I am going to apostate
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Huh ? What's the point of reading Quran if I'm not going to understand it ? I dont even know arabic ( i know how to read it but I don't understand it's meaning ) So i should just recite Quran without knowing what I am even reciting?
You must read translations with "no interpretation". No human commentary...
Only translations...
Peace
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salam sania haque
hope you are well
please do NOT abandon the Quran ... it is the truth from The God
keep your faith please this is primordial ! if you have issues we are here to help
if you have any specific questions or issues you need help with please let us know issue by issue and The God willing we will help you
The God is the One who gives us knoweldge ask Him to please give you knowledge and help you (He even tells us in the Quran to ask Him for knowledge)
peace )
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Well... Hi yall. More or less I have gotten the same reply from everyone that it should be me who should be striving to get my own answers. I guess no one can tell us what's wrong or what's right except Allah. I am still not sure how i am going to progress but i think it would be unfair to me if I give up without trying. Some of yall are right that the path to Allah and his guidance wouldn't be easy, we have to overcome all hardships. I was scrolling through Instagram when I came across a verse from Quran that goes something like this " Do people think that they will be let go merely by saying “We believe,” and that they will not be tested " ( i dont know from which surah it is ) but this was so eye opening for me. I feel like this was my sign and push from my creator that I shouldn't give up without trying. I am still very much afraid but i dont wanna go down without giving it at least one shot. Thank yall for your kind words and pushing me towards the right path. I hope whatever Allah has planned for me it's in favour of me
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Salam Sania,
Do not move your tongue with it to hasten it.
It is for Us to gather it into its Quran.
Thus, when We read it, you shall follow such a Quran.
Then it is for Us to explain it.
Nay, but you love instant results,You are blessed to have realized the truth about sahih hadiths books early (I was much older than you when I realized it - I kind of envy you in this regard).
Just be patient and keep studying it. 10-20 years in the future you might realize that indeed Quran is descended in stages slowly and it is done this way for a reason sun
Wassalam,
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What is salat ?
Salam Sania,
Maybe as starting point, let's take a look at one verse in Quran that mentions salat.
And no bearer may carry the burden of another. And if one who is weighed down by his load calls on another to carry it, no part of it may be carried, even if it were a relative. You will only be able to warn those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, and they AQAMU SALAT. And whoever contributes, is contributing for himself. And to God is the final destiny.
In 3518, God mentions that those who can be warned are only those who are concerned with their Lord AND they maintain/keep up/establish/holding SALAT. So those who are not maintaining/keeping up/establishing/holding SALAT, giving warning to them does not have any effect at all.
Now let's look at people around us
- We can find people who were previously atheist who didn't believe in God and now become believers. So these people definitely can be warned that God exists and that we will be responsible for our deeds in this world. Since they can be warned, they must have done AQAMU SALAT.
- We can find people who were previously christians who worshiped Jesus and now become believers. So these people definitely can be warned that God cannot have son and Jesus is God's messenger (not God himself). Since they can be warned, they must have done AQAMU SALAT.
Did those people do what Sunnis are calling SALAT when they were still atheist and christian?
All right, I guess this is enough for starting point )
Wassalam,
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Salam Sania,
Do not move your tongue with it to hasten it.
It is for Us to gather it into its Quran.
Thus, when We read it, you shall follow such a Quran.
Then it is for Us to explain it.
Nay, but you love instant results,You are blessed to have realized the truth about sahih hadiths books early (I was much older than you when I realized it - I kind of envy you in this regard).
Just be patient and keep studying it. 10-20 years in the future you might realize that indeed Quran is descended in stages slowly and it is done this way for a reason sun
Wassalam,
I think all the credit goes to romance novels I was hooked, addicted and I just couldn't get rid of my reading addiction. It was my first step towards questioning the mullah. And well I was also exposed to all the things in those novels that the mainstream sectarian considered taboo and for few months i was disgusted too and then I started questioning why were they considered taboo. For many years i was searching up hadiths upon hadiths to study them and one thing was clear that hadiths came in pairs. For every hadith prohibiting something there was another hadith where the the Prophet/sahabas were being hypocrite and doing the same thing they prohibited. I never had problem rejecting the hadiths because it was my own fault that I never studied the Quran. If I had studied Quran from the starting i wouldn't have had wasted my time
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Salam Sania,
Maybe as starting point, let's take a look at one verse in Quran that mentions salat.
And no bearer may carry the burden of another. And if one who is weighed down by his load calls on another to carry it, no part of it may be carried, even if it were a relative. You will only be able to warn those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, and they AQAMU SALAT. And whoever contributes, is contributing for himself. And to God is the final destiny.
In 3518, God mentions that those who can be warned are only those who are concerned with their Lord AND they maintain/keep up/establish/holding SALAT. So those who are not maintaining/keeping up/establishing/holding SALAT, giving warning to them does not have any effect at all.
Now let's look at people around us
- We can find people who were previously atheist who didn't believe in God and now become believers. So these people definitely can be warned that God exists and that we will be responsible for our deeds in this world. Since they can be warned, they must have done AQAMU SALAT.
- We can find people who were previously christians who worshiped Jesus and now become believers. So these people definitely can be warned that God cannot have son and Jesus is God's messenger (not God himself). Since they can be warned, they must have done AQAMU SALAT.
Did those people do what Sunnis are calling SALAT when they were still atheist and christian?
All right, I guess this is enough for starting point
Wassalam,
As i said i have had heard both the arguments for salat and I feel like I am going to continue the ritual pray. At the end of the day, even if it's not mentioned in Quran, it is still invoking and glorifying Allah and there's no harm in it. The ritual prayers have been romanticised so much that the mainstream muslims believe it's like a direct connection between them and the God. Ngl I also used to feel like that and the fact that there's a probability that this ritual prayer is not Something Allah established makes me feel a little dejected. The idea that establishing ritual prayer is like conversing with God is very appealing. I am just very sad that tahajjud prayer is a lie ((((((((
Ohmygod tahajjud was such an assuring prayer tbh. And i used to pray it with so much faith and enthusiasm to get my duas fulfilled ( and they did come true ) Now when i pray it's not the same anymore. I feel there's a void and I am not able to pray with any faith anymore. I guess the the ritual prayer has lost its appeal since i have got to know that it could potentially be a lie -
I have few questions for you if you do not mind
Peace GL,
you have something in mind when you ask your questions, and I have something in mind when I read them, and both do not necessarily match.
So I will answer with what I have in mind.1- Who wrote(authored) Qoran and where exactly in the middle east? Please provide some kind of solid evidence ?
Who, personally, was the author of Qur'an, we, or at least I, don't know, since he did not chose to speak much of himself in Qur'an.
On the other hand, I believe that his ideas, expressed in Qur'an, are more important than who he was.Of course, the Islamic tradition has a lot of to say on him, but this was put in writing at least 150 years after the events, so it is a bit like historians of the 20th CE would write an account of Napoleon 1st from hearsay narrated by the great-great-...-great-grandsons of his acquaintances.
There could be some truth deeply buried inside this story but packaged and surrounded by a fictitious narrative.The earliest chronicles that we know are not Arabic but Armenian, Greek, Syriac, or Coptic, see http//www.christianorigins.com/islamrefs.html but the true reference is Robert Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it, from which the chronicles of this website were extracted.
(Of course, for Robert Hoyland, what those ancient chroniclers saw was emerging Islam, and on this point, I don't agree. I don't necessarily interpret those texts the same way as R. Hoyland and others do).What is intriguing is that when those texts explicitly mention a person with the name "Muhammad", we can roughly classify those texts into one of those two categories those who saw Muhammad as a warlord, and those who saw him as a teacher of the divine Law and knowledgeable in the Scriptures (i.e. the Jewish Scriptures), but never both at the same time.
It looks like there could have been two different persons in the first half of the 7th CE, a successful Arab warlord, and a successful Arab teacher of the Scriptures, and both figures merged later as a kind of trade-off among various traditions.
Where Qur'an was written is not easy to determine, but it sounds that it was in Hijaz, as the Muslim tradition states.
My argument is based on linguistic evidences, it's really long to explain, but let's do it.As noted in this forum, e.g. by Dr. Ayman Mohamed and others, there exist some divergences between Qur'anic grammar and Classical Arabic grammar, e.g. verse 2177 sabirin instead of sabirun.
Among contemporary linguists, one of the those who are reference in Arabic is Kees Versteegh who wrote a book "Arabic Language" on the origins of the Arabic language (https//books.google.fr/books?id=RiarBgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false)
According to K. Versteegh, on the eve of Islam in the 7th CE, the Arabic language was roughly divided into two major families of dialects, the western dialects, and the eastern dialects.
Western dialects included the Old Hijazi dialect, spoken in Hijaz.
Eastern dialects were mainly spoken in Iraq.Veerstegh notes that Arab grammarians wrote a lot on the western variants of Arabic and less on eastern variants. He explains this by the fact that finally Classical Arabic was build on top of eastern talks, and therefore were less in the radar of grammarians.
According to Versteegh, Qur'an Arabic seems to have initially been the one of an eastern dialect that had to be adapted for writing by scribes of Hijaz. In support of this theory, Versteegh mentions that the glottal stop ('hamza', was natural in eastern dialects but absent from western dialects.
This theory, if correct, implies that the Qur'an messenger spoke an Arabic dialect containing a glottal stop, i.e. an eastern dialect. He couldn't originate from Mecca.
In fact, this problem arose for ancient Arab grammarians, who thought to solve this issue the following way it existed an Arabic language of prestige, the one of the classical poetry, a koiné (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koin%C3%A9_language) close to Classical Arabic and including this famous glottal stop.
Then Qur'an would have been revealed in this koiné to put it at the same standard than classical poetry.But there is no historical trace of this so-called koiné before the 7th CE, and even this theory of the great classical pre-islamic poetry could be seriously challenged.
On this forum, Dr. Ayman Mohamed already expressed doubts about the existence of this classical pre-islamic poetry. At best it could have been folk songs.And on the other hand, the historian Fred Donner showed in his book Narrative of the Islamic Origins (https//books.google.fr/books/about/Narratives_of_Islamic_Origins.html?id=4GEMAQAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y) that Qur'an may very well have originated from Hijaz.
He shows that on certain occasions, hadithes use a different vocabulary from Qur'an. For instance to name a boat, Qur'an prefers the word "fulq" over "safina", whereas hadithes use the word "safina". There is even a hadith that explains that fulq means safina.Donner explains that the word "fulq" was sufficiently scarce in pre-islamic poetry to have been used only in Hijaz.
Qur'an mentions a lot of biblical figures like Noah, Moses, David or Solomon. On those figures, hadithes give a lot more details than Qur'an.
But Qur'an also mentions purely Arabic prophets, unknown from the biblical tradition Salih, Hud, Shuaib. In that case, hadithes are unable to really say more than Qur'an.By the way, all of this implies that hadithes did not originate from the same milieu, neither the same time, than Qur'an.
Based on this above, my personal conclusion is that unlike Versteegh's theory, Qur'an was written in Hijaz, by someone speaking Hijazi dialect, but its collection, shaping and review took place outside Hijaz..
This kind of conclusion is impossible within the framework of Islamic tradition and its traditional narrative, and it has far-reaching consequences, e.g. that Uthman's Qur'an is a myth.
As you can see, external considerations (early chronicles, J. Schacht on elaboration of Muslim jurisprudence, etc.), and internal linguistic considerations point to the same direction Qur'an actually was not the book of doctrine of the early Arab rulers, at least not until Abd al-Malik at the end of the 7th CE.
2- Give a brief history of the author who was a fierce opponent of the modality of this revolution?
Again, we don't know his personal history.
We can just know his ideas expressed in Qur'an.
As quoted, by Robert Hoyland in Seeing Islam as Others Saw It, the early chronicler Jacob of Edessa mentioned that the Arab kingdom was founded around 620/621 J.C. and that Arabs started to attack Palestine.
At that time, the Muhammad of the Sira did not even emigrate to Medina.Parvaneh Pourshariati, in Decline and Fall of the Sassanian Empire, showed that Arabs attacks on the Persian empire started much earlier than said by the Islamic tradition, around 627 or 628 J.C.
At that time, the Muhammad of the Sira was in difficulty in Medina. What were those Arabs doing to attack Persia instead of helping their Prophet in Medina ?Around, 620 or 621 J.C. a group of Arabs started founding a kingdom. Later Arabic papyrii of the 7th CE refer to the "era of the Arabs" (and not "hijra", and the origin date of their calendar is around 620 / 621.
Shortly after that they started attacking their neighbours.Now, put this in perspective to what I explained above, that Qur'an was not the book of doctrine of those Arabs.
What can you start to see ?
Does Qur'an mention this strong event (the foundation of an Arab kingdom) ?
If it doesn't, how could it remain silent on this event ?And if it does, then how does it speak of it ?
This is where you need to learn how to decode the "language" of Qur'an and this is where learning the ancient Jewish "language" of the Scriptures is the key (and here, I don't mean Hebrew here but the metaphors and concepts of the ancient Jewish thought).
On those times, the clash of the two biggest empires of the world, Byzantium and Persia and their collapsing was seen as the coming of the end of times, and the foundation of a new kingdom as a new creation.
Read for example the Apocalypse of Zerubbabel on the take of Jerusalem in 614 J.C. by the Persians (https//pages.uncc.edu/john-reeves/research-projects/trajectories-in-near-eastern-apocalyptic/sefer-zerubbabel/).Then this new kingdom certainly needed to setup laws and justice.
This is exactly how you have to read, e.g., surah 2 in Qur'an. The story of Adam in verse 230 is not the story of the creation of mankind per se. It is the metaphor of the creation of a new kingdom on Earth.
Then the story is followed by that of Moses, struggling to establish divine laws for his restive people.And so on.
Fassad, i.e. "spreading corruption", has nothing to do with a question of morals.
In the ancient Jewish thought, advent of the world to come could only happen at the height of the ordeal (i.e. fitna in Qur'an).A drift or aberration of this idea is that if the world to come is delayed, it could be possible to hasten its coming by spreading chaos so that to be sure we are at the height of the ordeal.
Nowadays, some Islamic terrorist movements like ISIS or al-Qaida are exactly doing this trying to help the advent of the world to come by spreading chaos.
So it was likely the same in the 7th CE. Some people certainly wanted to add chaos to chaoss in the context of collapsing empires so that the new kingdom of God could come.
And it is exactly that idea that the messenger blames in Qur'an.
For instance, in verse 251, it is question of the people of Moses taking the "calf", al-3ijla.
The purpose is to make hear the verb 3ajila which means to be impatient, in the context trying to hasten the world to come.3-Was Qoran then just for that era?
Yes and no.
In the mindset of the author of Qur'an, the new creation to come was to be forever ("khalid", until it ended and a new creation was to take place instead, e.g. 21104, 2919, etc.
So basically, Qur'an was meant for the new creation to come of his era.Nowadays, the world has so much changed that legal provisions in Qur'an are completely outdated.
4- How can Qoran be correctly understood by everybody like you seem to suggest?
In the context of the 7th CE, its meaning was certainly obvious, and this explained it widely spread even though it was not imposed by the rulers.
But nowadays, you need to study a lot of history and ancient Jewish though in order to uncover its meaning. -
Thank you Anoushirvan for your detailed answers and your big effort to reply to my questions.
I can see that you have done a lot of reading of historical documents.
I have read some of these documents and I sense that we can be going back and forth to establish "the evidence" of their truthfulness. So either we take, leave them or stay with a certain doubt.
Please forgive me if I do not deal with any of them,since readers can look at them and make up their mind.I wanted to know specifically if there was evidence from your stand point on who wrote Qoran, you say, quote
"Who, personally, was the author of Qur'an, we, or at least I, don't know, since he did not chose to speak much of himself in Qur'an.
no the other hand, I believe that his ideas, expressed in Qur'an, are more important than who he was."I differ here with you because the author of Qoran has said a lot about himself. like
God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills (to be guided). As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.
This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
A.L.R. This is a scripture whose verses have been perfected, then elucidated.* It comes from a Most Wise, Most Cognizant.
This is the absolute truth.
Then you say,quote
"Again, we don't know his personal history.It seems that if we do not know much we can only be making assumption.
For me I have solid proof that Qoran is authored by GOD.. I have my proof.
Thank you for your honesty .
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salaam, Sania,
Be honest with yourself and trust yourself in the first place. Sel analyse yourself why you feel this or that way so that you do not make mistakes as your basic stand and then bear well in mind and have always present these two ayas
39.18
..who listen to all that is said, and follow the best of it it is they whom God has graced with His guidance, and it is they who are endowed with insight!
39.44
And ere that suffering comes upon you of a sudden, without your being aware , follow the most goodly that has been revealed unto you by your Sustainer,You do not have to find anything in the Qur'an ans straightforward know what it means and feel it is a failure if you do not get anything out of it. We all have a life whichusually lasts more than one second, or more than a year or more than a decade or more than many decades. If we started knowing evrything and have nothing to find out, we would not be the creaure God intended us to be. Patience is, to me, the most islamic virtue. Patience, no resignation, pursue even when one feels discouraged. It always brings great compensation. Dos nto matter if you find very little "best" to start with. Trust your own criteria. You may be wrong, but one is always coherent with oneself. At some point you will make sense. Be patient in the first place with yourself. You hav all the time in the world to work out. God knows that, God likes that, God wants it that way. And even if you are wrong in something, or in a lot, you have to start somewhere, and that womewhere is excatly where you are the time.
TAKE IT EASY. tRUST YOURSELF, GOD IS TRUST.
The fact that you are in such a quandary is a good omen. Do not exchange that need for meaning for easy world "certified" certainty. Nobody can give you that, because it is something you have to find in yourself, but you will not getting without trust and patience .
Salaam
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Patience is, to me, the most islamic virtue. Patience, no resignation, pursue even when one feels discouraged. It always brings great compensation.
peace huruf, yes evident in one of the shortest chapters.
1030 بسم bismi/in name الله l-lahi/the god الرحمن l-rahmani/the almighty الرحيم l-rahimi/the merciful
1031 والعصر wal-asri/and/by the epoch
1032 ان inna/indeed الانسن l-insana/the humankind لفي lafi/surely in خسر khusrin/loss
1033 الا illa/except الذين alladhina/the ones امنوا amanu/believes they of وعملوا waamilu/and work they of الصلحت l-salihati/the righteous وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالحق bil-haqi/in the truth وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالصبر bil-sabri/in the patience -
peace huruf, yes evident in one of the shortest chapters.
1030 بسم bismi/in name الله l-lahi/the god الرحمن l-rahmani/the almighty الرحيم l-rahimi/the merciful
1031 والعصر wal-asri/and/by the epoch
1032 ان inna/indeed الانسن l-insana/the humankind لفي lafi/surely in خسر khusrin/loss
1033 الا illa/except الذين alladhina/the ones امنوا amanu/believes they of وعملوا waamilu/and work they of الصلحت l-salihati/the righteous وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالحق bil-haqi/in the truth وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالصبر bil-sabri/in the patienceThank you for bringing up this sura. It is indeed uplinfting and comforting.
Salaam
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peace huruf, yes evident in one of the shortest chapters.
1030 بسم bismi/in name الله l-lahi/the god الرحمن l-rahmani/the almighty الرحيم l-rahimi/the merciful
1031 والعصر wal-asri/and/by the epoch
1032 ان inna/indeed الانسن l-insana/the humankind لفي lafi/surely in خسر khusrin/loss
1033 الا illa/except الذين alladhina/the ones امنوا amanu/believes they of وعملوا waamilu/and work they of الصلحت l-salihati/the righteous وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالحق bil-haqi/in the truth وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالصبر bil-sabri/in the patiencePeace NWQ...
Bit off-topic but I would like to ask opinion..
Do you take this watawasaw as Exhort /Enjoin only... But for me this watawasaw is perfectly giving sense as inherit...
One believe, and do good deeds and inherit to himself with truth and patience ...if we don't enjoin, are we at loss? Just asking... What is you or opinion and others...
If I enjoin will others take it as true, how do one know what he enjoin is right.. As we all know there is so many difference of understanding within Quran among believers.. So by enjoining they won't necessarily accept.. Would they?
Inherit for me suits perfectly.. -
Then feel free to quit. Here is the thing, the Qur'an has its limitations. In principles, it can work well to advice your life choices, but its decrees and theories on nature may seem dated and false. This is the cold harsh truth.
There is no flawless religion or scripture, atheism, deism, Islam, Christianity, every position is flawed. I too had my issues last year, and could've left Islam, but I realized that it didn't matter what I left Islam for, I was always going to have to deal with flaws.
And so at long last, I resolved to stay in Islam and just practice it to my taste. This is my advice to anyone thinking of apostasy. I don't let judgmental Muslims bully me into blindly accepting verses or interpretation that makes no sense to me. If anyone accuses me of "transgressing the Qur'an," I simply remind them of the limitations of the Qur'an, such as the passages on science that seem to falsely imply the embryo is a blood clot or that the upper atmosphere is a solid dome.
Peace... Neptin ...
I am not here to advise you or change you... But your path will take you nowhere... Unless you be certain in your way chosen.
I am talking about cold harsh truth what you have written... So literally Quran is false.. That's cold harsh truth in your view.. Can I have 10 example if you have time that prompted to say so.. Except from what you have already stated..
And emphasize on your second point.. There is no flawless scripture. Why you decided so? So you still opted to believe in deity who can't even construct a clear book of instructions... Since scripture is full flaw, So God is something by chance you have made intimate to you and not by fear and necessity?
And the last concern is embryo and solid dome... So you believe the explanation of embryo and solid dome are not going in line with science so you question them so they be mum coz they temp to believe embryo otherwise and no dome as well...
So you accepted science for whatever it says over the verses of Quran... Is that sound right if I say so.
Science is something to be believed when verified.. I don't reject it at all.. For example DNA.. I do believe and I hope that is right thing to believe.. But never forget science is developing and not complete... So... Rejecting God's verses in place developing science... What would you do if science change their mind at a lost time.. Further there are sience that may trick human being into false direction intentionally.. Have you verified their intentions...So, Where are you heading by having faith in this nature? Do you have any idea?
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Peace NWQ...
Bit off-topic but I would like to ask opinion..
Do you take this watawasaw as Exhort /Enjoin only... But for me this watawasaw is perfectly giving sense as inherit...
One believe, and do good deeds and inherit to himself with truth and patience ...if we don't enjoin, are we at loss? Just asking... What is you or opinion and others...
If I enjoin will others take it as true, how do one know what he enjoin is right.. As we all know there is so many difference of understanding within Quran among believers.. So by enjoining they won't necessarily accept.. Would they?
Inherit for me suits perfectly..By the way brother NWQ.. I do completly agree verses which says Enjoin right /good and avoid wrong /bad where word YAmurun is used.. You can enjoin.. That's fine.. Nowhere it is mentioned that we are at loss where YAmurun is mentioned.. And not Truth and patience enjoin.. I hope ..
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Dear Sania,
If I may voice some comments over your concerns
- Most of us here identify as "Muslims/Submitters" which is what God named His servants since the days of Abraham (not "Quranists"
- This forum is a sounding board for ideas - the posts are not meant to be taken literally and some views are far out there. The articles in the site are more founded in specific verses and would be a better place to get information rather than debate without end;
- We are commanded by God to "listen to what is being said, and follow the best of it" (391 - that should always be your compass as you what to follow should there be varying points;
- All people who serve God alone and do good work (Jews, Nazarenes, etc.) have nothing to fear (262);
- Walk before you run (the Qur'an was revealed in time and over stages - you are trying to absorb it all at once which si creating all of these concerns.
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What about abortion before the fetus is formed ? When it remains just a mass of cell ?
I don't really know what to make on abortion at that stage. It depend on the stage you determine the human life begins with. I believe biologically, the mast of cells is alive, but so is a single sperm or an egg. To me it's all about playing safe and erring on the side of caution.
I read some of the articles and they said alcohol is only forbidden if it causes intoxication. People can have one glass of red wine and can even use it in food.
Moderate drinking, right? I've considered that opinion before but gave it up because moderate drinking could be a slippery slope to addiction and intoxication.
Other said that Allah made penis and vagina as the sex organ, so it is common sense Allah is only talking about vaginal sex in Quran and others prohibited. Also, there is a verse which said we should avoid indeceny which are both visible and hidden. They claim all kind of sex except vaginal sex and masturbation comes under hidden indecency.
Again, Qur'an did not mention these things. These people just see taboos and activities they're grossed out by and they're finding an Qur'anic authority to ban it. It is a form of religious abuse.
Can you explain 416, isn't it talking about adultery and its punishment ?
OK. I made a mistake, I've been translating the verse wrongly.
As i said i have immense fear of misinterpreting laws of Allah and transgressing against Quran. At the same time it doesn't make sense to me either. I feel like instead of following Something wrong i should follow nothing at all. If monotheism is what the main message of Quran then I already believe in the day of Judgement and that God is one. I feel like the label of muslim is weighing down on me ( in today's time muslim doesn't mean submitter to God. Now it has taken a form of submitter to a specific religion called Islam. Now Islam doesn't just mean submission to God. It means submission to the Quran ). Plus muslims have a long way to go before they let go of arrogance and bullying. The mainstream muslims are sectarians. Forget about hadiths, if I try to explain my opinion on some verse of Quran they would start the name calling. These people have created such a bad image of Islam that i hate being associated with them. I donot fit in a sectarian world and the Quran alone is not doing it for me. I believe in God. I believe that Quran is the word of God. It's just that the words of God is not making any sense to me. I just dont want to end up in hell for abandoning Quran.
Ah, if only I could be any help to you. Just trust your instinct. Try be as honest and rational as you can and leave the rest to fate.
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Peace... Neptin ...
I am not here to advise you or change you... But your path will take you nowhere... Unless you be certain in your way chosen.
I am talking about cold harsh truth what you have written... So literally Quran is false.. That's cold harsh truth in your view.. Can I have 10 example if you have time that prompted to say so.. Except from what you have already stated..
I didn't say the Qur'an is false. I said there are certain verses that haven't aged well, verses that our accumulated body of knowledge contradict or do not verify. Now, as Muslims we may insist the verses have to be correct because the Qur'an is a divine text, but if a neutral reader is unable to reach the same conclusion, then we have a huge problem.
If you want examples of these verses, just type "Errors in the Qur'an" in Google search box and start from there. Listen to some few exMuslims and Islam critics.
And emphasize on your second point.. There is no flawless scripture. Why you decided so? So you still opted to believe in deity who can't even construct a clear book of instructions... Since scripture is full flaw, So God is something by chance you have made intimate to you and not by fear and necessity?
No. To me it is all about pragmatism. I can have doubt on accuracy of certain verses while at the same time appreciating the wisdom and teachings of other verses that I feel lend me a sense of fulfillment and hope. The notion that you have to reject the entire faith because just one verse is erroneous to you is not part of my philosophy on faith.
And the last concern is embryo and solid dome... So you believe the explanation of embryo and solid dome are not going in line with science so you question them so they be mum coz they temp to believe embryo otherwise and no dome as well...
So you accepted science for whatever it says over the verses of Quran... Is that sound right if I say so.It's not as so simple as taking what the science teacher says over the Qur'an. It's about the evidence in favor or against the Qur'an. Remember, the Qur'an don't just ask you to believe, it challenges you to verify. And I've had trouble verifying ideas of several verses that explains nature.
So... Rejecting God's verses in place developing science... What would you do if science change their mind at a lost time.. Further there are sience that may trick human being into false direction intentionally..
I think it is pretty illogical to be asking these questions. It would be like asking, "What will you do tomorrow if you learn that meat is bad food?" The Qur'an makes claims, it challenges us to verify these claims from sources outside of it. And that's what I've done so far as honest as I can be. You may say that scientific research publications are lies or fabrications, but the onus is on you to prove that.
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I didn't say the Qur'an is false. I said there are certain verses that haven't aged well, verses that our accumulated body of knowledge contradict or do not verify. Now, as Muslims we may insist the verses have to be correct because the Qur'an is a divine text, but if a neutral reader is unable to reach the same conclusion, then we have a huge problem.
If you want examples of these verses, just type "Errors in the Qur'an" in Google search box and start from there. Listen to some few exMuslims and Islam critics.
No. To me it is all about pragmatism. I can have doubt on accuracy of certain verses while at the same time appreciating the wisdom and teachings of other verses that I feel lend me a sense of fulfillment and hope. The notion that you have to reject the entire faith because just one verse is erroneous to you is not part of my philosophy on faith.
It's not as so simple as taking what the science teacher says over the Qur'an. It's about the evidence in favor or against the Qur'an. Remember, the Qur'an don't just ask you to believe, it challenges you to verify. And I've had trouble verifying ideas of several verses that explains nature.
I think it is pretty illogical to be asking these questions. It would be like asking, "What will you do tomorrow if you learn that meat is bad food?" The Qur'an makes claims, it challenges us to verify these claims from sources outside of it. And that's what I've done so far as honest as I can be. You may say that scientific research publications are lies or fabrications, but the onus is on you to prove that.
Thank you brother Neptin..
Peace..
I am bit on the weaker side in English.. So I thought you said Quran is false.. But I leave it to the expert readers in English whether you actually stated or not .. For me still your statement is a verdict to claim you said so.. That's what I understood..You got it wrong dude.. God never said as Muslim, verses have to be correct... That's you mere assumption.. Further we all are neutral readers... We have all the rights to accept the Quran or reject... For accepting and rejecting one has to be neutral and study thoroughly and verify... Then one can take either of the decision.. But for a believer (even before quran) in God this Quran is non but truth that's his faith... I was a neutral reader when I initiated reading Quran.. No huge problem... It depends on each individual's interest... It was like finding medicinal plants in a jungle on your own first time ... Can everyone be successful?
Brother I wanted your example ciz you brought this matter to the table.. I know we can google almost anything.. I wanted to know what your concerns... OK leave that.. I won't dig again that..
Taking part of of the book which makes sense and reject which doesn't make sense is absolutely fine.. I also do that... BUT only human authored book I do so.. But not in God's.. If I find one in God's book and if it is provable to the best of knowledge then I will reject all of His book and Himself as well.. Coz having flaws in a book of Creator is ridiculous... Flaws can only be in human infusion.. Anyhow that's my way.. But in God's book God says why take part of the book and leave others.. So it sounds like there is nothing contradictory in quran..
Evidence in favor of or against the Quran.. Of course we have to coz book challenges so literally God challenges... Verification is key.. But you claim you are in trouble verifying them especially pertaining to nature.. .. You are in trouble doesn't mean that they aren't verifiable ... In time hopefully you will in sha Allah..
It is not illogical brother...but the angle you took is illogical.. Look at the example you brought.. "What will you do tomorrow if you learn that meat is bad food?"
Do you want me to answer it.. Let me do it. I would still eat meat.. Coz I love meat.. For ages it was good for me.. And for generation people do eat them... And scientific point of view they have been recommending eating since it has best protein.. On top of that QURAN has allowed meat(does creator know better or scientist) . If they suddenly say not good it is their concern... And not ours.. Coz they may again say another thing about meat after sometime.. We are not here to dance to tune of their research and development... But we respect a convinced statement from science which they don't change and towards it people have kept faith 100 % ... Like said DNA... It is like finger print..
But embryo or having no dome all their on going research...Of their publications OR research are verified by all scientists and for people's common sense and not a developing research but confirmed then we need to verify before accepting it.. Why I and 99.9% do accept DNA OR fingerprint .. Coz it is manifest ... No need to prove from our end anything in which they themselves not yet convinced...
I hope I have answered to your all questions.. Though I didn't segregate with your relevant quote..
May the blessings of God be with you..
