If Qur'an solves the differences, then why so many interpretations?

armom

Salaam, armom,

Aya 4.59 refers to practical, concret matters, on which must be acted. it is not a question of how we see this or understand that. Therefore refer the matter to God, logically, as with anything, we must be conscious that we are dependent and pawns of God, and that we must follow his laws, then follow or obey the Prophet, when he was alive, since he was the authority, the same as we submit unresolved conflicts in society going to courts, and there is the folowing part to the prophets, those charged in you community of dealing precisely with the kinds of things in ehich we are not able to reach an agreement. In act it amounts to say seek the remedy that the law provides for.

It is clear that we all want and should want to solve our differences always amiably without resort to higher authorities like courts of different kinds, but where we are unable to we resort to arbitration or any other courts, or if it is an administrative matter to the administration if it can be solved at that level.

But in things like prayer or not prayer, we do not need to resort to anybody or anything, escept to God, and if in this life we reach no agreement, no problem, God already says that He will clear everything when we come to Him after our present life, so no problem or mistery there. I, at least, do not see it. If we must act upon something, follow the law, if not leave to God, or whatever youc an do on your own and ocllective efforts during life.

Of course that goes that laws must be perfected if we find them wanting. That is why we must keep resorting to the Qur'an so that we can apply its wisdom to society at all times.

On the other hand while we never can all agree on everything, It is plain that to perfect laws is perfectly possible, even if it is not by compelte unanimity. Most of us agree on many things with many other people even if en each thing with different people, so in fact we can reach agreements for the sake of the functionning of society. There is in this aspect a lot of benefit that we can get out of understanding the Qur'an and purifying ourselves. Sometimes some people are way ahead of others in undestanding something. sometimes back. We must strive, all our lives for the sake of our society and our life after death. But the disagreement a do not see in any way as a problem. To come to agreements, there must be first disagreement, without disagreement there can be no agreement on something improved.

Salaam

Salaam huruf,
In general point of view, I agree with what you are saying. BUT, I am asking in the perspective of Qur'an and not our understanding.

Please read this AYAH carefully-
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah , they would have found within it much Ikhtilaaf (disagreements).

It clearly says that if this book was written by someone else and not GOD we would have so much Disagreements.

Today, we do have a lots of differences among us. And yes, how to pray, how to fast, things like that are disagreements.

Means, we have disagreements even in the basics.

So, according to Surah Nisa, Verse 82, the Qur'an should have given us the details so that we don't disagree on simple issues.

As for this AYAH-
O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day.

I read somewhere in this forum, one brother was saying Quran is a timeless book and every AYAH is applicable even today.
Then why do we say that this ayah can't be a part of today because messenger is not with us now?

Thank you for your further explanations )

huruf

Salaam huruf,
In general point of view, I agree with what you are saying. BUT, I am asking in the perspective of Qur'an and not our understanding.

Please read this AYAH carefully-
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah , they would have found within it much Ikhtilaaf (disagreements).

It clearly says that if this book was written by someone else and not GOD we would have so much Disagreements.

Today, we do have a lots of differences among us. And yes, how to pray, how to fast, things like that are disagreements.

Means, we have disagreements even in the basics.

So, according to Surah Nisa, Verse 82, the Qur'an should have given us the details so that we don't disagree on simple issues.

As for this AYAH-
O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day.

I read somewhere in this forum, one brother was saying Quran is a timeless book and every AYAH is applicable even today.
Then why do we say that this ayah can't be a part of today because messenger is not with us now?

Thank you for your further explanations

When you say

I can't really see what is the problem . There is no contradiction in the Qur'an particularly as you say from the point of view of God. Myself I can't say that I have found contradictions.

So if the contradictions or differences as you say are perceived by some people all I can say is that they should examine more carefully what they are taking for grandes as previous to what they read.

One example

In previous centuries in Europe the maritl authority, that is, the autority of yhe husband over the wife, was taken for granted. In order to doubt it you would have to have been conscious of it being cuestionable, ut the thing is that it never occurred to people that there could be any question about it. Anything ever that would be read by them, including the Qur'an took for granted that marital authority was ever in force and presence, that is no world where it was not so was conceived.
Of course today if we look at the Qur'an we won't find it beause we do nto expect to find it. Therefore there would be contradictions in human understanding int he Qur'an, but not in the Qur'an itself.

As tot he other aya, obey the prophet, see that the aya does not finish there it says obey the prophet and those in charge amongst you. In fact it is the same thing, the prophet was in charge among the people then, today there are other people in charge. The prophet is not going to solve anything today, chose in charge today should do it. It cannot be more straightforward or logical, it is what anyody with any common sense understands. If you have a problem with traffic, you follow what the Traffic authorities, appointed for that, would dispose.

I do not know why all this means such a problem for you, or looks as such a problem for you. May be you take "difference" as being the same as contradiction? I don't know and I do not mean this as a criticism, I just try to understand why it is such a problem because I mayself cannot see it. May be I am not understanding you or I am missing something.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

Please read this AYAH carefully-
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah , they would have found within it much Ikhtilaaf (disagreements).

It clearly says that if this book was written by someone else and not GOD we would have so much Disagreements.

482 do so not they reflecting the qur?an/recitation and in case be from near/with other than the god surely found they of fhi/in it ikhtilafan/divergences of much of (i.e. many occurrences or 3+)

peace - reflect carefully no word "we" in verse, refers to within "it" i.e. "other" qur'an.

ikhtilafan -- with trailing alif; likewise only single occurrence of word "in" qur'an.

divergences of -- alterations, bifurcations, changes, conflicts, departures, deviations, differences, digressions, disagreements, disparities, dissimilarities, dividings, forkings, incompatibilities, interests, mismatches, opinions, partings, separations, shifts, strayings, variances, variations, etc.

see manuscript Berlin State Library ~85% of total text dated 662-765 CE (95.4%)
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
http//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/82?handschrift=163

https//s10.postimg.org/eo5wfy5u1/Ahlwardt_305_ch4v81-89.jpg

btw, here's older manuscript dated 606-652 CE (95.4%)
Gotthelf-Bergstr??er-Archiv Kairo, Nationalbibliothek
Cairo, National Library
http//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/82?handschrift=73

https//s10.postimg.org/6ez4mbcyh/ch4v80-89_Gotthelf-_Bergstr_er.jpg

Novice

So, according to Surah Nisa, Verse 82, the Qur'an should have given us the details so that we don't disagree on simple issues.

Brother are you trying to say Allah ran out of words to give details?

As for this AYAH-
O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day.

I read somewhere in this forum, one brother was saying Quran is a timeless book and every AYAH is applicable even today.
Then why do we say that this ayah can't be a part of today because messenger is not with us now?

Yes brother this book for all times. Have you reflected upon this ayat 567

(

O Messenger, convey that which has been revealed to you from your Rabb, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

Now think about what was revealed to the prophet and what he conveyed in his lifetime. If you believe that it was Quran then are we not following Allah and His prophet by following Quran at any given time?

armom

When you say

I can't really see what is the problem . There is no contradiction in the Qur'an particularly as you say from the point of view of God. Myself I can't say that I have found contradictions.

So if the contradictions or differences as you say are perceived by some people all I can say is that they should examine more carefully what they are taking for grandes as previous to what they read.

One example

In previous centuries in Europe the maritl authority, that is, the autority of yhe husband over the wife, was taken for granted. In order to doubt it you would have to have been conscious of it being cuestionable, ut the thing is that it never occurred to people that there could be any question about it. Anything ever that would be read by them, including the Qur'an took for granted that marital authority was ever in force and presence, that is no world where it was not so was conceived.
Of course today if we look at the Qur'an we won't find it beause we do nto expect to find it. Therefore there would be contradictions in human understanding int he Qur'an, but not in the Qur'an itself.

As tot he other aya, obey the prophet, see that the aya does not finish there it says obey the prophet and those in charge amongst you. In fact it is the same thing, the prophet was in charge among the people then, today there are other people in charge. The prophet is not going to solve anything today, chose in charge today should do it. It cannot be more straightforward or logical, it is what anyody with any common sense understands. If you have a problem with traffic, you follow what the Traffic authorities, appointed for that, would dispose.

I do not know why all this means such a problem for you, or looks as such a problem for you. May be you take "difference" as being the same as contradiction? I don't know and I do not mean this as a criticism, I just try to understand why it is such a problem because I mayself cannot see it. May be I am not understanding you or I am missing something.

Salaam

Salaam huruf, thanks for your time and explanation.

That still doesn't answer my question though.

My question is IF God already told us to refer to God and His messenger if we are in disagreement, then WHY do we still differ?
You see, we will not agree on "HOW TO PRAY?" so that's a difference of course between us.

IF, we refer it to GOD (that is the Quran), still we have differences because some will argue the salat is physically done while others says it's not physical. So that's a huge difference according to me. Or you have to come up with a new definition of the word "difference"

If it was really not a issue, it would have been very simple right? Like, when God says to refer it to HIM, so when we refer it to HIM we still find confusions and not the exact answer.

Suppose, we are confused on SALAT. IF it was simple, God would tell us clearly that "Salat means this and that" and not use words of confusions..

NOTE-
I am not asking these because of doubt or something. I need to present my counter arguments. It might help all of us to learn something from each other. )

wiseman

Greetings!

Like any other scientific or serious discussion, when we ask a question, we better explain it clearly and define the words we use in the context.

We each of us individually see things differently, and think differently, because our understanding of matters are different, some of us are more experienced and some of us less equipped. A simple example is that I am a color blind person, and around 10% of population have color blindness. So surely I always have difference or disagreement with 90% of people when it comes to pick a color that I think it is green. So what is my solutions? always refer to someone whom I think is not color blind.

We always have differences / disagreements on many matters, if not over every single matter. We also have differences / disagreements with ourselves over time. We can think in any way we like. That is our freedom. We have different concepts about God, religion, and every single matter. The reasoning itself requires matters to be different. To understand a dynamic (cause / rule / law) a scientist needs to be presented with different observations. Only by comparing differences, one is then able to carry out deduction and reasoning. My understanding is that Quran does not ask anyone not to have an disagreement, but always ask people to refer to someone else to obtain different opinion / judgement, so the matter could be understood better, from different perspective. Such as we don't know killing a person is bad or good until we know who killed whom for what. Same goes for eating pork, we need to know why. We should have all the necessary facts to make a right judgement, and everyone else should be given an opportunity to present his/her differing opinion.

We have disagreements over matters, but it does not mean matters themselves are in disagreements. All disagreements are over our understanding of matters, not between matters. One usually does not really make logical error in reasoning. Most of the errors are rooted from our understanding of matters, they are conceptual errors. One should ask the right question to obtain the right answer.

'If Quran solves the differences, then why so many interpretations?' is itself is wrong question. Quran is guidance and advice for mankind, it does not solve any problem. People do the interpretations based on their understanding of the facts selected by themselves. Hence any disagreements as result of different understandings of people and based on their own selection of facts, should not be attributed to Quran.

So your question is the result of your not differentiating the understanding of Quran with Quran itself. Over the centuries people have been following their understanding or someone else's understanding of Quran. So we can safely say that each Muslim follows their own version of Islam. I think we have no other way. We can only follow what we know and what we understand of. And because God has created the earth and heaven in truth, we are rewarded/punished in this life for our actions which based upon our understanding. We can never be able to have the whole truth, even if we put the understanding of whole mankind together, but we can always have partial truth. We should always be aware of this fact, and should always be ready challenge our understanding of Quran and understanding of life once there is a conflict between them.

God created the earth and heaven and God created the Quran. Once we understand God is one and everything else is created by God, then we cannot be 100% sure about anything else. So we can compare our understanding of Quran to our understanding of life/nature/earth/heaven to obtain better understanding and learn from our punishments/rewards.

wiseman

Just a comment. You are suggesting that referring God and referring Quran is same thing. Do you think God and Quran is same?
I think Quran is from God, referring to God and Messager is not same thing as referring to Quran.

armom

Salaam brother,
I hope you are fine )

We have disagreements over matters, but it does not mean matters themselves are in disagreements. All disagreements are over our understanding of matters, not between matters. One usually does not really make logical error in reasoning. Most of the errors are rooted from our understanding of matters, they are conceptual errors. One should ask the right question to obtain the right answer.

Again, I've given the AYAT from the Quran itself to proof my claim. I would like you to give me some proof from the Quran itself to proof that point because.

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah , they would have found within it much Ikhtilaaf (disagreements).

This AYAT is clearly saying that if Quran was written by someone else, they would have found in it (Quran) much disagreements.

See the wordings used. It says "MUCH DISAGREEMENTS" (IKHTILAFAN KATHIRA). That means, we can have some disagreements and not MUCH according to that AYAT.

So if we had SOME difference it would be okay on that. BUT it says "MUCH DISAGREEMENTS" and yes we do have much disagreements on the basics.

'If Quran solves the differences, then why so many interpretations?' is itself is wrong question. Quran is guidance and advice for mankind, it does not solve any problem. People do the interpretations based on their understanding of the facts selected by themselves. Hence any disagreements as result of different understandings of people and based on their own selection of facts, should not be attributed to Quran.

Why would Quran use words which we don't understand or difficult to understand or agree while it says

All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has sent down to His slave the Book, and has not placed therein any crookedness.

So it says there is no CROOKEDNESS in the BOOK but yet we can't agree on simple matters?

Thanks for your time and effort! )

armom

Just a comment. You are suggesting that referring God and referring Quran is same thing. Do you think God and Quran is same?
I think Quran is from God, referring to God and Messager is not same thing as referring to Quran.

What's your explanation on that?
I've been seeing over and over again that everyone is referring to God means referring to Quran because you can't refer it God as He is not present physically with you to solve the differences.

hawk99

Peace armom

The interpretation/translation depends on the interpreter/translator hmm

peace

Noon_waalqalami

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah , they would have found within it much Ikhtilaaf (disagreements).

This AYAT is clearly saying that if Quran was written by someone else, they would have found in it (Quran) much disagreements.

See the wordings used. It says "MUCH DISAGREEMENTS" (IKHTILAFAN KATHIRA). That means, we can have some disagreements and not MUCH according to that AYAT.

No you keep posting the same stuff it?s not talking about us disagreeing.

Rather in context, talking about finding divergences/variations in qur'an.

482 do so not they reflecting the qur?an/recitation and in case be from near/with other than the god surely found they of fhi/in it ikhtilafan/divergences/variations of (written with trailing alif single occurrence!) kathiran/much of (i.e. many or 3+)

Read as in verse below it's not "disagreements" the night and the daytime.

106 indeed in ikh'tilfi/divergences/variations the night and the daytime and what create the god in the heavens and the land surely signs for folk righteous being

Peace!

armom

Salaam everyone,
I got the answer for while I was offering my ASR SALAT.

I still have confusion on the following AYAT-

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day.

How to refer it to Allah? hmm

For Messenger, I can understand that he is not among us now. But what about refer it to Allah? It doesn't say refer it to the "Quran"

So if we disagree over anything, we must refer it to Allah... How to do that?

huruf

Salaam huruf, thanks for your time and explanation.

That still doesn't answer my question though.

My question is IF God already told us to refer to God and His messenger if we are in disagreement, then WHY do we still differ?
You see, we will not agree on "HOW TO PRAY?" so that's a difference of course between us.

IF, we refer it to GOD (that is the Quran), still we have differences because some will argue the salat is physically done while others says it's not physical. So that's a huge difference according to me. Or you have to come up with a new definition of the word "difference"

If it was really not a issue, it would have been very simple right? Like, when God says to refer it to HIM, so when we refer it to HIM we still find confusions and not the exact answer.

Suppose, we are confused on SALAT. IF it was simple, God would tell us clearly that "Salat means this and that" and not use words of confusions..

NOTE-
I am not asking these because of doubt or something. I need to present my counter arguments. It might help all of us to learn something from each other. )

Salaaam, armom

You are mixing two things which are about different questions.

The refer to God, the prophet those in charge is aya 4.59 as you well quoted. And I explained that that, when you read it in the context as well as in other ayas on the same context that differing or disputing, which is a different word from ikhtilaaf, it is tanaaza3, refers to questions on which the collectivity or more than to people have to act, that is it is not a matter of different opinion but a matter of having to take a course for more more than one people. If no agreement can be reached then youhave to refer to a third party, that is obvious, the first third party for any believer is God, when the prophet was alive and in authority, he was the highest third party, other than that those inc harge are the third party. You go to an administration in charge, to a court in charge, to anybody incharge of the specific matter.

This is clear and plain to me and it has nothing to do with the inconsistencies in the Qur'an.

You give as example how to pray. In what way any difference as to your idea of how to pray and the ideas of others prevent you from praying? Nothing, asbsolutely nothing prevents you from praying any way you think fit, nothing prevents anybody from praying the way they seem fit. However anybody understands the ayas on salaa if we understand them as praying, prevent anybody at all from praying.

Now you may say, but what about collective praying, well you are your lord, you may join others to pray even if you do not agree 100% that that is the way it is instructed, since otherwise you will not be able to pray collectively or you try to convince someone else to pray with you the way you think is right. Or may be you simply accept that there are many ways for a prayer to be right.

Or you take a provicional course and hope some time to understand better and reach an agreement. God knows you mean your best when you pray, so no problem as far as I can see.

You think that the instructions should be clear at least on that so that there is no disagreement. I do not know how old you are, but from this it gives the impression that you are rather young. What can I say NO matter how clear it could be stated, I assure you, there would be disagreements. The world is the way it is in its every detail and we are all witnesses, perfect witnesses, we are present in the world and yet we all disagree on many immediate things, which we see and touch. See the example given by wiseman. The world is as real and present a creation of God as the Qur'an. What makes you think that there should not be any differences of perception and understanding on the Qur'an? But there is no inconsistency in the Qur'an just as there is no inconsistency in the world.

We will no die for not agreeing nor be condemned in sha' Allah for disagreeing, if we are loyal and honest in our disagreements, not merely vain and self-seeking.

Salaam

good_logic

Brother armom, you said you were offering your Asr SALAT, how did you do that?
May be you refer your disagreements to Allah in the same way?
By direct contact, imploring talking to Allah
GOD bless you.
Peace.

armom