Men and Women segregation in Islam
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Hi everyone,
I am having a discussion with a friend who believe that the rule of segregation exists in Islam whereas I did not find anything in the Quran that states that (unless I haven't looked enough).
The discussion promoted a debate where he said that any kind of interaction between men and women isn't allowed(between two strangers obviously) and this includes talking face to face as well as online.
He also pointed out a few hadiths that basically prove his points.
I know this forum isn't about Hadith but what I found quite effective in my experience is to propose contradictory hadiths as a counterargument, as using the Quran alone gets ignored most of the time and most people don't even understand your message (unless you tell them directly you follow the Quran only,which I don't)
However, showing them parts of Hadiths that are contradicting other parts of their Hadiths makes the debate very efficient as the next question is (why do you choose to believe this section of the hadith and not the other?I know some of you guys actually have been learning about Hadiths as well and have knowledge in that area and my question is if you know of any Hadith(preferably the most of used ones ) where interaction between genders wasn't forbidden and was happening ?
Thank you
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The origin
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_JudaismPirkei Avot 15, Yosi ben Yochanan says that a man who spends too much time talking to women, even his wife, neglects the study of Torah and will inherit gehinnom.
Chapter 152 of Kitzur Shulchan Aruch details a series of laws forbidding interaction between persons of the opposite sex who are not married or closely related. Some of the prohibitions include physical contact, isolation with members of the opposite sex, staring at women or any of their body parts or attire, or conversation for pleasure.
Next...
Just copy and paste the content from above sources and say that Hassan said that he heard Abdullah said that he heard Idris said that he heard Abu Bakr said that he heard Muhammad said... << Copy & Paste the content here >>Oh don't forget to add the Shalallahu Alaihi Wassalam after Muhammad and Allaihi Salam after Abu Bakr..
Voila.. you're done... -
The origin
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_JudaismPirkei Avot 15, Yosi ben Yochanan says that a man who spends too much time talking to women, even his wife, neglects the study of Torah and will inherit gehinnom.
Chapter 152 of Kitzur Shulchan Aruch details a series of laws forbidding interaction between persons of the opposite sex who are not married or closely related. Some of the prohibitions include physical contact, isolation with members of the opposite sex, staring at women or any of their body parts or attire, or conversation for pleasure.
Next...
Just copy and paste the content from above sources and say that Hassan said that he heard Abdullah said that he heard Idris said that he heard Abu Bakr said that he heard Muhammad said... << Copy & Paste the content here >>Oh don't forget to add the Shalallahu Alaihi Wassalam after Muhammad and Allaihi Salam after Abu Bakr..
Voila.. you're done...Jaf,
You don't 'alf crack me up! rotfl
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peace,
The discussion promoted a debate where he said that any kind of interaction between men and women isn't allowed(between two strangers obviously) and this includes talking face to face as well as online.
Your friend must think the prophets were sinners then.
See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/man-woman-alone-together.htmAsk him.
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Thank you Wakas. I will be using some of the sections in your article. However, as I mentioned in my first post, Quran alone arguments don't seem to work effectively when it comes to discussing them with people that come from a traditional background.
I'm sure you understand this as anytime there's a discussion on this matter, the hadith is the one being used extensively as all these people know and can comprehend are stories.
I found a very efficient way to overcome such problem (in my little experience), which is to use contracting sections of the hadith to counteract and then add the verses of the Quran that go in line with the counteracting hadith you propose, this way we have both the Quran and Hadith against just the Hadith.
For example
Him Interaction between gender is haram because of hadith a/b/c
Me Actually there are section of a/b/c that show interaction was permissible
Me In addition, even the Quran shows that such interaction is permissible (citing the Quranic verses)
Me Why do you choose to believe this over the other ? and so on ...So, as you can see, what I don't have at the moment is stories of the Hadiths showing such interactions were existent during the period of the prophet.
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peace brother
i cant recall the refferences but i can give u some haidith and "rawayat" in which u ll get what u looking for
1 i ll gona start with the practice of kissing hands of ur "peer" that thing comes from secondary sources in which both men and women do it to their peer and they always reffer it to peer-e-kamil ( prophet) also do it when their mureed come to see them
2 in old arabian traditions women use to propose men and it was not considered as wrong according to one of the tradition a woman came atvthe gathering of prophet and asked from him that she want to get married and then prophet asked from gathering about that proposal
3 in one tradition which i beleive as lie ( aisha) prophets wife perform some act of bath infront of the chain narrator something like that shia people always quote this when they debate with sunnis
there is lot of other stuff what u can get from traditions so basically u can get whatever u wish in hadith
once in a tv prog a molvee named as qaviz rizvi was talking something like that
he siad " whenever u see a beautiful women and ask her to pray for u becoz God make her so beautiful and God will not gona refuse her request" moreover he said its also in books of hadiththere is lot more if u search i m sure u can get what u are looking for
God bless you
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The origin
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_JudaismPirkei Avot 15, Yosi ben Yochanan says that a man who spends too much time talking to women, even his wife, neglects the study of Torah and will inherit gehinnom.
Chapter 152 of Kitzur Shulchan Aruch details a series of laws forbidding interaction between persons of the opposite sex who are not married or closely related. Some of the prohibitions include physical contact, isolation with members of the opposite sex, staring at women or any of their body parts or attire, or conversation for pleasure.
Next...
Just copy and paste the content from above sources and say that Hassan said that he heard Abdullah said that he heard Idris said that he heard Abu Bakr said that he heard Muhammad said... << Copy & Paste the content here >>Oh don't forget to add the Shalallahu Alaihi Wassalam after Muhammad and Allaihi Salam after Abu Bakr..
Voila.. you're done...rotfl rotfl
Some are even more weird. If you ask them how do you know that this HADITH is "SAHIH" they tell you if there is "Qala Rasulullahi Salla Allahu Alaihi wa Sallam at the beginning of the hadith" rotfl
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peace,
Your friend must think the prophets were sinners then.
See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/man-woman-alone-together.htmAsk him.
Salaam,
You wrote-
Background Some think that in islam unmarried men and women are completely restricted and cannot be alone together under any circumstances.
There are some who just believe that "Men and Women can't be alone together in ONE ROOM" as they state the hadith "If there is one man and one woman in ONE room alone then the third one is Shaytan"
I think what you wrote in that article is accepted by many sunnis already. Some are hardcore and don't even talk to woman even in public.
I personally agree with that, A man and woman (non mahram) can't stay in one room. Majority of the time ends in zina.
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There are some who just believe that "Men and Women can't be alone together in ONE ROOM" as they state the hadith "If there is one man and one woman in ONE room alone then the third one is Shaytan"
Male Shaytan or Female Shaytan? Or both?
I personally agree with that, A man and woman (non mahram) can't stay in one room. Majority of the time ends in zina.
I disagree based on personal experience. I have spent hundreds or even thousand of times of staying in one room with a woman that is not my 'muhreem' and NONE of it ends in Zina.... I'm not a fan of a quickie in the office....
And I never met Shaytan either in the room, whether it's male or female Shaytan..
The only third person in the room is perhaps a group of security guard peering through a CCTV camera... -
There are some who just believe that "Men and Women can't be alone together in ONE ROOM" as they state the hadith "If there is one man and one woman in ONE room alone then the third one is Shaytan"
I think when one man and one women are alone in a room then one of them become shaitan depending who has sickness in thought.
I think what you wrote in that article is accepted by many sunnis already. Some are hardcore and don't even talk to woman even in public.
I personally agree with that, A man and woman (non mahram) can't stay in one room. Majority of the time ends in zina.
Only if sex is the only thing in their life like those fascinating about 70 hooris all the times and attacking women whenever they find a chance.
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I thought it was 72... what happened to the other 2?
Some narrations say 70 and some say 72. Jaffer you can go for 72 if that makes you happy.. laugh
Those who believe in following non-sense cannot stay in one room with a women alone.
Sex in paradise
Ibn Kathir mentions Muhammed saying that man in heaven would have sex with one hundred virgins in one day. In another version of the hadith, Muhammad is reported to have said"In Paradise, the believer will be given such and such strength for women." Anas said, "I asked, `O Allah's Messenger! Will one be able to do that?' He said, "He will be given the strength of a hundred (men)". Some companions of Muhammad are reported to have said that man in heaven will be "busy in deflowering virgins" Ibn Kathir says that the houri "are delightful virgins of comparable age who never had sexual intercourse with anyone, whether from mankind or Jinns, before their husbands." by commenting,"in the other life, after they became old in this life, they were brought back while virgin, youthful, being delightfully passionate with their husbands, beautiful, kind and cheerful."Imam Suyuti is reported to have said, "each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one will marry seventy houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."
In another place, Ibn Kathir emphasizes the literal nature of sexual intercourse in Paradise by another Hadith
"The Prophet was asked 'Do we have sex in Paradise?' He answered 'Yes, by him who holds my soul in his hand, and it will be done dahman, dahman (that is intercourse done with such shove and disturbance). And when it is finished she will return pure and virgin again.'"
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
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Some narrations say 70 and some say 72. Jaffer you can go for 72 if that makes you happy.. laugh
Those who believe in following non-sense cannot stay in one room with a women alone.
Sex in paradise
Ibn Kathir mentions Muhammed saying that man in heaven would have sex with one hundred virgins in one day.I go with 100 then..
100 / 24 hrs more or less 15 minutes...
15 minutes per virgin.. that's a quickie...Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal;
Are you sure this is a description of Jannah... That looks like a torture...
God is angry and He torture you with eternal erection...the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one will marry seventy houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."
With this kind of description about Jannah..
I'm bewildered how on earth they still manage to get a convert among women...
(And how on earth women within the religion still cope up with this and some even try to convert other women into her religion)Girls!
In Jannah you will have eternally appetising vaginas, 70 of other girls which all are beautiful, much more beautiful than you are and YOUR HUSBAND with ETERNALLY ERECTED PENIS !
Isn't Jannah a great place or what ?? -
I go with 100 then..
100 / 24 hrs more or less 15 minutes...
15 minutes per virgin.. that's a quickie...Jaffer You have to be Muqqallid Hadithi Muslim to get all the perks.
Are you sure this is a description of Jannah... That looks like a torture...
God is angry and He torture you with eternal erection...Ask a mulla and he will tell you this is a reward not torture. This is the fulcrum of their future life. rotfl rotfl rotfl
With this kind of description about Jannah..
I'm bewildered how on earth they still manage to get a convert among women...
(And how on earth women within the religion still cope up with this and some even try to convert other women into her religion)They first convince them with hadith that women have a small brain and cannot think clearly and their faith depends upon following blindly.
Girls!
In Jannah you will have eternally appetising vaginas, 70 of other girls which all are beautiful, much more beautiful than you are and YOUR HUSBAND with ETERNALLY ERECTED PENIS !
Isn't Jannah a great place or what ??Why you stopped Jaffer just say the word....
And you will not be sinning as you are just quoting hadithi stuff not making it up.
What a shame. What they are following and what they are building for themselves for the next life? -
With this kind of description about Jannah..
I'm bewildered how on earth they still manage to get a convert among women...
(And how on earth women within the religion still cope up with this and some even try to convert other women into her religion)It's because no one invites them with hadith. Majority of the time people use Quran to invite people to Islam.
if they use hadith, they only use some of the hadith which talks great about women like "Paradise is under mother's feet" then they use the hadith of last sermon of the Prophet "I command you to deal justly with women" etc. -
Why you stopped Jaffer just say the word....
And you will not be sinning as you are just quoting hadithi stuff not making it up.
What a shame. What they are following and what they are building for themselves for the next life?What word?
I fully understand the motives of the dogmas..
Those dogmas (as many others in the Islam religion) were invented primarily for MEN as target captive market. Teenager and Young men to be exact... As those are the target market for enlistment as (low ranked) military soldiers.Fight for me.. erggh.. I mean Allah, and when you die in the battlefield, you will have your reward from Allah... not from me... but from Allah, 70 / 100 / 72 virgins for all of your pleasure..
Planned Results
- Low cost soldiers (no need for bonuses to motivate them as the reward will come from Allah after they die, in which highly probable that they will during their first battle)
- Additional income to treasury (As Quran mandated 20% of tax for war booty confiscated from raid or invasion to the Kufr people)
- Highly disciplined soldiers who never disobey order (As Quran mandated "Total Obediance", samina wa athona, we hear and we obey..)
- Highly motivated soldiers who do not afraid to die and they fight to the death in the battlefield.
Genius isn't it?
If those dogmas doesn't rings well with women or children or middle aged men (because saying 'virgins' to middle aged men will probably be a 'turn off', it will remind them of their own teenage daughters, who most of the time are problematic, middle aged men will prefer MILF instead) then who cares??? As they're not the target captive market.
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However, none of the verses show that men and women can be alone together.
Those verse in the link http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/man-woman-alone-together.htm
show that in the presence of a mehrem, you can interact with the gender but if not then some interactions are allowed behind a barrier (ie the prophet's wife example)
I don't see any good example showing men and women being allowed to interact with each other in a social context (keeping in mind decency of course) -
You have prophet Lut telling his apparently male people that his daughters daughters are better for them than his guests. He was a prophet.
As tot he prophets wives, they were int heir home, you do not go and pester women in her home with your own errands and without thinking whether you catch them in a good moment or not. They might be taking a rest or just not be presentable, therefore the hiyab (curtain)
Other.At any rate there is nothing the Qur'an that forbids such a thing, and on the other hand there is something that how do we dare to forbid what God does not forbid or allow what God does not allow. Can't remember the aya.
Also there is the principle that he beliving males and the beliving females are friends of each other nd order what is good, etc., in order to order something you must intereact and in order to be friedns ou must interact. If there was soe reservation as to that, it logically should have been shown int the context, becaus eas it is it is completely unrestricted, except for the general restriction that males whould be chast and women should be chaste. That is it.
Salaam
