Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
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Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say thisbut between 3 and 10. for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
PeaceHe is considering it noun of paucity whereas Maadudat has nothing to do with paucity.
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Salam,
It is classical Arabic grammatical rules ! Quran is came down in arabic..we are agree about this fact.
But before arguing, i would like to readjust some truths concerning my speechs If you look at my previous post you will realize that i never say that shahr = 30 days (i said "Shahr" means a lunar-month) or "ayyman maddtin" is between 7 and 10 but between 3 and 10.
Second we have to study specific rules from a language.
- Example you will be agree that "ayyman" means at least 3 right ? But translators say "days". Or a person who doesn't knows arabic but only english could belive that it begins at 2 days and not 3 ! the number 3 is INCLUDED into the expression "ayyman". It is an arabic grammatical rule different from English grammar.
- Another example. When you say to your friend "I am going on holidays ONE week". Your friend understand that you mean 7 days and not 30 days right? It is a part of his culture, English culture.
So for arabic people who listen for the first time al-quran when Muhammad tell them ""ayyman maddtin" they understood this expression as a very small number, more than 3 and that they count with their fingers (10) and never a big number like 29 or 30.
it still depends on the litteral context as the quran demonstrate us ! (3 or 7 or 10). And this is our best evidence.
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural
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you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la
-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)
I give you an example The word CHAHR which means MONTH
To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an
(92) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra
(936) "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve , in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.While in English, translation does not change.
To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyman maddtin". But the consensus is about a little number and 29-30 days is too big.
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-------------------------------------Salam Layth,Thank you for your remark (in green in your post).
You're right there is another option (fifth - see my first post for others options). It looks like option 1 and 2 (separate in time but the second erase the first one) but this time you merge the 2 recommendations.
But for me, as i said to Wakas, 2183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts (2183-184) and (2185-187). So these 2 parts are linked. You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2184) doesn't appaears in the second part (2185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who really desires to make a "SIYAM". The first part is a general recommendation and the second part describes the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.But you make an EXCELLENT REMARK quoting the ayat (7142) where God separates 30 to 10 to combine them to give the number 40. We are on the right track to find a solution..God does not do that by accident..
However, i don't believe in SIYAM = fasting. And in english the expression "Fast IT" (as we can find on the website Quranix.com) is grammatically incorrect (intransitive verb - no C.O.D possible). Hope they will change their translation.
Peace
Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say this
but between 3 and 10. for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
PeacePeace Good logic (so good nickname ).
I respect that you don't want to listen experts on Classical arabic grammar rules.
So it remains Al-Quran and your logic !(22035) maddtin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.(3249) maddtin "That is because they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant
=> 7 days.(21842) maddtin "A few number of days."
=> 3-10 days or 30 ?(2807) maddatan // parrallel with ayat (324)
=> 7 days.(12205) maddatin "And they sold him for a low price, a few dirhams, and they regarded him as insignificant.
=> A Few ? some coins ? 3-10 or 30 coins ?(1187) maddatin "And if We delay for them the retribution until a time-limit set, they will say "What has kept it?" Alas, on the day it comes to them, nothing will turn it away from them, and they will be surrounded by that which they used to mock.
=> A Few/some generations ? 3-10 or 30 generations ?
706 They see it (day of retribution) as far away.
707 And We see it as near.For the ayat (2184) my research (Adding rhetorical analysis) points forward to 10 days. But it is too long to develop proofs here because i need to expose all the rhetorical analysis of surah 2 (the biggest one !).
Peace
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(22035) maddtin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.What is the context? Which are days talked about; hurrying what in two days, and delaying what?
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Peace Iyyaka.
These contexts are diferent, quote(22035) maddtin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.(3249) maddtin "That is because they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant
=> 7 days.The bottom line is that Ayyam Maadudat could be any number of days in the context of the measure . So 30 days in the context of 365 days is "few days" , why not?
Can you not see that in the above verses one you say is 3 days ,the other is 7 days. i.e they are not exactly the same. So why restrict "few days" to 10 days as a limit? why not 30 or...?
May be you do not really see the point I am making.?
It remains your assumption.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Iyyaka.
These contexts are diferent, quote
(22035) maddtin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.
(3249) maddtin "That is because they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant
=> 7 days.
The bottom line is that Ayyam Maadudat could be any number of days in the context of the measure . So 30 days in the context of 365 days is "few days" , why not?
Can you not see that in the above verses one you say is 3 days ,the other is 7 days. i.e they are not exactly the same. So why restrict "few days" to 10 days as a limit? why not 30 or...?
May be you do not really see the point I am making.?
It remains your assumption.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Salam Good logic,
Yes i understand your assumption. Like @Mazhar you think like people the option 3 i mentionned in my first post is correct.
I respect and i understand this way to think because like that there is no interpretation problem between ayats 2184 and 2185, without using abrogation technic. But what it interests me is what God said in the Quran, happy with or not.But i don't understand why you don't understand that this expression means a very few Number (between 3 and 10 so yes it can be flexible that's why God uses this expression like arab from the beginning of the 7th century used it). Please read carefully my posts.
Also, have you read the passage about the plural concerning the word SHAHR ?I try to find solid proofs from quran himself. After everyone is free to accept them or not. God knows better.
So we have 2 scenarios and i have choosen the first one - more logic (i repeat scenarios in the order i mentionned above (in days))First 3 - 7 - 10 - 7 - 3/10 - 3/10
Second 3 - 7 - 30 - 7 - 3/10 - 3/10
---- Other proof -------
As i said to@Wakas, 2183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts (No "wa" or "fa" or "inna" or "aw"...to separate these 2 parts)
- (2183-184) => General recommendation
- (2185-187) => Itemize the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.
BUT these 2 parts are linked.
You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2184) doesn't appears in the second part (2185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who REALLY desire to make a "SIYAM".So, this organization will not be possible if "Ayyaman Maadoudat" means "Numbered/Counted"
NB again, i made others researchs to undertsand 2183-187 (misunderstood like 2240 i already mentionned in another subject)and it confirms the first scenario
Peace and please God "...My Lord, increase my knowledge." (20114)
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peace good logic,
The same term ‘Ayyamn ma’doodat’ is used in Hajj verse(2203), where the count is 3-10(2196, 189)
2203 "And remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat, so who hurried in two days, so no sin on him, and who delayed…"
The context of 2203 is Hajj, so
remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat = remember God in Hajj days -----------------(1)2196 says “so fasting three days in the Hajj” => normal Hajj days are 3 ---------------(2)
Combining (1) & (2)
remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat => remember God in Hajj days => remember God in 3 days (normal case).Applying in 2203,
"And remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat/3 days(normal case), so who hurried in 2 days, so no sin on him, and who delayed…"Now we have to find the extent of delaying (i.e. 3+), Coming back to 2196
“…so what became easy/possible from the offering, so who does not find, so fasting three days in the Hajj, and seven (days) if/when you returned, that is ten complete (days), that (is) to whom not is his family present (near/at) the Temple the Forbidden/Sacred...”
The remaining 7 days of fasting is also part of the Hajj. Isn’t it?
i.e. among those who cannot find an offering, the natives of the Sacred Temple complete their remaining part(fasting) of Hajj by 7 more days of fasting. So they can continue their Hajj practices in these 7 days if they want to delay/do more. This is also applicable for non-natives if they do not want to return after 3 days. See 2196(..and seven (days) if/when you returned..).i.e. maxmum Hajj days are 10. It’s also observed from 2189 (Full moon to crescent stage)
Quote from article http//islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html
“We also know from 2189 that we should come into houses from the obvious front doors and not from the obscure backs. This hints to us that the "7ajj"/debate starts with the obvious full moon and that the unobvious crescent is what ends the "7ajj"/debate. This way it lasts for 10 total days, which is the exact period from full-moon to crescent”Thus Ayyamn ma’doodat = 3-10 days.
Still, do you think shahr=the whole lunar cycle?
How can you imagine ~continuous 60 days of starvation(day time+Fajr) as punishment/compensation for carelessness?( i.e. for killing a believer by mistake/by accident/without any intention. -492)
But if shahr = Full-moon, two consecutive full-moons is no that much hard i.e. 10 days(since crescents provide timing -2189) of the 1st full-moon, then after ~20 days interval (no sawm) again 10 days from the next full-moon.(equivalent to two Ramadan)
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Peace Mohammed.
I disagree with you.
Two different subjects/topics/?
I am talking about Sawm on its own not Hajj. mixed with sawm!!!!Your post is irrelevant.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
How can you imagine ~continuous 60 days of starvation(day time+Fajr) as punishment/compensation for carelessness?( i.e. for killing a believer by mistake/by accident/without any intention. -492)
He would already be in deep distress for what happened to his companion by his hand.
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Peace Mohammed.
I disagree with you.
Two different subjects/topics/?
I am talking about Sawm on its own not Hajj. mixed with sawm!!!!Your post is irrelevant.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Salam Good logic,Mohammed,
From my point of view, even if we disagree with the definition of the word "Shahr", Mohammed was right when He pointed towards ayats number 2196 (the word SIYAM appears) and 2203. All is linked, connected in the Quran as i try to demonstrate through Rhetorical analysis of the text (start from his context and don't make of this text a pretext!).
The problem, as you raised Good logic, it fits the definition of the word SIYAM.
In traditionnal view there is not a lot of difference SIYAM is about "fasting from food, sex and drink" (Arabic root) and SWAM is about "fasting from speaking" (Probably Hebrew root). But if it was not the case...I let here the debate coz It is not the main subject of this thread.
I already provided parts of the answer by analysing the CRUCIAL importance of the ayat 2240 here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg423877#msg423877As i mentionned above, ayats 2183-184 and 2185-187 are 2 parts of a same subject (From the general to the particular).
and it is another quranic proof for saying "Ayaman Maadoudat" is about 3-10 days.
But ,the segment in 2185 "and, who is sick or traveling, then, determination of other days. God desires for you the facility and not the difficulty " put the problem of an apparent repetition since it has already been said in 2184" but who of you is sick or traveling, then determination of other days ". However, we note in 2184 the presence of a collective "among you" (minkum). On the other hand, since it is said in 2185 "who is sick or on a journey" without this same brand of the collective, it is now that this concerns those who among the belivers are committed to make a SIYAM." And it confirms our analysis of the Rhetorical analysis of this part of text.Peace
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I just said that traditionnal view don't make a big difference between SAWM and SIYAM by using for both the word FASTING.
Yes, as God explains it in the QURAN, SWAM means "Fasting from speaking to others (silence - please meditate on this)". But SIYAM doesn't mean FASTING coz you have a problem with ayat 2185 (as i mentionned many times).I had a look at your translation of ayat 2185 to know how you bypass questions concerning this grammatical point (falyaum'hu) and it confirms you change what god says to be conform to your own vision of SIYAM.
What the Quran literally says
- So whoever witnesses among you the month then he should "???" it.
Your tanslation (some words in red don't even appear !)
- Therefore, if he who reaching adulthood amongst you was present at home in this month, thereat, he should observe it by fasting.
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I had a look at your translation of ayat 2185 to know how you bypass questions concerning this grammatical point (falyaum'hu) and it confirms you change what god says to be conform to your own vision of SIYAM.
What the Quran literally says
- So whoever witnesses among you the month then he should "???" it.
Perhaps I twice asked you to learn as to what type of verb is whereby you could perceive what means get added.
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Salam,
A-Quran uses twice the verbal form I of the noun iym (م http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(218517)
Verb (form I) - to "fast" =>
(218427) tam -
V ? 2nd person masculine plural imperfect verb, subjunctive mood
PRON ? subject pronoun(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT ? prefixed result particle
IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lm
V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun2 remarks about these "mood"
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subjunctive mood = Subjunctive forms of verbs are typically used to express various states of unreality such as wish, emotion, possibility, judgement, opinion..It is confirmed by the Quran in 2184 when he says "tam is better for you if you know". It confirms the definition of the word "kutiba" in 2183 as "Strongly recommended, invited to.." but not an absolute obligation in "d?n".
We can also understand why God tells us, in 2183-184, Something about "fid'yatun" = ransom... -
"jussive mood" = The jussive (abbreviated JUS) is a grammatical mood of verbs for issuing orders, commanding etc..
So, in one case (2183-184), God ask us strongly "to make a SIYAM" without obligation and in 2185-187 to "make a SIYAM" but with obligation. It is an apparent contradiction ! Impossible for "ahl al-quran" (people of the Quran).
It confirms what express the rhetorical analysis of these ayats (2183-187) that we have 2 blocks (but linked together)
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2183-184 => General recommendation with a number known by arabs (for me 10 days) without obligation
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2185-187 => Details about how to make a siyam for people who commit to do it.
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- Example of Jussive mood in arabic - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jussive_mood#Arabic =>
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The jussive is used after the preposition li- 'to' to express a command to a third person.li-yaf?al-hu
to-do.jus.3sg.masc-it
'Let him do it.'
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The same scheme in (2185) ! "then he should "fast" it." => another translation is wrong (Just the word "fast" is incorrect coz it is an intransitive verb). Otherwise it manipulates (good intention or not) what god says. It is clear.-
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- Example of Jussive mood in arabic - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Peace
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(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT ? prefixed result particle
IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lm
V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronounGood, this is the approach. Now also mention Baab of the verb. I think you know the concept of additional - special meanings of Baab.
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The approach is GLOBAL.Examining all SIGNS from god is more important.
Give us more detail about the set pattern of the baabs using in 2185 and his implication in his understanding, if you want (with reference if possible). Thanks.
Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.
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The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
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Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.
The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.
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The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
Thank you, it confirms my view, but it changes not really what God says here !
Even "exhausting the month by fasting." is very confusing...So much cunning to try to twist the meaning of this sentence.Sorry, but are you blind about the use of SIYAM here (re-read also above my post about "Example of Jussive mood in arabic" - so clear..)
(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT prefixed result particle
IMPV prefixed imperative particle lm
V 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON 3rd person masculine singular object pronounFasting is not APPROPRIATE. Its is INCORRECT. God gives you signs to be sure to not to be wrong.
By using the PRON God indicates you that fasting is not the good meaning.Moreover, the form of this verb is the FORM I
Form 1 - (fa3ala)
Expresses the general verbal meaning of the root in questionSo the root SWM (Fasting/abstaining) is not exactly the same then SYM (using here in 2185).
NB it is my last message on this thread about the root SIYAM coz i deviate from the main subject, even if all is linked (probably an another thread will be open to evaluate it - God willing)
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peace good logic,
I never mixed sawm in Ramadan with that in Hajj.
The title of my post is/was What is Ayyamin ma’doodat according to the Qur’anpeace Iyyaka,
Probably, the reason for the difference (sawm/swiyaam) would be,
Maryam’s sawm was only for one day (singular)
1926
…so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to The Merciful, a sawm/fast/abstinence, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human/humankind.And in other occurrences (e.g. 2183, 187, 196, 589) sawm is for more than one day/minimum 3days, that’s why swiyaam (plural).
And Maryam’s sawm was a special sawm, therefore it cannot be compared with sawm(swiyaam) in Ramadan.
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Peace Mohammed.
My point is this
How few are "Ayam Maadudat"? It depends on the measure given.
Like 29/30 days in the context of 365 days are "Ayam Maadudat", Why not?
GOD bless you.
Peace.