Does rendering of 17:1 by Wakas make any sense?
-
peace,
huruf, I mean a vision that informs of a future event. I provided examples from Quran for people to check.
No brother,
A dream can contain an information about future happening - event through symbols and concepts. It does not have time reference.
You contradict yourself. On the one hand you say "no" but then you immediately say it can. The time reference is the future............ like all visions in Quran.
1760 ... And We did not make the vision (al ru'ya) that We showed thee...
As for the rest of your comments I'm not sure what you're referring to. I already discussed with bro Ayman about "the farthest time of SJD" which refers to the furthest event/period of the inviolable months wherein the messenger was alive. Interestingly, not only does Quran imply when this takes place God's plan will be fulfilled, traditional Islamic history has it he died shortly after this.
I am looking for a problem in my view such as it contradicts Quran, is impossible according to logic/practicality, impossible according to the grammar, no corresponding example in Quran. These are decent objections. If you have any of these objections then please bring forth clear evidence to back them up, not personal opinions.
-
peace,
huruf, I mean a vision that informs of a future event. I provided examples from Quran for people to check.
You contradict yourself. On the one hand you say "no" but then you immediately say it can. The time reference is the future............ like all visions in Quran.
1760 ... And We did not make the vision (al ru'ya) that We showed thee...
As for the rest of your comments I'm not sure what you're referring to. I already discussed with bro Ayman about "the farthest time of SJD" which refers to the furthest event/period of the inviolable months wherein the messenger was alive. Interestingly, not only does Quran imply when this takes place God's plan will be fulfilled, traditional Islamic history has it he died shortly after this.
I am looking for a problem in my view such as it contradicts Quran, is impossible according to logic/practicality, impossible according to the grammar, no corresponding example in Quran. These are decent objections. If you have any of these objections then please bring forth clear evidence to back them up, not personal opinions.
Salam,
No was to your conclusion. And reason was given in Reply 3 and 4. Pl come forward any argument to rebut it.
Why you allege "personal opinions"? I do not give opinions. I give solid facts and universally accepted academic principles. Please point out when I give opinions.
Would you like to agree or disagree on the general principle mentioned in Post 5, so that I proceed to convince you that "took with/by His servant (at) night from the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is erroneous rather it is not even remotely related to original text.
. -
Meanwhile we study the key words in the sentence
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.1PPP.gif
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/09.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20011/13.%20FaAsre%20Seen%20Ra%20Ya/2.gif This is Linkage Clause for the preceding Relative Pronoun.
It is a Verbal sentence; with Verb Perfect; Third Person; Singular; Masculine; - Verbal noun; Subject pronoun hidden referring back to Relative Pronoun-Allah the Exalted. It is from Root " " which signifies travelling, journeying in the night, in general sense.Brother Wakas!
Would you still insist that this verbal sentence means "He took"?
-
Brother Mazhar here is the translation of 171 from your web site.
From within Al Masjid al Haram?the Sacred Mosque, around Ka'aba in Mecca ?
Towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque ?Just curious to know how does means Extreme Distant Altitude ? where does the concept of altitude came in this word?
-
Brother Mazhar here is the translation of 171 from your web site.
From within Al Masjid al Haram?the Sacred Mosque, around Ka'aba in Mecca ?
Towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque ?Just curious to know how does means Extreme Distant Altitude ? where does the concept of altitude came in this word?
Salam brother,
Good and relevant question.
Post 5 The text is Expository structure. In this structure it is not assumed that the reader possesses the prior knowledge of the subject matter. Answer to any question that reader might have about the topic it is answered.We will discuss it little later after getting into the main sentence. Pl comment on what is so far stated.
-
Meanwhile we study the key words in the sentence
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.1PPP.gif
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/09.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20011/13.%20FaAsre%20Seen%20Ra%20Ya/2.gif This is Linkage Clause for the preceding Relative Pronoun.
It is a Verbal sentence; with Verb Perfect; Third Person; Singular; Masculine; - Verbal noun; Subject pronoun hidden referring back to Relative Pronoun-Allah the Exalted. It is from Root " " which signifies travelling, journeying in the night, in general sense.Brother Wakas!
Would you still insist that this verbal sentence means "He took"?
Brother Wakas!
My purpose is not imposing my studied conclusions. It is an academic exercise.
The Root of verb is " " http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(665).htm
Semantic domain Travel by Night
Core elements are
the Traveler he goes on a journey during the night; it is an activity in which the Traveler moves from a Source location in the direction to a Goal location along a Path. This semantic frame emphasize the whole process of getting from one place to another, rather than profiling merely the beginning or the end of the journey.
The Mode of transportation expresses how the motion of the Traveler is effected, by their body or by a vehicle which holds and conveys the Traveler.
I had highlighted that Verb is Form-IV. This stem is formed by prefixing (a-) and dropping the vowel of the first radical. In the imperfect, the disappears and the regular imperfect prefix takes the vowel u, and the characteristic is i , yukt?bu. The meaning this form imparts is causative.
Causative - Causing someone to perform the action of Measure I which is undertaking a journey in this verb.
The perfect verb literally means that the subject of the verb caused the undertaking of a journey by someone.
-
-
I appreciate that.
We have already discussed this aspect on my article thread for al masjid al haram
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467
This is detailed analysis. I hope you critically evaluate it and give your input, agreeable or disagreeable.
Do you agree with the semantics of http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/09.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20011/13.%20FaAsre%20Seen%20Ra%20Ya/2.gif discussed in my previous post? And that it cannot mean "He took".
-
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00011.%20Bandgi%20Ain%20Ba%20Dal/42.gif Prepositional Phrase + Possessive Phrase Inseparable preposition + Noun Definite; masculine; singular; genitive referring Muhammad (Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam) + Suffixed Pronoun Third person; masculine; singular; in genitive state referring Allah the Exalted. The Preposition is for making the verb. These phrases signifies the person for whom the travel was arranged to embark upon journey.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.051/206.%20Lyaltan%20Laam%20Ya%20Laam/7.gif Time Adverb Use of this adverb is quite meaningful since the Verb itself denotes traveling by night. It signifies that the journey undertaken was initiated during night but its span of time was short with relation to night; and it emphasizes the departure at night,
The Root of verb has Semantic domain Travel by Night
Core elements are
the Traveler he goes on a journey during the night; it is an activity in which the Traveler moves from a Source location in the direction to a Goal location along a Path - the route along which the travel takes place. This semantic frame emphasize the whole process of getting from one place to another, rather than profiling merely the beginning or the end of the journey.
What was the Source location and direction of journey?
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.1PPQ.gif It is a Prepositional Phrase + Adjectival Phrase relating to preceding Verb. This Preposition denotes a beginning point related to place. Hence it is connected with verbs which convey idea of separation and departure etc. as is the case here by verb
Thus it is evident that denotes a location - place.
Direction is also core element of Journey, it is mentioned
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.1PPR.gif
It is a Prepositional Phrase + Adjectival Phrase relating to the preceding Verb. Separable preposition. Its general meaning is directional towards an object. It does not mean or necessarily include entering into a location. It only denotes to reach the point where the boundary of another location begins. This shows the Path of journey.
It means towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque
-
I still did not get where this altitude comes from?
Secondly there was no mosque around Kaaba at that time. Mecca was not under muslim control yet.
Pl study the Root and about superlative noun. Also please skim Ayahs about Masjid t find its presence.
Or please wait, I will explain it later.
-
Re "took".
I have little issue if its taken to mean "travel by night". I don't see how it affect my view.
However I do consider the parts in bold below baseless claims until proven otherwise
It is a Prepositional Phrase + Adjectival Phrase relating to preceding Verb. This Preposition denotes a beginning point related to place. Hence it is connected with verbs which convey idea of separation and departure etc. as is the case here by verb
Thus it is evident that denotes a location - place.
Please cite the Arabic grammar book/reference, with page number which states something similar to "when a prepositional phrase (e.g. min) precedes adjectival phrase it ALWAYS means the adjectival phrase is a location/place".
-
Re "took".
I have little issue if its taken to mean "travel by night". I don't see how it affect my view.
However I do consider the parts in bold below baseless claims until proven otherwise
Please cite the Arabic grammar book/reference, with page number which states something similar to "when a prepositional phrase (e.g. min) precedes adjectival phrase it ALWAYS means the adjectival phrase is a location/place".
Pl read in context. Journey has the Source location and the location is mentioned by Preposition Min.
The simple prepositions are divisible into three clauses, indicating respectively, motion proceeding from or away from a place; motion to or towards it; and rest in it. The prepositions which indicate motion proceeding from or away from a place are Min and "an".
This can be verified from any grammar book in topic Prepositions.
-
Salam!
Maybe this could be of interest.
http//sunnah.org/wp/2016/02/14/graves-of-allahs-prophets-in-masjid-al-haram/Now I know why Hajj/Pilgrimage of al-Masjid al-haram is necessary once in a lifetime and why Salat and sacrifices are to be performed on graves of prophets. And why should you not perform Salat on graves of Kuffar.
Also,
https//muslimmatters.org/2014/02/14/8-things-didnt-know-masjid-al-aqsa/
https//www.islamiclandmarks.com/palestine-other/masjid-e-khalil-hebronNow I know why people built a mosque over the graves of Ashab-e-Kahf. Now I know what a Masjid is and what Salat is. Now I know why people make pilgrimages to the shrines and temples and why they are sacred.
Maybe you'd also come to know. So stop discussing and start your Salat (2, 3, 5 or more times a day) from today. Do not clap and whistle at the graves. Do bows and prostrations while weeping/crying and pray for the righteous souls. -X
May Allah guide and bless all the truth seekers!
Peace! -
The part in red bold tells us everything
Pl read in context. Journey has the Source location and the location is mentioned by Preposition Min.
What you perhaps mean to say is when we read the context of 171 it suggests the starting point of journey was a place and I agree that is what a superficial reading indicates. We already discussed this at the start of my thread why this poses problems.
The simple prepositions are divisible into three clauses, indicating respectively, motion proceeding from or away from a place; motion to or towards it; and rest in it. The prepositions which indicate motion proceeding from or away from a place are Min and "an".
This can be verified from any grammar book in topic Prepositions.
'
Anyone who studies any Arabic grammar book/site knows why you never provided what I asked for. You dress up your view (i.e. it is evident use of "min" here denotes a place) and pretend it is a fact with no other possibility. Don't confuse your one interpretation as being the only possible interpretation. Learn the difference.
e.g.
http//revivearabic.blogspot.com/2016/09/arabic-particles-arabic-preposition-min.html -
The part in red bold tells us everything
What you perhaps mean to say is when we read the context of 171 it suggests the starting point of journey was a place and I agree that is what a superficial reading indicates. We already discussed this at the start of my thread why this poses problems.
'Anyone who studies any Arabic grammar book/site knows why you never provided what I asked for. You dress up your view (i.e. it is evident use of "min" here denotes a place) and pretend it is a fact with no other possibility. Don't confuse your one interpretation as being the only possible interpretation. Learn the difference.
e.g.
http//revivearabic.blogspot.com/2016/09/arabic-particles-arabic-preposition-min.htmlIf one concentrates and tries to know what is a "Journey" he can realize what it means
Core elements are
the Traveler he goes on a journey during the night; it is an activity in which the Traveler moves from a Source location in the direction to a Goal location along a Path - the route along which the travel takes place. This semantic frame emphasize the whole process of getting from one place to another, rather than profiling merely the beginning or the end of the journey.
The Mode of transportation expresses how the motion of the Traveler is effected, by their body or by a vehicle which holds and conveys the Traveler.
Non core entity is the Explanation for which the travel is undertaken; Time when the traveling occurs; and depiction of the state of the Traveler during the journey.
If the basic semantics of a word accepted all over the world in all the langues is called superficial, how one can make things enter into someone's brain.
Has anything different mentioned in the Link given by you about Min what I had stated?
-
Does it make any sense?
Yes, indeed, it makes no sense. It seems that he has a real problem with understanding the word "masjid" in the Qur'an. However, one good point for him in your exchanges, he tries to connect the first verse to passages from the same surah.
On the other hand, concerning you, i think that referring to Surah 53 for understanding verse 1 is too hasty, before having identified the structure and textual composition of this surah.
This detailed study has never been carried out to my knowledge, using the rigorous tools of rhetorical analysis. God willing, I will tackle this during this lunar month of fasting and intense meditation on the Qur'an, and share with the community of this forum the fruit of my efforts. -
peace,
Mazhar,
Has anything different mentioned in the Link given by you about Min what I had stated?
The Arabic preposition min مِنْ is used to indicate
the beginning of extent or commencement of the limit in space or time or simply the commencement of the limit.Iyyaka,
From an earlier post
I am looking for a problem in my view such as it contradicts Quran, is impossible according to logic/practicality, impossible according to the grammar, no corresponding example in Quran. These are decent objections. If you have any of these objections then please bring forth clear evidence to back them up, not personal opinions.Re understanding "masjid"
If my understanding is so problematic why is there minimal issues found?
Plus I couldn't have made it easier if you or anyone disagrees. In my article I explicitly point out what verses cause issues for each understanding. You and Mazhar dont bother addressing them then continue on your merry way, simple.
