Who is Isra'iil إِسْرَائِيلَ

[good_logic]

Peace noshirk.
Nice to see you active here. Welcome back.

The following is telling a story about "Beni Israeel". Some group living with Moses at his time?
Starting here-240
and ending here-2123
True events that took place with a tribe under the leadership of Moses!

I do not see the whole story as allegorical although it has many lessons to be learned.
This tribe is a community at that time that lived in Misr and went through the adventure of rescue with Moses.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[huruf]

Thank you, noshirk, for the long explanation. It is some work you have done to put all of that together and write it in a message. I appreciate it. I will give time to considering it, since there are things which may be orthwhile considering.

As it is now, my idea is that given that israa is a common name and that the concept exists in all spiritual paths, I cannot take it as something that pertains to a tribe in particular but that rather it refers to any tribe, any collective, any group, that comes from a tradition where the concept of israa exists.

I have received from friend confirmation that iil is an old Arabic name of God and also that it might be a contraction of ilayhi, to him, so that the compound word israaiil would mean the travel from the night to Him, which makes a lot of sense, and that is the whole meaning of al israa, the israa of the Prophet being merely a more detailed description of the spiritual journey of any person who undertakes it, from one end to the other, from the most humble postration, done by all creatures, by all things that exist , to the deepest postration of the heart of the lover of God.

We all have beatiful traditions, spiritual traditions which help to brings us closer to God, but like everything that is taken for granted we may fail to value our tradition and we forget and get distracted from deeper things by the ephimerous. Therefore we are sent the mother of awakening, Maryam, and her son, to raise us from our spiritual death, to turn the mud which is the raw material we are made of into birds that want to fly, free, far.

Salaam

[huruf]

More

The very first mention of isra'iil, and it already appears as bani 'isra?'iil and God addresses them. No mention of anybody called 'isra?'iil has been made at all, and the all the previous mentions of anybody are of adam and there is also spoken of a pact ith God, but it is a act of all humanity, that is tht etalk up to aya 2.40, and there in 2.40 God addresses banu 'israa'iil. Up to that moment there has been no mention of Ibrahim no mention of Musa, no mention of Nuh. Adam, that is it, but there is already a pact and we have the address to bani 'isra'il and God calls them to fulfill their part of the Pact.

To me it seems clear, banu 'isra'iil are those who have inherited spiritually, I mean, not necessarily through blood lines, a pact ith God and may be neglecting it.

And it is in that sense that '3isaa Ibnu Maryam is sent to bani 'isra'iil, to those who had the act and no are spiritually dead, and '3isaa ibnu maryam, blows into them with God's permission and gives them new life.

We will all live through the ruh blown into Maryam and into Maryam farch that '3sa blown into those who ant a new life.

It all makes a lot of sense.

Salaam

[The_Sardar]

Huruf your text is missing for me. And i think i know why. It's because of this diamond shaped question marks

https//i.imgur.com/O4kONmA.jpg

[huruf]

?Diamonds? ?Diamonds! ?Where, where? ?I want some diamonds! tempt tempt

Seriously now I put those accents to simulate the arabic letters, I suppose I do not have to be so accurate.

I'll give up all my diomonds for your sake, Sardar, but you ill have to guess the arabic letters.

Salaam

[The_Sardar]

You just confirmed my suspicion sister Huruf. That diamond shape with question mark does cause the text go missing.

[noshirk]

Salaam

Really guys, you are under estimating the importance of Israel
Banu Israel can be good guys, astrayed. But Israel not.

Please consider the actual importance in nowadays world of Israel.
No leader in occident can be elected withoud doing allegeance to Israel.

Please consider also that there is no country named Moisland, no religion named Moisism en no people named Moisians.
Please consider that there is no other banu something in Quran than banu israel and banu adam (humanity). Not even banu Abraham.

Now, there is perhaps another verse where ouy guy is named by surname

930 The Yahood said ?Uzair the son of God,? and the Nassara said ?The Messiah is the son of God.? Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!

Uzair looks like a surname. No existence of a guy named Uzair in "Jew" religion.
Uzair is pejorartive form that means something like the little supporter. Root 3azara is used elsewhere in quran.

this verse is a clear hyperlink from Quran to what "Jews" says. Lets follows the hyperlink of Allah and see who is our guy

Exodus 422 King James Version (KJV)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn

Funny. Isn't it ?
Our guy compete for the title of first son of God with the messiah. it is a kind of anti messiah and probably the thelogical figure who inspired the the mythical anti christ and Massih dajjal figures.

do you understand now why Israel name is so high nowadays ?
Why this name is so fascinating ?
Why so many people thinks he was a true prophet ?

There were many great Battles between Israel and Issa. I will evoke 3.
1- in the womb of their biblical mother between Esau and Jacob/Israel. The battle continued betwed Israel and Edomites.This is Israel version in the mixed Torah.
2- The battle betwwen Issa son of the nun (Yeshua Bin Nun , hero of the 6th book of old Testament. This is the true Messiab, son of May, sister of haroun and daughter of Imran. this Issa was anoited by Moses himself. He was the guy who installed "banu israel" in "the promise land". But Israel erased his prophethood and still waiting for a guy who will do again the job.
3-the fake Messiah called Jesus. The shobbiha lahom guy. A guy whose injeels (plural) were written after his death.. A pure litterary person who never existed. An invention of Evangelists who were true believers. It was the greatest plot in history. God of "Yahood" is a racist god who care only about "sons of Israel", asking his "sons" to make henocides , crimes and to stole land of others. The God of Israel had many laws (more 600) and much of them about food as 3-93 says. The God of Gospel is an opposite version. An universal care who care about spirituality and care about himans. A god who abolished the 600 stupid laws.

Really. With Quran only. No ways to understand who is Israel.
Quran give the keys. We have to follow the hyperlinks

Peace

[good_logic]

Peace noshirk.
I believe sister huruf does not want mixing or relating stories from the bible.

As for "Uzair ibnu Allah" in your last post, some bring as evidence that the Jews(During the time of Daniel, When Daniel and his companions were thrown into the fire, One of the companions was called Uzerius&quot have said this

Daniel 325 King James Version (KJV)
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

But of course these all sayings to be checked.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[huruf]

Right, I do not want anything from the bible when dealing with the Qur'an.

Bible is hadith, it is as plain as that. The bible says good things? Sure. There are also very good, beautiful, inspired hadith. Many of the hadith, not necessarily the good ones, come from the bible or derive from it.

The bible, except when dealing excusively with high spiritual things, is an ethnic narrative, from the point of view of an ethnic identity.

What does one care that God chooses a chosen people for the heck of it? what do I care whether this or that person had this or that children, unless those children are going to be used by God to teach us.

I read the bible as a child and at times some passages of the old Testament were directly nauseating depicting women as bitches, worse than rags.

Notwhithstanding, as I said, that there are good parts in it. When historical things are borrowed from the Bible, as if they were absolute truths, the result is dismal.

The Qur'an has been thoroughly colonised by the Bible. For the Qur'an the Bible is the kiss of death. If we are going to read the Qur'an while holding the bible as help, better throw it away, we are trying to get water closing the tap.

The bible is hadith, and those believers that have it as an inspired book know that and deal with it accordingly, and know how to make out the inspired from the ethnic and other trash in it. Just as there are good people who uphold the hadith but nevertheless know what to take seriously and what to discard.

Of course the imperials use the bible to destroy peoples self-esteem and for imperial purposes, but if it were not the bible or if it is not the bible it is something else. Nothing is without use to the sahayateen.

The more I look at the Qur'an by itself, the more wonderful it appears to me. Of course, nothing in this world can be looked at by itself, since we are int he world and our mind is set by what we have absorbed and perceived and how we integrate it into our whole. In that whole neither the bible, nor the hadith should be held at a par or even closer to the Qur?n than anything else.

Wisdom is wisdom, whether we find it in the popular provebs or sayings or int he voice of unknown people, or in the hadith or in the bible hadith or in the many transmissions of the many spiritual traditions of the world. Inspiration and holyness is not the exclusive of an ethnic club of the past. It is the inheritance of the human kind and nothing by its origin is of a better class than other things. We are rich and biblehadithists would have us miserly praying for crumbs of ethnic miracles.

Noshirk,

'israa' is the travel from night into light, that is the meaning of the word itself, no need to resort to extrenuous research to get that, 'israa'iil are those who undertook the journey from darkness into light and bani 'israa'il are those who inherited that spirit of going from darness into light and many times forget it it or betray it. So in fact all humanity are bani of those who undertook in loneliness and quest the journey from darkness into light.

As to the ethnic part. Modern abomination Israel shitty state is just a contortion plotted by the imperials to destroy the middle east and poison humanity's mind with historical-religious mumbo-jumbo of the lowest intellectual order. Jews in this scheme are used as priviledged trash in the upholding and extending of the imperials. Many of them are aware and act accordingly, but most people jews or anything else, are in the mediocrity and merely follow what they can with the least effort or to their best advantage. That is the way it has always been more or less. That is for each our own travel from darkness into light.

Sound people should not fall into the trap of ehtnicities by simply turning their omelet upside down.

Every person can escape ethnicity-religion or pseudo-religion and believe in the One God and consider their human fellows as such fellows in the journey and reflect godliness in their behaviour.

Each day I become more and more convinced of the necessity of the Qur'an for most people, but the Qur'an purified of any and all unwarranted accretions as if it were the off-shoot of one original more important tradition. All tradition that matters is in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not indebeted to anything else. It is the digest God made for our ease in understanding existence and our meaning in it.

No, I will not take into consideration any bible stuff to understand the Qur'an, anymore than i will take into consideration anything else, or rather less since in fact right now the problem is to rid the Qur'an of all the impurities brought into it by the heavy, overhelming, mostly unconscious, superimposition, of the bible on the Qur'an.

Salaam

[noshirk]

Dear Huruf (and good logic)

I 50% agree that bible is hadith. However unlike Hadith, Quran refers many times to torah and what "Yahhod" says

2776 This Qur?an tells to the BANU Israel most of that which they are in dispute over.

I think that for a so huge and enormous theological figure as Israel, we miss many things if we don't consider the genesis of this personage in bible.

the 100% Quran only approach is insufficient for me. Quran give keys to understand Torah and correct it.

Let me give example.
Quran says that Meriam is daughter of Imran, ans sister of Harun.
Many biblist says that this is a confusion between mother of Jesus and the biblical prophetess Meriam sister of Moses.
But for me, with 100% quran only approach, without bible, i can't know that Moses had a sister called Meriem and that his father'name is Imran.
I cannot know also that his successor is called also Yeshua, that is the hebraic name of Jesus.

Another example.
260 And Moses was seeking water for his people, so We said ?Strike the stone with your staff.? Thus twelve springs exploded out of it; each people then knew from where to drink. ?Eat and drink from the provisions of God, and do not roam the earth as corrupters.?

if you don't know what bible says, you miss something.
"yahood" said that Moses was punished by god because god said to him to shout on the stone but he "strike the stone with his staff". The punishment of Moses was that he was not allowed to enter "the promised land". Ypu miss this if you are Quran only and will understand that the "Strike the stone with your staff" has no particular importance.
There is others examples that illustrate the verse
3369 O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honorable before God.

for example, Bible said that Moses ordered a fraticide with 3000 deaths in the calf's episode. Quran says that never happened

How can you understand all this with Quran only approach ?
33-69 warn us not to do what Israel did with Moses. But the "muslim Israel" did more with Muhammad. It is the Muslim Israel" who wrote Hadiths.

As i said before, islam is the only deen for Allah and all prophets were muslim.
We have to consider all as history of Islam enlighted by Quran who "corrects errors".

i totally disagree with comprehension that Israel is travel from night to light. It is the opposite. Travel from light to night.
3-93 is clear that Israel make "fatwas" and invent prohibitions without order from God.
Israel is priesthood. Priesthood is false prophethood. Prieshood is lies. Priesthood is indoctrination and rubbish. And the victims are Banu Israel themselves, that is people who nourish their spirit with this rubbish.

For each messenger of God, there is an "israel/priesthood" who follow him to pervert the messenger's message.
That is the meaning of the quranic expression "who traveled with noah on the arch".
Israel follow each Messenger. Israel always claims to an intermediate between God and his followers.
Israel is the spiritual son of chaytan sended to pervert deen.
Allah is using Israel to distinguish who follow him from who follow tradition and hersays.
Imams are Israel. Who follow them are banu Israel.

however i think that word isra is related with this root
(&#1614 . . . . . .
that is to hide something. Acting in secret, in the darkness.

we can relate this with the calf episode.
2085 Allah said ?We have tested your people after you left, and the Samiri misguided them.?

2095 He said ?So what do you have to say O Samiri ??
2096 He said ?I noticed what they did not notice, so I took a handful from traces of Messenger, and I cast it in. This is what my soul inspired me to do.?

samiri is from root smr related to

(&#1614 . " " . . . .

that is people siiting in the night waiting for the good moment to misguid people.
(Note Israel version in bible says that it was Aaron who made the calf)

The samiri followed Moses when he escaped Firaoun. He was between the travelers on "the arch" of Moses.
1083 But none believed in Moses from his people except some from their descendants, because of their fear from Pharaoh and his commanders that he would persecute them. Pharaoh was high in the land, and he was of the tyrants.

2652 And We inspired Moses ?Take away My servants, for you will be followed.?
2653 So Pharaoh sent gatherers to the cities.
2654 ?These are but a small band.?

and samiri was between them

Peace

[noshirk]

Salaam

Want to add something related to Israel

Sometimes we are referring to bible without knowing that we are referring to bible because it is included in "our bios", that is the lowest level our mind architecture. It is something we learned from childhood and we never thought it can be wrong.

Example. Daoud and Soleiman are known as Greatests kings of Israel.
But there is absolutely no links in Quran between daoud, soleiman and Israel or even Yahood or even torah. or even any known prophets.

it is not strange ?

in my quran studies, the most difficult thing i faced is to remove such kind of beliefs even when i thought i was a quran only believer. It is really hard to remove priesthood teachings from mind even if we want.

Peace

[huruf]

Right. That is what I meant when I said "unconscious".

Recently I realised that the greatest acheivement attributed to Salomon, the Temple, is nowhere in the Qur'an. That Sulayman is there allright and as an exceptional achiever and knowledgeable in sciences and things that I do not think I understand yet, or I ill never understand, but that no temple whatsoever is mentionned, not even a little brick. Surprising, right? Nowhere a temple of Sulayman. Why. Again are we in front of two different people, Sulayman and Solomon, or have we been fed a fantastic temple the same as we, from other sides, have been fed a magic carpet that flies? Of course we do not believe in those carpets, but the Temple of Solomon?

That is another reason why I have taken to reproduce all names such as appear in the Qur'an in Arabic and, as I have been able to ascertain, were reproduced in the Spanish muslim usage of earlier centuries, including proper names of persons. It si so that it is well understood that I do not atribute to thos names anything that the Qur'an does not. never mind whether other people identify them ith somebody else or not. Particularly, Maryam is Maryam, 3isa is 3isa, Yahia, Yahia...

Yes, I think that we do need a purification of the Qur'an in order to preserve it from the assumptions made in our heads as to what it says, let alone what it means. Just what it says and particularly what it does not say would be a great achievement.

I guess many muslims if they found a Qur'an without much of the bible lore they have been used to fit it with may reject the Qur'an. Too bad -for them. As the saying goes, popular wisdom "cuanto menos bulto, m?s claridad", the less bulk the more clarity.

Salaam.

[noshirk]

Recently I realised that the greatest acheivement attributed to Salomon, the Temple, is nowhere in the Qur'an. That Sulayman is there allright and as an exceptional achiever and knowledgeable in sciences and things that I do not think I understand yet, or I ill never understand, but that no temple whatsoever is mentionned, not even a little brick.

Some bricks
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLTtnVVVIMA

Israel is a big liar. He loves rewrite history.

Brother Pazuzu was right.
History of Yahood was in Yemen. it was from there were nabuchodonnor (bakhta nasr) exiled them to Babylon. And it was Cyrus the Great who liberated them and allowed to them to go to Palestine for the first time. Actual torah was written after. The oldest text is in greek and written in egypt after Alexander.
Seems that rabbis of Israel brought some changes and that Daoud and Suleiman have benefited of a posthumous conversion to judaism >.

Peace

[Anoushirvan]

Salam,

let's deep dive in the 7th century in Arabia, before Arabic grammarians existed end of 8th century, before they could invent triliteral roots, before Arabic grammar could be codified.

Then, how would the Arab audience of the Messenger hear the word "Isra'il" in Arabic ?
They would hear it as the Hebrew counterpart, of course.
And they would also hear it as an assonance composed of two words "isra" and "aal".
"Isra" means doing a travel in darkness, like in verse 171.
Aal means family, like in aal-Imran, aal-Ibrahim. It is probably a derivative of Ahl, people.

So they would hear by Israel the family of those who travel in darkness.

In verse 393 we read that every food was allowed to the Bani Israel, except that Israel forbade itself.
If we except God, which entity usually arrogates itself the right to rule in God's name that something is allowed and something else is not allowed ?

Priesthood of course !

So Israel in Qur'an is a nickname for priesthood, the kind of which arrogates itself the right to rule in the name of God.

Next, what means "Bani Israel" ?
Bin in Arabic means son in the sense of being nourished by the father, Ab. This nourishment can be physical or spiritual.
Another word, walad, means the son in the biological sense.

Therefore the "Bani Israel" are those that are spiritually nourished by priesthood that leads them astray in darkness.

[huruf]

I doubt of the ability of anyone to plunge into 7th century Arabia or into 15th century china or Alaska. We may imagine whatever we like, but we do not plunge at all. Just figure something according to our imagination and readings or films of any kind or quality that we may have come accros.

Better keep as much as possible to the written word and honest intellect, and proceed only as we can foundedly proceed on that ground which is certain and at hand. Finally we are not pronnoucing ourselves ont he values or lack of them of any place or people on such and such a time, but on the value of a book that we do have as is, now, in our hands.

Salaam

[good_logic]

Peace All.
So who are these Beni-Israeel?
1- 240
GOD made a covenant with them.
2-
Chosen people?
3-
They are Moses Quawm-People"
4 -
Here in the above verse GOD took the covenant with them.
5-
GOD is still addressing Beni Israeel here sending Moses and Jesus to them.
6-These must have been the people living with Moses and Aaron in Misr?
GOD bless.
Peace.

[huruf]

Peace All.
So who are these Beni-Israeel?
1- 240
GOD made a covenant with them.
2-
Chosen people?
3-
They are Moses Quawm-People"
4 -
Here in the above verse GOD took the covenant with them.
5-
GOD is still addressing Beni Israeel here sending Moses and Jesus to them.
6-These must have been the people living with Moses and Aaron in Misr?
GOD bless.
Peace.

O notice that it says Musa's people, but it does not say that those are bani israiil.

On the other hand, that somebody ar bani israiil, that is inheritors of the those ho travelled by night does not mean that there are ony one bani israaiil, that is open, same as i ahle al kitaab who is not ahlu ul kitaab?

There ar emany peoole favored 3ala el 3alamin, everyone, in fact, in some aspect every people is favoured 3ala al alamin. But God blames those bani insraail that have forgotten God's ffavour on the and are ungrateful, that is what is telling them. Other people may be have not forgotten, that they have bben favoured 3ala eal 3alamin. Every people is a chosen people that is why they are a people. to understand chosen or favoured as being superior or over others is to take God as a servant for their vanities. I know, as a people that I am favoured, i knwo that and I appreciate that. It would be sheer folly on my part to think that other people are not chosen and favoured with something else, something different from mine, but something that is their gift. That is why everybody enjoys travelling and meeting people from different places and knowing from far away lands and all that.

The point is that in order to know who are israail, it is as simple as saying who are the early risers. That you have in mind certain early risers, is not forbidding that early rises are evidently all those hwo rise early any time anywhere. The name says it all, we do not need to study 10.000 years of human history to find out who were or are the ealy risers. Some of them may have encountered more difficult to rise early in winter in northern siberia or whatever, but that doe snot change te meaning of early risers.

Lut's people are israaiil, they left in the night before sunrise and went away from their town. Any descendant of Lut's people, in a physical way would be bani israiil , and spiritually all peoples in the world are bani israiil.

And in fact 3isa ibnu Maryam came to revive all bani israiil anywhere, where his message could be understood. That is their second opportunity. Those who have failed in getting it right the first time they receive the message, have another opportunity following 3isa ibnu Maryam. The can revive again speiritually, cure their blindness and their impurity, through the ruh that was breathed into Maryam and that 3isa blows into the birds he shapes with God's permission.

Salaam

[Anoushirvan]

I doubt of the ability of anyone to plunge into 7th century Arabia or into 15th century china or Alaska. We may imagine whatever we like, but we do not plunge at all. Just figure something according to our imagination and readings or films of any kind or quality that we may have come accros.

We do this when we do history, and history is a science, not imagination.

Better keep as much as possible to the written word and honest intellect, and proceed only as we can foundedly proceed on that ground which is certain and at hand. Finally we are not pronnoucing ourselves ont he values or lack of them of any place or people on such and such a time, but on the value of a book that we do have as is, now, in our hands.

Salaam

I disagree here. The text we call Qur'an was primarily addressed to a specific audience in the 7th CE in their tongue and their social and cultural background (cf. verse 144), for a specific purpose.

It is not targeted at us, at first hand, at least not at me. Otherwise it would have been revealed in French (or in English) and using cultural references that are accessible to me, living in 21st CE.
It doesn't prevent us, living in 21st CE, to extract some wisdom from it, of course. But we must first understand what it meant in the 7st CE Arabia, then by delta from this epoch and place, we can understand which wisdom we can extract for us.

Otherwise we are hitting misinterpretation, and misinterpretation leads to spread corruption on earth in the end.

[huruf]

The Qur'an it says itself many times is addressed to a people who ponder, o reflect, who think, who use their minds, able to understand.

If that is nto you it is your business, but obviously you cannot ptetend that other people do not understand that it is addressed to anybody who considers that it is for them.

Addressing the french? In what is different people from people. Human kind changes but not so much and not in the essential. And obviously anything that speaks about daily life and common events has to be set in something , so keep it simple. you have to choose one unless you want an enciclopedia of millions of volumes. These things are obvious. The Qur'an is not concenred whether you use forks or you don't but on behaviour and behaviour,a s said is not different, in fact we do understand too well what the Qur'an is talking about.

Salaam

[good_logic]

Peace huruf.

I am only going by the subject of 240 onwards. It addresses Beni Israeel. They were Moses people at that time.
Otherwise who are these people of Moses that crossed the sea and dealt with Moses as their leader throughout the verses?

If you say "O notice that it says Musa's people, but it does not say that those are bani israiil."
To me the verses after it is calling them Moses people it addresses them again as "Ya Beni Israeel".
GOD bless you.
Peace.