AlFathia
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What rules are you referring to?
Have, you been reading this discussion from page 1? Weren't you able to spot any linguistic rules between my discussion with Mazhar and now Manny?
Let me recap numerically rules related to Allah.
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Claim is that Allah is not one word rather a sentence written as one word. The rule for this kind of Arabic writing is called Al-Naat. In Al-Naat it is even allowed to eliminate alphabets but users have to know what it is referring. Allah is important concept hence they used markers for future readers to be able to recover whole sentence.
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First part is "Al". But this Al is not a definite particle here. This is a contraction of relative noun "Allathi". Allathi can be legitimately written as "Al". References have been provide from Lexicon and Grammar book. Furthermore, most occurrences of "Al" with word "Quam" in Quran are translated in the sense of "Allathi" and not "The" of definite particle by other traditional translators providing another evidence. Also, since next word is a negative particle "La" in this sentence. This is another evidence that it cannot be "AL" for "The". The definite particle "Al" can't be used before this type of negative particle.
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There is a shadda over the middle alphabet with an alif over shadda. This implies 4 alphabets written together. These are going to 2 Alifs and 2 Lams, due to phonetics as 2 lam are are pronounced at the beginning after first Alif of "Al".
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The phonetic of pronunciation to date is "Al La Ha".
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Finally, traditionalist have no explanation for its spelling or the way word Allah is written as such based upon linguistic rules. Furthermore, the explanations they give can't account for all markers used in the spelling as written in Quran.
Regards,
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Have, you been reading this discussion from page 1? Weren't you able to spot any linguistic rules between my discussion with Mazhar and now Manny?
I have but my sometimes bad memory & poor knowledge on the linguistic rules is to blame.
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I have but my sometimes bad memory & poor knowledge on the linguistic rules is to blame.
No problem, we are in the same boat. I have been researching and reading these rules for almost 14 years. Still forget, make mistakes and keep having to search and learn rules whenever a new situation arises. This is how knowledge progresses.
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No problem, we are in the same boat. I have been researching and reading these rules for almost 14 years. Still forget, make mistakes and keep having to search and learn rules whenever a new situation arises. This is how knowledge progresses.
Be careful though. Sometimes you can lose it and when you try to reclaim it, it may not be the same one. (I honestly don't know if i said that correctly.)
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Be careful though. Sometimes you can lose it and when you try to reclaim it, it may not be the same one. (I honestly don't know if i said that correctly.)
Yes just remembering that one doesn't know everything help. Also evaluation of any argument and evidence presented based upon reason and logic helps.
Let me share the following facts. This understanding of Allah is not entirely mine. Initially, some know person forwarded me an email asking that I should be able to demonstrate, from current translation of Quran that "Al" is translated in the sense of "allathe". Argument had weight, but it is like finding a needle in a haystack. I did reasonably extensive search of nouns with "Al", until I found that almost at all places the "al" of "AlQuam" is translated with meanings of "those" or "Allathe". However, you must have seen people are still not willing to accept it during this discussion when presented earlier.
Also, initially I thought that that Allah was actually or Al La illah meaning "one who is not a deity for worship". However, an unknown lady Arabic teacher from India through another person objected that if it is "illah", there can't be Idgham of Hamza til Wasal with an alif, as claimed in my analysis. This made me re-look. Not only her claim was correct but I also realized that there is no "Alif" in the text prior to "Ha". Therefore, the last word in sentence can't be " " rather the word is " ". So the break down became from to . This change in Arabic resulted in following change in meanings. From "one who is not a deity for worship" to "one who doesn't engage in worship".
My utmost gratitude to these two unknown individuals for their help in improving the understanding as well getting closer to the truth.
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Let me share the following facts. This understanding of Allah is not entirely mine. Initially, some know person forwarded me an email asking that I should be able to demonstrate, from current translation of Quran that "Al" is translated in the sense of "allathe". Argument had weight, but it is like finding a needle in a haystack. I did reasonably extensive search of nouns with "Al", until I found that almost at all places the "al" of "AlQuam" is translated with meanings of "those" or "Allathe". However, you must have seen people are still not willing to accept it during this discussion when presented earlier.
I think it's because they are not sure if it's correct, heck i am not sure it's correct. Manny_E did present counter arguments, i wonder what will be his response to this.
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I think it's because they are not sure if it's correct, heck i am not sure it's correct. Manny_E did present counter arguments, i wonder what will be his response to this.
I understand it is such a drastic shift from traditions. This one word demolishes all the religions of the world. I just want people to evaluate the argument based upon merits of linguistic evidence and reason/logic used in this process, without prejudices and with open mind. If they have linguistic rules based objections. They should cite those rules. I am open to re-evaluate and re-consider.
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I understand it is such a drastic shift from traditions. This one word demolishes all the religions of the world. I just want people to evaluate the argument based upon merits of linguistic evidence and reason/logic used in this process, without prejudices and with open mind. If they have linguistic rules based objections. They should cite those rules. I am open to re-evaluate and re-consider.
You say that this one word demolishes all religions of the world is problematic because you assume that all religions are theistic. That is not true because there are non-theistic religions like Jainism.
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You say that this one word demolishes all religions of the world is problematic because you assume that all religions are theistic. That is not true because there are non-theistic religions like Jainism.
First of all Jainism god is not a creator, survivor or destroyer of universe. Their god is a perfect being, so they do have concept of a god but it different. More importantly Jains do engage in worship. Whereas, Allah means "one who doesn't engage in worship". No worship lead to freedom from subjugation of religion. No worship, hence no subjugation, therefore freedom of mankind from all kinds of slavery even slavery of gods.
http//www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/worship/worship_1.shtml
https//sites.fas.harvard.edu/~pluralsm/affiliates/jainism/jainedu/jaingod.htm -
First of all Jainism god is not a creator, survivor or destroyer of universe. Their god is a perfect being. More importantly Jains do engage in worship. Whereas, Allah means "one who doesn't engage in worship". No worship lead to freedom from subjugation of religion. No worship, hence no subjugation, therefore freedom of mankind from all kinds of slavery even slavery of gods.
Where in their scripture say that? Edit I didn't see the link when i replied. Edit 2 When i checked the links, they didn't show verses in the Jainist scripture. (Unless i missed it.)
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No worship lead to freedom from subjugation of religion. No worship, hence no subjugation, therefore freedom of mankind from all kinds of slavery even slavery of gods.
Wait i am lost here, how is worship causes subjugation? Isn't that like a anti theist claim or something? There was also atheist groups who did some bad thing like League of Militant Atheists in Soviet Union. Look up their grave misdeeds.
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Let us keep this discussion to understanding of Quran and especially word Allah based upon linguistic rules. Thanks.
Okay. Still i am not sure if Allah really means One who does not engage worship. What do you say about this brother Manny_E?
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Wait i am lost here, how is worship causes subjugation? Isn't that like a anti theist claim or something? There was also atheist groups who did some bad thing like League of Militant Atheists in Soviet Union. Look up their grave misdeeds.
Worship and concept of god for worship leads to hierarchy of religious institutions. It only serves the purpose of these institutions and people running these institutions. The common people are salves of god via these institutions . However, if there is a creator? One doesn't need any hierarchy or structured ritualistic religion to bring humans to him. Their description of creator is as wrong as yours or mine. It is all imaginative with false accounts created and attributed to imaginative authorities.
So far what I understand of Quran. While it denies worship and hence obliterates need for the god or gods for worship. Yet it doesn't provide a description of a creator.
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Worship and concept of god for worship leads to hierarchy of religious institutions. It only serves the purpose of these institutions and people running these institutions. The common people are salves of god via these institutions . However, if there is a creator? One doesn't need any hierarchy or structured ritualistic religion to bring humans to him. Their description of creator is as wrong as yours or mine. It is all imaginative with false accounts created and attributed to imaginative authorities.
Since when did i say about rituals and hierarchy?
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So far what I understand of Quran. While it denies worship and hence obliterates need for the god or gods for worship. Yet it doesn't provide a description of a creator.
I don't think you are correct about that. Check Surah 112.
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I don't think you are correct about that. Check Surah 112.
You mean to say following establish it?
Surah 112 1
He, who doesn?t engage in worship is following an ultimate reality, use your rational and express
Surah 112 2
The course needs to be repaired and directed to one, who doesn?t engage in worship.
Surah 112 3
Neither he has introduced a new idea, nor he could.
Surah 112 4
There is no other ultimate reality in likeliness for him.
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Surah 112 1
He, who doesn?t engage in worship is following an ultimate reality, use your rational and express
Where did you get following and ultimate reality? I checked the root word of Ahadun (د and doesn't say anything about ultimate reality or following.
Alif-Ha-Dal = make/call it one, unity, anyone/anything.
ahada ashara (eleven).ahad n. 296, 2102, 2102, 2136, 2180, 2266, 2282, 2282, 2285, 373, 384, 391, 3153, 418, 420, 443, 4152, 56, 520, 527, 5106, 5115, 661, 780, 87, 94, 96, 952, 984, 9127, 1181, 1236, 1241, 1278, 1565, 1658, 1676, 1723, 1819, 1822, 1826, 1832, 1838, 1842, 1847, 1849, 18110, 1926, 1998, 2399, 246, 2421, 2428, 2825, 2826, 2827, 2928, 3332, 3339, 3340, 3541, 3542, 3835, 43!7, 499, 4912, 5911, 6310, 6947, 722, 727, 7218, 7220, 7222, 7226, 7435, 8925, 8926, 905, 907, 9219, 1121, 1124
ahada ashara n. num. 124
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages 63, 64, 65 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=aHd
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Surah 112 2
The course needs to be repaired and directed to one, who doesnt engage in worship.
Where did you get The course needs to be repaired and directed to one from? It says Allahu alssamadu ( د and alssamadu is in masculine noun not verb. Yes one of the meanings of ssamadu is repair but repair is a verb.
Sad-Miim-Dal = to set up, erect a thing, adorn, wish, repair, strike. samad - chief, lord, eternal, one to whom obedience is rendered, one to whom recourse is had, one who is independent, everything goes back to him as its source.
ssamadu (n. m. sing.) - 1122
LL, V4, p 450, 451 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=SMd
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Surah 112 3
Neither he has introduced a new idea, nor he could.
Yalid & yooladu doesn't mean idea, it means to beget or give birth
Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth.
Walada (prf. 3rd. p. m. sing.) he has begotten.
Waladna (prf. 3rd. p. f. plu.) They (f.) gave birth.
Wulida (pp. 3rd. p. m. sing.) He was born.
Wulidtu (pp. 1st. p. sing.) I was born.
Yalid (imp. 3rd. p. sing. juss.) He begets.
Yaliduu (imp. 3rd. p. m. plu. acc.) They will beget.
Alidu (imp. 1st. sing.) I will give birth, will bear a child.
Yuulad (pip. 3rd. p. m. sing. juss.) He is begotten.
Waladun (n.) Child; Offspring.
Aulaad (plu.) Children.
Waalidun (act. pic. m. sing.) Begotten, Real father.
Waalidatun (act. pic. f. sing.) Mother.
Waalidaan/Waalidain (act. pic. dual) Parents.
Waalidai (act. pic. duel. f. d.) Parents.
Wildaan (n. plu.) Youths; Children.
Waliidun (act. 2nd. pic. m. sing.) Child.
Mauluudun (pis. pic. m. sing. ) Begotten one; One who is born.walada vb. (1)
perf. act. 37152, 582, 903
impf. act. 1172, 7127, 1123
perf. pass. 1915, 1933
impf. pass. 1123
pcple. act. (f. walidah, du. walidan) 283, 2180, 2215, 2233, 2233, 47, 47, 433, 436, 4135, 5110, 6151, 1441, 1723, 1914, 1932, 2719, 298, 3114, 3114, 3133, 3133, 4615, 4615, 4617, 7128, 903
pcple. pass. 2233, 2233, 3133walad n.m. (pl. awlad) 2116, 2233, 2233, 2233, 2233, 310, 347, 3116, 411, 411, 411, 412, 412, 412, 412, 4171, 4176, 4176, 6101, 6137, 6140, 6151, 828, 955, 969, 985, 1068, 1221, 1731, 1764, 17111, 184, 1839, 1935, 1977, 1988, 1991, 1992, 2126, 2391, 252, 289, 3133, 3435, 3437, 394, 4381, 5720, 5817, 603, 6012, 639, 6414, 6415, 7121, 723
walid n.m. (pl. wildan) 475, 498, 4127, 2618, 5617, 7317, 7619
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 220, 221, 222 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=wld
