Did staff of Moses (AS) really turn into snake?

NK

Peace all,

I would like all of you to watch this short clip. it is very interesting analysis. I have similar understanding regarding Moses staff.

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkP3itoSKJc

Regards,
Nk

The_Sardar

It would have been better if he mentioned the chapters & the verses so we can verify it.

huruf

Isn't there a written version of it or can you give short abstract of it?

Salaam

The_Sardar

Okay i found 3 verses that mentions the snake or serpent as Abu Layth Al-Maliki mentioned and it's 7107, 2020 and 2632 and i think it's best that i should show the verses with context in arabic because i am uncertain the translation for this topic and it's going to be a long list so please, have patience and read

7100
Awa lam yahdi lillatheena yarithoonaal-arda min baAAdi ahliha an law nashao asabnahumbithunoobihim wanatbaAAu AAala quloobihimfahum la yasmaAAoona

7101
Tilka alqura naqussu AAalaykamin anba-iha walaqad jaat-hum rusuluhum bialbayyinatifama kanoo liyu/minoo bima kaththaboomin qablu kathalika yatbaAAu Allahu AAalaquloobi alkafireena

7102
Wama wajadna li-aktharihimmin AAahdin wa-in wajadna aktharahum lafasiqeena

7103
Thumma baAAathna min baAAdihim moosabi-ayatina ila firAAawna wamala-ihifathalamoo biha faonuthurkayfa kana AAaqibatu almufsideena

7104
Waqala moosa yafirAAawnu innee rasoolun min rabbi alAAalameena

7105
Haqeequn AAala an laaqoola AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa qadji/tukum bibayyinatin min rabbikum faarsil maAAiya banee isra-eela

7106
Qala in kunta ji/ta bi-ayatinfa/ti biha in kunta mina alssadiqeena

7107
Faalqa AAasahu fa-ithahiya thuAAbanun mubeenun

7108
WanazaAAa yadahu fa-itha hiya baydaolilnnathireena

7109
Qala almalao min qawmi firAAawnainna hatha lasahirun AAaleemun

7110
Yureedu an yukhrijakum min ardikumfamatha ta/muroona

7111
Qaloo arjih waakhahu waarsilfee almada-ini hashireena

7112
Ya/tooka bikulli sahirin AAaleemin

7113
Wajaa alssaharatufirAAawna qaloo inna lana laajran in kunnanahnu alghalibeena

7114
Qala naAAam wa-innakum laminaalmuqarrabeena

7115
Qaloo ya moosa immaan tulqiya wa-imma an nakoona nahnu almulqeena

7116
Qala alqoo falamma alqaw saharooaAAyuna alnnasi waistarhaboohum wajaoobisihrin AAatheemin

7117
Waawhayna ila moosaan alqi AAasaka fa-itha hiya talqafu maya/fikoona

7118
FawaqaAAa alhaqqu wabatala makanoo yaAAmaloona

7119
Faghuliboo hunalika wainqalaboosaghireena

7120
Waolqiya alssaharatu sajideena

7121
Qaloo amanna birabbialAAalameena

7122
Rabbi moosa waharoona

209
Wahal ataka hadeethu moosa

2010
Ith raa naran faqalali-ahlihi omkuthoo innee anastu naran laAAallee ateekumminha biqabasin aw ajidu AAala alnnarihudan

2011
Falamma ataha noodiya yamoosa

2012
Innee ana rabbuka faikhlaAAnaAAlayka innaka bialwadi almuqaddasi tuwan

2013
Waana ikhtartuka faistamiAAlima yooha

2014
Innanee ana Allahu lailaha illa ana faoAAbudnee waaqimi alssalatalithikree

2015
Inna alssaAAata atiyatunakadu okhfeeha litujza kullu nafsin bimatasAAa

2016
Fala yasuddannaka AAanhaman la yu/minu biha waittabaAAa hawahufatarda

2017
Wama tilka biyameenika ya moosa

2018
Qala hiya AAasaya atawakkaoAAalayha waahushshu biha AAala ghanameewaliya feeha maaribu okhra

2019
Qala alqiha ya moosa

2020
Faalqaha fa-itha hiya hayyatuntasAAa

Here is something i noticed, Hayyatun (&#1577 come from the root word Ha-Ya-Ya ( &#1610 and from what i seen in PRL (Project Root-List) it does not mentioned the meaning snake or serpent

Ha-Ya-Ya = (a doubly imperfect verb) To live, be alive, be ashamed, spend (the night) awake, fertilize the earth, keep anyone alive; spare any one, let anyone alive, remove prudency, modesty and shamefulness, make immodest, To be in good condition, have the means of subsistence, to be apparent or distinct, have prolonged or preserved life, free from evil or harm, have dominion, be honored, receive benefit, to salute, to enliven/revive/give life to, to nourish, vivify/re-vivify/revive/resuscitate, endue/quicken with life, (said of land) to be tilled and made productive, to remain awake, to shrink from a thing, to forbear, to feel or have a sense of or be moved or affected with shame/shyness/bashfulness, be ashamed/shy of doing a thing, disdain or scorn a thing, abstain from a thing/refuse to do it. (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)

2021
Qala khuthha walatakhaf sanuAAeeduha seerataha al-oola

2022
Waodmum yadaka ila janahikatakhruj baydaa min ghayri soo-in ayatan okhra

2023
Linuriyaka min ayatinaalkubra

2024
Ithhab ila firAAawna innahu tagha

2025
Qala rabbi ishrah lee sadree

2026
Wayassir lee amree

2027
Waohlul AAuqdatan min lisanee

2028
Yafqahoo qawlee

2029
WaijAAal lee wazeeran min ahlee

2030
Haroona akhee

2031
Oshdud bihi azree

2032
Waashrik-hu fee amree

2033
Kay nusabbihaka katheeran

2034
Wanathkuraka katheeran

2035
Innaka kunta bina baseeran

2036
Qala qad ooteeta su/laka yamoosa

2037
Walaqad mananna AAalayka marratanokhra

2038
Ith awhayna ilaommika ma yooha

2039
Ani iqthifeehi fee alttabootifaiqthifeehi fee alyammi falyulqihi alyammu bialssahiliya/khuthhu AAaduwwun lee waAAaduwwun lahu waalqaytuAAalayka mahabbatan minnee walitusnaAAa AAalaAAaynee

2040
Ith tamshee okhtuka fataqoolu haladullukum AAala man yakfuluhu farajaAAnaka ilaommika kay taqarra AAaynuha wala tahzanawaqatalta nafsan fanajjaynaka mina alghammi wafatannakafutoonan falabithta sineena fee ahli madyana thumma ji/ta AAalaqadarin ya moosa

2041
WaistanaAAtuka linafsee

2042
Ithhab anta waakhooka bi-ayateewala taniya fee thikree

2043
Ithhaba ila firAAawnainnahu tagha

2044
Faqoola lahu qawlan layyinanlaAAallahu yatathakkaru aw yakhsha

2045
Qala rabbana innananakhafu an yafruta AAalayna aw an yatgha

2046
Qala la takhafainnanee maAAakuma asmaAAu waara

2047
Fa/tiyahu faqoola innarasoola rabbika faarsil maAAana banee isra-eelawala tuAAaththibhum qad ji/naka bi-ayatinmin rabbika waalssalamu AAala mani ittabaAAaalhuda

2048
Inna qad oohiya ilaynaanna alAAathaba AAala man kaththaba watawalla

2049
Qala faman rabbukuma yamoosa

2050
Qala rabbuna allatheeaAAta kulla shay-in khalqahu thumma hada

2051
Qala fama balualqurooni al-oola

2052
Qala AAilmuha AAinda rabbeefee kitabin la yadillu rabbee walayansa

2610
Wa-ith nada rabbukamoosa ani i/ti alqawma alththalimeena

2611
Qawma firAAawna ala yattaqoona

2612
Qala rabbi innee akhafu anyukaththibooni

2613
Wayadeequ sadree walayantaliqu lisanee faarsil ila haroona

2614
Walahum AAalayya thanbun faakhafuan yaqtulooni

2615
Qala kalla faithhababi-ayatina inna maAAakum mustamiAAoona

2616
Fa/tiya firAAawna faqoola innarasoolu rabbi alAAalameena

2617
An arsil maAAana banee isra-eela

2618
Qala alam nurabbika feenawaleedan walabithta feena min AAumurika sineena

2619
WafaAAalta faAAlataka allatee faAAaltawaanta mina alkafireena

2620
Qala faAAaltuha ithanwaana mina alddalleena

2621
Fafarartu minkum lamma khiftukumfawahaba lee rabbee hukman wajaAAalanee mina almursaleena

2622
Watilka niAAmatun tamunnuha AAalayyaan AAabbadta banee isra-eela

2623
Qala firAAawnu wama rabbu alAAalameena

2624
Qala rabbu alssamawatiwaal-ardi wama baynahuma in kuntummooqineena

2625
Qala liman hawlahu alatastamiAAoona

2626
Qala rabbukum warabbu aba-ikumual-awwaleena

2627
Qala inna rasoolakumu allatheeorsila ilaykum lamajnoonun

2628
Qala rabbu almashriqi waalmaghribiwama baynahuma in kuntum taAAqiloona

2629
Qala la-ini ittakhathta ilahanghayree laajAAalannaka mina almasjooneena

2630
Qala awa law ji/tuka bishay-in mubeenin

2631
Qala fa/ti bihi in kunta mina alssadiqeena

2632
Faalqa AAasahu fa-ithahiya thuAAbanun mubeenun

2633
WanazaAAa yadahu fa-itha hiya baydaolilnnathireena

2634
Qala lilmala-i hawlahu inna hathalasahirun AAaleemun

2635
Yureedu an yukhrijakum min ardikumbisihrihi famatha ta/muroona

2636
Qaloo arjih waakhahu waibAAathfee almada-ini hashireena

2637
Ya/tooka bikulli sahharin AAaleemin

2638
FajumiAAa alssaharatu limeeqatiyawmin maAAloomin

2639
Waqeela lilnnasi hal antummujtamiAAoona

2640
LaAAallana nattabiAAu alssaharatain kanoo humu alghalibeena

2641
Falamma jaa alssaharatuqaloo lifirAAawna a-inna lana laajran in kunnanahnu alghalibeena

2642
Qala naAAam wa-innakum ithanlamina almuqarrabeena

2643
Qala lahum moosa alqoo maantum mulqoona

2644
Faalqaw hibalahum waAAisiyyahumwaqaloo biAAizzati firAAawna inna lanahnualghaliboona

2645
Faalqa moosa AAasahufa-itha hiya talqafu ma ya/fikoona

2646
Faolqiya alssaharatu sajideena

2647
Qaloo amanna birabbialAAalameena

2648
Rabbi moosa waharoona

2645
Faalqa moosa AAasahufa-itha hiya talqafu ma ya/fikoona

Now here is something interesting, talqafu (&#1601 in in it's root word (Lam-Qaf-Fa - &#1601 means To catch up hurriedly, seize, swallow up quickly, destroy, undo, eat up, catch and retain, collapse, fall upon the enemy, crumble down and Ya/Fikoona in it's root word (Alif-Fa-Kaf - &#1603 means

change its manner/state, turn it away/back, change/pervert opinion/judgement, deceive, lie/falsehood/untruth, overturn, seduce.

And look at that the derivatives!

Ya'fikuuna (imp. 3rd. p. m. plu.) They feign, make a false show.
Ta'fiku (imp. 2nd. p. m. plu.) Thou turn away, seduce.
Tu'fikuuna (pip. 2nd. p. plu.) You are turned away.
Ufika (pp. 3rd. p. m. sing.) He was turned away, was deluded away.
Yu'faku (pip. 3rd. p. m. sing.) He is turned away.
Yu'fakuuna (pip. 3rd. p. m. plu.) They are turned away.
Ifkun (n.) Lie; Slander.
Affaak (n) Big slanderer.
Mu'tafikatu (ap-der. f. sing. VIII) Subverted; Overturned; Pulled down (city).
Mu'taftUt (ap-der. f. plu. VIII) Subverted.

The_Sardar

Honestly i think Mufti Abu Layth al-Maliki might be on the right track. Hopefully someone who is better at this could either verify or find something similar to uncover the truth of the 9th century false hadith.

P.S I can't read arabic so i posted this long list of verses in arabic so someone with greater Arabic knowlegde can investigate this.

The_Sardar

Peace all,

I would like all of you to watch this short clip. it is very interesting analysis. I have similar understanding regarding Moses staff.

Salam/Peace NK. Could you give us your understanding regarding Moses staff.

Rilum

Peace all,

in 2710 and 2831 the word "jann" could be the singular of Jinn.

Rilum

Can one read "thu'bnun" as a verb, like "thu'bna", which means like "He gave vent to it; or made it to flow forth, run, or stream; namely, water, (S, A, K,) and blood, and the like." (Lane) in 2632 and 7107?

http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=vEb&fromdoc=Perseustext2002.02.0018

The_Sardar

Can one read "thu'bnun" as a verb, like "thu'bna", which means like "He gave vent to it; or made it to flow forth, run, or stream; namely, water, (S, A, K,) and blood, and the like." (Lane) in 2632 and 7107?

http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=vEb&fromdoc=Perseustext2002.02.0018

I am not sure, i checked Quranix grammar on 2632 & 7107

2632
thu`b?nun (&#1606
masculine definite INDEF nominative noun http//quranix.org/26#32

7107
thu`b?nun (&#1606
masculine definite INDEF nominative noun http//quranix.org/7#107

huruf

So, in fac t, what does the mufti say? Does he see it as a miracle, as a symbolic meaning, as an idiom, what is his take?

Salaam

NK

Peace Sardar,

I can share my understanding much much better in Urdu as compared to in English but i still try my best. At any point you don't understand please let me know and i will try again.

There are basically two things in God's scheme in the story of Moses and Pharos. One is to show people that magic is false and has no divine power and then spread the message of ones of God through his messenger logically.

If you got the chance to read the ancient Egyptians history you would realise that Pharos were the gods and then the next category were Priests. Those priests were basically good scientist or engineers OR they get help from scientist and engineers to show people that they have divine powers from Pharos. Engineers or scientist don't tell priests how they did and priest never tell people about the reality. They need to show them some magic to get the believe on them that those powers given by Pharos. Those priest were basically act as a connection between Pharos and ordinary people.

For example, they had a system that if someone wants to enter the temple the doors open automatically just like when you go to shopping centre and doors open for you. They had underneath the temples a hydraulic system which activates when someone put weight on the specific rock. Similarly in the temple they need to wash the hands but not with ordinary water but with holy water. They need to put the coin in a small pot like thing which have simple lever system working in it. Due to the weight of the coin the lever push down and the specific amount of water flows from the opening and fills the cup. When the coin slips and fall in the pot the water stopped. Just like our vending machines. One last example that they have singing birds which runs the concept of cool steam. When cold steam comes out of the nostrils of the hand made birds it seems like birds are singing.

Why am i telling you these things to prove that at that time all those things were magic for ordinary illiterate people. They don't know how those things works. You can see the Egyptians Pyramids these days to realise how much advanced they were on their time.

Now comeback to the original topic. It can't be co-incident of the following things

When Moses got the first revelation he saw fire and all his conversation with God was around the fire. Again support the theory that his staff was filled with mercury which i strongly believe that given by his step father Pharo. He was brought up in Pharo's temple but he was not interested in magic.
When God asked Moses to threw staff it moved like snake. It didn't turn into snake but moved "LIKE" snake. Two times in the Quran Allah mentioned it which again support this theory.
God replied in chapter 20 verse 21 . God used the word "" and not "" which means staff "" was changed again supports the theory.
The time which magicians choose for competition was interesting.
God knew before that Pharos would not be impressed by this act and in order to defeat Moses he would gather people to show them that he had greater magician then Moses in order to strengthen his grip. This is the time to expose their lies. People would never believe Moses until their lies not exposed.
When Moses got those two signs from God the verses after that were very interesting in chapter 20. He said Moses] said, "My Lord, expand for me my breast (25) And ease for me my task (26) And untie the knot from my tongue (27) That they may understand my speech. (2. Again support my theory that God's scheme was to expose their lies and then spread the message of God.

This is my understanding. People don't have to agree with me but it is more logical.

Peace,
NK

huruf

I do not think anything can be proved about the story of Musa and Fir3awn studying the history of Anciente Egypt, because nothing tin the Qur'an suggests that Musa was there or that those wvents took pace in Egypt or that the kings of Egypt were in any way involved in them. Fir3awn is at most a small city lord of some place, but not of Wfypt least o all king of Egypt.

Also, a lot can be read about the history of Acient Egypt but a big trouble with it is that it is mostly shaped from what the Bible and, less but also, the ideas shaped by Roman and Greek cultural conceptions. One has to pick very carefully about what one reads concerning Ancient Egyptian history.

So, we are back to square one To prove or understand the Qur'an we should stick to the Qur'an and sound reasonning. Bringing purported history into the fray will set us back into importing ,once more, bilbical understandings into the Qur'an, without taking duly into account what the Qur'an itself is there to convey.

So, I am asking again, if anybody feels like answering, of course as they see it

What is it with Musa and his staff, is it a miracle, is it a symbolic spiritual meaning, is it an idiom or some idioms?

Salaam

The_Sardar

When Moses got the first revelation he saw fire and all his conversation with God was around the fire. Again support the theory that his staff was filled with mercury which i strongly believe that given by his step father Pharo. He was brought up in Pharo's temple but he was not interested in magic.
When God asked Moses to threw staff it moved like snake. It didn't turn into snake but moved "LIKE" snake. Two times in the Quran Allah mentioned it which again support this theory.
God replied in chapter 20 verse 21 . God used the word "" and not "" which means staff "" was changed again supports the theory.
The time which magicians choose for competition was interesting.
God knew before that Pharos would not be impressed by this act and in order to defeat Moses he would gather people to show them that he had greater magician then Moses in order to strengthen his grip. This is the time to expose their lies. People would never believe Moses until their lies not exposed.
When Moses got those two signs from God the verses after that were very interesting in chapter 20. He said Moses] said, "My Lord, expand for me my breast (25) And ease for me my task (26) And untie the knot from my tongue (27) That they may understand my speech. (2. Again support my theory that God's scheme was to expose their lies and then spread the message of God.

What are the arabic words? So i can show everyone the root word meanings.

Edit* I found one of them which i think it's seerataha (&#1575

Siin-Ya-Ra ( &#1585 = to go, travel, be current, move, journey. sairun - the act of giving, journey. siratun - state/condition, make/form. sayyaratun - company of travellers, caravan.

sara vb. (1)
perf. act. 2829
impf. act. 12109, 2246, 309, 3544, 4021, 4082, 4710, 5210
impv. 3137, 611, 1636, 2769, 2920, 3042, 3418
n.vb. 3418, 5210

sayyarah n.f. 596, 1210, 1219

sirah n.f. 2021

sayyara vb. (2) impf. act. 1022, 1847
perf. pass. 1331, 7820, 813

LL, V4, p 207, 208 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=syr

NK

Peace Sardar,

Please check Lane?s dictionary, you will find few examples.

Salam
NK

The_Sardar

Peace Sardar,

Please check Lane?s dictionary, you will find few examples.

Salam
NK

Salam/Peace i will post the pages from Lane's Lexicon of Siin-Ra-Yaa

http//ejtaal.net/aa/img/ll/15/ll-1530.png

http//ejtaal.net/aa/img/ll/15/ll-1531.png

IsaMuslim

I do not think anything can be proved about the story of Musa and Fir3awn studying the history of Anciente Egypt, because nothing tin the Qur'an suggests that Musa was there or that those wvents took pace in Egypt or that the kings of Egypt were in any way involved in them. Fir3awn is at most a small city lord of some place, but not of Wfypt least o all king of Egypt.

Also, a lot can be read about the history of Acient Egypt but a big trouble with it is that it is mostly shaped from what the Bible and, less but also, the ideas shaped by Roman and Greek cultural conceptions. One has to pick very carefully about what one reads concerning Ancient Egyptian history.

Peace,

how do you explain that Egypt was always called "Misr" from waaay long before the Qur'an?

Why would Allah call another place "Misr" if the people of that time knew "Misr" as Egypt? Where is Misr if it is not Egypt, what is the Qur'anic evidence that it is not?

The Qur'anic evidence that it is indeed Egypt, or a part of it, is present today

The Qur'an says that the body of Pharaoh was preserved and made as a sign for us, Maurice Bucaille found the body of a Pharaoh named Ramses II whose autopsy revealed that he died from drowning, and a while later it was made into a mummy.

The Qur'an also mentioned Haman, and after centuries of Christians mocking the Qur'an because Haman in the Bible is another character, ancient hieroglyphs showed clearly the name "Haman" as the chief of the stone quarry workers.

The Qur'an also mentioned that Haman was commanded to build a tower, using baked clay, and recently a group of scientist discovered that some parts of the pyramid of Giza are not entirely made of limestone, but of baked clay.
https//www.livescience.com/1554-surprising-truth-great-pyramids-built.html

So, we are back to square one To prove or understand the Qur'an we should stick to the Qur'an and sound reasonning. Bringing purported history into the fray will set us back into importing ,once more, bilbical understandings into the Qur'an, without taking duly into account what the Qur'an itself is there to convey.

Mohammed was not in doubt about the Book of Moses reaching him

And We have given Moses the Book; so do not be in any doubt about meeting Him its reaching; and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel.
3223

Jesus was also taught the Torah

And He teaches him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.
348

We should not reject the Biblical Books that easy, in them is still the Guidance. Said that, in them there is also the additions and omission of men. We are the readers and we must be wise in interpreting it, and not rejecting it altogether. The Qur'an is the last Book of the Bible, and their verses are often linked together.
The Qur'an was revealed to correct not to substitute the previous inspired Books.

On Topic

I watched the video, and I find his view very interesting, except that I have a few problems...
If Moses did prepare the staff himself with magic, why was he scared when he threw it the first time?
Why does Allah ask Moses to use the staff when crossing the sea? Can mercury produce such a thing?
How did the golden calf use to emit sounds/cries? The Sumerian tells Aaron and Moses that "he noticed something that the others did not", so he grab soil from where Moses walked, and cast it into the calf. Most likeley, he saw the staff of Moses producing some kind of special effect.

huruf

Misr is a common name, which like for instance in London with the name The City, may be made into a proper name for those who know it so, but basically it is not the name of a place but the common name for peopled places. Egypt was not called Misr in ancient Egyptian nor in older Arabic. Cairo, today is called Masr, as it would be called the City, because it was very populated, the same as when people living around a town, calle such a town, merely town.

Fir3awn is a proper name, not a title. The kings of Egypt were kings, not pharaoh or anything like that, that was borrowed from the Bible which took a proper name, Firwawn, and made a title out of it for its particular purposes.

As to the Qur'an,
Did Egypt have several gates to enter itas the sons of Ya3ub are told to enter thorugh different gates?

Has God levelled the pyramids or the sphinx or the ancient Egptian temples as it is said that He would have done in 7.138 if in fact He is referring to Egypt? Did the King of Egypt have to recruit people from hamlets in order to go after Musa's people as it is depicted int he Qur'an Fir3awn did? The things that re adscribed to a misr in the Qur'an cannot apply to Egypt, to Ancient Egypt. It does nto match, not at all.

m-S-r is an Arabic root which means
found, settle, civilise, colonize; to become a propulated, civilised area, become a city, a metropolis,

misr city, metropolis, capital,

Salaam

wildguest1956

For another approach, you may wish to have a look at this post
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12328.msg96637#msg96637

Peace

The_Sardar

For another approach, you may wish to have a look at this post
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12328.msg96637#msg96637

Peace

Salam/Peace JM, what are your thoughts on the video and this