Does Islam accept LGBTQ community as Legitimate?
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Salaam all.
Does Islam accept LGBTQ community as Legitimate? If "No" why? and if "Yes" then what is their marriage and inheritance rights? Any answer from the Quran?
Thanx. N wasalaam.Salam,
There is not inconsistency in God’s creation (673)
Scientific investigation suggests that homosexuality is not a deliberated option, neither a disease. Actually, it is perfectly normal in God's creation for several purposes and reasons (example https//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090616122106.htm )
Therefore homosexuality can not be unnatural. It is a fact in nature, and the question whether is it natural or not is just the wrong question.
“In modern times, with science in high regard, some people use a variety of biological and evolutionary concepts to "prove" the unnaturalness (and, by implication, the invalidity) of homosexuality. The ultimate source of these arguments is social tradition and "religious precepts" (Weinrich,1982) rather than observable data. In truth, homosexuality occurs naturally and can be explained through evolutionary principles” (Homosexuality A paradox of evolution, Preston Hunter, 1994).
The popular opinion that homosexuality is a “mistake” in nature can be easily proved wrong by evolution theory itself
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People say that homosexuality goes against evolution. If it were like this, there were not homosexual individuals anymore and of course, we would not see it in nature. They would have been left behind through evolution. Thus it is not against “natural order” as it is in fact part if the “natural order”. For the same reason, heterosexual people not being able to have children should be condemned for that and never get married or have sexual relations.
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Homosexuality prevents reproduction. It doesn't. Homosexual individuals can perfectly procreate and their homosexual condition does not impede others to procreate. Some diseases like chlamydia, as an example, are more dangerous than homosexual individuals in human society in that sense.
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It is not a disease neither contagious.
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there are some physical and biological differences between homosexual and heterosexual individuals such as hypothalamus and endorphins. Thus homosexuality is not a choice. In fact, some studies with twins demonstrate that two twins grown up in different environments and families are likely to share sexual orientation than genetically unrelated siblings raised together.
Therefore, the status of homosexuality in nature is proven as simple as a fact. Nature does not ask herself whether homosexuality is “allowed” or not, it just happens. it’s natural.
People against homosexuality try to appoint verses regarding Lut’s people. There is no verse in Quran prohibiting explicitly homosexuality. Not even one.
7.80 And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?
Therefore this verse can not talk about homosexuality, because Lut’s people did not invent homosexuality, neither they make it for the first time in history. It is not exclusive to humankind.
homosexuality is not explicitly forbidden in Quran and condemning or oppressing people just for being who they are while God has not explicitly forbidden something is unjust, un muslim. Furthermore, we would be accepting inconsistencies in the Creation. we can’t, as muslims, tell people they can't believe in God or that they are not muslims while they believe just because we accept or not their nature. God will say, not us. Muslims and oppressors are antonyms. God doesn't accept oppression or injustice.
God knows best.
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peace Bikrun,
You provided no links to any studies.
The current general consensus among scientists (based on the evidence) is that sexuality is determined by both nature and nurture. (e.g. largest study thus far on the genetic basis of sexuality].
The largest study1 to date on the genetic basis of sexuality has revealed five spots on the human genome that are linked to same-sex sexual behaviour — but none of the markers are reliable enough to predict someone’s sexuality.
The findings, which are published on 29 August in Science and based on the genomes of nearly 500,000 people, shore up the results of earlier, smaller studies and confirm the suspicions of many scientists while sexual preferences have a genetic component, no single gene has a large effect on sexual behaviours.
“There is no ‘gay gene’,” says lead study author Andrea Ganna, a geneticist at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Ganna and his colleagues also used the analysis to estimate that up to 25% of sexual behaviour can be explained by genetics, with the rest influenced by environmental and cultural factors — a figure similar to the findings of smaller studies.
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peace Bikrun,
You provided no links to any studies.
Peace, Wakas,
I apologize, you are right.
I should have added it for more evidence.https//psycnet.apa.org/record/1991-98036-002
Straight science? Homosexuality, evolution and adaptation, J McKnight - 2003
https//books.google.es/books?hl=es&lr=&id=KXM3F59y1jkC&oi=fnd&pg=PP16&dq=homosexuality+in+animals&ots=WI_IXoesUS&sig=kPPI6xyU_Nm5reTc9AF-E-8gSo0#v=onepage&q=homosexuality%20in%20animals&f=false
https//psycnet.apa.org/record/1991-98036-002 Straight science? Homosexuality, evolution and adaptation, J McKnight - 2003 https//books.google.es/books?hl=es&lr=&id=KXM3F59y1jkC&oi=fnd&pg=PP16&dq=homosexuality+in+animals&ots=WI_IXoesUS&sig=kPPI6xyU_Nm5reTc9AF-E-8gSo0#v=onepage&q=homosexuality%20in%20animals&f=false
Bailey JM, Dunne MP, Martin NG (March 2000). "Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample". J Pers Soc Psychol. 78 (3) 524–36. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.519.4486. doi10.1037/0022-3514.78.3.524. PMID 10743878.
Whitam FL; et al. (1993). "Homosexual orientation in twins a report on 61 pairs and three triplet sets". Arch. Sex. Behav. 22 (3) 187–206. doi10.1007/bf01541765. PMID 8494487.
I could add more.
peace Bikrun,
The current general consensus among scientists (based on the evidence) is that sexuality is determined by both nature and nurture. (e.g. largest study thus far on the genetic basis of sexuality].
In that case, there should be no homosexual individuals in any country where it is not allowed and penalized with death or any other penalty. You can't cure people of avoid them to be homosexual. History is full of examples.
the article you provide does not make a conclusion. On the opposite, it says more data are required and "it's a complicated matter". It just has a very catchy title. It talks about one study, this one https//science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6456/eaat7693.editor-summary which suggests that homosexuality might not be genetic but polygenic. It is not that simple.There is not any general consensus on how it is determined, they just cant conclude because there is not enough data and it is quite complicated.
God knows best
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Peace Sister Bikrum....
Seems like you strongly accept homosexuality.... Simply coz you claim God has not prohibited or made Haram... But you failed to get Quran in its way... Sorry to say...
First of all, you have no debate here. You brought your opinions and some science and your enthusiasm to support your view. It's already ongoing debate so you could have pointed out what is debated is wrong according to Quran. Rather than bringing your opinions... Coz author of this topic not asking our own opinion but Quranic explanation. ...so better go in line with it.. Since I also part of this debate, can you nagate my Quranic evidences and confirm your view in support of claiming it is allowed... That's better way of argument......".it just happens, it's natural "
That's your strongest comment...
I agree with your statement... But not only for homosexuality but for all what human mind tempt to do... All natural.. Aren't they...
For example human tempt to steal... So let him.. Human has temptation on everything... But we can't do everything which entice our heart... God has given knowledge... Using it we have to develop SELF- CONTROL ....instead of controlling our self we can't keep doing them... Like in court one would say he made me angry so I cut his toung... So natural anger... Right... So the one who cut the toung is innocent... Simply nonsensical your line of thought ....Let me put this way dear Sister... Let's hope you reason it... . . Or any LGBT respond pls...
Having sex with another female being a female is harmless and absolutely fine and no restrictions in Quran as per you.. It's so natural it happens. .that's what you say....
then suppose I have an office mate who is attracted to me... It's so natural.. Right... So I can go to the extreme with her.. But I won't marry her... It's natural it happens... Yes or No.... It happens in every society....
Now tell me.... If your lesbian sex is allowed and why not sex with a woman we like is not allowed even after she offers....question is.....
Bring me a verse ONLY prohibited my choice while allowing your choice....
Remember both natural....don't tell me both allowed....Further just look at verse 422-24,,,,,
It gives a long list.... Just check whether God put same gender there...HE didn't... Did HE?. Just coz God didn't use a single same gender, does it mean God allowed it?... For example God says not allowed your sisters for marrige, but God didn't say brothers... Does it mean brother allowed for another brother ? This is a good point for homosexuality....(coz 424 listed and beyond that list allowed...Wow.. Homosexuality allowed... Disgusting) If you are disbeliever then I don't mind but being a believer how come the manifest verses gone upside down for you.... God address Men and given the list so women should guess what is their list with everyone opposite to the list... If LGBT is anywhere near to be allowed, then in 422-24 God would have stated not allowed for you in marriage sisters + brothers...etc etc etc... OMG I am fed up on this topic...
What's wrong with you people... Where is your logic? -
Peace Sister Bikrum....
Seems like you strongly accept homosexuality.... Simply coz you claim God has not prohibited or made Haram... But you failed to get Quran in its way... Sorry to say...
First of all, you have no debate here. You brought your opinions and some science and your enthusiasm to support your view. It's already ongoing debate so you could have pointed out what is debated is wrong according to Quran. Rather than bringing your opinions... Coz author of this topic not asking our own opinion but Quranic explanation. ...so better go in line with it.. Since I also part of this debate, can you nagate my Quranic evidences and confirm your view in support of claiming it is allowed... That's better way of argument......".it just happens, it's natural "
That's your strongest comment...
I agree with your statement... But not only for homosexuality but for all what human mind tempt to do... All natural.. Aren't they...
For example, human tempt to steal... So let him.. Human has temptation on everything... But we can't do everything which entice our heart... God has given knowledge... Using it we have to develop SELF- CONTROL ....instead of controlling our self we can't keep doing them... Like in court one would say he made me angry so I cut his toung... So natural anger... Right... So the one who cut the toung is innocent... Simply nonsensical your line of thought ....Let me put this way dear Sister... Let's hope you reason it... . . Or any LGBT respond pls...
Having sex with another female being a female is harmless and absolutely fine and no restrictions in Quran as per you.. It's so natural it happens. .that's what you say....
then suppose I have an office mate who is attracted to me... It's so natural.. Right... So I can go to the extreme with her.. But I won't marry her... It's natural it happens... Yes or No.... It happens in every society....
Now tell me.... If your lesbian sex is allowed and why not sex with a woman we like is not allowed even after she offers....question is.....
Bring me a verse ONLY prohibited my choice while allowing your choice....
Remember both natural....don't tell me both allowed....Further just look at verse 422-24,,,,,
It gives a long list.... Just check whether God put same gender there...HE didn't... Did HE?. Just coz God didn't use a single same gender, does it mean God allowed it?... For example God says not allowed your sisters for marrige, but God didn't say brothers... Does it mean brother allowed for another brother ? This is a good point for homosexuality....(coz 424 listed and beyond that list allowed...Wow.. Homosexuality allowed... Disgusting) If you are disbeliever then I don't mind but being a believer how come the manifest verses gone upside down for you.... God address Men and given the list so women should guess what is their list with everyone opposite to the list... If LGBT is anywhere near to be allowed, then in 422-24 God would have stated not allowed for you in marriage sisters + brothers...etc etc etc... OMG I am fed up on this topic...
What's wrong with you people... Where is your logic?Salam
I won’t get into the point that you get my arguments as an insult or something and keep on writing such a “your homosexuality” like you feel personally attacked. I really dont understand your reaction, brother, I am sorry.
I was just telling homosexuality is not a choice and I don't know why you bring the argument of adultery to compare it with homosexuality, they have nothing to do one with the other. Adultery is a choice, being homosexual, as it seems from scientific literature, is not.
Also I did not say I accept or not homosexuality, I did not bring my opinion on it. I said that homosexuality is a fact so it is pointless if we accept it or not. It is not punished in Quran, therefore I am not the one who will accuse anyone just because they are born differently.
All the things you say I said just dont apply. I said it is not explicit in Quran, thus the Lord left it to human law, not explicitly forbidding it by divine law.
What people do under their blankets and how or with whom they fullfil their hearts is not my matter. It is something between God and them and since it is not harmful neither forbidden, I believe (here it comes my opinion) we should not oppress anyone.
I don't know why you think 422-4 goes against homosexual people and I don't know why when the homosexuality subject is brought everybody runs to bring together lust and adultery and gay parades with glitter and queer behaviors, because they are not related as, for example, God's deen and Daesh are not.
422-24 is giving a list of what is not allowed, so what? I did not even mention it and I dont know what it brings to this topic... Can you please explain further?
Please read 2221 with no brackets and no prejudice and no translation.
God knows best
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Peace Sister....
I have no personal attacks...God is witness.. You can ask from God when you have opportunity... I only argue with what people wrote.... Don't try to streamline what you said in your first thread by saying personal attacks bla bla so you would look innocent in others eyes. ...
First of all happy that you are not one who is involved in homosexuality as you confirmed but you only talking in support of them that's worse than you don't practice.. . Fine.. you used a new word now ""born differently" so make things neutralize...
Look sister if matters are not explicit in Quran then dig deep to get meaning.. For example did God forbid in 422-24 a brother to marry another brother... Just say explicitly Yes or No.. Was it explicit in Quran... How then we took that brother is not allowed to marry while quran isn't explicit in words to show... By exploring the verse further and positive way... If taken in its literal way, then I don't see any reason why a brother cannot marry another brother (that in the end in society LGBT) ...
Did you read meticulously whole thing under this topic.. Or you just rushed...
Sister.... Sex is sex, be it adultery or lesbian or gay... In the end they get what they want as pleasure by doing that.. Be the partner same gender or different OR animals or child Abuse they get the results...
God is just...
In the whole world those who do homosex are not merely differently born... They are perfect like you and me... The one who does homosex also marry and live normal life...even Lut community ...it was not a community without family life and womenless... But their lust overtook....
There are people who look different to normal people... Man look like woman or woman looks as man. .so you must be talking about them as well with sympathy.. People are there in this world who are born different in many aspects needless to elaborte... We can't apply different law for them... But they are people with less fortunate...
If one man is born n grown to look as woman then he is unfortunate like one who is born blind dumb or legless or handless or born joined.etc.. For me they are unfortunate.. That we see in animals as well and in Flora ... Just coz they are unfortunate doesn't mean they can change the ethics of a society..God's scriptures are for able people.. For example (I gave you two eyes don't you see. -- this cannot be applied to blind) . Since they look as woman so they opted their own way.. And most of them their whole life is sex and prostitution.... They don't live a life other than that.... Some such they keep away from marriages and live single coz they are weak like a blind.... No-one can marry them and have a meaningful life. Is blind and the one with vision same... Unfortunate ones are unfortunate that we cannot change or we can't support what they do is right.
When I visited last year India I saw lots such people roaming in the streets.. Men wearing women dress and rarely saw women like men.. We had opportunity talk with them... They were ousted from families coz of their unfortunate birth... So they turned themselves to women and involve in prostitution for survival though they could opted other means but with harfship.... This could be the case worldwide mostly except western world... If you think they should also live sex life and this is not the way... This will demoralize a society... They invented a way coz of their weaknesses...
Sister... Child Abuse or sex with children is also so natural... Most of those who practice they like children naturally .. So support them as well.. Human heart is full of evil, when opportunity presents he steps into it...
Simply God has not allowed any immoral act and ways...
How unfair then God says wait till God enrich you to marry and keep away illegal sex, but these LGBT is freely enjoying and still they are not culpable. .Sister why you brought only verse 780 and trying to substantiate your claim hiding the next verse
781 "Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."****this what you said after presenting 780
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Therefore this verse can not talk about homosexuality, because Lut’s people did not invent homosexuality, neither they make it for the first time in history. It is not exclusive to humankind‹‹‹We don't oppress any LGBT or any human fir that matter as believer, but we say what is Quran says... If it is immoral then immoral... Let them do as all other dirty things happening in this world but don't encourage immoral acts..... Unless you convince with Quran and bring your confirmation with strong debate....
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Salam,
Look sister if matters are not explicit in Quran then dig deep to get meaning.. For example did God forbid in 422-24 a brother to marry another brother... Just say explicitly Yes or No.. Was it explicit in Quran... How then we took that brother is not allowed to marry while quran isn't explicit in words to show... By exploring the verse further and positive way... If taken in its literal way, then I don't see any reason why a brother cannot marry another brother (that in the end in society LGBT) ... Did you read meticulously whole thing under this topic.. Or you just rushed...
The point is that you compare things that have nothing to do one with the another. A brother marrying his brother is wrong even if Quran explicity says so or not. It is an option, a wrong option.
What I am talking all the time is that some things are writen in Quran, others not. When they are not explicit, it comes to us to see if it is wrong or not. In my case, i researched and found out that homosexuality is not wrong for the reasons I already wrote and I am not going to write again so we get tired.
Lets imagine there is a land of only black haired people when a blonde individual is born. That land has a divine book stating that black-haired people should marry black-haired people. It also says people should not oppress one another.
The blonde guy has 2 options paint his hair and pretend all his life he is a black haired individual taking with him a wife and a family based on lies and fooling, always hidding, pretending, or "exile himself" from that land.He is not a bad person and he does not want to fool a poor wife and the rest of people, so he choses option 2. In his lonely life once he meets another blonde person. He thinks he has the chance to be happy and feel fine in this life finally. But then black-haired people tell him that it is a sin that two blonde people are together.
Are black-haired people oppressing blonde people?
What is wrong with 2 blonde people trying to be happy?
Is blond people's option to be blonde and can they change it?
Did God made a mistake?In the whole world those who do homosex are not merely differently born... They are perfect like you and me... The one who does homosex also marry and live normal life...even Lut community ...it was not a community without family life and womenless... But their lust overtook....
There are people who look different to normal people... Man look like woman or woman looks as man. .so you must be talking about them as well with sympathy.. People are there in this world who are born different in many aspects needless to elaborte... We can't apply different law for them... But they are people with less fortunate...Science says they are differently born. In any case, we should never oppress them while we dont know.
Me, personally, will not even get the smallest risk to be oppressing others.On the other side, I don't think Lut's people have to do with homosexuality. Lut's people have to do with fornication and other unethical matters not related to sex. I don't know why zina has to be always about sex like other things in this world were not a bigger sin. I don't understand this fixation with sex being the greatest sin when there are wars and hunger and oppression in this world.
If you ask cheated people, most of them will tell you that what hurt them the most was not the fact of sex between theis partners and a third person. What hurt the most was the treachery. So zina is not necessarily related to a sexual act, it means much more as not being clear, as being selfish, as not taking into account many other things and disdain.
If one man is born n grown to look as woman then he is unfortunate like one who is born blind dumb or legless or handless or born joined.etc.. For me they are unfortunate.. That we see in animals as well and in Flora ... Just coz they are unfortunate doesn't mean they can change the ethics of a society..God's scriptures are for able people.. For example (I gave you two eyes don't you see. -- this cannot be applied to blind) . Since they look as woman so they opted their own way.. And most of them their whole life is sex and prostitution.... They don't live a life other than that.... Some such they keep away from marriages and live single coz they are weak like a blind.... No-one can marry them and have a meaningful life. Is blind and the one with vision same... Unfortunate ones are unfortunate that we cannot change or we can't support what they do is right.
When I visited last year India I saw lots such people roaming in the streets.. Men wearing women dress and rarely saw women like men.. We had opportunity talk with them... They were ousted from families coz of their unfortunate birth... So they turned themselves to women and involve in prostitution for survival though they could opted other means but with harfship.... This could be the case worldwide mostly except western world... If you think they should also live sex life and this is not the way... This will demoralize a society... They invented a way coz of their weaknesses...
Sister... Child Abuse or sex with children is also so natural... Most of those who practice they like children naturally .. So support them as well.. Human heart is full of evil, when opportunity presents he steps into it...
Simply God has not allowed any immoral act and ways...
How unfair then God says wait till God enrich you to marry and keep away illegal sex, but these LGBT is freely enjoying and still they are not culpable. .That's the problem, you are using a very poor stereotype of homosexual people. I am not. I am talking about believers being homosexual.
Sister why you brought only verse 780 and trying to substantiate your claim hiding the next verse
781 "Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."****this what you said after presenting 780
I have been looking at that verse many years, and I have come to one conclusion which is we can't conclude it is homosexuality.
Look at the verse
"You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."Look at that "with desire" shahwatan. This word is only used again in Quran in 2755 for the almost same sentence again about Lut's people.
But the root is used in many other cases, never indicating lust or sexual desire1657 And they assign daughters to God; be He glorified; and to them is what they desire.
21102 They shall not hear the slightest sound from it, and they will be in what their souls desires abiding therein.
3454 And a separation was made between them and what they had desired, as was done to their counterparts before. They have been in grave doubt.
4131 "We are your allies in this worldly life and in the Hereafter. In it you will have anything your soul desires, and in it you will have anything you ask for."
4371 They will be served with golden trays and cups, and they will find everything the self desires and the eyes wish for, and you will abide therein.
5222 We will supply them with fruit and meat such as they desire.
5621 And meat of birds that they desire.
7742 And fruit from what they desire.Other times indeed it seems to have this sema about sexual desire
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.
427 And God wants to pardon you, but those who follow desires want that you would be diverted into a great diversion.
1959 Then, generations came after them who lost the Connection, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.In any case, it would be a contradiction used in 781, there must be something very wrong with the way we understand this verse and the root because then it would be lawful to approach women with sexual desire. Also we would be admitting that in Paradise we will have lust and sexual pleasures.
In any case, It is pointless and an unnecessary effort to try to change other's opinions when they are not willing to change it and they feel comfortable with their own, as it is your case and my case.
Indeed, I feel comfortable with my opinion and i have no intention to deconstruct it, neither to change yours. So let's not move into unnecessary exercises of imposition or insistence. Let's thank God we have a place like this to discuss and stop discussing whenever we want.
Only God knows best
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Peace Dear Sister Bikrum... ..
And let the peace and guidance always prevail within you... And May your Creator correct you in case you are on wrong path... That's my wish...
Since you withdraw... I won't compel... Saying you will remain in your opinion... But our opinion cannot be presented as truth and encouragement to society while not having astute or rather concrete evidences within Quran .. If you read again your first thread you will get it...
No grudges... All these dialogues will lead us to right path if we seek guidance from God..
I end with one thing... About desire and your confusion for years.. Desire is desire.. When you see an ornament then if you like the desire is confined to it... When we see a woman and the desire is different... Though the same word is used... When we see a food then the desire is different... End result of desire is achieving what we desired....
If you are confused my dear Sister with verse 780-81 with the word DESIRE then refer 26165-166 does it give you the picture clearly where DESIRE not worded.. intentionally God omitted... Pls at least workout with desire...
After all no grudges.. Okay dude... We are believers... Remain in your opinion.. If God will He will open a way for you with what is right... I will study further.. In case I am wrong according to Quran then I will get back to you.. But so far I don't see...
God is with you if you're on right track... handshake -
Salaam, Bikrun,
I am afraid it is very difficult to get enything clean out this kind of debates. There seems to be only two options, either you think this way or that way and anything that goes outside those narrow projections gets you branded whatever the narrow projections upholders consider to be the wrong principle. In fact, I think, both narrow projections stem from going to the symptions rather than to the root of the question.
And the question is what do we do with sex.
For instance, it is nice we call marriage whatever suits us. For most "muslims" it is a paper or a compromise legally refrende, but as far as I understand the Qur'an marriage is a fllesh deed, a flesh act, like in 4.21, a ithaq ghatlith, a most solemn compact. That compat a man a and a woman contract in all intimacy without any paper, and which gives or may give rise to a new life. But other than artifical insemination of any kind that is the only mithaq that can give rise to a new life.
I laugh at those who uphold that "homosexuality" (I do not believe in that concept, nor heterosexuality concept) is against nature, on the other hand consider that it is not that flesh mithaq ghalith what consitutes marriage. Well if that does not consitute marriage, if it is a paper you are saying that marriage amonst "homosexuals" is not wring, since the mithaq ghalith is a paper.
It is like saying that if you give a loan to somebody on trust and you do not have witnesses nor sign a ny paper that there has been no loan. The loaner might not able to get it back if he cannot bring a proof of it, but certainly the loan is a fact.
What happens is humanity, at least a large part of if or largely all of it, is messed up with sex. They have it all mystified and turned into steretypes and myths and dispise of Qur'an is manifest. Where Qur'an dos not stipulate a role for women, most owuld be mulims will swear to some or to many such roles and calle it islam.
We have to start at the beginning and start well, but nobody is interested in that. We all want our little worldly advantages and comfort zones. Sex has become a trap for humanity and not a source of light in spite of the fact that that is what, if I understand the Qur'an right, it is meant to be.
Salaam
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From a spiritual point of view, it doesn't matter if you're attracted to men or women. Because from a spiritual point of view, one should not be guided by their temptations.
But at the end of the day it really comes down to what you consider the purpose of life. Do you think pleasure is good and suffering is bad ? That wealth is good and poverty is bad ? That life is good and death is bad ? etc. It's a long journey of self-discovery.
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I end with one thing... About desire and your confusion for years.. Desire is desire..
Well, it is not that simple, brother. In Quran, the book that has been inspired to both of us it is from the Lord, there are many many words for “desire” 287 tahwā, 2223 arādā, 4123 amāniyyi, 4135 l-hawā, etc. And there is no doubt for me there is a reason why the same word is not used in every case, and there is a reason why shahwatan is used for Lut's people and no one of the others . Words bear a meaning.
Maybe we should research one day what each one brings to the semantic level so we can understand better.
And let the peace and guidance always prevail within you... And May your Creator correct you in case you are on wrong path... That's my wish...
Since you withdraw... I won't compel... Saying you will remain in your opinion... But our opinion cannot be presented as truth and encouragement to society while not having astute or rather concrete evidences within Quran .. If you read again your first thread you will get it...It was never my intention since I was from the beginning saying it is not clear. In any case, thank you for your words. I wish the same for you and all of us. May the Lord make us see the right way one day. group
In the meanwhile, I will agree with sister Huruf, we should start from the beginning.
Praises be to the Lord
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I find this discussion sensible .
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBWD3cr1pC8235 They guard their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blameWho are mates/spouses
1672 God has made for you mates from amongst yourselves, and He has made from your mates children and grandchildren, and He has provided you from the good provisions. Do they acknowledge falsehood, while in God's favor they are denying?
3021 From His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and compassion. In that are signs for a people who reflect.
4211 Creator of the heavens and the earth. He created for you from among yourselves mates, and also mates for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing like unto Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.26166 "You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"
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I find this discussion sensible .
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBWD3cr1pC8235 They guard their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blameWho are mates/spouses
1672 God has made for you mates from amongst yourselves, and He has made from your mates children and grandchildren, and He has provided you from the good provisions. Do they acknowledge falsehood, while in God's favor they are denying?
3021 From His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and compassion. In that are signs for a people who reflect.
4211 Creator of the heavens and the earth. He created for you from among yourselves mates, and also mates for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing like unto Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.26166 "You leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"
Peace....
I emphasized the verse 26165-166 for Bikrun but she skipped in her final answer wittingky or unwittingly.... Her whole concern was 'Desire' but this verse is clear and no desire at all...BTW some good verses you brought above .. Only right minded will grasp... Sadly always ambiguity remains among believers.... .
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Peace....
I emphasized the verse 26165-166 for Bikrun but she skipped in her final answer wittingky or unwittingly.... Her whole concern was 'Desire' but this verse is clear and no desire at all...BTW some good verses you brought above .. Only right minded will grasp... Sadly always ambiguity remains among believers.... .
Salam,
26165
Why atatuna means here approach? It never means something like this in the whole quran and suddenly here it means "approach sexualy?" Who says so?
Asuming it is about homosexuality, why it talks only about males approaching sexually males? Maybe because there is a preconceived idea.
Then next verse says "and u leave your mates". Still this verse could be talking about many many things and not necessary homosexuality. Maybe we should check on why this irrepressible need to relate everything to adultery or homosexuality and leave behind what is indeed a huge sin, and explicit.
In any case, I missed to talk about it on purpose because as i told u, i dont see any explicit prohibition and it is my choice to think so and it is yours to think the opposite.
God knows best
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Taatuna el dhkraan min al 'alaamin. In other ayas regarding Lut it does not talk about dukraan but about rijaal. We should then take it that they are not synonims. "min al 'aalamin, may mean any male of any species, meaning not stopping at distinguishing a male from any other male nor putting a limit as to number. On the other hand if they were only human why not use rijaal, since previously it has been used as opposed to nisaa'.
Also the azwaj here, the partners or mates or peers, indeed it may mean any of those. In the Qur'an zawj, plural azwaj is also used for individuals of the sae standing, or condition not necessarily for spose or sexual mate. See
6.143, 11.40, 13.3, 15.88, 20.53, 22.5, 26.7, 31.10, 35.11, 36.36, 37.22, 38.58, 56.7, etc.etc.etc.The pro blem with the Lut passages is that muslims have imposed on Qur'an the short Biblical text that says without much going into it that they practised sodomie, and have not bothered to read attentively with real interest and without any prejudice what the Qur'an says in the different passages where it talks about those events.
I agree with Bikrun that the lens through which those differnet passages are read is already putting into them previous meanings.
And that is not the onlyc ase where the Qur'an is trampled on for th sake of upholding biblical tontent.
Salaam
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Also the azwaj here, the partners or mates or peers, indeed it may mean any of those. In the Qur'an zawj, plural azwaj is also used for individuals of the sae standing, or condition not necessarily for spose or sexual mate. See
6.143, 11.40, 13.3, 15.88, 20.53, 22.5, 26.7, 31.10, 35.11, 36.36, 37.22, 38.58, 56.7, etc.etc.etc.Salaam
Peace
Yes mate can mean non sexual. It can mean pairs or to pair
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=zwj#(61432)
But question is what God has created for us us of mates that we are allowed to have sexual relations as per 236?
3021 From His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and compassion. In that are signs for a people who reflect.
Now as per 3021 You may say male-male or female-female pairs can reside together and can have affection and compassion between them without reproducing. Homosexuality is not only physical desire but also feeling of love and compassion for the same sex partner.
Even with male-female partnership not always there are children.
4249 To God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He creates whatever He wills. He bestows daughters to whoever He wills, and bestows sons to whoever He wills.
4250 Or, He may bestow them with both sons and daughters, and He makes whom He wills barren. He is Knowledgeable, Capable.And to have children sexual intercourse is not even required if someone prefers technology. However opposite sex is required.
But "What God created for you mates from yourselves?" The answer to this question is in other verses
41 O people, be aware of your Lord who has created you from one person and He created from it its mate and sent forth from it many men and many women; and be aware of God whom you ask about, and the relatives. God is Watcher over you.
7189 He is the One who has created you from one person, and He made from it its mate to reside with. When he dwelled with her, she became pregnant with a light load, and she continued with it; then when it became heavy, they called on God, their Lord "If You give us an upright child, then we will be among the thankful."
396 He created you from one person, then He made from it its mate. He sent down to you eight pairs of the livestock. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, a creation after a creation in triple darkness. Such is God your Lord. To Him belongs the sovereignty. There is no god besides Him. How is it then you deviate?
God created one person and from it its mate so that reproduction can happen along with residing with. So God has created from ourselves opposite sex in the initial creation.
Now you may say that that was initial creation. But whenever God says what he created from yourselves of mates he is referring back to the initial creation of one female from one male. This is my understanding from these versed of Quran. God knows the best.
Peace
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But "What God created for you mates from yourselves?" The answer to this question is in other verses
What is that you are quoting there and to which you seem to mean you are answering?
I really cannot see what you are getting at which might be an aswer to my post.
Salaam
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Peace brothers and sisters....
Now the topic from LGBT to Lut community... Bikrun are you still debating? Coz now you brought a new concern leaving desire... APPROACH . that also confused? Why you add sexually when the word is only referring approaching /nearing...one example 2830..Insert any meaning of this word which suits to other appearances... No way you can change the word doesn't give the meaning of approaching or nearing while it get many other meaning... Sexually is not meant... The question is why they approached men leaving women for which Lut was furious...
Bikrun i am not addressing you but commonly from here onwards.... Since you officially withdrew from debate saying remaining in your opinion regardless what is debated... but I am here even to shift from my opinion if I find guidance here with clarity.. ...Dear believers... If Lut men not preferred men instead of women... For what they preferred in men? For which Lut could not control himself even to the extent of giving his daughters ...
Carefully read verses 1561-72.....
*Who actually came to Lut, was it women? No... Quran clear Men Messengers ..
*Why Lut worried seeing them since they were men that also different to his community and decent not the way of his own men?
*Why men came running hearing Lut's guests with full of rejoice....?what is in men for another men to rejoice. For that rejoice Lut against.. Why Lut against to some people's rejoice..
Why when the men rushed to Lut, then Lut begged not to shame and disgrace him... used two words (tafdhahuni..tukhzuni) It's not attack and harm them but disgrace and shame... What is it?
Why Lut said these my daughters if you are doers... (it's a big topic) but somehow Lut told this to those men just to save his guests.. ...
Read now 1178-79
Then why those men disliked the daughters of Lut... Saying "you know what we want"...what they want if not women... when Lut gave daughters saying as they are pure. .they refused said not their 'Haq'--right... So they have made their own rights... Like the LGBT claim now...
*Why Lut should ask "Isn't there any man among you? of course that suits for them... But they were men strong doing all robberies...not weak men... But Lut meant rightly...
Without Lut story I brought glaring evidences.. But debate is gone to the extreme so brought Lut story as well.
Those who claim lut men did something else not homosexuality .. Then, What is that something else while refusing Luts daughters..? -
God created one person and from it its mate so that reproduction can happen along with residing with. So God has created from ourselves opposite sex in the initial creation.
Now you may say that that was initial creation. But whenever God says what he created from yourselves of mates he is referring back to the initial creation of one female from one male. This is my understanding from these versed of Quran. God knows the best.
Peace
Salam, seekingtruth111
Thanks for you clear and wide exposition. I agree with most of it. Following your reasoningRed agreed. Obviously, we were created as a species sexual and viviparous.
Green there is a problem, at least for me, maybe for others, it is crystal clear. This verse (7189) does not say "child" anywhere, and does not say "male" and "female" anywhere, brother.
Salam jkhan,
If you are not addressing me, then stop addressing me. It leads to wrong interpretations.
If you did not take it personally then why
“Bikrun but she skipped in her final answer wittingky or unwittingly.... Her whole concern was 'Desire' but this verse is clear and no desire at all... “ (you brought the desire to the discussion as a proof that Lut’s people were homosexual)
“First of all, you have no debate here. “
“Now tell me.... If your lesbian sex is allowed and why not sex with a woman we like is not allowed even after she offers....question is.....”
“What's wrong with you people... Where is your logic?”
“I end with one thing... About desire and your confusion for years.. Desire is desire.. “
“Since you officially withdrew from debate saying remaining in your opinion regardless of what is debated”
And it is you who brought 26165 to the discussion yourself to prove it is sexual desire between men. I just told you I don't think so. So, legitimately, you gave me the impression you have something personal with my reasoning or homosexuality in general, thus I told you it is pointless to discuss.
You said in all your posts and explicitly addressing me that it is homosexuality and then saying “what is wrong with you”, therefore you don’t want to change your opinion and a conversation like this is pointless. Then the one who brings “approach” to prove homosexuality is you, and now you say you don’t by saying it is me the one saying it.
So you see how pointless all this is? Better go to a constructive discussion otherwise let’s withdrew from it so other brothers with better knowledge can bring some light. Can we move on?
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Peace Sister Bikrun....
Please don’t spoil the debate…. People have freedom to choose…let’s make a platform for that with thorough debate with reasons and mainly within quran… That’s why I like Brother Waqas or Mazhar or GL or some yester year members completely…. They never get upset…. That’s how they have survived all these years with many people in debate and still has courage to pursue… patience key…
Better you follow what you stated below in a very early stage of your debate..… so I withdrew.. but you still bringing your opinion and claiming confusion…
“”””In any case, It is pointless and an unnecessary effort to try to change other's opinions when they are not willing to change it and they feel comfortable with their own, as it is your case and my case.
Indeed, I feel comfortable with my opinion and i have no intention to deconstruct it, neither to change yours. So let's not move into unnecessary exercises of imposition or insistence. Let's thank God we have a place like this to discuss and stop discussing whenever we want.”””
Your above statement is not always correct… don’t compare yourself with others… people change listening and reading when they get clarity..from what they were before without knowledge… they may change and they may not… that we don’t know…
In the name of God… I have no personal grudges with you…. Not with anyone in this forum personally… I beg for believers the guidance every morning… God knows it… I will prove it if I meet you on the day of resurrection…
As I explained many times in this forum’s threads on various topics, I don’t want to change anyone with my opinion and I can’t do that and I don’t have the interest or capacity to do that..…. But I will always in sha Allah give my understanding of Quran as others also giving their own understanding….. i will debate till I feel weak in the debate so I know my stance wrong… when I give my understanding of quran in my style if you feel I am trying to change opinion of others, then I can’t help…. It’s your whim..
Pls don’t develop from now onwards any bad feelings of me or anyone… let’s work together with our understanding of quran….. let the people who not participate in debate but reading get benefit by choosing what they feel right… Pls keep positive .. we debate here not to pass time or overcome others for self pride..but for our own guidance with sheer clarity and for our salvation… Debate is always not pleasant coz others talk against our / your view… so be patient and bring the right thing and expose….and don't expect anyone to applaud you…ensure you / we learned something from debating a topic..
Now look.. what is the use of your last thread for members or my this thread… just wasting their time in reading this which are completely personal conversation…. Let’s stick with topic on what we debate … that’s helpful… handshake
