Another view on the polygamy issue
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Okay, thanks )
Salam!
See the word to word translation and other translations here
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/3/default.htm
Peace! -
peace -- definition is to the age of marriage; then no longer considered as such.
46 and test ye of l-yatm/the bereaved (orphaned) until when reach they of the marriage so if perceive you among them rational of so deliver ye of to them wealth theirs ...
then at marriageable age referred thus ...
1813 fit'yatun/young men
2433 fatayatikum/maidens yours
Salam!
Isn't plural of ? And what about your view about = womenfolk (3+)?
Peace! -
Salam!
See the word to word translation and other translations here
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/3/default.htm
Peace!Thanks.
Could you please state your view clearly? What do you think about the article I posted? -
Salam sister huruf!
Please excuse but I still am confused. However I will put this ayah in Arabic section and see what is wong with my understanding.
Peace!The translation he gives for 4.24 is totally ungrammatical, contrived and very much arranging for a meaning that the word rendered as married does nto have and in fact the word occurs another seven times and it is not so translated. That word and the words of the same root are in fact a casualty in the war to subvert the Qur'an and make it fit the delusions of the misguided.
So in this case nothing unexpected.
Who would want feminine poligamy? I surely would run away to Mars if something like that threatened me, but I am not all women exactly the same as all those men who cling to the monopoly of poligamy under whiever pretext are not all men.
The fact is, as Joseph Islam himself acknowledges, that the Qur'an does not forbid it, except where it is so arranged by interpreters and translators.
As to the other argument, absolutely flimsy an not even ingenious. Prohibition on demand for you.
Salaam
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Who's "he"?
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Isn't plural of ? And what about your view about = womenfolk (3+)?
singular
6152 l-yatmi (underage fatherless person)dual
1882 for boys (underage) two yatimayni/bereaved twoplural
4127 yatm (includes the bereaved mothers with children)l-nisi/the womenfolk (plural any age, use context); see below ties to females in general.
4176 and if be they of siblings menfolk of wanisan/and womenfolk (3+)
so to the male (gender) similitude apportion l-unthayayni/the two (females)e.g. 2/3 four sisters (1/6 each), 1/3 two brothers (1/6 each)
i.e. 1/3 to male gender equals exactly 1/3 the two femaleslikewise, always use context cross reference everything as to circumstances for the meaning.
peace
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no polygamy but only in a very exceptional cases..
• ..but IF you fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, then only one, or that your right hands possess (43)
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And never will you be able to deal justly between women even if you desired . (4129)
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O Prophet! Indeed, We have made lawful (vs unlawful / zina) to you your wives (to) whom you have given their bridal money and whom you rightfully possess from those (whom) Allah has given to you, and (the) daughters (of) your paternal uncles and (the) daughters (of) your paternal aunts and (the) daughters (of) your maternal uncles and (the) daughters (of) your maternal aunts who emigrated with you, and a woman believing if she gives herself to the Prophet if wishes the Prophet to marry her - only for you, excluding the believers. Certainly, We know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and whom they rightfully possess, that not should be on you any discomfort. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (3350)
.• IF any of you do not have the means to marry free women who are muminun, you may marry slavegirls (425)
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The author, it seems joseph islam.
You should debate him then.
The fact is, as Joseph Islam himself acknowledges, that the Qur'an does not forbid it, except where it is so arranged by interpreters and translators.
Where did you read this?
Who would want feminine poligamy? I surely would run away to Mars if something like that threatened me, but I am not all women exactly the same as all those men who cling to the monopoly of poligamy under whiever pretext are not all men.
Yep, not all men are the same and not all women are the same.
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no polygamy but only in a very exceptional cases..
• ..but IF you fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, then only one, or that your right hands possess (43)
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You will not be able to be completely fair between your wives, however hard you try. (4129)
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O Prophet! Indeed, We have made lawful (vs unlawful / zina) to you your wives (to) whom you have given their bridal money and whom you rightfully possess from those (whom) Allah has given to you, and (the) daughters (of) your paternal uncles and (the) daughters (of) your paternal aunts and (the) daughters (of) your maternal uncles and (the) daughters (of) your maternal aunts who emigrated with you, and a woman believing if she gives herself to the Prophet if wishes the Prophet to marry her - only for you, excluding the believers. Certainly, We know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and whom they rightfully possess, that not should be on you any discomfort. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (3350)
.• IF any of you do not have the means to marry free women who are muminun, you may marry slavegirls (425)
Thanks for the response.
Did you read the article I posted? Do you have a refutation for it? -
Thanks for the response.
Did you read the article I posted? Do you have a refutation for it?I read, but he's missing the point.. ie. THE CONDITION PRECEDENT for that rule. ..
A condition precedent is an event or state of affairs that is required before something else will occur. In contract law, a condition precedent is an event which must occur, unless its non-occurrence is excused, before performance under a contract becomes due, i.e., before any contractual duty exists.
The condition precedent.. "BUT IF"
no polygamy but only in a very exceptional cases..
• ..but IF you fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, then only one, or that your right hands possess (43)
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And never will you be able to deal justly between women even if you desired . (4129) <-- THE GENERAL/OVERRIDING RULEthus there are more to look into their numbers, it is misleading ..and vs.
Joseph Islam
FINAL THOUGHTS
Verse 43 does not appear to focus on stipulating an allowance of the number of wives. Rather, the focus seems to be concentrated on curtailing any potential injustice to an orphan with regards her wealth (4129). The Arabic term 'mathna wathulatha waruba'a' ((by/in) twos and threes and fours) seems to simply denote a multiplicity which can be affirmed against verse 351 which uses the same phrase to describe certain attributes of the angels.
The Quran seems not to either encourage or discourage polygyny or stipulate any particular numbers. This seems to be much in tandem with the previous scriptures. The Quran seems to recognise individual capacity and guidance is offered with respect to it.
Moreover, the impression one gets from a study of the scripture is that there seems to be little evidence of special 'Prophetic allowance' in earthly matters over and above what was given to the believers.
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singular
6152 l-yatmi (underage fatherless person)dual
1882 for boys (underage) two yatimayni/bereaved twoSalam!
Please define underage. Till which age a person can be called ?plural
4127 yatm (includes the bereaved mothers with children)Source?
l-nisi/the womenfolk (plural any age, use context); see below ties to females in general.
4176 and if be they of siblings menfolk of wanisan/and womenfolk (3+)
so to the male (gender) similitude apportion l-unthayayni/the two (females)e.g. 2/3 four sisters (1/6 each), 1/3 two brothers (1/6 each)
i.e. 1/3 to male gender equals exactly 1/3 the two femaleslikewise, always use context cross reference everything as to circumstances for the meaning.
peace
I always try to cross check and see the context. However, when one meaning is confirmed for a word then it remains the same in all situations.
Can you confirm who is the audience of 41-18?
Peace! -
Please define underage. Till which age a person can be called ?
see 46
Source?
see 4127
I always try to cross check and see the context. However, when one meaning is confirmed for a word then it remains the same in all situations.
incorrect depends on context.
likewise if you read carefully what was posted, cross referenced, etc., would not ask those questions.Can you confirm who is the audience of 41-18?
41 O you the humankind
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You should debate him then.
Where did you read this?
This is about a link posted by someone here which has Joseph Islam?s opinion.
I have given my comment to that link.
I suppose we could debate for ages, but the comments I give are all I have now the time and the mind to write. If anyone checks anybody can see the question by themselves, particularly if he or she has someknowledge of Arabic.
Salaam
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I read, but he's missing the point.. ie. THE CONDITION PRECEDENT for that rule. ..
A condition precedent is an event or state of affairs that is required before something else will occur. In contract law, a condition precedent is an event which must occur, unless its non-occurrence is excused, before performance under a contract becomes due, i.e., before any contractual duty exists.
The condition precedent.. "BUT IF"
thus there are more to look into their numbers, it is misleading ..and vs.
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=346.0
In the above link he gave this responseHere he gave this response I have yet to receive convincing evidence from the Quran that shows me clearly that God only sanctioned 1 wife as a rule. The only place we find the stipulation of 1 wife is 'if we fear we cannot do justice'. (fa-in khif'tum alla ta'dilu). Note that 'khauf' (fear) can be a legitimate fear and an unfounded fear. That is why the Quran separates the term 'khashiya' (a legitimate fear) with 'khauf'. See related article.
http//quransmessage.com/articles/fear%20FM3.htm
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1427.0
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I have yet to receive convincing evidence from the Quran that shows me clearly that God only sanctioned 1 wife as a rule.
Of course but in very exceptional cases.. .
and here it is, the rule for one wife. ...
no polygamy but only in a very exceptional cases..
• ..but IF you fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, then only one, or that your right hands possess (43)
.
And never will you be able to deal justly between women even if you desired . (4129) <-- Overriding rule
.
O Prophet! Indeed, We have made lawful (vs unlawful / zina) to you your wives (to) whom you have given their bridal money and whom you rightfully possess from those (whom) Allah has given to you, and (the) daughters (of) your paternal uncles and (the) daughters (of) your paternal aunts and (the) daughters (of) your maternal uncles and (the) daughters (of) your maternal aunts who emigrated with you, and a woman believing if she gives herself to the Prophet if wishes the Prophet to marry her - only for you, excluding the believers. Certainly, We know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and whom they rightfully possess, that not should be on you any discomfort. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (3350)
.• IF any of you do not have the means to marry free women who are muminun, you may marry slavegirls (425)
O Prophet! Indeed, We have made lawful (vs unlawful / zina) to you
• your wives (to) whom you have given their bridal money AND
• whom you rightfully possess from those (whom) Allah has given to you AND
• (the) daughters (of) your paternal uncles AND
• (the) daughters (of) your paternal aunts AND
• (the) daughters (of) your maternal uncles AND
• (the) daughters (of) your maternal aunts who emigrated with you AND
• a woman believing if she gives herself to the Prophet if wishes the Prophet to marry her
only for you, excluding the believers. (3350)
"Exceptional cases" = I did not do it of my own accord. (1882)
vs.
And they seek your ruling concerning the women (in 43). Say, "Allah gives you the ruling about them and what is recited to you in the Book concerning orphans girls whom you not give them what is ordained for them and you desire to marry them, and the ones who are weak of the children and to stand for orphans with justice. And whatever you do of good then indeed, Allah is about it All-Knowing. (4127)
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4127 and seeking decision your in the womenfolk say the god gives ruling you in them and what recited is upon you in the book in (concerning) yatm/bereaved l-nisi/the womenfolk the ones not thou gives them what written for them and thou hoping that thou marry ye them and those vulnerable from/among l-wil'dni/the youngsters ?
peace ? small sample of bereaved; obviously cannot separate mother from her underage children or marry underage girls. Therefore, if concerned then marry the bereaved mothers with underage children.
mother, daughter (age 17), daughter (age 7), son (age 9)
mother, daughter (age 17), daughter (age 7)
mother, daughter (age 17), son (age 9)
mother, daughter (age 7), son (age 9)mother, daughter (age 7)
mother, son (age 9)mother, daughter (age 17) ? not applicable
https//i.postimg.cc/VsTXKFb0/ch3v200-ch4v11.jpg
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4127... and then the overriding rule in 4129
And never will you be able to deal justly between women even if you desired . (4129) <-- THE GENERAL/OVERRIDING RULE
therefore
thus there are more to look into their numbers, it is misleading ..and vs.
or perhaps hand over the orphans for marriage to others.... if it is just, else.. just one or hand over for marriages from your right hand possess...
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Can someone please address this argument from the article
It can clearly be read, that the main focus of the verse is to prohibit any form of injustice occurring by compromising the 'orphans'. Verse 4127 seems to elaborate further by indicating that this was possibly due to men not giving the orphans prescribed portions due to desire of marriage.
The main 'draw' of verse 43 is not necessarily to stipulate a number of wives but rather, to keep men away from compromising the orphans.
We note the Arabic term "mathna wathulatha waruba'a" (Literally (by/in) twos and threes and fours) which seems to simply denote a multiplicity. The exact same phrase is used in 35.1 when describing the wings of angels and its multiplicity.
035001
"Praise be to God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who makes the angels, messengers with wings, (by/in) twos, and threes and fours (Arabic mathna wathulatha waruba'a). He adds to Creation as He pleases for God has power over all things"
Hardly anyone would argue that verse 35.1 is stipulating an exact combination of the number of wings of angels, 2, 3 and 4. Quite apart from an angel having 3 wings or any number of wings for that matter, the phrase clearly seems to be denoting a multiplicity.
Therefore, if the phrase "mathna wathulatha waruba'a" ((by/in) twos and threes and fours) is examined with the phrase read in 35.1, one concludes that verse 43 is not advancing a 'limiting allowance' to marry up to 4 wives. Rather, its purport seems to be focused in to drawing away from any potential injustice to the orphans by asking the believers to marry other believing women in whatever numbers.