Truth Seeking & Soul searching

TMK

Peace

dear submitters

i was born in a traditional muslim family and i was brought up
with piles and piles of cultural baggage which was presented as
Islam. I started to realise that most of it was not true Islam
when i started studying A-level Islamic studies
and philosophy at college. I came across some very mind opening
philosophies and ideas. It also gave me the opportunity to learn
about Islam in an objective way. i did take my religius studies
teacher very seriously when he said you must abandon all that
you know when you come into the class in order to benefit in the
truth seeking involved in philosophy.

I found religious studies very facinating and i did question
everything that i had known previously and that i subsequently
came across. I would not say that i becaqme an aethiest as i
knew that in my heart that a greater being did exist. I was not
afraid to ask myself the most soul searching questions in order
to abolish any falsehoods that existed in my life. This meant
that i did spend along time in reflection thinking that if i was
sincere God would guide me. I did spend time at university
moving from one group of friends to another and experimenting
with their lifestyles. I was very open minded and i did
experience some extremes.

I found it very difficult to settle into a particular way of
life simply becasuse someone had decided that this is how it
should be. I would always question my friends especially
religious people from all religions. I was especially critical
of Islam. I was not religious after i left college in fact quite
the opposite, although i never ceased thinking about God and the
meaning of life. On the outside i was a normal University
student part of the crowd, but deep down i was deeply upset with
the lack of meaning in my life and those around me and in the
world at large ( all the falsehood and blind faith etc).

After approx three years after completeing my Religious studies
course at college i can say that i knew for sure that god exists
and that Islam was the best religion to explain the purpose of
life. I would say that after all the reflection, doubting and
searching Reality came and slapped me in the face. God gave me a
huge wake up call i knew for certain with both mind and heart
that God exists. For my friends it was like a sudden shock to
see me change overnight but of course the searching had gone on
for quite a few years . I knew than that i had to now develop my
knowledge and experience. i started getting involved in the
university islamic society in order find out more and spread the
message of God. This is when i came across some of the most
ignorant, arrogant and narrow minded people. I always knew that
i had to be careful about what i should say. So i would only
make subtle suggestions of disagreement. I was on a learning
curve myself they had been practicing muslims longer than me and
i was more interesed in listening and learning from them.
I discovered that the muslims are divided into so many different
groups and that most of them them had been taught to
unquestionably follow what they parents and individual
communities practiced, just like a culture, no individual
thought or efort had been put in. Quite often people would try
to make me join their particular group and this would mean
criticising and slandering each other. i was amazed at how
foolish they all were. I knew that many of the so called Islamic
practices were out dated and cultural. So i was interested in
applying a modern interpretation of Islam. However i did come
across Muslims that would not pray as they felt they didint have
to, some would say you ust pray 5 times. They were two extremes the tratditionalist and the
Morderist/westernist (apologists). I felt thst Islamic law should change in order to
reflect the times. It just didnt fit how some of the laws did
not make sense. I would try my best to find the so called wisdom
behind them. I came across so called wahabis and sufis. I
befriended all the different groups and i would try out their
version of Islam with a clear heart and without prejudice just
in case they had something of worth or truth.

I would read their hadith quotations about how their versions of
Islam was correct ( "our scholars are better than yours!!!)". cry Some
of the hadiths were dubious. I new that many aspects of mainstream
Islam were incorrect but i found it difficult to find the
evidence in the Quran and sunna. It was too big a task for me to
spend my life trying to find the truth by reading everyones
differing versions of quran and hadith etc.

Anyway i had become a beleiver in God after my second year at
university and after another three years of experimenting with
different Muslims and staying open minded i had learnt quite a
lot about the different groups quite fast. I was determined
enough to spend time with these people in order to learn and i
allowed them to ridicule me for my sometime (what seemed to
them) silly naive questions. I learnt that most Muslims were not
interested in the truth and were content in living in their own
narrow world of make beleif of saints and a glorius history of
angelic sahabas. I found them so impractical and frutrating.

I finally came into true submission at around March 2004. I was
looking for an Islamic definition of the ego and i amazingly
came acros the green Submission website. It looked familiar i
think i may have breifly come across it before and in the back of
my mind i knew that i had read an impressive article of some
sort. I just felt that i had seen this before, i (i may not
have).

I can honestly say that i read everything on the website and i
simply could not stop reading . Everyday i had to read it until
they was no more to read.It had everything that i had always
felt to be true with all the the evidence and clarity that i
needed. I didnt have to advocate changing Islamic law anymore
(shariah) as the true islamic laws are perfect. Although i was concerned about some of the convenient assumptions that were amade on some topics like salat Hajj practices being passed on from Abraham I felt that i
was now truly free. i remeber during my college years being
fascinated by the statement that those whoe beleive in TAWHID
are truly free. Now i had truly found it, no more diversions
from scholars and hadith etc.

After seeing this site 2pac Notts recommende this site and i have come across even more mind opening philosophies here. I have read pretty much every article on this site. I do not feel as lonely now! I have now stopped performing salat as i am not sure about it anymore after reading articles here. The Arab conspiracy article was fascinating. That seems to make sense. However i still have to verify many things myself.

I now would like to meet some submitters that beleive in God alone.

I thank God for the continuance guidance.

Whenever i think i have found the truth it seems that their is always someone that can falsify it.This means constant TRUTH SEEKING is required.
Peace

asdfjk

peace TMK

and thanks for sharing your story. Its been quite a journey for you already but inshallah you will be guided to an ever better understanding of Allah through your openmindedness and willingness to question and verify.

God bless you

asdfjk

TMK

thanks
D

i hope the people on this site can help me as i have very limited knowledge on quran. So i will need to learn and study the Quran alot more.

However which translation can u recommend ?

thanks

Tay

Peace TMK,

Welcome, and thanks for sharing your story. It's amazing to me how similar most stories are. There is surely something amiss with mainstream Islam. Hopefully, the next generation of bright minds will not have to venture so far to find a place of truth-seeking.

Looking forward to exchanging ideas with you.

Peace,
Tay

asdfjk

thanks
D

i hope the people on this site can help me as i have very limited knowledge on quran. So i will need to learn and study the Quran alot more.

However which translation can u recommend ?

thanks

Peace TMK

I personally use several. I like Muhammad Asad's translation a lot, but I use the Free Minds one too and the Yusuf Ali translation as well. The only thing is to be aware that many translation include the biases of their translators. I think this is especially true of the Yusuf Ali translation.

the following link is maintained by Wakas who posts a lot here - its got a lot of good links for helping one with quran study. hope you find useful

http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/Quran_study_tools.htm

salaams

asdfjk

khalil

Peace TMK

I found your story interesting. I believe all who seek will eventually find what they seek. Set truth seeking as your highest goal and none shall be lost at sea for long.

Regarding translations, I personally read Yusuf's (I have not read Free-Minds from front to back but IMO it is a very nice clear translation from what i have read). What I reccomend is that you do not place to much emphasis on the the translator. Rather focus on the descriptions used in relation to certain words. Read Chapter 107 for an example.

Have a good day. )

pz

humility

Welcome to the boards!

This is a very nice story. may God continue to guide you )

TMK

Peace
Thanks for the welcome everyone and i will check out the Quran translations that you have all recomended.

I do look forward to exchanging ideas with all of you

Do the moderattors of this website agree on matters such as

salat
Pilgrimage
and other rituals

or do they differ considerably

It seems like certain words e.g. salat have many meaning and people tend to pick the meaning that they want.

some people on this site beleive Pilgrimage should be in Jerusalem, some think that it shouldnt be done at all/

All parties use logic, but logic is a double edged sword. I can logically argue for or aginst the exisence of God even.

is it possible that ppl that are for or against Hajj for example can both be right?

if both cannot be right, what is the criteria for judging it as the truth? Remember both parties are using the Quran to back up their arguments. So can we really say the Quran is the criteria? if the anwer is yes then both parties are right, but both claim that the other parties interpretation is wrong.

Surely if we are to move forward as a unified communitywe have to settl our differences here. or do we agree upon some basic prinicples that are canoot be tampered with (constitution) and then the rest is open to interpretation (debate like parlimant).

Or do we all agree that the more variety of opinions we have based on God alone usng Quran alone will benefit the community.

Maybe we should think along the following lines establish a constitution based on Quran. These principles become the rule of law cannot be violated like Universal Declaration of Human Rights. People then suggest their particular interpretation of particular verses of Quran (those verses that can be argued in many ways e.g. salat etc) These suggestions are debated and then voted upon by the commmunity(society). That particuar interpretation is implemented for a period of time (e.g. 4 years). Then at next election voting period, peole can argue a different interpretation or more enlightened ones as time passes by and knowlege increases.

? ?

maybe this wont work but how else do we cater for the inevitable differences of each individual human being.

thanks

Peace

Tay

Peace TMK,

You stated,

maybe this wont work but how else do we cater for the inevitable differences of each individual human being.

The inevitable differences are just that, and we wouldn't be different if not by design. Remeber, God tells us we could have all been made as one people without difference, but we were made different so that we may learn from each other, test each other, and outdo each other in righteousness.

The glue that bonds us is belief in the One God, belief in the Hereafter, and the striving to remain righteous. All else, imo, are details for individual guidance.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

zenje

Do the moderattors of this website agree on matters such as

salat
Pilgrimage
and other rituals

or do they differ considerably

There's always some differences here and there. I would like to add that you don't have to align your posts with that of moderators or the majority here. As long as you abide by the Forum Rules, you shouldn't have any problems here.

Peace and Welcome. D

TMK

peace Zenjie D

thanks for the welcome. i have a question for you and everyone that wishes to answer.

Why did The God create the universe and mankind when The God knew that the majority of people will not worship The God. Therefore The God knew that most of the humans will end up in hell.

This means The God has allowed humans to take upon themselves a test that The God knew most peole would fail.

why did The God create us?

surely The God could have avoided all the pain that humans will suffer in hell if The God did not create us.

I know that humans may have asked for free will and responibility. If a child wants to play with fire the parents will not let the child because the parents are aware that the child will harm themselves.

Even though we may have asked for free will or responsibility surely God will have known about the destruction we will make and the inevitable failure of the majority of humans. So The God could have avoided all that and should not have created us or allowed us the responsibility.

I know that The God odes not like robots but wanted humans to have free will.

But surely it is unfair to create a test so difficult that the majority of humans will fail it(it is a fact that the majority will fail - see quran). Humans are so easily misled bt the devil that it seems unfair. cry

So why did God create such a difficult test for such a weak creature as a human? ? ? (you cannot say it is easy because the majority will fail - Quran- or that we wanted it- God knows everything and could have denied us free will to prevent the suffering)

Peace ( ?

Tay

Peace TMK,

I've not seen any instance in the Qur'an that leads one to believe that the majority of people will go to hell. Take 6116 for instance...

Khalifa 6116 If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.

This doesn't mean the majority are astray. It just means following people will lead you astray, because people talk too much. They say things even when they know little of what they are saying. It means the only guidance that is without error is from God.

IMO, the fate majority of people will be just fine, as is stated in 569...whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, and helps people, for them shall be no fear from without, nor shall grief touch them from within.

Peace,
Tay

zenje

Peace TMK,

Ah I remember the days when a cousin of mine asked me these exact questions and I was perplexed in answering them. In those sunni days the next best thing was run to your local Imam to get a quick remedy... I didn't get it either. Instead I was given the - don't ask too may questions - treatment.

So I got to studying the quran myself and when I did, these very questions and others stopped 'bothering' me. There's different theories you can go by, here's one article I thought to be interesting, some time ago - Free Choice By Brother Ayman .

On the other hand let me ask you a question, and please try to investigate it before you answer yourself (you don't have to reply here). Now this may seem far fetched or even taboo, but here it is -
This means The God has allowed humans to take upon themselves a test that The God knew most peole would fail.

Does The God Know? Think about it, then get back to me... if at all possible with some verses, for back up. Try not to think in numbers, as in majority of the people etc. That really doesn't matter. Just think on an individual basis. And remember...

And We will place the scales of justice for the Day of Resurrection, so that no soul will be wronged in the least. Even if it was the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it. And We are sufficient as a Reckoner.

So why did God create such a difficult test for such a weak creature as a human? ? ? (you cannot say it is easy...
Oh yes I can!

Peace!

PS - I will post a thread in which we had a conversation about this subject, after you think about that question I asked. wink

TMK

Hi

sorry t have taken so long to get back to you. I have not had much time to think about it. I have been very busy.

Zenjie wrote
Does The God Know?

This reply is off the top of my head i have not reflected upon it much.

The God is all knowing He knows the future etc. Even of one or two people go to hell for eternity than surely The God would have known and could have prevented them from Hell by not testing them? By not giving free will !

Peace

zenje

Thank you for your reply TMK,

I will direct you to a thread which we kinda discussed something like this. Take a look, whenever you have the chance, then you can reply further here, if it's of any help.

The Test

Again, other than the verses provided as proof, the rest is individual understanding. We can only discuss, debate and share what we think we know. Only the God knows the absolute truth.

Peace.

TMK

hi zenjie

i read your link and it does not prove that The Test is easy

?Did the people think that they will be left to say ?We believe? without being put to the test?. While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.? (292-3)

?Or did you expect that you would enter Paradise, while the example of those who were before you came to you; they were stricken with adversity and hardship, and they were shaken until the messenger and those who believed with him said ?When is God?s victory?? Yes indeed, God?s victory is near.? (2214)

?And We will test you with some fear and hunger, and a shortage in money and lives and fruits. And give good news to those who are patient. (2155)

?For they had come from above you, and from beneath you; your eyes were terrified, and the hearts reached to the throat, and you harboured doubts about God. That is when the believers were truly tested; they were severely shaken up. (3310-11)

?And from among the people are those who say ?We believe in God,? but if he is harmed in the sake of God, he equates the persecution inflicted by the people with God?s punishment. And if a victory comes from your Lord, he says ?We were with you!? Is God not fully aware of what is inside the chests of the worlds? God is fully aware of those who believed, and He is fully aware of the hypocrites.? (2910-11)

basically by reading the above we can see that it is difficult. i am not really interetsed in whether God know we will beleiv e or not. The definition of God is all knowing so He does know what will happen who goes to heaven and hell. Also God is outside of time so the everything has happened ever since The God existed. The God did not need to say i think ill invent humans with free will and see what they get up to.

My point is this if God is the all merciful why create a test (difficult or easy doesnt matter) whereby people(afew or many doesnt matter) will goto hell forever (being in hell for ever is a immensly severe punishment to give to anyone). it would have been better not to test us?
Plz answer this question above thats whast i would like an answer to.

what does get out of it apart from deciding who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. If we beleive or not he is in charge the Amighty.

whats the point of handing out extrene pleasure and extreme pain.

peace.

zenje

i read your link and it does not prove that The Test is easy
Actually the link wan't about the test being easy. I said that I can say the test is easy... doesn't mean it is for everyone else. wink

i am not really interetsed in whether God know we will beleiv e or not.
That's the question I brought up to you. If you're not interested, that's fine too.

My point is this if God is the all merciful why create a test (difficult or easy doesnt matter) whereby people(afew or many doesnt matter) will goto hell forever (being in hell for ever is a immensly severe punishment to give to anyone). it would have been better not to test us?
Because we asked for it. (Why do I have the feeling, this answer will not be satisfactory? twisted )

And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves ?Am I not your Lord?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness.? Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
The ones who break their pledge to God after making its covenant, and they sever what God had ordered to be delivered. And they make corruption on Earth; these are the losers.
And recall God?s blessings over you and His covenant that He has bound you with, for which you have said ?We hear and obey,? and be aware of God; for God knows what is inside the chests.

Peace!

TMK

HI Zenjie

Thanks for the reply now we are getting closer to the quesyion that i would like answered. My point is that i know humans asked for it But my point is if i can dare say it God Should have refused us this request as He knows some will fail. Just like a child may ask for something that may harm him/her but as wise parents we refuse potentially harmful things because we can see the harmful consequenes.

You may say God knows best we cant question The Gods judgement. Basically God shoud have saved us from the harm that will befall mankind by simply not allowing us to take part in such a test, overriding our (humans) naive and bold attempt to take on the trust.

I will clarify the question again

Even though we asked for the trust and even though The GOD knows best for allowing it to us he could have prevented us from the torment of hell by denying us the trust no matter how much we stupidly asked for it.
Just like we would deny a childs request for something that could potentially harm them. so why did The GOd allow it ?
The God knows best is not the answer i am looking for (i cannot regard that as a proper answer, or that we simply cannot say what The God should do because we do not understand)

thanks i appreciate all your input its the best discussion ive ever had from anyone on this topic.

peace

Tahir

zenje

My point is that i know humans asked for it But my point is if i can dare say it God Should have refused us this request as He knows some will fail. Just like a child may ask for something that may harm him/her but as wise parents we refuse potentially harmful things because we can see the harmful consequenes.
What God should or shouldn't have done... I'm afraid I cannot even come close to comprehending, let alone try to answer. Hopefully, if someone else wants to tackle that one, or maybe one day you will get the answer... only God knows. wink Secondly, this analogy of parents/children and God/humans is often used... perhaps rightly so, thinking in our very limited capacity. But I wouldn't use that. While the child has no idea what's going on, we, humans knew only too well what we were getting into. That's why I say, if one lands in hell, it's only because we actually wanted to. idea

Basically God shoud have saved us from the harm that will befall mankind by simply not allowing us to take part in such a test, overriding our (humans) naive and bold attempt to take on the trust.
God is saving us this second... more than we can ever imagine. As for humans, naivety has nothing to do with it, however arrogance does.

The God knows best is not the answer i am looking for (i cannot regard that as a proper answer, or that we simply cannot say what The God should do because we do not understand)
I think you are looking for something in particualr, as I may have mentioned before... I don't know what it is... but I do hope you find it. )

Peace be with you.

Wakas

peace be upon you TMK, All,

I see this life as the proof/evidence. The God is not unjust, and thus has given us the chance to submit our proof/evidence. This concept is alluded to in some statements of al quran / the reading, e.g. our hands will testify against us, the weighing of the scales on The Day etc. It is no coincidence that scales are the symbol of Justice/Law in many countries.

No Judge, no defendent, no court of law, no system, would allow a verdict to be reached without submission of evidence/proof, hence this life.

This is what we agreed to, as pointed out by the signs posted by brother Zein.

Wakas

Further reading
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/thetrust.htm