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  4. The meaning "headcover" for Khimar or Khumur could possiblly be a extrapolation.

The meaning "headcover" for Khimar or Khumur could possiblly be a extrapolation.

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  • The_SardarT Offline
    The_SardarT Offline
    The_Sardar
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Salam/Peace everyone. I have a question

    I wonder why did the traditionalists have made walyadribnabikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna ( &#1606 from spread their coverings on their bosoms to mean spread their so-called "head covers" on their bosoms? Even though hair (sha'r) or head (ra?s) is not even mentioned in the verse. Also there is no verses saying that it is sinful for women not wearing "headcover" So why are they doing this? They even call it Hijab but the root word says this

    Ha-Jiim-Ba ( &#1576 = something which hinders/prevents/precludes/conceals/covers/protects/intervenes, hid, seclude, to veil/conceal/cover/hide a thing, intervene between two things.

    hajaba vb. (1) pcple. pass. 8315

    hijab n.m. 746, 1745, 1917, 3353, 3832, 415, 4251

    They even influenced Edward Lane's Lexicon through Taj Al Arus which is i think it's based off from Hadith (Correct me if i am wrong.) (Check his preface chrome-extension//oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000006.pdf chrome-extension//oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000007.pdf)

    Kha-Miim-Ra ( &#1585 = cover/conceal/veil, becoming changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, a covering, something fermented/matured.

    khamr n.fem. 2219, 590, 591, 1236, 1241, 4715

    khumur n. masc. pl. 2431

    ...and let them draw/set/cast (walyadribna) with their veils/covers (bikhumurihinna) over (AAala) their breasts/bosom (juyoobihinna)...

    Lane gives some examples ?the dwelling was hidden by the trees?, ?he concealed his testimony?, "She (a woman) applied KhaMaRat as a linament, to beautify her complexion.".

    "KhiMaR a woman's head-covering."

    LL, V2, p 443, 444, 445, 446 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=xmr

    I also heard that so-called "islamic headcover" is based of Judeo-Christian

    1 Corinthians 112-16English Standard Version (ESV)

    Head Coverings

    2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

    Footnotes a.1 Corinthians 113 Greek gun. This term may refer to a woman or a wife, depending on the context b.1 Corinthians 113 Greek anr. This term may refer to a man or a husband, depending on the context c.1 Corinthians 115 In verses 5?13, the Greek word gun is translated wife in verses that deal with wearing a veil, a sign of being married in first-century culture d.1 Corinthians 1110 Or messengers, that is, people sent to observe and report.

    The sectarians use "history" that women wore headcover during Prophet's time but i have not seen any evidence as of now.

    Is someone here could help that has both very good Arabic linguistic & history skills?

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    • The_SardarT Offline
      The_SardarT Offline
      The_Sardar
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      And i agree with Wakas research on khimar in 2431

      http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

      Misconception Muslim women must fully cover up in Islam
      Background Some think that Muslim women must cover their whole body, including face when in public. Women's dress code in Islam is one of the most focussed upon subjects not only in the Western media but also in Muslim countries, yet it remains one of the most distorted and misunderstood.

      Firstly, according to The Quran, the most important rule of the dress code for both men and women is as follows

      O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as to adorn you. But the best garment is the garment of piety/righteousness. These are some of God's signs, so that they may be mindful.

      The garment of righteousness/piety could either refer to choosing a garment that reflects this quality or enveloping oneself in righteous/pious conduct is best, or both.

      The following verses tells women to guard their private parts (i.e. genitalia) and cover their chests

      Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, for that is purer for them. God is fully aware of what you do.
      And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent of it, and let them draw with their covers over their chests. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those committed to them by oath, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

      From the above verse it can be deduced that for the purposes of women's dress code two types of beauty are described

      1. What is apparent (this can be revealed in public)
      2. What is hidden (this type must be covered in public, but could be revealed by a striking of feet or walk/stride which is revealing)

      Such a striking of feet or walk could only reveal a limited number of parts of the body, e.g. the private parts, buttocks, thighs, breasts, hips, thus any part not revealed by such an action should not be considered part of hidden beauty and therefore part of apparent beauty. Of course, this means such things as face, hair, hands, feet etc would not clearly fall into the category of beauty that is meant to be hidden. Furthermore, the verse clearly brackets what beauty it is referring to by saying "...the child who has not yet understood the composition of women" implying it is relating to what is specific to a woman (i.e. what is different between man and woman) nothing else.
      This understanding would also fit with The Quran's instruction on the body parts that are to be cleansed during daily ablution (hands, arms, face, head and feet), see 56, 443.

      A headscarf (commonly called "hijab&quot is often worn by Muslim women, however this word is not used like this in The Quran. In fact, the word "hijab" is not even used to mean an item of clothing and simply means something which intervenes between two things, e.g. barrier, screen, seclusion. All verses where this word occurs are as follows 746, 3353, 3832, 415, 4251, 1745, 1917, 8315. It should also be noted that believing men and women are free to eat in each other's company, whether family or friends , thus a veil covering the face (commonly called "niqab", or the full veil "burqa&quot would obviously be impractical. Again, such an item of clothing is nowhere to be found in The Quran.

      Another common mistake regarding dress code is when the following situation-specific verse is applied to all situations

      And those who harm the believing men and the believing women, with no just reason, they have brought upon themselves a slander and a gross sin.
      O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen (or draw near) over themselves their outer-garments. That is more likely they be recognized so not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
      If the hypocrites and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain*, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbours except for a short while.
      *proving harm is already occurring, and refers back to 3358, which is before the modification in dress is mentioned.

      The mistake is exposed when the practicalities of applying the above verses are considered. The verses deal with open enmity with significant repercussions for the perpetrators if this behaviour does not stop. The open enmity is direct to the person, hence the need for the women to modify their outer-garment in order to be recognised in public and not harmed. For the suggested solution in these verses to succeed four things must be in place

      1. The open enmity or harm must be present in the community first and direct to the women
      2. The modification in outer-garment and the consequence for the perpetrator of not abiding by this identification code must either be made known to the community or this would have to be common knowledge amongst the community
      3. The modification recommended would be enough to differentiate one group from another
      4. The authority is in place to fight/expel those persisting in this behaviour

      Clearly, this specific criteria has to be fulfilled for these verses to work, thus is not a universal rule. It is situation-specific, e.g. if a section of the community become hostile to believing women or women in general and the believers have some power in the land, then they can utilise this solution, effectively giving an ultimatum with no room for excuse for the perpetrators.

      These verses are commonly interpreted to mean that Muslim women must lengthen (or draw near) their outer-garment whenever in public even in times of peace. However, this is easily refuted by considering that if this was the case and open enmity then appeared, the modification suggested in these verses would already exist, thus implementing the modification in these verses could not be done, thus rendering the solution described in these verses as void.
      However, from these verses it can be deduced that wearing of an outer-garment by women when in public was the norm.

      The following verse shows being clothed is the norm but makes it clear that flexibility is allowed in certain situations, as long as we are mindful of modesty. The context is etiquette within the household

      And the women who are past child bearing and who do not seek to get married have no sin upon them if they discard their garments*, provided they do not show off with their beauty. If they abstain, then it is better for them. God is Hearer, Knower.
      *Arabic word is "thiyab" and refers to ordinary clothes/gowns.

      It should be noted that all examples of dress in The Quran of the righteous or believing men and women involve wearing garments, e.g. 1831, 2223, 2458, 2460, 3533, 744, 7621. Also, to provide clothing for others is considered a charitable or righteous act .

      As can be seen, The Quran gives us a set of simple basic rules with flexible guidance for the rest, which can be applied to different situations/society/function. This flexibility is a mercy but has unfortunately been abused by various schools of thought and religious leaders who have issued their own additional rulings and consequently there is disagreement amongst them on other than the basic rules.

      Additional notes for Arabic readers
      The word "khumur" is used in 2431 and can be the plural of "khimaar" or "khimirr", and can mean any cover made of cloth or headcover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries and Traditional Ahadith/Narrations (see Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 282). Please note the Arabic preposition "bi" meaning "with" in "bikhumurihinna", which means they are to cover their chests with their "khumur/covers/headcovers". The usage of preposition "bi" is different to the preposition "min" as used in 3359 "min jalabeebihinna" which means to use a part of their "jilbab/outer-garment" in the modification suggested, i.e. not all of it has to be lowered or drawn near, just part of it. In 2431 if God intended that part of it (e.g. headcover) stays on the head and part of it be used to cover the bosom, it would have been more appropriate to use "min khumurhinna". Furthermore, the word "yadribna" as used in 2431 has no connotation of lengthening or lowering in any other occurrence, unlike "yudneena" in 3359 which does, thus would have been more appropriate to use.
      Even if "khumur" is taken to mean "headcovers" it should be noted that the order is to cover the chest, not the head - of course, one may cover their head if they wish.

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      • The_SardarT Offline
        The_SardarT Offline
        The_Sardar
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        I wonder does Kitab Al-Ayn or Maqayees Al-Lugha mention anything about "headcover" of the root word Kha-Miim-Ra?

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        • The_SardarT Offline
          The_SardarT Offline
          The_Sardar
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          The reason i am posing this question is because i viewed on the heated debate with Tanveermd and ImamQuranOnly and i agree with Tanveermd, it's just that ImamQuranOnly trying to claim that Khimar always meant "headcover" by history (correct me if i am wrong)

          You can see the debate between TanveerMD & ImamQuranOnly https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14453.msg133236#msg133236

          P.S This is NOT to smear someone's character or to start a fight or something, this is only me being honest of my intention of this post.

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          • R Offline
            R Offline
            Rilum
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Salam/Peace everyone.
            I guess the reason is maybe because of tradition.

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            • The_SardarT Offline
              The_SardarT Offline
              The_Sardar
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Salam/Peace everyone.
              I guess the reason is maybe because of tradition.

              See this is why i don't trust tradition. In the Qur'an, the word tradition is not mentioned but there are verses that disbelievers reject what Allah/God (SWTAY) has sent down

              2170
              Wa-itha qeela lahumu ittabiAAoo maanzala Allahu qaloo bal nattabiAAu ma alfaynaAAalayhi abaana awa law kana abaohumla yaAAqiloona shay-an wala yahtadoona
              And if they are told "Follow what God has sent down," they say "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?

              5104
              Wa-itha qeela lahum taAAalawila ma anzala Allahu wa-ila alrrasooliqaloo hasbuna ma wajadnaAAalayhi abaana awa law kana abaohumla yaAAlamoona shay-an wala yahtadoona
              And if they are told "Come to what God hassent down, and to the messenger;" they say "We are content with what we found our fathers doing." What if their fathers did not know anything nor were guided?

              728
              Wa-itha faAAaloo fahishatan qaloowajadna AAalayha abaana waAllahuamarana biha qul inna Allaha laya/muru bialfahsha-i ataqooloona AAalaAllahi ma la taAAlamoona
              And if they commit immorality, they say "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say "God does not order immorality! Do you say about God what you do not know?"

              2149
              Allatheena yakhshawna rabbahum bialghaybiwahum mina alssaAAati mushfiqoona
              Those who are concerned towards their Lord in the unseen, and they are weary of the Hour.

              2150
              Wahatha thikrun mubarakunanzalnahu afaantum lahu munkiroona
              And this is a blessed reminder which We have sent down. Will you be deniers of it?

              2151
              Walaqad atayna ibraheemarushdahu min qablu wakunna bihi AAalimeena
              And before that We gave Abraham his understanding, and We were aware of him.

              2152
              Ith qala li-abeehi waqawmihi mahathihi alttamatheelu allatee antum lahaAAakifoona
              As he said to his father and people "What are these images to which you are devoted?"

              2153
              Qaloo wajadna abaanalaha AAabideena
              They said "We found our fathers worshipping them."

              2154
              Qala laqad kuntum antum waabaokumfee dalalin mubeenin
              He said "You and your fathers have been clearly misguided."

              2155
              Qaloo aji/tana bialhaqqiam anta mina allaAAibeena
              They said "Have you come to us with the truth, or are you simply playing?"

              2156
              Qala bal rabbukum rabbu alssamawatiwaal-ardi allathee fatarahunna waanaAAala thalikum mina alshshahideena
              He said "No, your lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the One who initiated them. And I bear witness to such."

              2157
              WataAllahi laakeedanna asnamakumbaAAda an tuwalloo mudbireena
              "And by God, I will plan against your statues after you have gone away and given your backs."

              2158
              FajaAAalahum juthathan illakabeeran lahum laAAallahum ilayhi yarjiAAoona
              So he broke them into pieces except for the biggest of them, so that they may turn to him.

              2159
              Qaloo man faAAala hatha bi-alihatinainnahu lamina alththalimeena
              They said "Who has done this to our gods? He is surely one of the wicked."

              2160
              Qaloo samiAAna fatan yathkuruhumyuqalu lahu ibraheemu
              They said "We heard a young man mentioning them. He was called Abraham."

              2161
              Qaloo fa/too bihi AAalaaAAyuni alnnasi laAAallahum yashhadoona
              They said "Bring him before the eyes of the people so that they may be witness."

              2162
              Qaloo aanta faAAalta hatha bi-alihatinaya ibraheemu
              They said "Did you do this to our gods O Abraham?"

              2163
              Qala bal faAAalahu kabeeruhum hathafais-aloohum in kanoo yantiqoona
              He said "It was the biggest one of them here who did it, so ask them, if they do speak!"

              (See this topic https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610206.0)

              2164
              FarajaAAoo ila anfusihim faqalooinnakum antumu alththalimoona
              So they turned and said to themselves "It is indeed ourselves who have been wicked!"

              2165
              Thumma nukisoo AAala ruoosihim laqadAAalimta ma haola-i yantiqoona
              Then they returned to their old ideas "You know that they do not speak!"

              2166
              Qala afataAAbudoona min dooni Allahima la yanfaAAukum shay-an wala yadurrukum
              He said "Do you serve besides God that which does not benefit you at all nor harm you?"

              2167
              Offin lakum walima taAAbudoona mindooni Allahi afala taAAqiloona
              "I am fed-up of you and to what you serve besides God! Do you not comprehend?"

              2168
              Qaloo harriqoohu waonsurooalihatakum in kuntum faAAileena
              They said "If you are to do anything, then burn him, and give victory to your gods."

              2169
              Qulna ya naru kooneebardan wasalaman AAala ibraheema
              We said "O fire, be cool and safe upon Abraham."

              2170
              Waaradoo bihi kaydan fajaAAalnahumual-akhsareena
              And they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.

              2171
              Wanajjaynahu walootan ilaal-ardi allatee barakna feeha lilAAalameena
              And We saved him and Lot to the land which We have blessed in for the worlds.

              3121
              Wa-itha qeela lahumu ittabiAAoo maanzala Allahu qaloo bal nattabiAAu ma wajadnaAAalayhi abaana awa law kana alshshaytanuyadAAoohum ila AAathabi alssaAAeeri
              And if they are told "Follow that which God has sent down." They say "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing." What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?

              And if you look in the dictionary for the word "tradition" it says this

              https//www.etymonline.com/word/tradition

              tradition (n.)
              late 14c., "statement, belief, or practice handed down from generation to generation," especially "belief or practice based on Mosaic law," from Old French tradicion "transmission, presentation, handing over" (late 13c.) and directly from Latin traditionem (nominative traditio) "delivery, surrender, a handing down, a giving up," noun of action from past participle stem of tradere "deliver, hand over," from trans- "over" (see trans-) + dare "to give" (from PIE root *do- "to give&quot. The word is a doublet of treason (q.v.). Meaning "a long-established custom" is from 1590s. The notion is of customs, ways, beliefs, doctrines, etc. "handed down" from one generation to the next.

              Nobody can make a tradition; it takes a century to make it.

              https//www.google.se/search?ei=lNQrW5DHCcKTsAG9jKa4AQ&q=tradition+meaning&oq=tradition+m&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.0i67k1j0l9.1670.1670.0.4098.1.1.0.0.0.0.83.83.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.82....0.wm7hjSGfhUo

              noun
              noun tradition
              1.
              the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
              "members of different castes have by tradition been associated with specific occupations"
              synonyms historical convention, unwritten law, oral history, heritage; More
              a long-established custom or belief that has been passed on from one generation to another.
              plural noun traditions
              "Japan's unique cultural traditions"
              synonyms custom, practice, convention, ritual, ceremony, observance, wont, routine, way, rule, usage, habit; More
              an artistic or literary method or style established by an artist, writer, or movement, and subsequently followed by others.
              "visionary works in the tradition of William Blake"
              synonyms style, movement, method
              "a poem in the tradition of Horace's ?Ars Poetica?"
              2.
              THEOLOGY
              a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular
              (in Christianity) doctrine not explicit in the Bible but held to derive from the oral teaching of Christ and the Apostles.
              (in Judaism) an ordinance of the oral law not in the Torah but held to have been given by God to Moses.
              (in Islam) a saying or act ascribed to the Prophet but not recorded in the Koran.

              Origin

              late Middle English from Old French tradicion, or from Latin traditio(n- ), from tradere ?deliver, betray?, from trans- ?across? + dare ?give?.

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              • The_SardarT Offline
                The_SardarT Offline
                The_Sardar
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Also here is something from another post about Khimar

                Salam/Peace everyone. I know it's been a while but i wan't to add something

                Some sectarian people always claim that in 2431, females must cover their heads but Allah/God (SWTAY) says in Al-Qur'an walyadribnabikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna ( ). Nowhere does it says cover their HEADS or HAIR (ash`?ri- ru'?si - ) and nowhere does it says it is sinful for the women not covering their heads.

                Plus the root definition of Khimar is to cover or veil something, brother Wakas once mentioned

                https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8900.msg30931#msg30931

                peace David,

                I did a little research on this previously, here are some notes

                list of occurrence

                From Lane

                Kha-Miim-Ra = cover/conceal/veil, become changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, something fermented/matured?

                Lane gives examples of ?the dwelling was hidden by the trees? & ?he concealed his testimony?.

                Its primary signification is 'to cover'.

                As far as I can tell, to say 'khumur' in 2431 means 'head cover' is an extrapolation. If one takes its core meaning, it simply means 'cover/veil'.

                ...and let them draw/set/cast (walyadribna) their veils/covers (bikhumurihinna) over (AAala) their breasts/bosom (juyoobihinna)...

                Kha-Miim-Ra is in the plural in this verse.

                I hope this has helped.

                Wakas
                Also this is from sister Samia

                https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14453.msg133395#msg133395

                I say "especially", because the verse "yudneena 3alaihinna min jalaabeebihinna" uses the preposition "min", not as part of the verb ( this verb is transitive and does not take a preposition), but because it means "some of; part of". Not the whole julbaab needs to be lowered, of course, but just part of it.

                Same thing could be applied to "khumurihinna" if God intended that part of it stays on the head and part of it be used to cover the bosom. Had He intended such a meaning, He would say yadribna min khumurihinna 3ala juyubihinna, especially that bi is not part of the verb. Bi here means either "with" or it is extra serving as emphasis. Either meaning we take for "bi" completely excludes "min=part of" and confirms the whole khimaar (whatever it is) be used to cover the bosom.

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                • The_SardarT Offline
                  The_SardarT Offline
                  The_Sardar
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Which leads to a question for brother Wakas, does your research on the root word of Khimar has made any progress since October 05, 2004? Do you still have the conclusion that "headcover" is a extrapolation by the traditionalists?

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                  • The_SardarT Offline
                    The_SardarT Offline
                    The_Sardar
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    It's alright everyone, i can wait. )

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                    • WakasW Offline
                      WakasW Offline
                      Wakas
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      My view is still the same. "headcover" is simply one possible meaning, and there is no evidence to indicate that is its meaning in Quran (it might be, might not be) but there is definitely no evidence mandating covering of the head/hair for women in Quran. They can choose to do this if they wish however.

                      LINK

                      All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                      • The_SardarT Offline
                        The_SardarT Offline
                        The_Sardar
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        My view is still the same. "headcover" is simply one possible meaning, and there is no evidence to indicate that is its meaning in Quran (it might be, might not be) but there is definitely no evidence mandating covering of the head/hair for women in Quran. They can choose to do this if they wish however.

                        LINK

                        The meaning "Headcover" you once said might be a extrapolation (added meaning) besides ra's & sha'r is not mentioned in the verse and also there is not verses saying that women are not allowed take off the so called "headcover" or it is a sin that women are not wearing "headcover", you can find that in the Septuagint Bible. I wonder, why did Lane put brackets in the pages of Kha-Miim-Ra (Vol 2 Page 444 & 445). Sister Samia once said that in Lisan Al Arab Ibn Manzur stated about Khimar It is said..... I also wonder if there is any ancient Arabic speaking about Khimar without connecting culture and just sticking the linguistic & the root definition?

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                        • The_SardarT Offline
                          The_SardarT Offline
                          The_Sardar
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Are there also good refutation against the "headcover" meaning that traditionalists trying to enforce that goes against Allah/God's (SWTAY) divine laws.

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                          • The_SardarT Offline
                            The_SardarT Offline
                            The_Sardar
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            In fact there is a another question in my mind, how do spread your "headcover" to the bosoms? "headcover" only covers the head. It's just language gymnastics.

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                            • J Offline
                              J Offline
                              Jafar
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Are there also good refutation against the "headcover" meaning that traditionalists trying to enforce that goes against Allah/God's (SWTAY) divine laws.

                              Human usually declare their law as 'divine' in order to borrow some authority thus no need to provide evidence and / or explanation for the background / motivation / justification of the law.

                              If a law is truly from God, then it is automatically enforced and there is NOT A SLIGHTEST CHANCE that anyone can go against it.

                              If let's say God decided that human female shall have no hair, then human female shall have no hair. PERIOD
                              If let's say God decided that human female shall have some hair but it will be covered with something then human female shall have their hair covered with something. PERIOD

                              God decided that human shall have no tail, then as we see today human have no tail. (At least most of them).
                              As we now have knowledge that all human genes carries some combination which could resulted in a tail, yet somehow it was turned off.

                              Thus the discussion can be oriented towards
                              WHY did they created a law for the female within their group to cover their hair?

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                              • The_SardarT Offline
                                The_SardarT Offline
                                The_Sardar
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                Yes people are to follow God's laws but he gave us free will and he will deal with those who broke the laws.

                                1099
                                Walaw shaa rabbuka laamana manfee al-ardi kulluhum jameeAAan afaanta tukrihu alnnasahatta yakoonoo mu/mineena
                                And had your Lord willed, all the people on the earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?

                                10100
                                Wama kana linafsin an tu/minailla bi-ithni Allahi wayajAAalu alrrijsaAAala allatheena la yaAAqiloona
                                And it is not for a soul to believe except with the permission of God. And He lets taint those who do not comprehend.

                                6149
                                Qul falillahi alhujjatu albalighatufalaw shaa lahadakum ajmaAAeena
                                Say "With God is the greatest argument. If He wished He would have guided you all."

                                1829
                                Waquli alhaqqu min rabbikum faman shaafalyu/min waman shaa falyakfur inna aAAtadnalilththalimeena naran ahatabihim suradiquha wa-in yastagheethoo yughathoobima-in kaalmuhli yashwee alwujooha bi/sa alshsharabuwasaat murtafaqan
                                And say "The truth is from your Lord, so let whoever desires believe, and whoever desires reject." We have prepared for the wicked a Fire whose walls will be surrounding them. And if they cry out, they are given a water like boiling oil which burns their faces. What a dreadful drink and what a miserable place!

                                1830
                                Inna allatheena amanoowaAAamiloo alssalihati inna lanudeeAAu ajra man ahsana AAamalan
                                Those who believe and do good works, We do not waste the reward of those who have done good work.

                                Qul falillahi alhujjatu albalighatufalaw shaa lahadakum ajmaAAeena
                                Say "With God is the greatest argument. If He wished He would have guided you all."

                                2256
                                La ikraha fee alddeeniqad tabayyana alrrushdu mina alghayyi faman yakfur bialttaghootiwayu/min biAllahi faqadi istamsaka bialAAurwatialwuthqa la infisama laha waAllahusameeAAun AAaleemun
                                There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.

                                6110
                                Wanuqallibu af-idatahum waabsarahumkama lam yu/minoo bihi awwala marratin wanatharuhumfee tughyanihim yaAAmahoona
                                We divert their hearts and eyesight, as they did not acknowledge it the first time; and We leave them wandering in their transgression.

                                6148
                                Sayaqoolu allatheena ashrakoo law shaaAllahu ma ashrakna wala abaonawala harramna min shay-in kathalikakaththaba allatheena min qablihim hattathaqoo ba/sana qul hal AAindakum min AAilminfatukhrijoohu lana in tattabiAAoona illa alththannawa-in antum illa takhrusoona
                                Those who are polytheists will say "If God wished, we would not have set up partners, nor would have our fathers, nor would we have made anything unlawful." Those before them lied in the same way, until they tasted Our might. Say "Do you have any knowledge to bring out to us? You only follow conjecture, you only guess."

                                7146
                                Saasrifu AAan ayatiyaallatheena yatakabbaroona fee al-ardi bighayri alhaqqiwa-in yaraw kulla ayatin la yu/minoo bihawa-in yaraw sabeela alrrushdi la yattakhithoohusabeelan wa-in yaraw sabeela alghayyi yattakhithoohusabeelan thalika bi-annahum kaththaboo bi-ayatinawakanoo AAanha ghafileena
                                I will turn away from My revelations those who are arrogant on the earth without right, and if they see every sign they do not believe in it, and if they see the path of guidance they do not take it as a path; and if they see the path of mischief, they take it as a path. That is because they have denied Our revelations and were heedless of them.

                                26
                                Inna allatheena kafaroo sawaonAAalayhim aanthartahum am lam tunthirhum layu/minoona
                                As for those who rejected, whether you warned them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

                                27
                                Khatama Allahu AAala quloobihimwaAAala samAAihim waAAala absarihim ghishawatunwalahum AAathabun AAatheemun
                                God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes are covers. They will incur a great retribution.

                                4137
                                Inna allatheena amanoo thummakafaroo thumma amanoo thumma kafaroo thumma izdadookufran lam yakuni Allahu liyaghfira lahum walaliyahdiyahum sabeelan
                                Those who believed, then rejected, then believed, then rejected, then they increased in rejection; God was not to forgive them nor to guide them to the path.

                                4138
                                Bashshiri almunafiqeena bi-annalahum AAathaban aleeman
                                Give news to the hypocrites that they will have a painful retribution.

                                4139
                                Allatheena yattakhithoona alkafireenaawliyaa min dooni almu/mineena ayabtaghoona AAindahumualAAizzata fa-inna alAAizzata lillahi jameeAAan
                                Those who take the rejecters as allies instead of the believers "Do they seek glory with them?" All glory belongs to God.

                                4140
                                Waqad nazzala AAalaykum fee alkitabian itha samiAAtum ayati Allahiyukfaru biha wayustahzao biha fala taqAAudoomaAAahum hatta yakhoodoo fee hadeethinghayrihi innakum ithan mithluhum inna Allaha jamiAAualmunafiqeena waalkafireena fee jahannamajameeAAan
                                And it has been sent down to you in the Book, that if you hear the revelations of God being rejected and mocked, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different narrative; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together.

                                386
                                Kayfa yahdee Allahu qawman kafaroobaAAda eemanihim washahidoo anna alrrasoola haqqunwajaahumu albayyinatu waAllahu layahdee alqawma alththalimeena
                                How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they had witnessed that the messenger was true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.

                                387
                                Ola-ika jazaohum annaAAalayhim laAAnata Allahi waalmala-ikati waalnnasiajmaAAeena
                                To these the punishment will be that the curse of God will be upon them and that of the angels and the people all together!

                                388
                                Khalideena feeha layukhaffafu AAanhumu alAAathabu wala hum yuntharoona
                                Abiding therein, the retribution will not be lightened for them, nor will they be reprieved.

                                389
                                Illa allatheena taboomin baAAdi thalika waaslahoo fa-inna Allahaghafoorun raheemun
                                Except those who repent after this and make amends, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.

                                28
                                Wamina alnnasi man yaqoolu amannabiAllahi wabialyawmi al-akhiri wamahum bimu/mineena
                                And from the people are those who say "We believed in God and in the Last Day," but they are not believers.

                                29
                                YukhadiAAoona Allaha waallatheenaamanoo wama yakhdaAAoona illa anfusahum wamayashAAuroona
                                They seek to deceive God and those who believed, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.

                                210
                                Fee quloobihim maradun fazadahumuAllahu maradan walahum AAathabun aleemun bimakanoo yakthiboona
                                In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied.

                                554
                                Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooman yartadda minkum AAan deenihi fasawfa ya/tee Allahubiqawmin yuhibbuhum wayuhibboonahu athillatinAAala almu/mineena aAAizzatin AAala alkafireenayujahidoona fee sabeeli Allahi wala yakhafoonalawmata la-imin thalika fadlu Allahiyu/teehi man yashao waAllahu wasiAAunAAaleemun
                                O you who believe, whoever from among you turns away from His system, then God will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him; humble towards the believers, proud towards the rejecters; they strive in the cause of God and do not fear to be blamed by those who blame. This is the grace of God, He bestows it upon whom He wills; God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

                                16104
                                Inna allatheena la yu/minoonabi-ayati Allahi la yahdeehimu Allahuwalahum AAathabun aleemun
                                Those who do not believe in the revelations of God, God will not guide them, and they will have a painful retribution.

                                16105
                                Innama yaftaree alkathibaallatheena la yu/minoona bi-ayati Allahiwaola-ika humu alkathiboona
                                Inventing fabrications is only done by those who do not believe in the revelations of God; and these are the liars.

                                16106
                                Man kafara biAllahi minbaAAdi eemanihi illa man okriha waqalbuhu mutma-innunbial-eemani walakin man sharaha bialkufrisadran faAAalayhim ghadabun mina Allahiwalahum AAathabun AAatheemun
                                Whoever rejects God after having believed - except for he who is forced while his heart is still content with belief - and has comforted his chest towards rejection, then these will have a wrath from God and they will have a great retribution.

                                16107
                                Thalika bi-annahumu istahabbooalhayata alddunya AAala al-akhiratiwaanna Allaha la yahdee alqawma alkafireena
                                That is because they have preferred the worldly life over the Hereafter, and God does not guide the rejecting people.

                                16108
                                Ola-ika allatheena tabaAAaAllahu AAala quloobihim wasamAAihim waabsarihimwaola-ika humu alghafiloona
                                Those are the ones whom God has stamped on their hearts, and their hearing, and their sight, and these are the unaware ones.

                                16109
                                La jarama annahum fee al-akhiratihumu alkhasiroona
                                Without doubt, in the Hereafter they are the losers.

                                16110
                                Thumma inna rabbaka lillatheena hajaroomin baAAdi ma futinoo thumma jahadoo wasabarooinna rabbaka min baAAdiha laghafoorun raheemun
                                Then your Lord is; for those who emigrated after they were persecuted, then they strived and were patient; your Lord is, after that, Forgiver, Merciful.

                                16111
                                Yawma ta/tee kullu nafsin tujadiluAAan nafsiha watuwaffa kullu nafsin maAAamilat wahum la yuthlamoona
                                The Day every soul will come to argue for itself, and every soul will be paid in full for what it did, and they will not be wronged.

                                Besides Allah/God (SWTAY) stated himself in Qur'an is a revelation that is of divine inspiration

                                531
                                Waalnnajmi itha hawa
                                And as the star fell away.

                                532
                                Ma dalla sahibukum wamaghawa
                                Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.

                                533
                                Wama yantiqu AAani alhawa
                                Nor does he speak from personal desire.

                                534
                                In huwa illa wahyun yooha
                                It is a divine inspiration.

                                5675
                                Fala oqsimu bimawaqiAAi alnnujoomi
                                I do swear by the positions of the stars.

                                5676
                                Wa-innahu laqasamun law taAAlamoona AAatheemun
                                This is an oath, if only you knew, that is great.

                                5677
                                Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
                                It is an honorable Qur'an.

                                5678
                                Fee kitabin maknoonin
                                In a protected Book.

                                5679
                                La yamassuhu illa almutahharoona
                                None can grasp it except those purified.

                                5680
                                Tanzeelun min rabbi alAAalameena
                                A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.

                                5681
                                Afabihatha alhadeethi antummudhinoona
                                Are you disregarding this hadith?

                                5682
                                WatajAAaloona rizqakum annakum tukaththiboona
                                And you have your provisions, yet you are denying?

                                8521
                                Bal huwa qur-anun majeedun
                                No,it is a glorious Qur'an.

                                8522
                                Fee lawhin mahfoothin
                                In a tablet, preserved.

                                402
                                Tanzeelu alkitabi mina AllahialAAazeezi alAAaleemi
                                The revelation of the Book is from God, the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

                                Some key words in bold

                                Wahyun

                                Waw-Ha-Ya = to indicate/reveal/suggest, point out, put a thing into (the mind), despatch a messenger, inspire, speak secretly, hasten, make sign, sign swiftly, suggest with speed, write, say something in a whisper tone so that only the hearer hears it clearly but not the person standing close to him.

                                Wahyun (n.) Revelation; Swift sign; Inspiration; Written thing; Divine inspiration.
                                Auhaa (prf 3rd. p. m. sing.) He revealed, inspired, signified by gesture, wrote.
                                Auhaitu (prf 1st. p. m. sing. IV.) I revealed.
                                Auhainaa (prf. 1st. p. plu. IV.) We revealed.
                                Yuuhii (imp. 3rd. p. m. sing. IV) Suggests, whispers.
                                Yuuhuuna (imp. 3rd. p. m. plu.) They whisper.
                                Nuhii (imp. 1st. p. plu. II.) We reveal.
                                Uhiya (pp. 3rd. p. m. sing. IV.) Was revealed.
                                Yuuha (pip. 3rd. p. m. sing. IV.) Is revealed.
                                Yuuhaa (pip. 3rd. p. m. sing. juss.) Is inspired.

                                waha vb. (1)
                                wahy n. vb. 1137, 20114, 2145, 2327, 4251, 534

                                awha vb. (4)
                                perf. act. 4163, 4163, 4163, 5111, 7117, 7160, 102, 1087, 123, 1215, 1330, 1413, 1668, 16123, 1739, 1773, 1786, 1911, 2038, 2077, 2173, 2327, 2652, 2663, 287, 3531, 4112, 427, 4213, 4252, 5310, 5310, 995
                                impf. act. 344, 6112, 6121, 812, 1149, 12102, 12109, 1643, 217, 2125, 3450, 423, 4251
                                perf. pass. 619, 693, 6106, 6145, 1136, 1827, 2048, 2945, 3965, 4343, 721
                                impf. pass. 650, 693, 7203, 1015, 10109, 1112, 18110, 2013, 2038, 21108, 332, 3870, 416, 469, 534

                                Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 304 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=wHy

                                Tanzeelun

                                Nun-Zay-Lam = to descend, come down, go down, happen, alight at, settle in a place, lodge. anzala - to send down, give. nazulun - that which is prepared for a guest's entertainment, abode, gift. manzil - mansion, station. nazzala - to cause to descend, send down. tanziil - sending down, divine revelation, orderly arrangement and authentic compilation, gradual revelation.

                                nazala vb. (1)
                                perf. act. 17105, 26193, 37177, 5716
                                impf. act. 342, 574

                                manazil n.f. (pl. of manzil) 105, 3639

                                nazlah n.f. 5313

                                nuzul n.m. (pl. of nazl) 3198, 18102, 18107, 3219, 3762, 4132, 5656, 5693

                                nazzala vb. (2)
                                perf. act. 223, 2297, 2176, 33, 447, 4136, 4140, 67, 6111, 771, 7196, 159, 1689, 16102, 1795, 17106, 2080, 251, 26198, 2963, 3923, 4311, 4726, 509, 679, 7623
                                impf. act. 290, 3151, 4153, 5112, 637, 681, 733, 811, 158, 1521, 162, 16101, 1782, 1793, 2271, 2443, 264, 3024, 3134, 4013, 4227, 4228, 579
                                perf. pass. 637, 156, 1644, 2525, 4331, 472, 4720
                                impf. pass. 2105, 393, 5101, 964, 3049
                                n.vb. 17106, 204, 2525, 26192, 322, 365, 391, 402, 412, 4142, 452, 462, 5680, 6943, 7623
                                pcple. act. 5115
                                pcple. pass. 6114

                                anzala (1) vb. (4)
                                impv. 2329
                                pcple. act. 1259, 2329
                                pcple. pass. 2329

                                anzala (2) vb. (4)
                                perf. act. 222, 241, 257, 259, 290, 291, 299, 2159, 2164, 2170, 2174, 2213, 2231, 33, 34, 37, 353, 3154, 461, 4105, 4113, 4136, 4166, 4166, 4174, 544, 544, 545, 547, 547, 548, 548, 549, 549, 5104, 68, 691, 691, 692, 693, 699, 6114, 6155, 726, 757, 7160, 841, 926, 926, 940, 997, 1024, 1059, 1094, 122, 1240, 1317, 1337, 141, 1432, 1522, 1590, 1610, 1624, 1630, 1644, 1664, 1665, 17102, 17105, 181, 1845, 202, 2053, 20113, 2110, 2150, 225, 2216, 2263, 2318, 2324, 241, 241, 2434, 2446, 256, 2548, 2760, 2824, 2947, 2951, 3035, 3110, 3121, 3326, 3527, 3615, 3628, 3829, 392, 396, 3921, 3941, 4114, 4139, 4215, 4217, 443, 455, 479, 484, 4818, 4826, 5323, 5669, 5725, 5725, 585, 5921, 648, 655, 6510, 7814, 971
                                impf. act. 693
                                impv. 5114
                                perf. pass. 24, 24, 291, 2102, 2136, 2136, 2185, 2285, 365, 372, 384, 384, 3199, 3199, 460, 460, 4162, 4162, 559, 559, 564, 566, 567, 568, 581, 583, 68, 6156, 6157, 72, 73, 7157, 986, 9124, 9127, 1020, 1112, 1114, 131, 137, 1319, 1327, 1336, 257, 2551, 2887, 2946, 2946, 2950, 346, 388, 3955, 4630, 4720
                                pcple. act. 2934, 3628, 5669
                                pcple. pass. 3124

                                tanazzala vb. (5)
                                perf. act. 26210
                                impf. act. 1964, 26221, 26222, 4130, 6512, 974

                                Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 285, 286 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=nzl

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                                0
                                • J Offline
                                  J Offline
                                  Jafar
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Yes people are to follow God's laws but he gave us free will and he will deal with those who broke the laws.

                                  If it can be broken then it's not God's law, it's simple as that.

                                  If it is a 'choice' then it's a recommendation / advice out of given context.

                                  • Be careful, the road is slippery ahead, if you're not careful you can fell down the cliff and die.
                                  • Do not consume heroin, it would jeopardize your nerve system and it causes addiction.
                                  • Don't be arrogant, as arrogance is close to ignorance.
                                  • Cover your entire body with a wet suit when you dive underwater, there are many jellyfishes under the sea which can sting and stun your entire body.

                                  Those are recommendation / advice, it's all can be explained, the mechanism or consequences is automatically in place for those who doesn't heed the advice, nobody need to do anything to make Heroin jeopardize human nerve systems, that is if the recommendation / advice is indeed true. There's absolutely no need to justify with "Because God said so, and God will be angry and torture you if you don't heed the advice".

                                  Now back to the main point
                                  "Why did they want their female to cover their hair"?

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                                  • The_SardarT Offline
                                    The_SardarT Offline
                                    The_Sardar
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    If it can be broken then it's not God's law, it's simple as that.

                                    Actually that is very confusing to me, how exactly is that simple? Although the word law may not be mention (i could be wrong), God does gives us rules in the Qur'an and i have not seen a verse saying that his rules cannot be broken or something like that. Whether follow God's rules or not, it can be choice between these two and i choose the first one (follow Allah/God's rules). Salam/Peace.

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                                    • The_SardarT Offline
                                      The_SardarT Offline
                                      The_Sardar
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      Anyway back to the point, i don't want this to stray off topic.

                                      "Why did they want their female to cover their hair"?

                                      That is sadly unknown to me but the only conclusion i can think is of misogynistic reasons.

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                                      • The_SardarT Offline
                                        The_SardarT Offline
                                        The_Sardar
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        I know it's been awhile but i think i have forgotten to mention is that there is no mention headcover is being forbidden to be taken off and no punishment as well.

                                        Also the word head/rs ( - i found it in 2094) or hair/sha'r ( - i found it in 1680) is not mentioned in 2431 nor 3353.

                                        Apologies if the arabic derivative is not the specific one. My knowledge of Arabic is still at amateur level.

                                        By the way i found this

                                        https//factszz.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/does-noble-quran-ordain-a-lady-to-cover-her-head-or-her-face-read-the-truth/

                                        Salam/Peace & Allah/God (SWTAY) bless you all.

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                                        • R Offline
                                          R Offline
                                          Rilum
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Salam/Peace everyone.

                                          I guess it means that the should cover their "adornment" e.g. their breasts.

                                          Maybe.

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