Pork is HALAL

good_logic

Peace Mahdi.
What was forbidden for the Jews can you list them for us please ?
Please list all items with evidence.
Thanks.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

The issue IS NOT what is forbidden for the Jews. (#strawman #redherring)

The issue what IS NOT FORBIDDEN for the Jews.

Because what IS NOT FORBIDDEN for the Jews is halal for muslim.

The FOOD (pork) OF THOSE GIVEN THE BOOK is also halal for you ... anyone who rejects iman (in pork as halal), his actions will COME TO NOTHING and in the Next World he will be among the LOSERS. (55)

Understand the issue?

Allah mention nothing about pork was made haram for the Jews

WE MADE HARAM FOR THE JEWS every animal with an undivided hoof, and in respect of cattle and sheep, We made their fat haram for them, except what is attached to their backs or guts or mixed up with bone. That is how We repaid them for their insolence. And WE CERTAINLY SPEAK THE TRUTH (not the Torah/Bible). (6146)

jkhan

So Lexicon and all those interpreters are wrong when they define it as the "FLESH" ? No reason? No evidence? No Logic? NOT EVEN the corroborative evidence etc from the Quran? It is "MEAT ALONE". PERIOD! yes

is that you really Mr. Mahdi asking from me........ Go back to your Allah = Energy thread.... do so called dictionaries claim so that Allah = Energy.... i didn't refer those dictionaries but still curious to know are they wrong by claiming Allah is God...

Mahdi_Ibrahim

Yes? No?

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610488.msg421592#msg421592

good_logic

Peace Mahdi.
If you do not list the items that are forbidden for the Jews with evidence you cannot say what is halal for sure.
That remains your own assumption then and your argument is nullified.
It is relevant here since you are claiming an item halal for the jews.
It is also right that we check tall the items.
Failing to do so, it remains your assumption.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Look brother? I am not coming after your every post? but I am against what is not right ?. So if I am in a position to counter argue I will in sha allah do it.. look dude..
6146 God prohibited certain foods for Jews as a result of their INSOLENCE not coz that food has to be prohibited for human consumption?. So we can imagine what actually would have basically prohibited for Jews before this restriction applied coz of insolence?.Key here is insolence ?. Nothing else..
Allah won?t change HIS Sunna?
55 Now allah says Their food (people of the book- you have completely left out Christians here and only keep claiming Jews..).. let?s hope their food till the day the quran revelation took place were with such restrictions as per 6146?. Then in the same 55 God says Your Food are lawful? Just apply logic dude?. Now what is Your food i.e. the food lawful in quran? That?s so simple? Whatever their lawful food and whatever Your lawful food in the end becomes with four restricted foods that are Dead animal, blood, meat of swine and the sacrificed other than God? Are foods mentioned in 6146 prohibited for those who take quran as guidance? so their foods already in our list and our food were not in their lawful list .. so with the verse 55 that also lawful for them? lifting the ban?..clear?
Is that mysterious science for you to crack?. Unless you are intoxicated and blinded?

Mahdi_Ibrahim

If you do not list the items that are forbidden for the Jews with evidence you cannot say what is halal for sure.
That remains your own assumption then and your argument is nullified.

ad nauseam..

Quote from good logic on Yesterday at 115257 AM
Well 6146 did not mention meat of pork either . It does not mean it is halal.

According to you, but not the Quran.

Quote from Mahdi Ibrahim on Yesterday at 083447 AM
Quote

Quote from good logic on Today at 074758 AM
according to your logic if Qoran does not mention it ,it is Halal.

You who have iman! do not ask about matters which, if they were made known to you, would make things difficult for you. If you do ask about them when the Qur´an is being sent down, they will be made known to you. Allah has ignored them (pork, for the jews, and order "The FOOD OF THOSE GIVEN THE BOOK (pork) is also halal for you)". Allah is Ever-Forgiving, All-Forbearing. (5101)

even if it is bad to eat pork, no problem... "Allah is Ever-Forgiving, All-Forbearing."(5101)

So where is your authority from the Quran that it is haram (things Allah does not mentioned in the Quran)?

What verse?

https//slideplayer.com/slide/9005189/27/images/46/The+ad+nauseam+fallacy+is+really+more+of+a+persuasive+tactic+rather+than+a+form+of+logic..jpg

Mahdi_Ibrahim

I am against what is not right

Yes? No? Is Lexicon and all those interpreters are wrong when they defined the word as "FLESH"?

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610488.msg421592#msg421592

Mahdi_Ibrahim

this is terrible... no logic/argument at all.

These people of ours have taken LordLaws apart from Him/Sunnatullah/Law of Nature/EcoLogic. Why do they not produce a clear argument concerning them? (Accordingly) Who could do greater wrong than someone who invents a lie against Allah/Sunnatullah/Law of Nature/EcoLogic? (1815)

Why don't they research the (interpretation and translation of the) Quran? Don't they realize that if it(s interpretation and translation) was from someone other than Allah/TRUTH (falsehood), they would find many discrepancies in it. (482)

https//scontent.fkul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51402309_2278600089023236_143549893070290944_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul1-1.fna&oh=2dc7da343d86c41a493a185cc5776aab&oe=5CB5B036

jkhan

So Lexicon and all those interpreters are wrong when they define it as the "FLESH" ? No reason? No evidence? No Logic? NOT EVEN the corroborative evidence etc from the Quran? It is "MEAT ALONE". PERIOD! yes

YES? since you took the meaning straight from the dictionary without considering the context of the verse/s in entire quran? That?s called exploring and comparing quran?
NO.. coz one word usually if not rarely has more than one meaning and even may add in the future out of necessity ? For example I am a fan of Cricket? when the ball hits the middle part of the bat they call it .. what a shot it was in the meat of the bat? So, we can use undeniably one word for any possible meaning.. word usages are developing ?.
But what is most appropriate to apply is in our hands with proper exploring and comparison of quran and not exploring the dictionaries..?. That?s even common sense? but I had to explain since you asked?
SO simple, Lexicon and other dictionaries (may be) right, but you took the wrong one?
LAHAM = MEAT ONLY IN QURAN.... handshake

Mahdi_Ibrahim

LAHAM = MEAT ONLY IN QURAN.... handshake

okay, got it.. you don't have to provide any counterargument (or solely relying on your personal opinion) for your claims.. and all these people are wrong, they are absolutely wrong for using the word "FLESH".. so what does that make you?

all maggoty and stinking meat, fruits etc are covered by 2173, 53, 6145, 16115... it is haram. These verses refer to "flesh" (of meat and fruits etc) and NOT MEAT ALONE. ELSE you will make halal all maggoty and stinking foods other than pork since there are no verses to prohibit maggoty and stinking meat (cow, goat, chicken, rabbit, camel, horse etc) and fruits etc; refer to verse 5101. Business people could use these rotten meats and sell it to customer for profit.

Why don't they research the (interpretation and translation of the) Quran? Don't they realize that if it(s interpretation and translation) was from someone other than Allah/TRUTH (falsehood), they would find many discrepancies in it. (482)

Noun
(21736) walaḥma and flesh إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةَ وَالدَّمَ وَلَحْمَ الْخِنْزِيرِ وَمَا أُهِلَّ بِهِ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ
(225956) laḥman (with) flesh وَانْظُرْ إِلَى الْعِظَامِ كَيْفَ نُنْشِزُهَا ثُمَّ نَكْسُوهَا لَحْمًا
(535) walaḥmu and flesh حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةُ وَالدَّمُ وَلَحْمُ الْخِنْزِيرِ وَمَا أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ
(614520) laḥma (the) flesh إِلَّا أَنْ يَكُونَ مَيْتَةً أَوْ دَمًا مَسْفُوحًا أَوْ لَحْمَ خِنْزِيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجْسٌ
(16147) laḥman meat وَهُوَ الَّذِي سَخَّرَ الْبَحْرَ لِتَأْكُلُوا مِنْهُ لَحْمًا طَرِيًّا
(161156) walaḥma and the flesh إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةَ وَالدَّمَ وَلَحْمَ الْخِنْزِيرِ وَمَا أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ
(22374) luḥūmuhā their meat لَنْ يَنَالَ اللَّهَ لُحُومُهَا وَلَا دِمَاؤُهَا وَلَٰكِنْ يَنَالُهُ التَّقْوَىٰ مِنْكُمْ
(231413) laḥman (with) flesh فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا
(351215) laḥman meat وَمِنْ كُلٍّ تَأْكُلُونَ لَحْمًا طَرِيًّا وَتَسْتَخْرِجُونَ حِلْيَةً تَلْبَسُونَهَا
(491222) laḥma (the) flesh أَيُحِبُّ أَحَدُكُمْ أَنْ يَأْكُلَ لَحْمَ أَخِيهِ مَيْتًا فَكَرِهْتُمُوهُ
(52223) walaḥmin and meat وَأَمْدَدْنَاهُمْ بِفَاكِهَةٍ وَلَحْمٍ مِمَّا يَشْتَهُونَ
(56211) walaḥmi And (the) flesh وَلَحْمِ طَيْرٍ مِمَّا يَشْتَهُونَ

(Word by Word) ...and the flesh (of)
Muhammad Asad ...and the flesh of
M. M. Pickthall ...flesh and
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) ...and the flesh of
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 193 ...and the flesh of
Shakir ...and flesh of
Wahiduddin Khan ...and the flesh of
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar ...and flesh of
Safi Kaskas ...and the flesh of
Abdul Hye ...the flesh of
The Study Quran ...and the flesh of
Abdul Majid Daryabadi ...flesh
Ahmed Ali ...and the flesh of
Ali Ãœnal ...and the flesh of
Ali Quli Qara'i ...the flesh of
Hamid S. Aziz ...and the flesh of
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali ...and the flesh of
Muhammad Sarwar ...the flesh of
Muhammad Taqi Usmani ...the flesh of
Shabbir Ahmed ...flesh
Syed Vickar Ahamed ...and the flesh of
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) ...the flesh of
Dr. Munir Munshey ...flesh
Dr. Kamal Omar ...and the flesh of
Talal A. Itani (new translation) ....and the flesh of
Maududi ....and the flesh of
A.L. Bilal Muhammad et al (201 ...the flesh of
Mohammad Shafi ...flesh of

LANE LEXICON

http//i66.tinypic.com/j5b2v6.jpg

http//i64.tinypic.com/dpzuia.jpg

not necessarily meat alone, but also to date and walnut.

Even the Lane Lexicon said it does not apply to "MEAT ALONE"...

it clearly said "maggoty/stinking" ... "applied" to

(flesh) of a date
(flesh) of a walnut

FLESH-meat

(FLESH (first subject matter) + MEAT / DATE / WALNET / FRUITS (second subject matter) ... flesh and meat not the same thing)

flesh

The flesh of a fruit or vegetable is the soft, inner part.

https//dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/flesh

inconsistently...

(2013 Edition) ...and the meat of pig

Meat ALONE...

Mahdi_Ibrahim

Dude in basic 04 prohibited things God of course didn't say decayed food, is it really necessary to say like addressing to fools... No... but still God used the word in 2168 "O men! eat the LAWFUL and GOOD THINGS out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy."

It does not said HARAM..

It does not said UNLAWFUL..

so we can eat maggoty and stinking beef (cow, goat, chicken, rabbit, camel, horse) etc?

We could use these rotten meats and sell it to customer for profit?

You who have iman! do not ask about matters which, if they were made known to you, would make things difficult for you. If you do ask about them when the Qur´an is being sent down, they will be made known to you. Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, All-Forbearing. (5101)

according to the above ayat, it is lawful and halal to sell maggoty and stinking meat to customers, even it is not good... and since nothing in the Quran said it is HARAM / UNLAWFUL. It is HALAL / LAWFUL.

kaltun

SLM,

first thing first i am not a sect or member of what Mahdi presents..... even its aloud to eat pork/swine, i will not eat it ..cause this meat is unhealhty meat......

read alot of post about this, this issue has been discussed before

The search function reveals this topic was discussed significantly, about 70 pages, e.g.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10385.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10514.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10610.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8584.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14318.0

The basic conclusion was IF you ignore the form the word is in and Quranic grammar, then yes, you can interpret it the way you imply. Such a view would be baseless conjecture however.

As a side note, please be careful on how you use PRL, e.g. see the guide on its homepage

Which root meaning is correct?
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm

i read few hours about this and honesty , i dont know what to think anymore, both sides are coming with decent arguments...

but what strikes me is , Allah chose his words carefully , so if check the words what has been used for this issue are

and

can anyone please tell me if these words are the same ? till now , nobody answered, all the attention goes to the word LAHM...

logical thought also is , when you slaughter an pig at that time, you didnt have refrigerator orso , so the meat would go bad within moments, this in contrast to other meat, so you could say this meat is

so if i re-read this only Surahal-Ma'idah 60 its talking about the animal swine ( &#1614 .... the rest (&#1613 also swine or pig ???

say if the meat is prohibit , i may consume other parts of this animal ? makes no sense...

if Allah explains the Quran in truth , why has he made pig-meat haram ... all other sins are explained why... but not on this meat ....

we can even eat all fruits of the sea

And He (is) the One Who subjected the sea for you to eat from it meat fresh and that you bring forth from it, ornaments (that) you wear them. And you see the ships ploughing through it, and that you may seek of His Bounty, and that you may (be) grateful. Quran 1614

so even scavengers are halal to us ?

(Aidid Safar) Indeed it is only prohibited on you the carrion and the blood and the contaminated meat and what has been legalised by way of - for other than God. Thus whoever is strained without malice and not being deliberate - surely there is no fault on him. Indeed God is forgiving - merciful.

cf http//aididsafar.com/translation.html

this makes sense....

again i am not saying pork is halal, just trying to find the turth

jkhan

SLM,

first thing first i am not a sect or member of what Mahdi presents..... even its aloud to eat pork/swine, i will not eat it ..cause this meat is unhealhty meat......

read alot of post about this, this issue has been discussed before i read few hours about this and honesty , i dont know what to think anymore, both sides are coming with decent arguments...

but what strikes me is , Allah chose his words carefully , so if check the words what has been used for this issue are

and

can anyone please tell me if these words are the same ? till now , nobody answered, all the attention goes to the word LAHM...

logical thought also is , when you slaughter an pig at that time, you didnt have refrigerator orso , so the meat would go bad within moments, this in contrast to other meat, so you could say this meat is

so if i re-read this only Surahal-Ma'idah 60 its talking about the animal swine ( ) .... the rest () also swine or pig ???

say if the meat is prohibit , i may consume other parts of this animal ? makes no sense...

if Allah explains the Quran in truth , why has he made pig-meat haram ... all other sins are explained why... but not on this meat ....

we can even eat all fruits of the sea so even scavengers are halal to us ?

this makes sense....

again i am not saying pork is halal, just trying to find the turth

check whether this translation of Khanazeer helps you...

https//www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/arabic-word-for-51e4841a9d729970415c0935dcacfe1b5cd5b188.html

good_logic

Peace kaltun
Your question
This word is singular

This word is plural

Peace Mahdi.
So you will not come up with a list of forbidden items for the Jews?
Can you come up with evidence that pork is halal for the Jews from Qoran.
The verse you are basing your argument on does not mention blood or dead animals or food for idols either.
This is a very logical question to ask you. You cannot make halal or haram anything unless you bring the list of all items forbidden for the Jews.
It remains just your assumption that pork is halal otherwise.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

So you will not come up with a list of forbidden items for the Jews?

Why should I?

The issue IS NOT what is forbidden for the Jews. (#strawman #redherring)

The issue what IS NOT FORBIDDEN for the Jews.

Because what IS NOT FORBIDDEN for the Jews is halal for muslim.

The FOOD (pork) OF THOSE GIVEN THE BOOK is also halal for you ... anyone who rejects iman (in pork as halal), his actions will COME TO NOTHING and in the Next World he will be among the LOSERS. (55)

Understand the issue?

Logic?

Can you come up with evidence that pork is halal for the Jews from Qoran.

Allah said nothing about it, and thus it is halal.

Verse 5.101 said it is HALAL.

and just to check, do you understand this ayat?

What it said?

You who have iman! do not ask about matters which, if they were made known to you, would make things difficult for you. If you do ask about them when the Quran is being sent down, they will be made known to you. Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, All-Forbearing. (5101)

You have been asking the same question from the start, and cannot show me any verses to counter the above argumentl ie. "if Allah said nothing about it, then be free...it is HALAL," Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving.

Similarly, Allah said nothing about pork was made haram for the Jews. Therefore, it is HALAL, be free to eat it... Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving; in case it is bad to eat pork.

good_logic

Peace Mahdi.
I gave you my counter argument that the verse you based your argument on has not listed all the items forbidden . Only additional items were listed there. Blood was not mentioned, dead animals were not mentioned, food for idols was not mentioned.
Why are they forbidden according to your logic?
I am asking you to give a complete list because you are not basing your argument on facts and clear verses of all the items. If you cannot,thenyour argument is nullified.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

I think you have comprehension issue..

What it said?

You who have iman! do not ask about matters which, if they were made known to you, would make things difficult for you. If you do ask about them when the Quran is being sent down, they will be made known to you. Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, All-Forbearing. (5101)

and logic issue.

Be free to repeat your issues. 16 pages... I'm done wasting time with an argument by repetition and pointless issue (#strawman_fallacy #redherring_fallacy), and listen to what others have to say/evidence/verses on this issue.

https//praxisratio.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/bart.jpg

good_logic

Peace Mahdi.
If you had proper evidence, you would have answered my point.
Because you based your argument on misunderstanding verse 6146, you now see the problem you have created with your assumption.
Simply you cannot provide proof of what you say.
That is fine by me. We take it as your own view of the verse.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

What it said?

You who have iman! do not ask about matters which, if they were made known to you, would make things difficult for you. If you do ask about them when the Quran is being sent down, they will be made known to you. Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, All-Forbearing. (5101)

You have been asking the same question from the start, and cannot show me any verses to counter the above argumentl ie. "if Allah said nothing about it, then be free...it is HALAL," Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving.

Similarly, Allah said nothing about pork was made haram for the Jews. Therefore, it is HALAL, be free to eat it... Allah has ignored them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving; in case it is bad to eat pork.

THE DEFINITION OF IGNORANT PEOPLE

267 And when Musa said to his people

"Allah commands you to sacrifice a cow

,"

they said, "What! Are you making a mockery of us?"

He said, "I seek refuge with Allah from being one of the ignorant!"

268 They said, "Ask your Lord to make it clear to us what it should be like."

He said, "He says it should be a cow, not old or virgin, but somewhere between the two.

So do as you have been told."

269 They said, "Ask your Lord to make it clear to us what colour it should be."

He said, "He says it should be a red cow, the colour of sorrel, a pleasure to all who look."

270 They said, "Ask your Lord to make it clear to us what it should be like. Cows are all much the same to us. Then, if Allah wills, we will be guided."

271 He said, "He says it should be a cow not trained to plough or irrigate the fields — completely sound, without a blemish on it."

They said, "Now you have brought the truth."

So they sacrificed it — but they almost did not do it.

(They almost did not make pork halal, and when Allah said nothing about pork was made haram for the Jews ... and The FOOD (pork) OF THOSE GIVEN THE BOOK is halal for you ... (55))