I am going to apostate
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Peace Anoush..
Quran is not a list of law book.. God has never discouraged human making their own law.. God has given knowledge to human to be ethical... Quran was revealed in Arabic and to warn the Mother of cities and surrounded area...Peace jkhan,
indeed that was not my point, Qur'an is not a book of laws, though it contains some legal provisions.
Qur'an was a series of preaching advocating for the need of ethical laws, and by "ethical" it meant divine, and warning the people about the risk of supersessionism (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism) if they fail to adopt ethical laws.
And to argue for the risk of supersessionism, Qur'an messenger reminds the tales of Noah, Shuaib, Moses, etc. that his people were supposed to already know.
On this general mainline narrative in Qur'an preaching, I agree, and this is where I say Qur'an is an important text to understand.
But Qur'an also contains some legal provisions, because after all, if you (the messenger for that matter) speak all the time on the need for ethical laws but never mention anything about the shape they should have, then you are speaking in the void.
Firstly, those legal provisions, a lot of them in Qur'an ruling about sexuality, are largely outdated by our human rights standards nowadays.
Secondly, legals nowadays consider there is a hierarchy of laws, e.g. constitutional laws are above criminal laws.
This principle of a hierarchy of laws does not exist in Qur'an.On those points, Qur'an is largely outdated today.
Your concern of corporal punishment... Public Laws (concerned with physical punishment) can be executed if the rule of the nation is in the hands of believers.. So.. With the tone of Quran we may deduce that authority was gradually gained by then believers.. So setting such laws when instructed in the Quran is mandatory, otherwise they rejected the verse...For them God preferred God set Law instead they themselves create.. So they practiced them.. So such laws are very much restricted to them..coz it is their nation and the messenger also with them.. But God never expects by these verses that whole world follow the same.. Coz in the whole world believers are not ruling and never will be... But, Anoush the law God assigned is not wrong if any nation wants to implement... That could be the best of laws.. It is never against humanity ...
if you say that God's Law is outdated and against human rights then you directly and indirectly claim that God assigned laws to an ancient community which were against human right... It is only our thoughts that makes us feel so.. True believer cannot claim so..
That's why I said that laws in Qur'an are not God's laws and Qur'an was not a book dictated by God.
The laws were those compatible with the mindset of their time.
There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and likewise some of our laws will look barbaric to our descents. That's life.The problem is in the failure to recognize that mindsets have changed and some laws are not acceptable anymore.
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Peace jkhan,
indeed that was not my point, Qur'an is not a book of laws, though it contains some legal provisions.
Qur'an was a series of preaching advocating for the need of ethical laws, and by "ethical" it meant divine, and warning the people about the risk of supersessionism (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism) if they fail to adopt ethical laws.
And to argue for the risk of supersessionism, Qur'an messenger reminds the tales of Noah, Shuaib, Moses, etc. that his people were supposed to already know.
On this general mainline narrative in Qur'an preaching, I agree, and this is where I say Qur'an is an important text to understand.
But Qur'an also contains some legal provisions, because after all, if you (the messenger for that matter) speak all the time on the need for ethical laws but never mention anything about the shape they should have, then you are speaking in the void.
Firstly, those legal provisions, a lot of them in Qur'an ruling about sexuality, are largely outdated by our human rights standards nowadays.
Secondly, legals nowadays consider there is a hierarchy of laws, e.g. constitutional laws are above criminal laws.
This principle of a hierarchy of laws does not exist in Qur'an.On those points, Qur'an is largely outdated today.
That's why I said that laws in Qur'an are not God's laws and Qur'an was not a book dictated by God.
The laws were those compatible with the mindset of their time.
There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and likewise some of our laws will look barbaric to our descents. That's life.The problem is in the failure to recognize that mindsets have changed and some laws are not acceptable anymore.
Leave Anoush..
Do you believe in your natural instincts that everything is created? If No, you may express your view as you stated.. But if you believe in God and His creation then I am afraid this won't be the way to understand Quran...
God says He has furnished all examples... So that can only be for salvation.. If we look for examples for our choices we won't find..
God Himself not interested to spoon feed his creatures while already He has created us with brain and heart and eyes and ears etc with freedom of choice...
That's why when Moses was ordered to slaughter a cow God didn't inform any further details.. God's first command was just slaughter a cow.. God left Musa or people to choose whatever of their preference.. But, they split hair in stubbornness... 267-71
Quran has guidance.. seek it.. You won't find everything of your live's necessity in Quran.. That's so eccentric if anyone request so... If God explained everything you will only be in trouble/ difficulties without being able to implement them(read 5101) ... Note that.. But if God wanted He would have sent book/s detailing each and every thing what we have to do and not to do... That's not what God wanted.. What He sent down by sending messengers to all nations is more than enough for salvation...May God guide you and me and all believers for our salvation .. The one who created the heavens and earth knows to constitute laws...
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Leave Anoush..
Do you believe in your natural instincts that everything is created? If No, you may express your view as you stated.. But if you believe in God and His creation then I am afraid this won't be the way to understand Quran...
I understand Qur'an the same way than people of the ancient times, before Qur'an, were taught how to read the Scriptures.
Once you learn how to read the Scriptures, it is obvious how Qur'an uses the same codes.That's why when Moses was ordered to slaughter a cow God didn't inform any further details.. God's first command was just slaughter a cow.. God left Musa or people to choose whatever of their preference.. But, they split hair in stubbornness... 267-71
This is how traditional Islam interprets this story in tafsirs explaining that Children of Israel asked unnecessary questions to the prophets without readily following any commandment from God. Any cow as initially requested would have been sufficient, but since they made the matter more difficult, God made it even more difficult for them.
But this is not the correct meaning of this story.
The story of "para aduma", the red heifer (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heifer) first appears in the Book of Numbers chapter 19.
Ancient Jews had troubles understanding the story of the red heifer in the Book of Numbers, so it is likely its interpretation has varied across centuries.
In the Book of Numbers there is no discussing between Moses and his people about how to choose the cow, so this discussion is an elaboration of the author of surah 2, based on his own understanding of the story.
Likewise, that a part of the cow is able to resurrect a dead (verse 273) is not in the Book of Numbers to my best knowledge. Again this is a specific elaboration from the author of Qur'an, maybe based on some prior interpretations.There are many symbols hidden in the story of the red heifer, both in the Book of Numbers and in Qur'an.
As I mentioned above, verse 273 states that a part of the sacrificed cow had to be used for resurrecting a dead person.
This is the sign that the cow in this story is actually a messianic symbol, and actually, the story of the cow in Qur'an plays on the symbolism that the sacrificed cow prefigures the Messiah.The topic of the Messiah in Qur'an is a bit complicated for various reasons.
One is that the figure of the Messiah is usually associated to Jesus, hence it is not obvious to understand what the Messiah would have to do with Moses here.
Next Qur'an actually despises messianism and when speaking of Isa al-Masih (supposed to be read as Jesus the Messiah), actually trivializes the expression al-Masih, and renders it void of its normal content.Despite this, Qur'an heavily plays on Messianic topics end of times, resurrection, height of the ordeal, supersessionism, eschatological inversion (eschatological inversion in Judaism means that the end of time the pagans enter the Alliance with God, and Jews might be kicked out of it).
In ancient Judaism, as can be evidenced in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the Gospels, in the Talmud, in the Midrash, a lot of discussions took place among scholars about the signs of the coming of the Messiah and the advent of the messianic era, and those discussions very often used a symbolic language.
Also the coming of the Messiah was supposed to coincide with the end of times.
In the ancient Jewish thought, end of times was supposed to mean height of the ordeal, entry of the pagans into the Alliance with God, restoring the Temple, relied of the burden of the Law.Basically there were two groups those who wanted the end of times and the messianic era to come as soon as possible and those who wanted the end of times to come as latest as possible.
The story of the cow in Qur'an takes place after verse 265 which speaks about those who transgressed the Sabbath.
But transgressing the Sabbath has nothing to do with lightening a fire on a Saturday.
Transgressing the Sabbath is an expression that means premature declaration of the end of time.In the Gospels, when Jesus is reproached by rabbis to transgress the Sabbath by curing people on Saturday, it means that he didn't wait for the 8th day.
This is a metaphor to reproach rabbis to not acknowledge that the end of times (in the spirit of the Gospels) and a new era have come.
Indeed, for some Jews, and Rabbinic scholars in particular, there is the fear that having the pagans entered into the Alliance with God will dilute the Jewish identity and singularity, thus they expressed delaying arguments to deny this possibility.
For other scholars, denying the possibility of the messianic era basically meant that pagans were banned from salvation, and that Israel failed in its divine mission to be the light of the Nations.So in verse 265, Qur'an blames those who prematurely declare the end of times and especially spread chaos (fassad) in order to argue that we are the height of the ordeal. (Think of some terrorist movements who use similar arguments today).
But in verses 267 to 273, on the contrary, Qur'an blames those who deny that the end of times has come when it is time and use dilatory arguments for denying that.
This is the meaning of the story of the cow in Qur'an.
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I understand Qur'an the same way than people of the ancient times, before Qur'an, were taught how to read the Scriptures.
Once you learn how to read the Scriptures, it is obvious how Qur'an uses the same codes.This is how traditional Islam interprets this story in tafsirs explaining that Children of Israel asked unnecessary questions to the prophets without readily following any commandment from God. Any cow as initially requested would have been sufficient, but since they made the matter more difficult, God made it even more difficult for them.
But this is not the correct meaning of this story.
The story of "para aduma", the red heifer (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heifer) first appears in the Book of Numbers chapter 19.
Ancient Jews had troubles understanding the story of the red heifer in the Book of Numbers, so it is likely its interpretation has varied across centuries.
In the Book of Numbers there is no discussing between Moses and his people about how to choose the cow, so this discussion is an elaboration of the author of surah 2, based on his own understanding of the story.
Likewise, that a part of the cow is able to resurrect a dead (verse 273) is not in the Book of Numbers to my best knowledge. Again this is a specific elaboration from the author of Qur'an, maybe based on some prior interpretations.There are many symbols hidden in the story of the red heifer, both in the Book of Numbers and in Qur'an.
As I mentioned above, verse 273 states that a part of the sacrificed cow had to be used for resurrecting a dead person.
This is the sign that the cow in this story is actually a messianic symbol, and actually, the story of the cow in Qur'an plays on the symbolism that the sacrificed cow prefigures the Messiah.The topic of the Messiah in Qur'an is a bit complicated for various reasons.
One is that the figure of the Messiah is usually associated to Jesus, hence it is not obvious to understand what the Messiah would have to do with Moses here.
Next Qur'an actually despises messianism and when speaking of Isa al-Masih (supposed to be read as Jesus the Messiah), actually trivializes the expression al-Masih, and renders it void of its normal content.Despite this, Qur'an heavily plays on Messianic topics end of times, resurrection, height of the ordeal, supersessionism, eschatological inversion (eschatological inversion in Judaism means that the end of time the pagans enter the Alliance with God, and Jews might be kicked out of it).
In ancient Judaism, as can be evidenced in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the Gospels, in the Talmud, in the Midrash, a lot of discussions took place among scholars about the signs of the coming of the Messiah and the advent of the messianic era, and those discussions very often used a symbolic language.
Also the coming of the Messiah was supposed to coincide with the end of times.
In the ancient Jewish thought, end of times was supposed to mean height of the ordeal, entry of the pagans into the Alliance with God, restoring the Temple, relied of the burden of the Law.Basically there were two groups those who wanted the end of times and the messianic era to come as soon as possible and those who wanted the end of times to come as latest as possible.
The story of the cow in Qur'an takes place after verse 265 which speaks about those who transgressed the Sabbath.
But transgressing the Sabbath has nothing to do with lightening a fire on a Saturday.
Transgressing the Sabbath is an expression that means premature declaration of the end of time.In the Gospels, when Jesus is reproached by rabbis to transgress the Sabbath by curing people on Saturday, it means that he didn't wait for the 8th day.
This is a metaphor to reproach rabbis to not acknowledge that the end of times (in the spirit of the Gospels) and a new era have come.
Indeed, for some Jews, and Rabbinic scholars in particular, there is the fear that having the pagans entered into the Alliance with God will dilute the Jewish identity and singularity, thus they expressed delaying arguments to deny this possibility.
For other scholars, denying the possibility of the messianic era basically meant that pagans were banned from salvation, and that Israel failed in its divine mission to be the light of the Nations.So in verse 265, Qur'an blames those who prematurely declare the end of times and especially spread chaos (fassad) in order to argue that we are the height of the ordeal. (Think of some terrorist movements who use similar arguments today).
But in verses 267 to 273, on the contrary, Qur'an blames those who deny that the end of times has come when it is time and use dilatory arguments for denying that.
This is the meaning of the story of the cow in Qur'an.
Peace...
Thank you for your long elaboration on verses 267 on wards..But dude elaboration of yours or conventional people's understanding is not what I meant by presenting that example.. I meant The intent of God / command of God. If God wanted to give complete explanation in the first place, He would have furnished.. No.. Musa took the verse to his community and they mockingly request further and further further clarify while Musa says Lord commanded .
Musa said in the first place "do what your Lord commanded" so command is done by God and thsts sufficient to slaughter a cow.. Had they slaughtered the cow with initial explanation of command that would have worked out for what purpose the slaughter took place(i didn't ask from you the purpose of slaughter and jews story)5101 You didn't give your thought..
Likewise God has revealed what He intended to reveal.. That's Quran.. Looking for more away from Quran is most identical to above two verses.. Complication God didn't prefer... For example God says do charity... If questions can I do charity of my one kidney or one eye or one leg since one is enough for me... That's complication... God says yes do charity from what you have excess to you.. If having organs of human being are excess to one, God wouldn't have created in the first place.. So it's not something to choose for charity...
Asking questions beyond what God has clarified is meaningless.. -
But dude elaboration of yours or conventional people's understanding is not what I meant by presenting that example.. (...) Had they slaughtered the cow with initial explanation of command that would have worked out for what purpose the slaughter took place(i didn't ask from you the purpose of slaughter and jews story)
Peace jkhan,
I gave you this lengthy explanation because you missed the purpose of the story of the cow and thus you draw erroneous lessons from it.
Again, it is not a story about people failing to obey God's or messengers' commands, or asking too many questions about those commands.It is a story about failing to acknowledge that the end of times, a new era then, has come.
(By the way, the story of the cow in surah 2 has close meaning as the story of Mariam in surah 19 when she said "How can I have a boy when no man has been with me; and I have never been unchaste?"So in short, this story of the cow comforts my viewpoint, not yours.
So when I say that we are now in a new era w.r.t. Qur'an and that we must move forward from it, I'm actually in a similar position as Moses and you are in the position of his people who create difficulties to acknowledge that.
See ?Regarding verse 5101 in my opinion it is unrelated to our discussion.
It doesn't mean that we should not ask questions.It means there exist questions for which we are not always ready to accept the answer, and we must wait until we are psychologically ready to listen to their answer.
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Peace jkhan,
I gave you this lengthy explanation because you missed the purpose of the story of the cow and thus you draw erroneous lessons from it.
Again, it is not a story about people failing to obey God's or messengers' commands, or asking too many questions about those commands.It is a story about failing to acknowledge that the end of times, a new era then, has come.
(By the way, the story of the cow in surah 2 has close meaning as the story of Mariam in surah 19 when she said "How can I have a boy when no man has been with me; and I have never been unchaste?"So in short, this story of the cow comforts my viewpoint, not yours.
So when I say that we are now in a new era w.r.t. Qur'an and that we must move forward from it, I'm actually in a similar position as Moses and you are in the position of his people who create difficulties to acknowledge that.
See ?Regarding verse 5101 in my opinion it is unrelated to our discussion.
It doesn't mean that we should not ask questions.It means there exist questions for which we are not always ready to accept the answer, and we must wait until we are psychologically ready to listen to their answer.
Green... That's fine.. Coz you must accept what you understand...
Blue... Move forward from Quran.. It is your choice...
Sunnah of Allah will never change though generation after generation gone by and we live in a modern era... There must be a reason why God preserved Quran.. If future people can move forward from it...
Keep learning keep researching... Nothing is over until one get confirmation on anything and be firm on It ..until then path is open.. God bless you -
Sunnah of Allah will never change though generation after generation gone by and we live in a modern era... There must be a reason why God preserved Quran.. If future people can move forward from it...
If you have this verse in mind
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder (dhikr), and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
then it doesn't say God will preserve Qur'an.
It says that God will preserve the dhikr after having sent it down.
The dhikr is not Qur'an, at least not as text.
Again, "dhikr" is a concept from ancient Jewish and early Christian beliefs that refers to the remembrance of God covenant and fulfillment of the promise of salvation.
So this verse actually says that God will keep His promise of salvation, not that He will keep Qur'an as text.
Granted, somehow Qur'an advocates it revived that "dhikr" through this revelation / sending down.
But confusion between both, Qur'an and dhikr, has led people to make of it a point of honor to know Qur'an by heart or to organize singing contests of Qur'an across centuries, leading to a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, while the actual dhikr, i.e. the true remembrance of the promise of salvation, has been forgotten.
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If you have this verse in mind
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder (dhikr), and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
then it doesn't say God will preserve Qur'an.
It says that God will preserve the dhikr after having sent it down.
The dhikr is not Qur'an, at least not as text.
Again, "dhikr" is a concept from ancient Jewish and early Christian beliefs that refers to the remembrance of God covenant and fulfillment of the promise of salvation.
So this verse actually says that God will keep His promise of salvation, not that He will keep Qur'an as text.
Granted, somehow Qur'an advocates it revived that "dhikr" through this revelation / sending down.
But confusion between both, Qur'an and dhikr, has led people to make of it a point of honor to know Qur'an by heart or to organize singing contests of Qur'an across centuries, leading to a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, while the actual dhikr, i.e. the true remembrance of the promise of salvation, has been forgotten.
Peace..
In short, this Dhikr comforts my viewpoint and not yours... Lol
Dude. That's a different a different topic and if you want you may open new topic or go through some old topics already discussed so that you may get what it is probably... Or you can remain where you are..
Al Dhikr for me is Quran .... I don't like to bring any proof to substantiate my claim though I know coz I don't like to debate that in this topic..
God bless you.. -
I dont even know in which category i fall. Quranism doesn't make sense to me. Neither does hadiths. While i fully believe that hadiths are anti Qur'an, this Quran alone is not doing it for me. I am not able to find any firm ground here. There is no stability in Quranism. Yall are open to follow any interpretation of Quran and that is i guess is the negative point of this whole movement. I became Ahle Quran to learn the laws of Allah correctly, but this has distorted my faith more than ever. I feel so disconnected from Allah, my faith is totally gone, it's like I know God exists but my belief in it is waning. What do i do, i feel like I am losing my mind. I am so confused and nothing is making sense to it. I feel like I am about to apostate. I read Quran but it doesn't do anything for me. I think the only thing that is stopping me is the fear of hell and say of Judgement. Can yall just tell me if i become a deist or monotheist but donot follow any religion ( not even Islam and Quran ) will i go to hell according to Quran ? I am just tired of not finding any answer from Quran. I just feel like the true religion of God should have a clear message that should resonate with the whole mankind. Quran doesn't calls to my soul with some of its verses. I don't get why would God hate any lgbtq+ ( and i am not here to start any discussion on it, on my last post already someone judged me for it and made me feel that i am looking for excuses to transgress against Quran ), i just dont understand it. Yeah we can use the argument that Allah is using it for test then why not make every person a homosexual and then test them ? Why is Allah unfair to some. Why would Allah call himself fair and just and do something like this.
Then comes the fact that Quran is just not at all clear whether we have to take it literally or not. Again my issue is, is there any set of laws given by Allah or not ?
If Allah is clear in his words why most of the messages are unclear .What is salat ?
Is alcohol forbidden ?
Is hajj obligatory or not ?
Does god forbid all kind of sex except penis-vagina sex or does all kinds of sexual act is permissible between husband and wife.
Is abortion is haram or is it permissible ?
Is the story of Lut forbidding homosexuality or is it condemning raping and oppression ?
Quran tells you to wear hijab and abaya too or Quran only tells you to lower the garments and cover the bosom ?These are not the only cases where yall disagree with each other. Quranism has confused me more than the hadiths because at least it was apparent that a man made book would be unclear and full of contradictions but why is that we cannot agree at anything when it comes to the book of God ? I am one step away from having a full mental breakdown. The stress is weighing down on me and affecting me physically, mentally and emotionally. I came to this forum to find answers. I am just left with more confusion and questions. I am tired of following something which doesn't makes sense to me. I love God, i believe in him, i just don't believe anymore that Quran is the answer for me. It is my fear of judgement day only that has been keeping me from finally accepting myself as deist and leaving behind all the religion. I just want to know whether a deist is also considered a believer according to Quran, or am I disbeliever for abandoning Quran but still believing in God ?
It doesn't matter if you're reading the Quran or not. What matters is that you are sincere to God. Sincere to a Perfect Existence. Sincere to what you genuinely believe is good. If you don't understand the Quran, don't uphold it. If something good compels you to try to understand it, then respond and try to understand it. If something good compels you to give up on it, then give up on it. Just don't lose sight of reason and a genuine sense of good. You answer to God. God gave you reason and a genuine sense of good. To go against them, is to be unreasonable and evil.
The Quran is a gift. It boosts and raises reverence. It has done more for me than just boost reverence (which is an immense gift in itself). It is the most valuable book I have ever read. If you can draw benefit from it, then you absolutely should. If you can't, then don't try and force anything.
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I already mentioned two in my original post on this thread. One on human embryology and the other on geography. I have only referred him to Google in a bid to get him see there are alternative diverse and contradicting views on the infallibility of Qur'an.
I did try search on google "errors in the qur'an" and I got a lot of links.
It would be helpful if you can simply give the URL that you yourself are convinced that those are errors in Quran (one on human embryology and the other on geography). If the URL is a youtube video and contains a lot of claims, then help by mentioning starting time of the sections that you are convinced (unless you are convinced that all of the claims in the video are true errors in Quran).