CLOSING, ANALYSIS, and the SURPRISE NOTE
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Hi all,
I don't think that there is anything wrong with greeting someone in the normal way in English - I know the Koran says answer with an equal or better greeting - but there is nothing at all negative in 'dear'.
dear
adj. dear?er, dear?est-
Loved and cherished my dearest friend.
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Greatly valued; precious lost everything dear to them.
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Highly esteemed or regarded. Used in direct address, especially in salutations Dear Lee Dawson.
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Earnest; ardent ?This good man was a dear lover and constant practicer of angling? (Izaak Walton).
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Obsolete. Noble; worthy.
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Heartfelt It is my dearest wish.
n.
- One that is greatly loved.
- An endearing, lovable, or kind person.
adv.
- With fondness; affectionately.
So I think pedantry is not called for. Undue attention to these formal rules with ostentation is also not a very admirable thing.
Whether it be 'peace' or 'dear' each is acceptable in my opinion.
Regards.
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Peace be upon you Edip,
You are misinterpreting the verses. Abraham never told them what he would do specifically or exactly. He told them that he would do a TRICK, TRAP, or A PLAN against their idols. The word KaYD, as you want us to believe, does not mean destroy, smash, break. Most likely they never expected him to break them; they expected something silly, as some people are expecting something silly from my "prophecy"!
Yes, the translation I used was off on the word Kayd, it correctly means "scheme/plan", but how does that change my position? Abraham told them clearly that he was going to scheme against thier idols. Yes or no?
They had no clue what he meant with it. Otherwise, they would most likely guard them day and night, imprison or banish Abraham before he fulfilled the act. You are insulting Abraham's intelligence by claiming that he told people that he was going to break their idols, risking his safety and success of his pedagoical plan.
You are insulting the FEARLESSNESS of the messengers. Musa stood before Firaun and his court and challenged the enemy face to face, now you want us to believe that Abraham should have been scared and concealed the truth? YOU want us to beleive that Abraham should fear men instead of the God? Did you not read the verse? He told them he would execute his plan WHEN THEY TURNED THIER BACKS. True, they did not know he would break them, but he told them CLEARLY he was going to scheme against them.
You are also undermining the devotion of idolworshipers to their idols; if they new exactly what Abraham was going to do, they would not sleep on his threat.
They underestimated the messenger of the God and must have took him for a joke, because he told them clearly he had a scheme for when they turned thier backs.
Besides, his people did not recall that Abraham was going to break their idols, they recalled that Abraham was talking against their idols. Recalling someone talking against something is different than recalling someone doing a particular act against something. You are confusing both.
What was the "talk" that they heard?
Abraham gave them a VAGUE warning and surprised them by morning. What I am doing with Ali Sina is very similar to that.
With a cross word puzzle? For the 19th of Feb?
As for Moses, are we required to parrot him?
We are instructed to follow the examples set for us by the messengers.
Are we limited with what Moses or another messenger did?
NO, but the God is giving us guidance to follow, that is the best method.
I do not think so. I believe that as long as the means of delivering the message does not violate a divine principle, it is fine. Otherwise, using your logic, I can site the names of 27 messengers and their delivery of God's message and accuse you of following a wrong strategy by discussing God's message via computer; since none used the computer, except the most recent messenger who you deny.
Are you serious? First of all, a computer is a means of communication, just like writing a letter as Solomon did. Second, you calim rashad is a messenger, so how would I be violating according to YOUR position? You cant have it both ways. Lastly, I don't deny ANY messenger, but you should understand that a person is only a messenger at the time they are speaking TRUTH, any other time they are just "Kyle, Edip, Rashad, etc"
None of the messengers in the Quran asked his followers to mimick them or the acts of previous messengers.
Are the messengers examples for us to follow, yes or no?
I see that we have important methodological difference. You tend to even prohibit or reject the word DEAR as a greeting. I started having a good idea about your attitude, comprehension, and position on issues.
The God gave us a greeting that is BEST, because the goal is PEACE, so we wish those whom we come in contact with a greeting of PEACE to be upon them.
I guess we would not be able to work together as a united force.
United in what? Not 19, not salaat, not hajj, not ramadan, what would we be united on?
But I would ALWAYS work with you in that which promotes good, like charity, helping faith freedom understand that "muslims" are not the proper description for terrorists, etc. Basically, I help in all that is good.
But, this does not mean we have to work against each other, eiether.
Debating is not working againt each other. I am against the creation of sects, and I am agaisnt joining with a group that hold 19 as partner to the God, wether realized or not. I say that because when I was deep in that same trial, after Layth helped me to see my error, I stepped back and looked at my posts and articles and saw that I had 19's everywhere, when I escaped that the whole message started to open up. I hope that you will see the same.
Perhaps the best strategy is not discussing anything with each other. Of course, you are free to criticize me.
My critisisms are for your philosophy, not you. If I met you today I would hug you as a friend, I respect your struggle, but I long for the day that you shed the 19 partner and use your talents to help us.
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Peace be upon you Idris and Edip,
D Idris, Edip does not know me that well D
PS Why do you think that Idolfree is not starting his mails with Bismillah, like Solomon?
Probably because I am here studying and debating, not writing letters to a Queen.
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Peace be upn you Truth,
So I think pedantry is not called for. Undue attention to these formal rules with ostentation is also not a very admirable thing.
Whether it be 'peace' or 'dear' each is acceptable in my opinion.
Thank you for your opinion. Please tell me how you understand the following statement;
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what God does not greet you with it, and they say in their minds "If only God tortures us because (of) what we say." ...
What was the greeting the God instructed us to say? We have to understand that we are supposed to be creating a CULTURE , so that it can develop righteous beings devoted to PEACE.
That is why we say "Salaam"
That is why Jews say "Shalom"
That is why Ancinet Egyptians said "Hetep"
That is why Christains say "Peace be with you, and also with you"I don't really have a problem with "Dear", but I am pointing out that you can determine a lot of things by the WHAT PEOPLE SAY.
(4730) (RK) If we will, we can expose them for you, so that you can recognize them just by looking at them. However, you can recognize them by the way they talk. GOD is fully aware of all your works.
So in conclusion, you are not under any compulsion by myself to say "Peace", but I will stick to the message of the God and continue to give the BEST greeting possible,knowing that what I say has an EFFECT, and is not meaningless.
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There are plenty of occassions I have noticed a clear favoritism to 19ers followers of false messenger Rashad Al Khalifah cult as they can get away with anything else including personal attacks.
The good which happened that Free Minds had make me a much more firm believer in God Almighty message and firm belief that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Last Prophet and Last Messenger.
The articles and posts which do idolized Rashad Al Khalifah and his faulty code 19 has driven me to much more close to Islam which btw I was drifting.
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Peace Truth,
I don't think that there is anything wrong with greeting someone in the normal way in English - I know the Koran says answer with an equal or better greeting - but there is nothing at all negative in 'dear'.
And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with a better (greeting) than it or return it; surely Allah takes account of all things.
The word rendered as greeting is HAYYA. This word means to give life. I understand this verse differently. Can anyone explain?
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The articles and posts which do idolized Rashad Al Khalifah and his faulty code 19 has driven me to much more close to Islam which btw I was drifting.
What a lousy reason to stop drifting, KGB!
Strentghening fate by looking at the fault or perceived fault of a group, to me, is one of the most ridiculous way of continuing believing in something.
Let me illustrate your pathetic argument
Let's assume, I believe that 2+3 is 7. But, I add two apples to three apples and count them and I do not get the number 7. I start drifting. Then, I learn that a fringe group believes that 2+3 is 5. I find it a faulty idea and I stop drifting. Now I believe that 2+3 is indeed 7 D
No wonder you do not get the message of 19!
Peace,
Edip -
Stupid idiotic analysis based on mockery and foolishness just like the code 19 illogical reasoning to prove it a miracle.
19ers are not the first or last enemy of the Prophet who God Almighty has commanded us to follow there were hadith writers who created doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an by including fabricated stories about goat chewing up two verses or some one named Imam Mehdi has the original Qur'an which has plenty more verses and chapters.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed messengership by calling himself better than Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and he was Jesus, Marry, Imam Mehdi, the promised hindus avtar according to me he was a mad man. Mirza had the same sologan as 19ers false Messenger Rashad Al Khalifah that he has come to unite Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus. So keep following the fase Messengers and prophets I am sure there will be plenty more coming. I am at peace following Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as commanded by God Almighty.
Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
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Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
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Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
This is just a hillarious question, since it is asked by KGB. (Do I need to tell what KGB stand for?).
Well, for myself, let me answer this question with answers that it deserves
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CIA would be much happier keeping people like in the middle east so that they could continue using you and your acts as pretext to exploit its resources.
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My organization was first funded by BAHAIS, then MOSSAD, then KGB, then CIA, and in the near future we are hoping that we will get great funding from MARS.
Peace,
Edip -
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Are you guys some CIA funded group trying to create more division among Muslims?
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
Suspicions are honest concern after reading topics where people are trying to create doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an message. This suspicion virus created by false messenger Rashad Al Khalifah to justify deleting two verses from Qur'an and to prove code 19 a miracle. This suspicions regarding Qur'an message is growing and unfortunately Free Minds are playing a big role in promoting this sick idea of corruption of the message.
It is not spying. The messages are on the open discussion forum.
Backbite. Absolutely not. I said it right on your own forum even if I say this on different forums it would not be backbite simply because I am doing this for the purpose of keping the muslims informed about this rising fitna.
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Salaam All,
One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition, wherein we begin to take sides as we can see in this thread. If indeed Islam is the way chosen for us by Allah, does it not stand on its own merit? Does Allah... or Hu's deen need champions for its cause? When we take sides in intellectual gymnastics, is that not fitna?
The structure of the Qur'an demonstrates many mathematical correspondences, the occurences of 19 being just one. Recognizing this does not make one an idolater, anymore than one who recognizes the metaphorical similarities between the Qur'an and the Matrix, both being examples of ijtahid .
Can we all not take our intellects/interpretations so seriously that it keeps us from being able to share each others understanding and experience?
Practice... makes perfect! The practice of Islam leads to Oneness and Unity, if our words and actions do not promote/lead to this result, we cannot claim to practice Islam, no matter how intellectually stunning or clever our debates/arguments/discussions may be.
Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya -
Peace be upon you Olusanya,
One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition,
I would disagree, it is when debating(hajja) turns into baseless (no proof) arguing (jidala) that causes the problem.
We CANNOT reject debating(hajja) , the God has included this in our system.
(683) And this (is) Our argument (hujjatuna), We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable.
(2197) ...wala jidala fee alhajji ...
And NO arguing in the debate...Yes, there is nothing wrong with free thinking, but we need to start putting some proof behnd the statements, I am willing to PROVE my statements about symbolism. And by that , those who witness can see how the God proves the truth throuigh His words.
We do not take a number out of all the numbers and uphold it as if no other numbers are mentioned.
Symbolism is verified in the reading.
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Peace idolfree,
I agree. Yet in this particular debate I see no end. It is obvious that you and brother Edip do not agree, yet neither seems to want to leave it alone, so time is spent on a debate that has no resolution, which makes it more of an intellectual distraction than a discussion leading towards truth.
In the first ayat you posted the debate is to demonstrate truth. I cannot agree with your use of the word debate in 2197 because I do not see the use of it in the context of the subject of the verse . I have followed the discussion between yourself and Edip, and it seems obvious to me that the two of you will not agree on this particular point , so my question is... Why continue to argue the point? You both have demonstrated your points very well, but you do not agree that what the other presents is truth.
Both of you have provided what you deem to be proofs, but you do not agree with each others proofs, so the discussion falls under the discription of baseless. Why? because by rejecting each others truth, you have rejected the base of each others points.
I have observed many of the discussions within this forum and many fall into this category, because if we do not accept the interpretations or proofs that someone offers and they do not accept ours then continuing to discuss the subject will only lead to further disagreement which, in my humble opinion, is not the goal of debate or discussion.
Many of us have become just as bad as the "traditionalists/ritualists"... meaning... we are refusing to allow individuals to reach their own understanding of Islam, considering them wrong if it is not in agreement with our way of thinking or practice. Allah is the Guide, and Hu guides each of us according to our individual constitutions, levels of understanding, determination in study, etc. As bothers and sisters who practice Islam we must allow each other to come into our own understandings, in our own time. Otherwise we are just imitators.Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanyaP.S. I think your interpretation of the symbolism in the Matrix series is profound! I saw the movies as a journey in the realization of our essential being but you took it to a whole new level. Thanks!
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Peace be upon you Olusanya,
First, thank you for demonstrating the description of one who is peacefully submissive by trying to bring unity to the discussion.
I agree. Yet in this particular debate I see no end.
Thats why we must have faith in the unseen D
Actually, I don't even think there is any further debate. We are just waiting for Feb 19th to see the prophecy. My issues were people thinking they needed to join 19.org to gain some momentum. I have given my warnings about that based on my understanding. The only other debate I was interested in was salaat, but I have no interest anymore, because Edip has no time. So I will just continue with the discussions and debates already going on in that thread.
It is obvious that you and brother Edip do not agree, yet neither seems to want to leave it alone, so time is spent on a debate that has no resolution, which makes it more of an intellectual distraction than a discussion leading towards truth.
I will discontinue right now.
In the first ayat you posted the debate is to demonstrate truth. I cannot agree with your use of the word debate in 2197 because I do not see the use of it in the context of the subject of the verse .
How do you understand the word "hajja"? I have a list somewhere on this forum of both words that are normally translated as "argue". They are "hajja" and "jidala". "Hajja" has been shown to mean "debating based on proof", where as "jidala" is "arguing with no evidence from Life(al kitaab)". I will try to find where I posted them. It was quite a while ago so the thread might be far down on the list.
I have followed the discussion between yourself and Edip, and it seems obvious to me that the two of you will not agree on this particular point , so my question is... Why continue to argue the point? You both have demonstrated your points very well, but you do not agree that what the other presents is truth.
Well, I intend to stop here, but the reason for continuing to debate, if there was proof coming from both sides, would be to see how far the others argument could stand, but I do not see any proof coming, so I have no problem stopping.
Both of you have provided what you deem to be proofs, but you do not agree with each others proofs, so the discussion falls under the discription of baseless. Why? because by rejecting each others truth, you have rejected the base of each others points.
We cannot both be presenting "truths", we both SHOULD be providing evidence, so we can get to the truth. We have to wait for Feb 19th to get the rest of Edips evidence.
I have observed many of the discussions within this forum and many fall into this category, because if we do not accept the interpretations or proofs that someone offers and they do not accept ours then continuing to discuss the subject will only lead to further disagreement which, in my humble opinion, is not the goal of debate or discussion.
I agree, debating should be fruitful, but many are just too afraid to be wrong. I hope that I have shown that I am willing to admit when I have been wrong and continue to do so.
Many of us have become just as bad as the "traditionalists/ritualists"... meaning... we are refusing to allow individuals to reach their own understanding of Islam, considering them wrong if it is not in agreement with our way of thinking or practice. Allah is the Guide, and Hu guides each of us according to our individual constitutions, levels of understanding, determination in study, etc. As bothers and sisters who practice Islam we must allow each other to come into our own understandings, in our own time. Otherwise we are just imitators.
I guess we have a difference of opinion on "hajja"(debating). There are levels of understanding, those that are on higher levels must not conceal what was inspired to them. WHat is our purpose here if not to study and debate? Again , I liken it to martial arts, you have to practice your craft.
I think the issue might be HOW LONG do we debate, because Musa certainly debated the magicians, Abraham certainly debated his fathers traditions, etc.
Noah debated wrong (called to the God) day and night in secret and public. Unless it is though that my position is wrong, then I don't see where I error.
P.S. I think your interpretation of the symbolism in the Matrix series is profound! I saw the movies as a journey in the realization of our essential being but you took it to a whole new level. Thanks!
Thank you for the kind words, there are actually two threads, the very long one was something I wrote a while back, but my understandings have increased since then. So everything I wrote might not be exactly the same as before.
I was thinking it is based on the book we call "Quran" because there are indeed references to certain verses, but it is really deeper than that.