabic has not changed that much since Qoran came to change the meaning of the basic message .According to my study of Qoran,there is a creator,there is accountability and there is justice.
There is also a free choice of thoughts/actions for each individual.
I respect yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
The translations of the Qur?an are very corrupted, even the Arabic text is altered in various ways from the original, if the oldest text is compared to a modern one, my reasoning is, I view the Qur'an as a guide to understanding this perception, a guide to how to live (anarchic community), as the original text was created using the trivium, which remained a companion book right up until the Vatican finished off Islam around a 1000 years ago, so if we do the same as those men and women that worked to determine the guide, we examine the perceptual reality using reason, we should be able to determine the original guide once more. If the original meanings of the Qur?an are determined, as people like Badar are working towards, then it would be easier, however it is very likely that the vast majority of so called Muslims would reject the true and original Qur'an out of hand, as they want a religion.
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Imagine a infinite pure consciousness pouring from nothingness endlessly, within a singular, infinitely repeating, spinning moment, without any substance, no material existence of any kind, no quantity of space or energy; not an entity because only the consciousness exists, and to be an entity would require something other, something distinct from something else, so consciousness is always an entirety.
You cannot imagine what you have just described, or, to be precice, you have listed a number of words which together seem as if you have described phenomenon of certain characteristics or the lack of them thereof, but that is clearly beyond your personal experience and imagination.
If you can personally expand your consciousness to that 'endless' extent that you claim, then can your 'mind expansion' also influence others? If not the logical answer would be that it is subjective to your own personal perception and has no power outside of it, and also it has no experience which could be possibly mutually shared.
If yes, what about your economic code theory to elliminate hierarchy? Make it so sound that people will understand it, but before I'd suggest to actually post it, instead of talking. Why post one hateful thread after another when you can in fact do something productive for society? As I said, if your theory is not just another among typical idealists ideas which are countless, I will read it through, and I will support it. But as for now all you do is philosophize about nothingness, which in fact there IS, but within one's personal perception, there are no logical implemenations of nothingness outside of one's own thought, and thought does not equal experience.
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Peace Makaveli,
You influence other minds through interaction, just as we are interacting here, we debate, we communicate, we interact, and so we may alter how others perceive certain things.
You experience thought, therefore how can thought be outside of experience?
I can post the anarchic models, but I thought it unlikely anyone would read them, it would be an extensive amount of information.
Have I posted a hateful threads?
I post what I believe to be the truth, is the truth hateful?
I wish to remove false perceptions not to be hateful, that you perceive it as hateful is the question?
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It was suggested i create a book, with all the information presented, but I was worried the investment would be yet another loss, in both my time and printing costs, a printed book is better than an e-book, printed books are easier to reference, read and digest, anyway I'm considering the idea.
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Peace Makaveli,
You influence other minds through interaction, just as we are interacting here, we debate, we communicate, we interact, and so we may alter how others perceive certain things.
Salaam. We debate on various topics but the notion of god or gods was there since forever, judging from Epic of Gilgamesh. And while different cultures percieved gods differently common understanding of incomprehensible deity was there at one form or another, almost unconsciously (I myself do not know when exactly was I introduced to the concept of God as portrayed in my culture, but believe very early, not sure) do people of different beliefs, cultures, nations and psychotypes accept God as either existing or non-existing deity, which outside of our recognition or the lack of recogntion still remains incomprehensible to our mind.
You experience thought, therefore how can thought be outside of experience?
You cannot be sure that your thoughts, especially spontaneous thoughts, are of personal and genuine experience, which is influenced by you as a conscious being, or if they have external nature.
I can post the anarchic models, but I thought it unlikely anyone would read them, it would be an extensive amount of information.
What matters is that providing that you are capable of expanding your consciouness to high degree so that it can in fact turn the minds of others upside down and spark emotions, feelings and understandings in them, then I see no point in hiding what you have in your mind. Some people know how to be convincing, others seem to lack this talent.
Have I posted a hateful threads?
You just posted a useless thread on how Qur'an is corrupted. Thought to drop a reply at first glance, but removed my comment before posting, see no point. And I am not saying it is hateful because you said the book is corrupted and not genuine, but you provided virtually no arguments in your favor, which to me looks like it is a useless topic made merely to start another drama. That is why I adviced you to do something productive, such as post your whatever there is theory. Unless MOF's project is proved genuine in terms of his old Arabic research, which in fact is a topic of interest and I personally will keep an eye on the updates, there is no objective logic in saying something is corrupted just because someone told so, I doubt you have personally made substantial research in the field to claim so, at least. Translations are surely lies and the product of clergy or personal ideas of translators, but claiming about the language as a whole it is quite a brave claim to make.
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It was suggested i create a book, with all the information presented, but I was worried the investment would be yet another loss, in both my time and printing costs, a printed book is better than an e-book, printed books are easier to reference, read and digest, anyway I'm considering the idea.
Who cares about printing? You write a theory on financial structure which is the CODE as you claim. Why not make it .pdf and .ppt respectively, who needs paper these days /
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I could make a pdf, where would i post it, i created a website and it was attacked to destruction with the information.
As for the thread on the Qur?an, I was interested to know why, as it is fairly plain to most that the Qur?ans translations are corrupted, and a simple examination of the oldest Qur?an compared to a modern one shows differences, as to why it is repeatedly relied upon as a reliable reference, when clearly it is not reliable. Seems a reasonable question, I am genuinely interested in the reasoning behind the view it is reliable?
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For example The inheritance, Sunni Muslims claim that it's 100% fair, as the son/uncle/grandfather are responsible (also financially) for the daughter after her father dies. However, many members here would disagree due to unfairness, control of women, etc...
Peace, this thread is all over the place; daughter gets 1/2 and son/s get remaining 1/2 while uncle gets nothing.
As for the thread on the Qur?an, I was interested to know why, as it is fairly plain to most that the Qur?ans translations are corrupted, and a simple examination of the oldest Qur?an compared to a modern one shows differences, as to why it is repeatedly relied upon as a reliable reference, when clearly it is not reliable. Seems a reasonable question, I am genuinely interested in the reasoning behind the view it is reliable?
What differences besides overuse of alif in some words and initials not counted as separate verses?
Here's one of oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165 ch17v36 - ch36v55 (20 chapters ~25% of book).
download manuscript here http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
http//217.218.67.233/photo/20141123/387194_quran-sample%20.jpg
The photo shows taking a sample and using carbon-14 dating on three samples of the manuscript parchment, the researchers concluded that it was more than 95.5% likely to have originated in the period 649-675 CE.
Please show key differences or let me know if you like to see any particular page?
https//s26.postimg.org/kgu75hvop/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch17v35-46.jpg
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Peace Cerberus,
the very first step is to recognize your true nature, from that you can develop the skill of reasoning, no one can reason without learning the skill, the easiest method is to use the trivium, reasoning is the foundational tool to establish belief, for example does any evidence at all exist to support the idea of a god entity, the answer is always no, reason would then ask if no god what is the nature of reality.
I do not wish to come across aggressively or arrogantly, if I do it is not intentional, I am not trying to be abusive, I am simply trying to help.
The second thing to master the self is to understand and practice virtues, virtues used to be know by certain cultures but religions and hierarchy (because hierarchy removes community) remove virtues, if you master virtues you create a state of innocence of the self, and this is the goal.
I believe we have some common ground, you understand many things correctly already.
There is the material self, the one from this world, and that desires this world. The body with all its complexity and sophistication. And there is the spiritual self, this one isn't obvious and it's commonly called the soul. However this one is really not obvious and the only way to have a feel of it is by reflecting on yourself and actions.
In my experience the only way that I could affirm with no doubt this "duality" of existence is by reflecting on my actions and thoughts, sincerely, with a clear heart, only to find that there is something still and subtle, incorruptible, peaceful, and steadfast to the truth, that tells me, whenever I listen, that "This is right" and "that is wrong". This is what I refer to as Consciousness, the conscience, I believe this one exist within all being, though most completely ignoring it, because of the influence of the "other self".
So why am I doing this or that ? What drives me to want this or that ? This led me to recognize the material self and all that it desires. Most are completely slaves to it. And I understand because I was born with it and part of my goal is to free myself. Free myself and see what happens, I'm quite curious. This journey seems worth it.
So my "religion" is pretty simple, follow the conscience and try not to compromise.Notice I haven't spoken of a god or anything, but I know god is behind the Consciousness.
Stories like the one of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil hints that we are not like other creatures and that we have something that they don't have, perhaps the most valuable thing in our creation is that conscience we have. The spirit of God.This is your 2 points according to my experience and knowledge up until today.
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Peace Cerberus,
the body is a perceptual form just like everything else, if that perception is damaged the consciousness adjusts its perception to accommodate that damage, it is all linked to belief.
In truth the body is no more real than anything else, however thought is the only real there is, therefore thought is real.
All the perceived reality is sophisticated and complex, but this is a low density of perception, we experience in this perception a tiny percentage of the available patterns of energy (thought) that mostly pass unnoticed around us.
It is very easy to know what is good and what is damaging if you understand virtue, the real practice of Muslims would have been the practice of innate virtues, the actions make the Muslim not the words, and through actions we develop the self.
We can master the actions of virtue and establish a state of innocence.
Recognize the perceptual and the conscious, that is the realisation.
In the past the tree of life was anarchy and the tree of death hierarchy, not good and evil, evil and good can always be subjective, and what may be good for one, or a group may in turn be very very bad for others, this is why the anarchic community is the foundation, as all must be accountable for their actions, no sovereigns, politicians, billionaires, bankers, or whatever, should be above account as is the case presently, all are equal in account.
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Peace Cerberus,
the body is a perceptual form just like everything else, if that perception is damaged the consciousness adjusts its perception to accommodate that damage, it is all linked to belief.
In truth the body is no more real than anything else, however thought is the only real there is, therefore thought is real.
All the perceived reality is sophisticated and complex, but this is a low density of perception, we experience in this perception a tiny percentage of the available patterns of energy (thought) that mostly pass unnoticed around us.
It is very easy to know what is good and what is damaging if you understand virtue, the real practice of Muslims would have been the practice of innate virtues, the actions make the Muslim not the words, and through actions we develop the self.
We can master the actions of virtue and establish a state of innocence.
Recognize the perceptual and the conscious, that is the realisation.
In the past the tree of life was anarchy and the tree of death hierarchy, not good and evil, evil and good can always be subjective, and what may be good for one, or a group may in turn be very very bad for others, this is why the anarchic community is the foundation, as all must be accountable for their actions, no sovereigns, politicians, billionaires, bankers, or whatever, should be above account as is the case presently, all are equal in account.
Do not forget to teach them our minds are attached to an animal and its instincts are which causes us to not function perfectly when they influence our mind and the world provides stimulus for that. Real or imagined, it has a distinct effect on the mind.
You must focus on the essential and skip the non-essential, if you are going to teach people spiritual depth. The above is the most important teaching there is to begin with.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Evil is subjective, yes. But the Semitic Zalam word means "ignorant/dark/dim-witted" in the place of evil. What is evil is deeds which have no intelligence in them, being merely done due to weakness of the mind. Even sinning is evil because it is done in ignorance. Evil is something deconstructing, causing a retardation, but it is perhaps better to use the word bad.
Good is the straight opposite, it is intelligence or being conscious. Good is development, anything which leads to mental development is good.
So speak of good versus bad instead and equal them to development or construction versus retardation or deconstruction/demolition.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
There is the material self, the one from this world, and that desires this world. The body with all its complexity and sophistication. And there is the spiritual self, this one isn't obvious and it's commonly called the soul. However this one is really not obvious and the only way to have a feel of it is by reflecting on yourself and actions.
In my experience the only way that I could affirm with no doubt this "duality" of existence is by reflecting on my actions and thoughts, sincerely, with a clear heart, only to find that there is something still and subtle, incorruptible, peaceful, and steadfast to the truth, that tells me, whenever I listen, that "This is right" and "that is wrong". This is what I refer to as Consciousness, the conscience, I believe this one exist within all being, though most completely ignoring it, because of the influence of the "other self".
So why am I doing this or that ? What drives me to want this or that ? This led me to recognize the material self and all that it desires. Most are completely slaves to it. And I understand because I was born with it and part of my goal is to free myself. Free myself and see what happens, I'm quite curious. This journey seems worth it.
So my "religion" is pretty simple, follow the conscience and try not to compromise.Notice I haven't spoken of a god or anything, but I know god is behind the Consciousness.
Stories like the one of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil hints that we are not like other creatures and that we have something that they don't have, perhaps the most valuable thing in our creation is that conscience we have. The spirit of God.This is your 2 points according to my experience and knowledge up until today.
Your knowledge is growing, Cerberus and positively affects your development. Congratulations.
Discover God is not beyond your self and you have let go of the Pagan god delusion too, and belittling yourself and your ability is only hurting yourself. Believe that you can instead and have faith.
Keep on the right track. Thumbs up.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Peace Man of faith, yes you are right we are invested in the perception of the body, and all the related natures of that perception.
Evil is a consciously (intentional) morally corrupt action, but my point was not about good or evil, it was about the practice of innate virtues, these are no longer commonly pursued, and they would be fundamental to good without any concern to ponder or deliberate, in virtue you are made innocent, you need not trouble about any thing in action you do, if you have developed the practice of virtues.
People seem to be struggling to over come the animal nature as you say, that is because they have not developed the practice of virtues and they are not within a community, being in an anarchic community makes mastery of the self easy, although you couldn?t have any other type of true community, as community means common unity, and dichotomously you have hierarchical society which means division into ranks, you can therefore not have hierarchical community as their is no common unity you?re divided, one is unity the other division.
Strangely no one is ever interested to know what innate virtues are?