Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
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Does God plan our good part of lives or it happens according to our freewill and choice or circumstances?
Every believer believes that God knows the future... There is no second thought in it I presume..
But it is complicated in a way...
Let's take the complete story of Yousuf, his brothers and their father...
Yousuf has already seen the dream.. So it is to happen... And it did happen and Yakub knew dream is something significant so wanted to hide from his other sons..
Yousuf's brothers were rude in ignorance.. They did what they found good for themselves .. They planned.. They lied. They in the end threw Yousuf into a well... Unless they put him in the well Yousuf wouldn't have been sold for a petty price.. So we can see it has a kind of pattern.. By any means we can't accept what his brothers did. But.. Yousuf has already seen the dream.. So somehow Yousuf has to reach Misr in order for him to become better than his brothers in strength and power and most importantly to accomplish his dream...his dream won't be accomplished by living by the side of his father.. Is Yousuf becoming powerful in Misr a plan of God? For me it seems pretty obvious God planned.. Coz dream is verdict to it.. But.. Is it God's plan to put Yousuf in well so that Yousuf would reach to the destination? Yes or No? Would God plan such a thing to innocent boy? No.. If God planned then brothers are not culprits literally.. But in God's plan so many unfortunate people converge together to make it true.. Coz it is their lives.. They do what they want...
So.. Is it God only planned Yousuf to reach in heights in Misr... Whoever involve in doing so is not relevant.. Coz.. Yousuf brothers did a massive crime by doing so..God will not involve in crime or evil to get his Plan executed .. They separated Yousuf from his father... But did God plan to separate Yousuf literally.. Or it did happen this way but God could or would have done it any way even if the brothers didn't threw Yousuf in well.. Absolutely possible..What do you think? Are Yousuf brothers innocent in this story since Yousuf's vision should come true ultimately so they were part and parcel of it?.
Does it teach us that whatever happens in our life we need to be patient until God make a way out?
Coz.. Who is responsible for Yakub, Yousuf's father's tears and worries for years after years? Is it God or Yousuf brothers? Somehow, Yousuf's father spent bulk of his life thinking of his loving son so did Yousuf...
Or else that's part of Dream's fulfilment.. Or We need to tolerate certain things in life until God gives us happiness..?Could that dream ever be fulfilled without Yousuf's separation?
God does not create something, or set something in motion, and then become surprised by what it created or what happens. God knows everything before it happens. Everything that happens, is fully in line with what God completely wants to the last atoms's weight. Anything other than this and you have an imperfect existence. Anything other than this is an insult to God and Perfection. Every detail that happens in your life, even if it's as simple as a headache, or just bumping into a wall accidentally, it was all willed by God. It was decreed in a record, before it was brought about. And if you knew all the premises with regards to why it happened, you would see that it wasn't just good that it happened. You would see that it was Perfection. Despair would be impossible for you, because you'd know that everything that happened was wholly innocent of evil. It was Perfection. To witness this, is a privilege. It is a mercy, a blessing to witness this.
No misfortune can happen on earth, or in yourselves, except it is decreed in a record, before We bring it about. This is easy for God to do. In order that you do not despair over anything that has passed you by, nor be exultant of anything He has bestowed upon you. God does not like those who are boastful, proud. (5722-23)
Suppose a man harms a woman against her will. The man only succeeded in doing this, because God fully wanted the woman to be harmed against her will in that manner. For it to be anything other than this, is to suggest that God is to some extent useless, or that something happened that God did not want. This sort of belief would only harm the one who holds it. It is false. It describes God as being imperfect, which is absurd. It is at odds with any objective notion of Perfection (or that which no greater than can be conceived).
The woman who was harmed deserved to be harmed. It does not matter how it looks to us (like an an innocent woman was raped), the truth is, there is 0 evil/injustice in Existence, because it would take an evil almighty god to will such a thing to happen. Nothing happens independently of God's Will and God is wholly innocent of evil, therefore, Existence is wholly innocent of evil. There are of course evil people, people who recognise their intent to be evil, but persist with it anyway. The rapist did not wrong the woman, the rapist wronged himself, because God will probably punish him for his evil intent. Recall, that we have descended as enemies to one another (some of us to some of us) (so he will be harmed against his will and against his best interest...perhaps he will get raped in prison...perhaps he will have nightmare upon nightmare, melancholia, anxiety etc. Perhaps he will be given respite so that it become perfection for him to forever suffer Hell) if he does not effectively repent. Unless it is not perfection for him to be pardoned/forgiven.
If you knew all the premises in relation to the woman, you would recognise that her being harmed against her will, was perfection all things considered. Maybe it was the only way to get her to be more righteous and she would have wanted to become more righteous (just like Joseph wanted God to divert their scheming away from him). Maybe she was evil in ways that she shouldn't have been. Perhaps she did not respond to reason, or a genuine sense of good when she was supposed to (which would make her a zalem). She is on this planet, because she committed zulm, she treated God, the wholly innocent of evil, unfairly. To call That which has always been perfect to you evil, or less than perfect, is to be unfair to It. It warrants a loss of goodness.
Everything that happened to Joseph, was fully Willed by God. God chooses what everyone chooses. But everyone of course still chooses (because God wants this), everyone still exercises free-will. God makes the conditions for this. God does not change what is in a people until they change what is in themselves. God knows what we reveal and what we hide. God knows what we would do in every circumstance, and with what determinacy or certainty. Perhaps we'd only do x in circumstances like y 50% of the time. We must strive to become good, such that 100% of the time, we do good. How else can it be perfection for us to be in Heaven? Would you give Heaven to that which does not deserve it?
What happened to Joseph, will have been tied in relation to Adam seeking forgiveness and mercy from God after the original sin. All that happened to Joseph was, to my understanding, in line with Joseph being guided, purified, forgiven and shown mercy, by God. Those events were all key ingredients in producing a Joseph that is not of the losers. A Joseph that avoids the Retribution of Hell, for the Mercy of Heaven. A Joseph that is free-willingly, genuinely, morally good, worthy of Heaven.
It's perfection for everyone to get what they truly/perfectly deserve. Without God knowing what we reveal and what we hide, this would not happen. Joseph's brother committed evil, because their intent was evil. Objectively speaking, no evil occurred in Existence, because all that happened to Joseph, was Perfection. Obviously, even Joseph's brother recognised that God had indeed favoured Joseph over his brothers. Had they been as sinless as Joseph, they would have been equally favoured. Whoever's least evil in relation to God, is the most successful., because God rightfully/righteously favours him/her.
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This that only harms happens to us if we are guilty is perverse. The child who becomes an orphan is guilty? No, you do not need to be guilty to suffer in whatever way. We do see it in fact that it is not so. Some eveils are earned, some are not. God gives that destiny. Destiny is not punishment but opportunity. Is is our trial to prove ourselves.
Bad choice of examplo on the other hand, a woman that is raped because she deserves it. ¿Where does God purport such a thing? Really perverse.
Salaam
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God does not create something, or set something in motion, and then become surprised by what it created or what happens. God knows everything before it happens. Everything that happens, is fully in line with what God completely wants to the last atoms's weight. Anything other than this and you have an imperfect existence. Anything other than this is an insult to God and Perfection. Every detail that happens in your life, even if it's as simple as a headache, or just bumping into a wall accidentally, it was all willed by God. It was decreed in a record, before it was brought about. And if you knew all the premises with regards to why it happened, you would see that it wasn't just good that it happened. You would see that it was Perfection. Despair would be impossible for you, because you'd know that everything that happened was wholly innocent of evil. It was Perfection. To witness this, is a privilege. It is a mercy, a blessing to witness this.
No misfortune can happen on earth, or in yourselves, except it is decreed in a record, before We bring it about. This is easy for God to do. In order that you do not despair over anything that has passed you by, nor be exultant of anything He has bestowed upon you. God does not like those who are boastful, proud. (5722-23)
Suppose a man harms a woman against her will. The man only succeeded in doing this, because God fully wanted the woman to be harmed against her will in that manner. For it to be anything other than this, is to suggest that God is to some extent useless, or that something happened that God did not want. This sort of belief would only harm the one who holds it. It is false. It describes God as being imperfect, which is absurd. It is at odds with any objective notion of Perfection (or that which no greater than can be conceived).
The woman who was harmed deserved to be harmed. It does not matter how it looks to us (like an an innocent woman was raped), the truth is, there is 0 evil/injustice in Existence, because it would take an evil almighty god to will such a thing to happen. Nothing happens independently of God's Will and God is wholly innocent of evil, therefore, Existence is wholly innocent of evil. There are of course evil people, people who recognise their intent to be evil, but persist with it anyway. The rapist did not wrong the woman, the rapist wronged himself, because God will probably punish him for his evil intent. Recall, that we have descended as enemies to one another (some of us to some of us) (so he will be harmed against his will and against his best interest...perhaps he will get raped in prison...perhaps he will have nightmare upon nightmare, melancholia, anxiety etc. Perhaps he will be given respite so that it become perfection for him to forever suffer Hell) if he does not effectively repent. Unless it is not perfection for him to be pardoned/forgiven.
If you knew all the premises in relation to the woman, you would recognise that her being harmed against her will, was perfection all things considered. Maybe it was the only way to get her to be more righteous and she would have wanted to become more righteous (just like Joseph wanted God to divert their scheming away from him). Maybe she was evil in ways that she shouldn't have been. Perhaps she did not respond to reason, or a genuine sense of good when she was supposed to (which would make her a zalem). She is on this planet, because she committed zulm, she treated God, the wholly innocent of evil, unfairly. To call That which has always been perfect to you evil, or less than perfect, is to be unfair to It. It warrants a loss of goodness.
Everything that happened to Joseph, was fully Willed by God. God chooses what everyone chooses. But everyone of course still chooses (because God wants this), everyone still exercises free-will. God makes the conditions for this. God does not change what is in a people until they change what is in themselves. God knows what we reveal and what we hide. God knows what we would do in every circumstance, and with what determinacy or certainty. Perhaps we'd only do x in circumstances like y 50% of the time. We must strive to become good, such that 100% of the time, we do good. How else can it be perfection for us to be in Heaven? Would you give Heaven to that which does not deserve it?
What happened to Joseph, will have been tied in relation to Adam seeking forgiveness and mercy from God after the original sin. All that happened to Joseph was, to my understanding, in line with Joseph being guided, purified, forgiven and shown mercy, by God. Those events were all key ingredients in producing a Joseph that is not of the losers. A Joseph that avoids the Retribution of Hell, for the Mercy of Heaven. A Joseph that is free-willingly, genuinely, morally good, worthy of Heaven.
It's perfection for everyone to get what they truly/perfectly deserve. Without God knowing what we reveal and what we hide, this would not happen. Joseph's brother committed evil, because their intent was evil. Objectively speaking, no evil occurred in Existence, because all that happened to Joseph, was Perfection. Obviously, even Joseph's brother recognised that God had indeed favoured Joseph over his brothers. Had they been as sinless as Joseph, they would have been equally favoured. Whoever's least evil in relation to God, is the most successful., because God rightfully/righteously favours him/her.
Thank you...
Appreciate your attempt to explain your view in one of the very intricate topics. .
Let me ask a question based on one of your comment.. Below your quote...
"Suppose a man harms a woman against her will. The man only succeeded in doing this, because God fully wanted the woman to be harmed against her will in that manner"
That's a serious statement dude... Are you sure that you wrote it with intent or by mistake...
My question is.. If one is harmed by another, and the one who was harmed deserved harm coz God WANTED him or her to go through, THEN God is Evil... I don't mind if God destroys a nations of town etc etc.. Coz that He does with knowledge... That's entirely different..
But one harming another cannot be what God WANTS.. If so.. Why blame Satan...
That's why WILL of God WILLINGNESS of God two things...
The one harms and the one got harmed definitely in the will of God otherwise things won't happen.. That's okay.. But definitely what happened is not the WILLINGNES of God ... Will of God is like a letting a thing to occur with His complete awareness but not coz He wants it to happen.. If I kill you it my intention and I am responsible for it and not God..but God let the incident to happen.. If He willed He could have stopped being you being killed by me..
For example God sends Musa to King pharoa to say to deliver the children of Israel.. What pharoa doing is under the will of God as of everything... But pharoa keeping the children of Israel as slaves is not the want / willingness of God.. God wants the children of Israel to be delivered not kept as slaves..
Or God says pharou killed innocent boys.. It is not the want of God that pharoa to kill innocent children of Israel.. Impossible.. God wanted to save them.. God gave pharoa the freedom so he was arrogant and he killed children and not coz those children deserved to be killed.. If those children deserved to be killed God doesn't need to say pharou killed innocent children.. That's bizzare.. I sense from your statement like God is Mastermind behind all thing and put the blame on those who commit what God wants.. No way... God never ordered evil never support evil..
What logic is that dude?
God says avoid evil and do righteous good deed.. Such a God wants a girl to be raped by another coz she deserves to be raped by another.. So God wanted the raped and used the rapist and in the end rapist is culprit and NOT God.. OMG... That's super nonsensical... I am so sorry.. Something seriously gone wrong somewhere to you to utter it...Read my two earlier threads.. It is completely different to what you say...
God guide you and open your eyes if you have told this by mistake.. And if you are right let God guide me to understand you... -
That's a serious statement dude... Are you sure that you wrote it with intent or by mistake...
I'm sure I did not write it by mistake. I will try and show why I'm sure of what I have written.
My question is.. If one is harmed by another, and the one who was harmed deserved harm coz God WANTED him or her to go through, THEN God is Evil
God is only evil when injustice occurs. God is only evil when someone who does not deserve to be harmed is harmed. If a woman is raped, then God is definitely evil if the woman did not deserve to be raped all things considered. There's no way you can empirically find out if a woman who was raped deserved to be raped or not. You'd have to have all the premises, all the facts about her to be able to know if she deserved it or not. Only God knows what we reveal and what we hide, God fully knows what every man, woman, or angel, truly/perfectly deserve. Also do not forget, God does not lack generosity. We are not on this planet witnessing things like disease, poverty and rape because we're good people who are sincere to God and appreciative. If we were good, we'd be in paradise. We would not see poverty or suffering. And even if saw such things in Heaven (as the people in Heaven will see the people in Hell being deprived of good), we would see that it is in fact, Perfection. We would see that it is glorious. Like in a movie, you want the truly evil guy, to truly suffer. You don't want him to killed in his sleep after all the ponzi scheming and raping he did. You want him to suffer. That's what evil beings are good for. It's perfection for evil to suffer.
We are here because God gave us paradise, asked that we do not zulm (like a rapist zulms, or a tyrant zulms), and we still committed zulm, despite being in paradise. If God did not put us in this situation (where we hear about things like rape, poverty and so on...or perhaps even see them), God would have wronged Itself. There would have been injustice/evil in Existence because God would have wronged Itself. God does not wrong anyone (including Itself). We have an ideal scenario to further look at what it is to be evil, what it is to be deprived of all the good that God gave us, to look at what it is and how valuable it is to be righteous, morally good, honourable, and to choose for ourselves between being good, and being evil. We are here because we are evil. We are racing towards Forgiveness and Mercy. I guarantee you, all woman who are raped, all men who are oppressed, all children that have cancer, all are on the receiving end of what they truly/perfectly deserve. You do not know their souls. You do not why it's perfection for them to be on the receiving end of what they are on the receiving end of. What you do know, is that God is Almighty. Which means, nothing happens independently of God's Will. No child gets cancer without it being fully Willed by God. No man gets oppressed, without it being fully Willed by God. Look at the Children of Israel and what they did after the great trial they faced from their Lord. Look to their transgressions even after being saved. They are described as being God's most preferred. Yet, the sins attributed to them, are not trivial. Or look at David. If the Bible is accurate, he has committed adultery, and he schemed to have a man killed (the husband of the woman he committed adultery with) for unjustified reasons. Yet, David, is portrayed as being near to "Us". He did repent. And he had virtuous traits. But he also suffered. The Bible says that his son was killed as punishment for his actions.
God does not kill a son for his father's sins. God pairs the son with the father, such that the son who's time to die had been reached, is reached in such a manner, that it coincides with causing his father anguish. Anguish which the father perfectly/truly deserved. Again, God isn't just Omnipotent. God is Omniscient. God Handles, All Affairs...to the last atom's weight Perfectly. There are no flaws in Existence. There is no imperfect/evil/injustice in Existence. There are evil/imperfect/unjust beings, but they exist perfectly, because they are getting what they truly/perfectly deserve at all times. Everything exists Perfectly because God is the way God Is. Perfect. If God does not Forgive us and have Mercy on us, then we will be of the losers. We did evil, we deserved to lose paradise. What' the alternative, that evil/injustice occurs in Existence? That God/Existence wrongs Itself by allowing those who commit zulm to get away with it without any genuine repentance and striving towards Forgiveness?
But one harming another cannot be what God WANTS
Harm is harm. It can come in the form of you harming yourself literally (by cutting yourself, or punishing yourself), it can come in the form of you tripping up and hurting yourself, it can come in the form of a natural disaster. That which is harmed, was only harmed because it deserved to be harmed.
If so.. Why blame Satan
If we were good enough, appreciative enough, sincere enough to reason and our genuine sense of good, if we were sincerer to God, Satan would have had no power over us. If you know x is evil, and you still commit x, it does not matter that satan or your parent or your friend or your desire told you to do it. You knew x was evil. You consented/chose to do x. You are to blame. Satan is also to blame. Satan first disobeyed God. Satan first went against reason and a genuine sense of good. Satan was first unappreciative of God, then we followed. Between God and Satan, we chose Satan. But unlike Satan, we did not seek respite so we can fully become evil. We sought Forgiveness and Mercy. Some of us will become good (the ones who genuinely seek Forgiveness...the truly repentant), some of us will remain evil and become more evil perhaps (the unrepentant). God Will fill Hell with Satan and all who follow it (see 3885, 3213, 11119)
Will of God is like a letting a thing to occur with His complete awareness but not coz He wants it to happen
I know what you're saying, but I disagree. God doesn't just casually let a woman be raped or a man be oppressed or a child get cancer. God fully Wills this. I don't think you can peacefully, completely, surrender to God and God's Perfection, if you do not view matters in this way. x was raped, not coincidently, or God simply being ok with this. x was raped because God fully Wanted this. Remember, x fully wanted, and free willingly chose to be such that it wold be perfection for her to be on this earth...with all the consequences that come with it (which includes her being tested, rewarded, punished and so on). For x, either there were possibly other equally effective occurrences or events that could have resulted in x getting what x deserved, or rape was the only act that could deliver to x what x truly deserved. If there were other acts that could have had the same relevant effect of x getting what x deserves, then it doesn't really matter which of these acts occurred. All are equally good. All have the same effect all things considered. This does not take away from the fact that what occurred, was Perfection all things considered. It was not good for the woman, but had it not happened, there would have been evil in Existence. Injustice would have occurred. God would have wronged ITSELF.
If I kill you it my intention and I am responsible for it and not God..but God let the incident to happen.. If He willed He could have stopped being you being killed by me..
Yes. Absolutely. The rapist is a rapist. I use the example of rape because it is so blatantly evil on the one that does it that it's minimally controversial that the one who raped, is clearly evil. You punish the rapist if you see him (provided you don't think he has genuinely and sincerely repented, and that the victim seeks to forgive him rather than punish him...also, provided that he wasn't retaliating because the woman raped him first (very unlikely...I know, but not impossible)). If you do not, you are committing evil. You have seen rape and have done nothing. You have seen God expose you to that which calls you to respond in a fierce and stern manner if you care about goodness and God and a perfect existence, yet you do nothing. You settle for less than a perfect existence. You settle for less than God.
Yes, God wanted the woman to be raped, but God wants you to choose between being good and evil. You know that you would be lacking passion towards goodness by lacking hatred towards evil. To see the rapist rape, and to do nothing, is to display this sort of pathetic character trait. This lacking passion towards God and goodness. What you should not do (and I'm not saying you are doing this), is say God allowed evil to occur. God never allows evil to occur. If you punish the rapist, then God wanted the rapist to be punished and you were just a part of the mechanisms, within which your soul being determined/developed was also a part of the mechanisms. You may not even get a chance to punish the rapist if he dies in his sleep, or trips and breaks his neck. You do the best with what you have. You fight evil internally and externally as best as you can. You are not responsible for anyone other than yourself. You cannot harm or benefit anyone, not even yourself. Except when it comes to yourself, you know when you're being evil, and when you're not being evil. You know when you're being sincere to God, Truth and Goodness, and when you're not. You are responsible for yourself in that God only punishes when you're evil. You don't know the souls of others. You can make educated guesses, but you cannot know for sure. You don't even know what you're capable of, let alone what others are capable of. Leave it to God. But do not be like the people by the sea, who said "shall we feed a people whom God can feed". They were fed by God, they should have been appreciative of this, and so they should have fed others. If x loves God, Justice, Goodness, then x strives in the cause of these things. This includes taking action against rapists (vengeance/retribution if they are unrepentant, compassion if they are repentant). Consoling rape victims (compassion, support etc.).
But pharoa keeping the children of Israel as slaves is not the want / willingness of God.. God wants the children of Israel to be delivered not kept as slaves
Look at the following verse
And We saved you from the people of Pharaoh, they were afflicting you with the worst punishment; they used to slaughter your children, and rape your women. In that was a great test from your Lord. (249)For the Children of Israel to suffer for even one second more than they deserved, is for Existence to be imperfect. It is for God to be imperfect. God Is Perfect. So the Children of Israel suffered exactly the right amount and in the right way. They were saved, when it was perfection for them to be saved. God could have sent Moses sooner. Moses and his people could have left Egypt sooner. Someone else could have been sent. Pharaoh could have tripped and died. All of Phraoas people could have died in their sleep. The hypothetical possibilities are endless (and God is Omnipotent). But God Coordinates things Perfectly. Such that events that occurred, could not have been Coordinated, Organised, Planned, Coloured in, Connected, Crafted any better. This is all because of God. Anything good is from God, anything evil is from ourselves. Us getting cancer is because It's Perfection for us to get cancer. As in, objectively speaking, it's good that we got cancer (because it's what we truly deserved and it's only fair/just that we get what we deserve) subjectively speaking, it's bad for us, because it causes us harm. It's bad/harmful/evil for us. But It's what we deserve. So it's good all things considered. Justice considered. Perfection considered.
Or God says pharou killed innocent boys
It does not say innocent. God does not harm the innocent. God is not evil. We are.
If those children deserved to be killed God doesn't need to say pharou killed innocent children.. That's bizzare
The Quran states what happened. It is not bizarre. God IS the Mastermind of all Affairs. You cannot will anything, except, if it is also Willed by God (see 8129)
God guide you and open your eyes if you have told this by mistake.. And if you are right let God guide me to understand you...
May God guide us both and increase us in goodness.
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This that only harms happens to us if we are guilty is perverse. The child who becomes an orphan is guilty? No, you do not need to be guilty to suffer in whatever way. We do see it in fact that it is not so. Some eveils are earned, some are not. God gives that destiny. Destiny is not punishment but opportunity. Is is our trial to prove ourselves.
Bad choice of examplo on the other hand, a woman that is raped because she deserves it. ¿Where does God purport such a thing? Really perverse.
Salaam
Salam Huruf
If someone suffers (let's say because of cancer, or because they lost their parent, or because they were raped) and they did not deserve to suffer, then Existence is imperfect. Then evil/injustice has occurred in Existence. God is Omnipresent. God Is Existence. To say an innocent person can suffer, is to say God/Existence can be imperfect/evil/unjust. You do not know the soul the orphan or the rape victim. But you do know God/Existence Is Perfect. The latter is a matter of pure reason, the former is an empirical matter. You cannot doubt the dictates of pure reason, but empirical matters are open to interpretation.
I used the example of rape because I think it is a powerful example wherein which we can all agree that the rapist is evil. All acts can be justified. As far as the appearance of things go, rape is one of the hardest (if not the hardest) to justify. Given the passion I see in your reply to my post (wherein which you seem to think what I am proposing is perverse), I strongly recommend that you read my reply to Jkhan. You cannot peacefully surrender if you think Existence to be imperfect. How can you possibly peacefully surrender to God, when you think innocent people can suffer?
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No, I never said existence is imperfect, even is rape is undeserved, orphanhood is undeserved, many sufferings are undeserved.
Of ocurse our life is imperfect in the sense tht we deem perfection something we pursue, if everything was erfect we wouldnot pursue anything we would not strive to be BETTER. Only God is perfect.The fact you miss is that neither life nor existence ends when rape happens or orphanhood happens. Life and existence continue and God continues and God is Justice, Justice is one of His names. THEREFORE, if something unjust happens to anybody, GOD will make something much better for her or him than that which was unjust. Therefore God is just and perfect because he can always make anything worth and because een suffering has meaning. What have done all mothers of the world? All of them are gulty that they should give birth with suffering? No they are not guilty they are the expression of God's rahma, therefore they will and indeed they are many times rewarded in this life, but most certainly in the garden.
Existence from a certain point of view is perfect and Justice prevails, but nowhere it is set that you get the good first and the bad later, it may be the othe way, and life is indeed a learning and experiencing, that is how we evolve nd mke our way back to God.
Salaam
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Peace Brother Nimnimk..
Thank you for your response.. Hope readers would get a rough idea what you try to elaborate..
But in short, God is never Evil and He does not have that attribute.. Further God is not the one get surprised.. That's not his attribute.. All knower doesnt need to be surprised and no need to apply Evil.. While he knows all things..
Still you didn't get what is Will of God... A word has went forth so He never changes His promise.. Free will of human being and Jin are in fact freedom.. They don't wait God's will to happen but they themselves do.. But knower of all. Things knows that would happen.. Between His will and our freedom there is no connection or interference... Even if God saves a person from a killer.. Coz God does what He wants and the killer does what he wants.. Killer failed God won.. Still he got his freewill but he was not successful in doing it..
God never intent Evil never surprises.. Though God questions like if He doesn't know the answer.. The way He questioned iblees what made you not submit? Or Jesus.. Did you order people to rake you as god? God never surprises.. God questiona allowing our freewill.. -
Peace... Nimnimk
I am writing to you with interest.. Let me ask this question then.. Prophets were killed by people... In this scenario..
Do you mean to say that prophets, God chosen one to receive His messages and pass to to people for guidance, do in fact deserve to be brutally murdered at the hands of disbelievers and interestingly that was God's plan and that is what God WANTED for those prophets?
If so, why God Himself ask the same people who killed His prophets/messengers, Why did you kill prophets while that is what God wanted?
'Why' should not be a Question from God while Himself wanted His prophets to be brutally murdered by those murderers.. coz they deserved... That's what you say..
That doesn't make any sense...
God knew those prophets will be killed.. Fine.. He knows everything... Between Knowing something merely in advance and Planning something Evil has a huge difference... Don't put the blame on God simply coz He knows everything...
God knows future.. But God is not responsible for what happens coz of freewill of men and jinn. I reiterate.. God is not responsible for Adam betraying.. It was not God's plan.. Not what God wanted.. But He knew..
God knows what is in our hearts and what evil we do plan, but it doesn't mean God plan the evil that we our dirty hearts plan.. That's totally contrary..
You got it wrong...
Coz God says when they plan, We (God) also plan and We are the best of Planners..
God is instant.. And not keep planning in advance... Coz God reacts to our free will actions..
If God plans every evil act what Human does as you claim, then throwing such people in hell fire to abide in forever is such a shame..
We have been sent here to be fully tested but not accomplish God's evil plan..
God says Musa go with the message PERHAPS they(Firouwn, Haman Qariun etc) would get guidance...
God never do evil... God only retribute to those who deserved...
God says He didn't wrong you but you wroged yourself...
The one got raped is her destiny coz of another evil persons freewill.. God didn't wrong her neither the rapist...Freewill has no harm.. Without freewill there no meaningful life.. Without freewill no test... Without freewill no one deserves Janna.. Without freewill no one deserves to be put in Hell..
God didn't create evil.. But people turned the good things into evil by opting to do what is prohibited to do...
God is innocent of what men and jinn do -
No, I never said existence is imperfect
Salam Huruf. What you have said and continue to say, logically implies that existence is imperfect
You say "many sufferings are undeserved". If they are undeserved, then that means injustice has occurred in Existence. Does it not? If x suffers but x did not deserve to suffer, then x got what he didn't deserve, did he not? Any instance wherein which someone gets what they don't deserve (whether it's good or bad for them) is an instance of injustice. Any existence wherein which injustice occurs, is imperfect. It would take an imperfect god, for existence to be imperfect.
The fact you miss is that neither life nor existence ends when rape happens or orphanhood happens.
If the one who was raped, and the one who became an orphan did not deserve to have it happen to them, then existence is no longer perfect is it? god is no longer perfect is he? How can god be perfect when he has willed undeserved suffering? A relevant verse here
You cannot will anything except if God also Wills, the Lord of the worlds (8129)
The Quran also highlights that we cannot harm or benefit anyone (even ourselves). Sure, we can wrong ourselves by rejecting God's Perfection or pure reason (which is unfair and evil of us to do) but God Rightfully/Righteously harms us, because that's what we deserve. God's Omnipotence is absolute. God's Perfection is absolute. God and Existence are one and the same. Existence Is absolutely Perfect. We are not Existence. We are not Perfect/God.
Do you still think the one who was raped, or the one who became an orphan, did not deserve what happened to them? Do you still think our Lord/Existence is such that It brings about undeserved suffering? Can you yes without contradicting both pure reason and the Quran?
Our Lord does not wrong Itself, nor anyone else. If we suffer at all, it is because we wronged ourselves in some way, shape, or form. This includes the orphan and the rape victim.
We shaded you with clouds, and sent down to you manna and quails, "Eat from the goodness of the provisions We have provided you." They did not wrong Us, but they wronged themselves. (257)
We are provided with good things so that we may be appreciative. So that we may exist in Existence and be in absolute awe of Existence/God. This is a true privilege. A Mercy from God. This is clearly good for us. We had paradise. Yet, we wrong ourselves when we choose to be unappreciative. It starts with allowing the devil to whisper lies about God (it starts by letting something hint or whisper to you that Existence is not Perfect), once this enters the heart and is truly believed, it then escalates to despairing or growing exultant. Both of which are damning, and rightfully so.
What would God want with your punishment if you only appreciated and acknowledged? God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable. (4147)
Why would God Will someone to be raped or become an orphan? That which we can say with certainty is because it's perfection for this to happen. It's perfectly deserved. Perfection Is Omnipresent. As for how it's perfection, that's a different matter. If you knew all there was to know about the orphan or the rape victim, I guarantee that you would conclude that it was perfection for them to have been raped or for them to have become an orphan.
Would you guide whom God misguides? Would you do things differently to God? Would you describe Existence as being such that It brings about or has brought about undeserved suffering?
What have done all mothers of the world? All of them are gulty that they should give birth with suffering?
Yes. That's exactly what I think. Can you disagree with this given what I have written above? Women appear to be able to choose not to get pregnant (with Mary appearing to be the only exception as far as we know). Also, if you check what the Bible says, God says the woman will suffer via child birth as a result of eating from the tree. Do not forget, we were in paradise...we sinned. Thus, we suffer in this worldly life. This is Perfection. Or would you prefer that God gives us paradise, we turn unappreciative and become of the zalemin (we become unfair/evil towards That which is wholly innocent of evil and wholly Generous), and then God wrongs Itself and continues to give us paradise? I do not want to serve or be in an imperfect existence.
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Does God plan our good part of lives or it happens according to our freewill and choice or circumstances?
(...)
Does it teach us that whatever happens in our life we need to be patient until God make a way out?Coz.. Who is responsible for Yakub, Yousuf's father's tears and worries for years after years? Is it God or Yousuf brothers? Somehow, Yousuf's father spent bulk of his life thinking of his loving son so did Yousuf...
Or else that's part of Dream's fulfilment.. Or We need to tolerate certain things in life until God gives us happiness..?Could that dream ever be fulfilled without Yousuf's separation?
Peace,
In my opinion, we should be careful to not read the story of Joseph in Qur'an in its literal meaning as if it were the descriptive narrative of his original life (tawil as in verse 3.7) and also to not speculate too far in directions other that the intended one.
When I was a student, I had a Syrian teacher who taught us Arabic. He told us "In French , you must read first in order to understand. In Arabic, this is the converse, you must understand first in order to read".
But so like Arabic is Qur'an you must understand what Qur'an says first in order to read it.Once again, as I always repeat in different ways, we are not the primary recipients of Qur'an message, and we must know who were the original recipients of Qur'an when trying to understand it.
Here is Surah 12, Qur'an doesn't tell the story of Baba Farfur, or the Pandava brothers or Arjuna, or I don't know whatever Indian or Persian tale.
If the purpose of Qur'an in Surah 12 had solely been to speak about the hand of God on destiny, then any story would have served the trick. In particular, the stories of the Mahabharata speak very well about freewill, destiny and torments of fate, much better that Qur'an in my opinion.
And those Indian stories could certainly be known to Arabs because of their commercial roads long time established with India.No. It speaks about two figures that are at the core of the Jewish identity, I mean Jacob, who, I should remind, is nicknamed Israel in Genesis, even though Qur'an does not say it, and Joseph.
And Qur'an doesn't begin the story with something like e.g. "On those times in Palestine there was a God fearing man whose name was Jacob, who had twelve sons, and whose preferred one was the youngest called Joseph, and the others were jealous of him" as the Gospels did about Jesus' birth.
No, no. It begins straight with "When Joseph said to his father, “O my father, I saw eleven planets, and the sun, and the moon; I saw them bowing down to me.”, as if people were already supposed to know who is this Joseph.
And except Surah 12, Qur'an hardly speaks of Joseph, so it assumes that its audience already know the story from a previous source, i.e. the Bible, and likely other Jewish writings.
So clearly the primary audience of this story was either Jews or Jews-like and they knew what Qur'an alluded to in this narrative, and the purpose of Qur'an is deeply rooted into the ancient Jewish thought.
In Jewish tradition, Joseph is not the mere the son of Jacob / Israel, he is above all one of the two or three archetypes of the Messiah, with the Messiah of David (in Jewish and Christian traditions) and the Messiah of Aaron (in the Dead Sea Scrolls).
Jews and early Christians believed that either there would be two Messiahs, one descending from Joseph, the other one from David, or that the Messiah would descend from Joseph and David, and this is why in the Gospels, Jesus has two ancestries, one from David and one from Joseph.
The Messiah in the Jewish tradition represents the fulfillment of the promise of salvation, he is the one who will make both Israel and the pagan nations enter into the world to come and the renewed covenant with God.
The Messiah is metaphorically represented by the son.
In Genesis, a lot of stories revolve around the ardent desire and long waiting for a son, e.g. Abraham, Lea, Rachel, etc.. What they mean is that the people of Israel is desperately waiting for the Messiah.The Messiah must also come at height of the ordeal or trial, which in my opinion, Qur'an renders by the Arabic word "fitna".
In a sense, the Messiah of Joseph represents the suffering Messiah since Joseph was thrown into a well and sold in slavery to Egypt, while the Messiah of David represents the royal Messiah.The story of Joseph, whether in the Bible or Qur'an is made of several substories, most of them having a common pattern that the hero comes through the height of the trial thrown in the well, the temptation of the wife of Putiphar, thrown in jail, etc. before salvation can take place.
As an illustration, let's take this verse
وَجَاءَتْ سَيَّارَةٌ فَأَرْسَلُوا وَارِدَهُمْ فَأَدْلَىٰ دَلْوَهُ ۖ قَالَ يَا بُشْرَىٰ هَٰذَا غُلَامٌ ۚ وَأَسَرُّوهُ بِضَاعَةً ۚ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ12.19
12.19 Wa Jā'at Sayyāratun Fa'arsalū Wa Aridahum Fa'adlá Dalwahu Qāla Yā Bushrá Hādhā Ghulāmun Wa 'Asarrūhu Biđāatan Wa AllāhuAlīmun Bimā Ya`malūna
12.19 A caravan passed by, and they sent their water-carrier. He lowered his bucket, and said, “Good news. Here is a boy.” And they hid him as merchandise. But God was aware of what they did.I underlined the two keywords of this verse the word Bushra / good news and the word Ghulam / boy.
The Arabic word "bushra" alludes to the Jewish concept of Hebrew bessora, with same meaning. And by the way, this is also the meaning of the word Gospel whether under the Old English form or under the Greek form εὐαγγέλιον / euangélion.
The bessora / good news is the annunciation that salvation is going to take place very soon.The word Ghulam (غُلَٰم) is a bit more complex. It means boy or son, which for sure alludes to Messianic characteristic. But the son also means the promise of entering the world to come, and by that expression I translate the Hebrew "Olam Haba". The word "world" in Arabic is عالم / 'Alam. So, to one dot above the 'ayn, the world Ghulam and the word 'Alam look the same.
So the purpose of the word "Ghulam" is to make hear the word "'Alam", hence the world to come and salvation, i.e. dunya al-akhira.
So this verse is an allusion to the Jewish principle / hope of the salvation at the height of the trial.
Joseph represents at the same time the Messiah but also the people of Israel in need of redemption.
Verse 12.42 conveys a similar idea.
12.42 And he said to the one he thought would be released, “Mention me to your master.” But Satan caused him to forget mentioning him to his master, so he remained in prison for several years.
The story of Joseph with his two inmates, the good one and the bad one has also framed the Gospel narrative of the crucifixion of Jesus crucified between the good thief and the bad thief.
By the way, it illustrates another key feature of the ancient Jewish narratives made for expounding the divine will, i.e. overdetermination. That is, similar points of the divine will are expounded in different pericopes of a seemingly linear main narrative (inside the story of Joseph) or even some allude to another narrative (the story of Jesus vs. the story of Joseph). This is the meaning of the word "mutashabih" in Qur'an.
It is interesting to notice how Qur'an in Surah 12 alludes to other parts of Qur'an by some words and expressions.
Let's give some examples.In verse 12.8, the word ʿuṣ'bat (عُصْبَة), group is used for designating a group with bad intentions as in verses 24.11 and 28.76.
Still in verse 12.8, the expression dhalil mubinin (ضَلَالٍ مُبِينٍ), evident error that the brothers of Joseph are using to describe their father Jacob, is used later in the same surah about the wife of al-Aziz12.30 Some ladies in the city said, “The governor's wife is trying to seduce her servant. She is deeply in love with him. We see she is in evident error.”
This expression is used also elsewhere like, e.g. in verse 21.54 about Abraham
21.54 He said, “You and your parents are in evident error.”This suggests that the story of the wife of the governor means something else than just a woman in love with Joseph and trying to seduce him.
وَقَالَ نِسْوَةٌ فِي الْمَدِينَةِ امْرَأَتُ الْعَزِيزِ تُرَاوِدُ فَتَاهَا عَنْ نَفْسِهِ ۖ قَدْ شَغَفَهَا حُبًّا ۖ إِنَّا لَنَرَاهَا فِي ضَلَالٍ مُبِينٍ12.30
12.30 Wa Qāla Niswatun Fī Al-Madīnati Amra'atu Al-Azīzi Turāwidu FatāhāAn Nafsihi Qad Shaghafahā Ĥubbāan 'Innā Lanarāhā Fī Đalālin Mubīnin
12.30 Some ladies in the city said, “The governor's wife is trying to seduce her servant. She is deeply in love with him. We see she is in evident error.”The temptation of sexual relationship is actually the metaphor of the idolatry (or association as it is said in Qur'an).
As I explained above, the Messianic idea is that the pagan nations have vocation at the end of times to enter into the covenant with God together with the Jews.
In the Jewish thought, those pagans, represented by the wife of the governor in the story of Joseph, have ardent desire to enter into this covenant, but the other hand, until that time, they want to continue practicing an idolatrous religion. This idolatry represents a temptation for the people of Israel and unless the people of Israel gets rid of this temptation they will remain in the sijjin, i.e. the prison of exile or the trial, see also verses 83.7 and 83.8.In verse 12.14, the brothers of Joseph say “If the wolf ate him, and we are many, we would be khāsirūn (losers).”.
The same word khāsirūn is used e.g. in verse 2.2712.27 Those who violate God’s covenant after its confirmation, and sever what God has commanded to be joined, and commit evil on earth. These are the khāsirūn.
This suggests that the brothers of Joseph metaphorically represent those who are targeted in verse 2.27.
And so on, I hope you start to see the pattern.
A crucial tool for this kind of exploration is of course https//corpus.quran.com.That said, the story of Joseph is Surah 12 has still a little bit to say about destiny in the sense that whatever you know about the future or the unseen world cannot help you for the sake of salvation.
It could have been otherwise in numerous tales the hero saves himself / herself by being told in advance some warning signs by some soothsayer and making use of them.No, here Joseph and Jacob know the divine signs but they accomplish their fate anyway.
Likewise Joseph's brothers are unaware of the divine signs but they accomplish their fate anyway.I believe that the expression Ghayābati Al-Jubbi in verses 12.10 and 12.15, the bottom of the well, by using the word Ghayabat that is close to the word al-Ghayb targets the Gnostics belief that salvation is only possible by knowing the al-Ghayb, i.e. the unseen world.
That is the Jews or Jews-like who were the audience of the Qur'an preacher also believed in Gnosis, i.e. salvation by intimate knowledge of the unseen world.
When Qur'an quotes God saying to Joseph into the darkness of the well "Latunabbi'annahum Bi'amrihim Hādhā Wa Hum Lā Yash`urūna" (لَتُنَبِّئَنَّهُمْ بِأَمْرِهِمْ هَٰذَا وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ) / “You will inform them of this deed of theirs when they are unaware.”, it suggests that Gnostics (the brothers of Joseph and associators according to Qur'an) are actually not able to get knowledge of the unseen, hence are not able to gain salvation themselves, without the help of a messenger acting as an archetype of Messiah.It is instructive that Qur'an puts in their mouths towards the end of the story in verse 12.81
12.81 “Go back to your father, and say, ‘Our father, your son has stolen. We testify only to what we know, and we were not the guardians of the unseen (al-Ghayb).’”For the sake of salvation, they have to drop their belief into salvation by knowing the unseen.
And in my opinion, this is the true morale of this story of Joseph in Surah 12. -
Though God questions like if He doesn't know the answer.. The way He questioned iblees what made you not submit? Or Jesus.. Did you order people to rake you as god? God never surprises.. God questiona allowing our freewill..
Of course God knew the answer. Recall that in 230 God tells the angles, that It Knows what they do not know. God Knows what we reveal and what we hide. What difference does it make that God Interacts with Ibless or Jesus in this way? It was Perfection for this interaction to occur. I do not want to see God Put someone in Hell or take someone out of paradise without the following process happening
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
3660 "Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil for he is your most ardent enemy?"Before God told Adam to descend from paradise, God asked Adam, did I not tell you that Satan is your enemy and to not eat from the tree? God knew the answer to this question, but it's the Grace of God or the Perfection of God, to treat Adam in this way. To question it in this way...instead of just taking Adam out of paradise.
Do you mean to say that prophets, God chosen one to receive His messages and pass to to people for guidance, do in fact deserve to be brutally murdered at the hands of disbelievers and interestingly that was God's plan and that is what God WANTED for those prophets?
Yes. If they were brutally murdered, that's what God Willed/Wanted. If they were murdered in their sleep, that's what God Willed. If they were crucified, that's what God Willed. How can it be other than this when none can will anything except if God also Wills it? Can you answer this question?
478 Wherever you may be, death will find you, even if you are in fortified towers. If any good befalls them, they say, "This is from God," and if any bad befalls them, they say, "This is from you!" Say, "All is from God;" what is wrong with these people, they barely understand anything said!
3165 It was when you suffered setback. Even though you afflicted them with twice as much setback, you said, "Where is this coming from?" Say, "It is from yourselves." God is capable of all things.
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any evil that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness.
If x suffers, then x was on the receiving end of what was bad/evil for him. But, the fact that x suffered, was perfection purely because x deserved to suffer. Thus, objectively speaking it was good/perfect that x suffered. x could be a prophet, x could be an angel.
If I get fat as a result of eating too much and exercising too little, and I am unhappy about this, then this does not take anything away from the fact that it was perfection for me to get fat. The good man cannot be harmed if he truly is good enough. But then again, he would never have left paradise if he was truly good enough. Jesus, Muhammad, Cain, Abel, David, Abraham, Adam, Mary, all disobeyed God. All were unfair/evil towards God.If so, why God Himself ask the same people who killed His prophets/messengers, Why did you kill prophets while that is what God wanted?
At some point, God Said to Jesus It Will terminate him and raise him to Itself. The are an endless number of ways or mechanisms within which Jesus could have been killed. Amongst these mechanisms, is to get oppressive and unrighteous people to complete their transgressions by exposing them to Jesus. They then complete their transgression in time and in coordination with Jesus having fulfilled his duties to God. It's time for Jesus to die, and they seem to be willing to kill prophets. Will they really go through with it? Obviously, God Knows in advance that they will. Jesus dies, they complete their transgression. Jesus goes to Heaven, they go to Hell. Jesus was sent to guide them, they killed him (if that is what happened). Adam taught the angels what they did not know, all prostrated to him except Iblees. Kill two birds with one stone. This is efficiency. It is glorious. Recall that after we ate from the tree, that we descended as enemies to one another. Why do you think Abel said the following to Cain
529 "I want you to have both my sin as well as your own sin, and you will then be among the dwellers of the fire. Such is the reward of the wicked."
Again, the rapist, the thief, the liar, the murderer, is only worthy of blame, if and only if, he thinks his intent is evil, but still commits to it anyway.
530 So he found it in himself to kill his brother, and he killed him. He thus became one of the losers.
Whether it's in the from of killing prophets, raping women, or ignoring pure reason, if it is evil intent on his part and he has embraced/accepted/chosen to be this way, then he is truly evil. Worthy of Hell. He has chosen to serve or commit to other than God and has persisted such that it would have been imperfection for God to Guide him. Would you guide whom God (the wholly innocent of evil) misguides?
God is not responsible for Adam betraying.. It was not God's plan.. Not what God wanted.. But He knew..
It's exactly what God Wanted/Willed. Otherwise, God would never create Adam or expose Iblees to him. Adam is responsible for betraying God, God is responsible for God/Existence Being Perfect. Thus, Adam lost paradise, and some of us will have a better paradise than before, whilst some of us will go to Hell. What do you think God means when God Tells the angels that It Knows what they do not know? Why do you think the angles questioned God?
And your Lord said to the angels "I am placing a successor on the earth." They said "Will You place in it he who would make corruption in it, and spill blood; while we praise by Your glory, and exalt to You?" He said "I know what you do not know." (230)
Do not forget that it is God who guides or misguides. Misguidance does not happen independently of God. Nothing happens independently of God/Existence. God does not just do nothing and x gets misguided. God Wills x to be misguided. It's what x deserves.
The one got raped is her destiny coz of another evil persons freewill.. God didn't wrong her neither the rapist...
Did she deserve to be raped? If yes, then no injustice has occurred in Existence. If no, then injustice has occurred in existence, therefore existence is imperfect. Either God Is Perfect...which means Existence Is Perfect, or there is no god truly worth serving. Again, the rapist is evil and blameworthy, we are obliged to punish if we see him and have no reason to believe that he is genuinely sorry. The rapist is evil if and only if there was evil intent or 'reasoning' on his part (which is almost certainly guaranteed). Look at my example with Jesus for more details on this.
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Salam Huruf. What you have said and continue to say, logically implies that existence is imperfect
You say "many sufferings are undeserved". If they are undeserved, then that means injustice has occurred in Existence. Does it not? If x suffers but x did not deserve to suffer, then x got what he didn't deserve, did he not? Any instance wherein which someone gets what they don't deserve (whether it's good or bad for them) is an instance of injustice. Any existence wherein which injustice occurs, is imperfect. It would take an imperfect god, for existence to be imperfect.If the one who was raped, and the one who became an orphan did not deserve to have it happen to them, then existence is no longer perfect is it? god is no longer perfect is he? How can god be perfect when he has willed undeserved suffering? A relevant verse here
You cannot will anything except if God also Wills, the Lord of the worlds (8129)
The Quran also highlights that we cannot harm or benefit anyone (even ourselves). Sure, we can wrong ourselves by rejecting God's Perfection or pure reason (which is unfair and evil of us to do) but God Rightfully/Righteously harms us, because that's what we deserve. God's Omnipotence is absolute. God's Perfection is absolute. God and Existence are one and the same. Existence Is absolutely Perfect. We are not Existence. We are not Perfect/God.
Do you still think the one who was raped, or the one who became an orphan, did not deserve what happened to them? Do you still think our Lord/Existence is such that It brings about undeserved suffering? Can you yes without contradicting both pure reason and the Quran?
Our Lord does not wrong Itself, nor anyone else. If we suffer at all, it is because we wronged ourselves in some way, shape, or form. This includes the orphan and the rape victim.
We shaded you with clouds, and sent down to you manna and quails, "Eat from the goodness of the provisions We have provided you." They did not wrong Us, but they wronged themselves. (257)
We are provided with good things so that we may be appreciative. So that we may exist in Existence and be in absolute awe of Existence/God. This is a true privilege. A Mercy from God. This is clearly good for us. We had paradise. Yet, we wrong ourselves when we choose to be unappreciative. It starts with allowing the devil to whisper lies about God (it starts by letting something hint or whisper to you that Existence is not Perfect), once this enters the heart and is truly believed, it then escalates to despairing or growing exultant. Both of which are damning, and rightfully so.
What would God want with your punishment if you only appreciated and acknowledged? God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable. (4147)
Why would God Will someone to be raped or become an orphan? That which we can say with certainty is because it's perfection for this to happen. It's perfectly deserved. Perfection Is Omnipresent. As for how it's perfection, that's a different matter. If you knew all there was to know about the orphan or the rape victim, I guarantee that you would conclude that it was perfection for them to have been raped or for them to have become an orphan.
Would you guide whom God misguides? Would you do things differently to God? Would you describe Existence as being such that It brings about or has brought about undeserved suffering?
Yes. That's exactly what I think. Can you disagree with this given what I have written above? Women appear to be able to choose not to get pregnant (with Mary appearing to be the only exception as far as we know). Also, if you check what the Bible says, God says the woman will suffer via child birth as a result of eating from the tree. Do not forget, we were in paradise...we sinned. Thus, we suffer in this worldly life. This is Perfection. Or would you prefer that God gives us paradise, we turn unappreciative and become of the zalemin (we become unfair/evil towards That which is wholly innocent of evil and wholly Generous), and then God wrongs Itself and continues to give us paradise? I do not want to serve or be in an imperfect existence.
No, your idea of perfection is segmentary. If you divide existence and cut out what you dislike then you are nto talking about existence but about a part of existence which thenyou judge without taking the whole of it on the evaluation. Existence is everyhting that exist or will exist, has existed or will exist. in human competence, because abviously God is not subject to time nor is ,easured in time, since he is the creator of time as he es the creator of each single thing and phenomenon. You are not seeing the whole ime, the whole existence, and really to jusge that on that premise, excuse me but it is really pretentious and preposterous. From your stand, you need to have orphans which are guilty for whatever, I do not know whether you want them to be guilty of their orphanhood, or jus of anything else that they should make up with their orphanhood. They should know if their are guilty, but orphans usually hae not made themselves gulty of such a thing. You would want people to be guilty without even having the least hint of it. Intent does not count?
As we say, stop here, I am getting down...
Oher than that, if it makes you happier, I rather have an imperfect existence rather than one in which orphans are guilty of their orphanhood and women are guilty of being raped. That is the top of the cake.
Salaam
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No, your idea of perfection is segmentary. If you divide existence and cut out what you dislike then you are nto talking about existence but about a part of existence which thenyou judge without taking the whole of it on the evaluation. Existence is everyhting that exist or will exist, has existed or will exist. in human competence, because abviously God is not subject to time nor is ,easured in time, since he is the creator of time as he es the creator of each single thing and phenomenon. You are not seeing the whole ime, the whole existence, and really to jusge that on that premise, excuse me but it is really pretentious and preposterous. From your stand, you need to have orphans which are guilty for whatever, I do not know whether you want them to be guilty of their orphanhood, or jus of anything else that they should make up with their orphanhood. They should know if their are guilty, but orphans usually hae not made themselves gulty of such a thing. You would want people to be guilty without even having the least hint of it. Intent does not count?
As we say, stop here, I am getting down...
Oher than that, if it makes you happier, I rather have an imperfect existence rather than one in which orphans are guilty of their orphanhood and women are guilty of being raped. That is the top of the cake.
Salaam
I'd rather only have people become orphans or get raped only if they deserve it. Would your prefer otherwise? Would you prefer that people who don't deserve to be raped to be raped? Would you prefer an imperfect existence to a perfect existence? Would you surrender to that which is not perfect? It's up to you what you want to settle for. It's better for you to settle for God/Perfection (a perfect existence...the true god). You cannot will anything except if it is also Willed by God. If you think God Willed for innocent people to get raped, you are saying what is irrational and not true of Existence/God. This is blasphemy. It's bad. It's sin. It's evil.
So, is it me who is being pretentious and preposterous, or you who have this view of existence being imperfect? If you are truthful, genuine, sincere to God, authentic in this matter, how do you reconcile what I have just said? How does God Handle all affairs, Will all things, be wholly innocent of evil, yet still be the case that underserved suffering occurs? Don't forget that I addressed your points, both by way of pure reason, and by way of scripture, despite your excess in allowing yourself to consider my view as perverse. Now you've allowed yourself to imply that I'm being pretentious and preposterous. Again, if you are the one sincere to God in this instance and blessed with knowledge, tell me exactly where it is in what I have described to you regarding God/Existence, that I am wrong. If you cannot do this, and you will not be able to this, then you are at fault, and in my opinion, owe me an apology. Consider this post, a taste of your own medicine. A mirroring of your own attitude.
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Peace... Nimnimak
Thank you for your response...Below your question..
"How can it be other than this when none can will anything except if God also Wills it? Can you answer this question?"You are good at explaining and explaing in clear language.. But you failed to understand what's God's will and human freewill.. That's a total mess in my grasp...
For you God is evil... Coz if you claim in this way.. God created Iblees and made him Evil so that in future he can marshal his evil using Iblees.. So iblees didn't react in his freewill but God made him as bait... That's not God.. God is truth and pure..
God gave all Malika freedom, so did Iblees... But his own freewill turned to a mess.. He disbelieved in the authority of God by disobeying His command... So He went astray... So.. God sent him astray... If God made Iblees as well like other malaikas then we all deserve to be living in Janna forever...
What a hilarious God He He is if what you say is right...
He WANTED Iblees to disobey Him in the first place, then blame Iblees for not obeying His command... What nonsense? It is not God wanted.. God is innocent from what His creatures choose to do out of freewill.. God could have stopped Iblees disobeying His command.. But why should He stop while He has given freewill... He is not to change the way He created.. From iblees all issues crept up.. right... So.. Ibkees was not acting on his own but God wanted... So.. God is ruling an evil world creating evil in His own... That's impossible... God doesn't have any such attributes....Will of God has a massive meaning... Don't confuse it by restricting it to negative aspects...
Suppose if Isa is to be born to Maryam it is Will of God and it is His willingness as well...
Tsunami or any destruction to take place in any place at the right time.. It is the WILL of God and His willingness...
If you or I were to die after 10 years naturally or by cancer then it is the WILL of God..
Such are directly God involved and no-one can involve.. Will was God's and that's what He wanted and willingness...Then comes actions of Human and Jinns... God created us but God didn't create our character... Character we created... We our own our brain and heart creata characters... Character does good and evil...
What iblees did or Adam did or Nuh people did or pharoa did or etc etc.. All people did... What differs here to the earlier list is here action is by human and jins not by God... Former action. Was by God and within His want...But nothing happens without His knowledge even the evil characters plays a role here..
To summarize God's WILL
TYPE 1... Totally God... Will is God's and propeller is God everything is God even Good or bad the outcome...no human or Jin involved...
TYPE 2.. totally human and Jinn responsible for action... God is not propeller... Only difference it happened within the knowledge of God... That's will..
When God said to Malika I knew what you don't know.. Doesn't mean that God planning behind evil unknown to malaika..
Bring an attribute of God saying He is Evil... -
Peace,
479 Whatever good/benefit comes to you is from Allah and whatever evil/misfortune
is from yourself/your own soul. We have sent you as a messenger to mankind.
Allah is sufficient as witness.Yes the innocent face injustice, crime, death, war at the hands of others, but must
strive to overcome the unfortunate things in their lives like Joseph and Job.Oprah winfrey was raped as a child. Tyler Perry was homeless.
Allah is the creator of "all" things, we choose right or wrong sometimes in ignorance,
humility, arrogance, ego, anger, love, psycopathy, compassion, etc.The story of Joseph is a wonderful tale about a man who rises above many
hardships because he pocessed a heart of righteousness whom his brothers
resented. A goodness that radiated attractiveness to women. And a demeanor
of honesty. In the end his good father was rewarded for his patience.
What a reunion it must have been!peace
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I'd rather only have people become orphans or get raped only if they deserve it. Would your prefer otherwise? Would you prefer that people who don't deserve to be raped to be raped? Would you prefer an imperfect existence to a perfect existence? Would you surrender to that which is not perfect? It's up to you what you want to settle for. It's better for you to settle for God/Perfection (a perfect existence...the true god). You cannot will anything except if it is also Willed by God. If you think God Willed for innocent people to get raped, you are saying what is irrational and not true of Existence/God. This is blasphemy. It's bad. It's sin. It's evil.
So, is it me who is being pretentious and preposterous, or you who have this view of existence being imperfect? If you are truthful, genuine, sincere to God, authentic in this matter, how do you reconcile what I have just said? How does God Handle all affairs, Will all things, be wholly innocent of evil, yet still be the case that underserved suffering occurs? Don't forget that I addressed your points, both by way of pure reason, and by way of scripture, despite your excess in allowing yourself to consider my view as perverse. Now you've allowed yourself to imply that I'm being pretentious and preposterous. Again, if you are the one sincere to God in this instance and blessed with knowledge, tell me exactly where it is in what I have described to you regarding God/Existence, that I am wrong. If you cannot do this, and you will not be able to this, then you are at fault, and in my opinion, owe me an apology. Consider this post, a taste of your own medicine. A mirroring of your own attitude.
It is not what you or I prefer, it is what is observable and provable. People have weful things hapenning to them even when they do not deserve it, and as Hawk has cited, the Qura'n says as much.
And I did not call you anything, wht i did call things was certain things you keep saying that if somebody suffers something even if he r she has done nothing to earn it, that according to you that would prove existence is imperfect.
Still you have again not considered that you are looking at existnce in segmented pieces and not in the whole. I will say it again and leave it there. Existence is everything that has existed, exists or will exist and it is perfect becuse God will reward thos who learn and suffer with patience whatever undeserved or deserved comes to them. The whole of existence is perfect, not any segment of it. It is as if you read a novel and choose to consider the novel only art of it, the most horrible part and say that it is a horrible novel.
Salaam
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Peace brothers and sisters.
I am talking to those who believe in GOD in this post. and everybody interested in reflecting.Are we expecting this life to be perfect? Yet GOD is perfection, so why this contrast?
GOD created the weather elements for us ,the sun ,fire...etc Can we say,when these things harm/kill GOD created "evil"? So why does extreme heat,cold ,fire,extreme weather harm/kill people?
Suffering ,oppression,injustice occur all over the earth in all ages why?Let us go back to the origin of this life,why did GOD set us up to be humans on earth? Why not be Angels or animals or...any other creation?
GOD created all this universe for us and restricted us to live on this tiny insignificant place-earth- compared to other bigger planets why?
GOD made earth habitable for us and made productivity so that its inhabitants will have a turn living in it why?
GOD sent us scriptures with prophets and made sure each generation had the message,why?What is apparent is we had no choice in where we live or what was created in it. We are here and we are trying to make sense of why and how.
IQoran does not explain existence of suffering/evil. That part of the knowledge is with GOD and we have only been given some of the knowledge
The message of Qoran is a way of life; a code of conduct for successful living in the trials and tests of this life. it is not an all encompassing theory of everythingBut since we are asking about it, We want a peaceful life and a peaceful people in it. Anything that is not peaceful in its nature is contrary to the message of Qoran. In order to attain this state , we face trials and tribulations. It is not only believers or disbelievers who do this but all other religions like Christians, Jewish believers, Hindus and above all Buddhists in their quest for the Nirvan, face tests and their success in attaining the peace depends upon their performance in those tests
A peaceful state , by design, requires a system of accountability and correction. In order to attain the perfect peace, several stages have to be passed successfully. Suffering through those stages is actually a journey and not an end in and of itself
A peaceful state of a person requires submission to GOD Alone and this is the hardest test to pass. This involves tests and tasks which are inexplicable and illogical according to human reasoning and standards. These tests may come in form of sudden catastrophes, painful affliction of innocent people and irrational loss of life and wealth. These tests qualify as truest form of human suffering and require the highest form of surrender to the almighty.
While one reflects/study/ponder Qoran to find answers to these difficult questions,what is certain is that GOD is in control,GOD does everything for good reasons and GOD is the only just judge for everyone. Complete and perfect justice for what each one deserves.
Why do we expect the life and death of everyone on earth to be the same when GOD expects one of two ways .Disasters /suffering...happens to all but it is due to choices and decisions of the "evil ones".
Believers should accept that this is part of life and accept whatever happens to them,knowing that all good is from GOD and all bad is from the decisions and choices of either us or others that can affect us.
A verse that gives us the strength to accept whatever comes our way,good or bad and to know that as long as there are "evil people" there will carry on being disasters and suffering. Only when all are peaceful and submitting to our Creator will there be total peace and perfectionEven if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). God controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if God willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until God's promise is fulfilled. God will never change the predetermined destiny.
وَلَو أَنَّ قُرءانًا سُيِّرَت بِهِ الجِبالُ أَو قُطِّعَت بِهِ الأَرضُ أَو كُلِّمَ بِهِ المَوتىٰ بَل لِلَّهِ الأَمرُ جَميعًا أَفَلَم يَا۟يـَٔسِ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا أَن لَو يَشاءُ اللَّهُ لَهَدَى النّاسَ جَميعًا وَلا يَزالُ الَّذينَ كَفَروا تُصيبُهُم بِما صَنَعوا قارِعَةٌ أَو تَحُلُّ قَريبًا مِن دارِهِم حَتّىٰ يَأتِىَ وَعدُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُخلِفُ الميعادَSuffering is good for awareness of the soul to return to GOD Alone for connection and protection.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
TYPE 2.. totally human and Jinn responsible for action... God is not propeller... Only difference it happened within the knowledge of God... That's will..
Ok. You have given examples, and I have given examples. TYPE 2 is what you seem to believe. So tell me how you view this
You cannot will anything except if God also Wills, the Lord of the worlds (8129)
Clearly, the human and the Jinn cannot do anything, except if God also Wills. Right? So it's not just that it's within the knowledge of God. There's a clear difference between the Will of God and the Knowledge of God. God Knows that if x happens to me, I will choose y. God never brings about x. God never Wills x, because God doesn't Want me to do/choose y.
God Knew that Satan would disobey, and that Adam would then follow Satan is disobedience if x happened. God brought x about. God Willed this to happen. Satan could not have willed to disobey God, except if God also Willed it. Again look at 8129. Could Satan have willed to disobey God without God also Willing it? Again, to Know something, is not to Will something. So, did God misguide Satan or not? Did God Will for Satan do disobey God or not?
For you God is evil... Coz if you claim in this way.. God created Iblees and made him
Iblees would have to choose to be evil for Iblees to be evil. God created Iblees knowing what Iblees would choose. God chose for Iblees to choose to be evil. God is not blameworthy of Iblees being evil. Only the one that chooses to be evil is responsible for being evil. Iblees chose to be evil. God did not choose for Iblees. There's a difference between God choosing what Iblees chooses, and God choosing for Iblees. If God did not want Iblees to be evil, God would not have created him at all. If God did not want Iblees to misguide Adam, God would not have exposed him to Adam. Nothing is done independently of God's Will.
So iblees didn't react in his freewill but God made him as bait... That's not God.. God is truth and pure..
You're not understanding what I'm saying. If Iblees had no choice in the matter, then Iblees is not evil. Iblees is not some programmed robot with no self-awareness. Iblees chose to be evil. God did not choose in place of Iblees, God chose what Iblees himself would choose. As in God Knew that if x happened Iblees would choose y, and if p happened Iblees would choose q. God Willed/Chose for x to happen and did not Will for p to happen. Iblees free-willingly chose y. The subject that chose to be evil, is evil. God did not Will Itself, to be evil. God Willed Iblees will in such a manner that constitutes Iblees being evil. God Wanted/Willed this to happen. God is responsible for the whole affair. God chose for Iblees to be created, and chose for Iblees to choose to misguide Adam. God gave Iblees respite. God mislead Iblees. If God did not give Iblees respite, Iblees would not be destined for Hell. Iblees would not have mislead Adam. Again, God Willed Iblees to will x. God did not program Iblees to do x, nor did God choose in place of Iblees. Iblees himself chose.
He WANTED Iblees to disobey Him in the first place, then blame Iblees for not obeying His command... What nonsense?
Did God misguide Iblees? Yes or no? Could Iblees have willed anything with God also Willing it? Yes or no? Do not forget, to know something is not the same as willing something. God Knew/Knows what Iblees reveals and hides. God Knew that If x happens, Iblees would do y. God made x happen. God Willed Iblees to choose y.
It is not God wanted.. God is innocent from what His creatures choose to do out of freewill.. God could have stopped Iblees disobeying His command.. But why should He stop while He has given freewill... He is not to change the way He created.. From iblees all issues crept up.. right... So.. Ibkees was not acting on his own but God wanted... So.. God is ruling an evil world creating evil in His own... That's impossible... God doesn't have any such attributes....
Are you saying that someone can will something without God also Willing it? This contradicts the Quran (8129). It also contradicts pure reason, but that's a different discussion.
Will of God has a massive meaning... Don't confuse it by restricting it to negative aspects...
I am not restricting anything. You are restricting the semantic or meaning of Will in 8129 in a contradictory manner. As in, you deny that will means will, in 8129. You seem to think that will actually means know in 8129. A triangle is not a square. To know something is not the same as to will something.
Then comes actions of Human and Jinns... God created us but God didn't create our character... Character we created
God Willed/Wills that we choose between good and evil. We only choose between good and evil because God Wants it this way.
1311 As if he has followers in his presence and behind him guarding him from God's command! God is not to change what is in a people until they change what is within themselves.
853 That is because God was not to change any blessing He bestowed upon a people, unless they change what is in themselves. God is Hearer, Knowledgeable.
2286 God does not impose a person beyond its capacity. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns...
Iblees wanted respite. Iblees wanted to disobey God. It was not beyond the capacity of Iblees and his free-will to become so evil, that it would be perfection for him to go to Hell. Again, I am not saying that God chose for Iblees. I am saying that God chose for Iblees to choose what he chose. Iblees chose Iblees to be evil. Iblees wanted/chose God to be evil too (by wanting God to prefer him over Adam when Adam was objectively better and sincerer to God than him), but God did not want God to be evil. But God did Want Iblees to be evil. Iblees wanted Iblees to be evil. Again, God did not choose instead of Iblees.
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It is not what you or I prefer, it is what is observable and provable. People have weful things hapenning to them even when they do not deserve it
And how do you plan on observing and proving what the soul of the orphan or the rape victim is like? You are not Omniscient. Even the angels that had the ability to tell Adam would cause bloodshed and corruption lacked the knowledge that God had. If you do not know their souls (what they reveal and what they hid), how can you claim they did not deserve to be raped or become orphans? I can claim that they deserved it because I can prove by way of pure reason, that God/Existence Is Perfect. There are things that are open to interpretation (such as what you see in a movie, or an event you observe in real life...such as a woman being raped) and there are things that are clear and not open to interpretation. The latter are matters of pure reason. They include truths such as triangles having three sides and Existence Being Perfect. So I have my proof which is rooted in pure reason and does not assume omniscience about the souls that have been raped or have become orphans. Where is your proof?
Do you not see that what you say both assumes omniscience and calls God imperfect at the same time? How can God be Perfect, if God allows/Wills people who do not deserve to suffer, to suffer? 8129 says you cannot will anything except if it is also Willed by God. Why do you ignore this verse?
And I did not call you anything, wht i did call things was certain things you keep saying that if somebody suffers something even if he r she has done nothing to earn it, that according to you that would prove existence is imperfect.
You implied it clearly enough. In any case, how do you not see that if one person in existence gets what they don't deserve (even if it's an atom's weight), that existence is imperfect?
Still you have again not considered that you are looking at existnce in segmented pieces and not in the whole. I will say it again and leave it there. Existence is everything that has existed, exists or will exist and it is perfect becuse God will reward thos who learn and suffer with patience whatever undeserved or deserved comes to them. The whole of existence is perfect, not any segment of it. It is as if you read a novel and choose to consider the novel only art of it, the most horrible part and say that it is a horrible novel.
I am looking at the whole. That's why I said, all things considered, the woman who was raped, deserved to be raped. It was perfection for her to be raped. In a perfect existence, perfection is omnipresent. You seem to have this view that God would allow/Will someone to suffer without that someone committing any evil whatsoever. If this is your view, your view is grossly blasphemous. First you become evil, then God punishes you when it's Perfection for God to do so. It's never Perfection for you to be 0 in terms of evilness, yet God Wills that you get raped against your will. God does not Will an innocent child or woman to be raped, and then justify this occurrence by giving the child or woman paradise. If the man, woman, or child suffer in any way shape or form (whether it's by being raped, oppressed, or losing their playstation) it was because they were sufficiently evil to deserve their suffering. This is not to say they will never enter Heaven. If they repent and reform, decide good over evil, then of course, they have raced towards Forgiveness and Mercy. They have sincerely and genuinely sought Forgiveness and Mercy, and God Being Perfect, Grants Forgiveness and Mercy to the sincerely repentant. To the ones sincerely seeking Forgiveness and Mercy. God Gave paradise, the woman wronged God (as did the man), but since God does not allow Itself to be wronged, the woman suffered loss. The woman wronged herself. If God does not Forgive her and have Mercy on her, she will be of the losers.
Contrast my view of God (which I have reached by way of God, pure reason, and Quran) with your view of God (which contradicts both pure reason and the Quran). Decide how you want to look at or treat God. I suggest that you treat God/Existence as though It Is Perfect (because that's what pure reason dictates...just as it dictates triangles have three sides). It's not just childish for you to do otherwise. For you to do otherwise, is for you to be unfair to God. It is perhaps easier to forgive a child than it is to forgive an adult. I don't think you want to be evil or unfair to anyone. It's certainly not in your best interest. So try hard to be fair to everyone (including God/Existence...the wholly innocent of evil/injustice).
Peace
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GOD created the weather elements for us ,the sun ,fire...etc Can we say,when these things harm/kill GOD created "evil"? So why does extreme heat,cold ,fire,extreme weather harm/kill people?
Suffering ,oppression,injustice occur all over the earth in all ages why?Peace good logic
So We said, "O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship.
There you will not go hungry nor need clothes. There you will not go thirsty nor suffer from heat." (20117-119)But the devil whispered to him, he said "O Adam, shall I lead you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not waste away?" (20120)
So they both ate from it, and their evil (س و أ) became apparent to them, and they began to place leaves on themselves from the paradise. Adam had disobeyed his Lord, and had gone astray. (20121)
Adam's evil was apparent to God before it was apparent to itself. Perhaps this would have been remedied if Satan prostrated. But both Satan refused to prostrate (therefore disobeying God), and Adam failed to treat Satan as his enemy and not eat from the tree (therefore disobeying God). God bless the angels that were not unappreciative. Obviously, God already Blessed the angels.
Once Adam ate from the tree, Adam's evil became apparent to itself.
It said, "Descend from this, all of you, for you are enemies to one another. So, when My guidance comes to you; then, whoever follows My guidance, he will not go astray nor suffer." (20123)
So, our disobedience to God is why we suffer. Our lack of acknowledgement and our lack of appreciation is why we suffer. We suffer because we are not wholly innocent of evil. We suffer because we deserve it.
God Save us from all distresses. And suffering is one way we can turn to God. You can 'suffer' willingly, or you can suffer unwillingly. I'm not sure that the former constitutes genuine suffering. The man who suffers during a workout, is not really suffering in my opinion. A lack of belief in what he is doing on his part would of course lead him to suffer more during his workout, or even make him fail to achieve as much gains from his workout. Working out is a trivial matter in comparison to repenting and reforming and racing towards Forgiveness and Mercy. But, I think the same principle applies. Patience and strive. Creativity perhaps. Reason and a genuine sense of good. Humility towards God such that you beg God for goodness, Forgiveness, and Mercy. To me, begging people for something seems pathetic. But to not beg God is foolish, unappreciative, self-righteous. To beg God for anything other than what is best for oneself (of which only God truly Knows), such as winning the lottery, or passing a test, or anything else, is also unwise.
They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast Forgiveness. It has been fully aware of you since It initiated you from the earth, and while you were fetuses in your mothers' wombs. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; It is fully aware of the righteous. (5332)
We suffer because we are not pure. We are not wholly innocent of evil. We deserve our suffering. May God Forgive and us and have Mercy on us.