Homosexuality: A Cost To Society or Harmless
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Peace be upon you Joe,
Yes, human are clay(water and earth) and can be shaped into ANY BEHAVIOR. Thats why we watch the news in amazement and say "Wow, how could someone do this and that?"
Yes, TRUST IN IT! The Human can be CHNAGED into ANY BEHAVIOR. So we need to get busy sculpting ourselves in our world.
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I guess paedophiles and even serial killers were "born that way" too?... ?
same old responses eh, lets lump homosexuals and paedophiles, there we go problem sorted.
paedophiles are predators, even if you cut off their balls they still hurt and abuse childern, can you say they same for homosexuals, do they hurt and prey upon unsuspecting victims.
your comments are unjust.
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Follow the same science logic you presented and thats where you'll end up. 'Bad genes', anyone? I just did the same thing you did. Instead of dismissing it, try tackling it from the base, then see if my comments are unjust, or "same old". roll
- And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit lewdness with what no people of the worlds before you had done??
- ?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.?
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Follow the same science logic you presented and thats where you'll end up. 'Bad genes', anyone? I just did the same thing you did. Instead of dismissing it, try tackling it from the base, then see if my comments are unjust, or "same old". roll
no sure what you mean here bro.
- And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit lewdness with what no people of the worlds before you had done??
- ?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.?
ah, I was wondering when you'd get to Lot. There are a couple of things you need think about here.
Why aren't women addressed here. Why is the Quran quiet on this issue of female sexuality.
Secondly it is clear from verses they that men had developed predatory desires. They hunted men fox sex, there was no question about consent or about being a homosexual couple. In the end they wanted to rape Lot and his guests. They weren't asking him out on a date!
This is not homosexual behaviour which is a feeling of love directed towards other consenting homosexuals but this an aggressive crime towards non-consenting hetrosexuals.
These guys had wives at home, they were hetrosexuals practicing forced sex on other hetrosexuals.
Peace.
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Peace
Why aren't women addressed here. Why is the Quran quiet on this issue of female sexuality.
I concentrate on what is, rather than what's not. )Secondly it is clear from verses they that men had developed predatory desires. They hunted men fox sex,
yes, instead of women... ?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.?In the end they wanted to rape Lot and his guests. They weren't asking him out on a date!
Perhaps that's why Lot offered his daughters?.. to get raped? ?This is not homosexual behaviour which is a feeling of love directed towards other consenting homosexuals but this an aggressive crime towards non-consenting hetrosexuals.
Actually they didn't even come for Lot, they knew what he was all about, they gave up on him, infact they wanted to expel him. The came there for 'the messengers'.These guys had wives at home, they were hetrosexuals practicing forced sex on other hetrosexuals.
I realized something a while ago... we all see what we all see... there's no forcing an understanding on anyone. We can only share and take from it what we will.God guides to the truth, all praises due to HIM.
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Peace be upon you Burhan,
same old responses eh, lets lump homosexuals and paedophiles, there we go problem sorted.
Yes, lump them together under the title "rejectors"
The sexual act, as verified by the traveling of the semen to the egg, goes from man to women, so the God merely gave us the restriction while keeping true to creation. Just like you don't see female messengers, because the message is sent out, like sperm, to the heart of the reciever(the human).
As Zenje stated, Lot offered his daughters, they rejected because they are perverse and thier incorrect beliefs about sex are ending the line of thier families. Each one of us here was blessed to have parents who followed the LAW.
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I think no-one can reasonably say that they are 'born' as something, other than as belonging to one sex or the human race.
The rest of it is definitely to do with the socio-cultural factor. The environment and life experience in interation with other humans plays the total part in the person's individual make-up and personality.
When it comes to sexual issues, I think logic tells us what each organ is for. I can only think it reasonable to assume that the male and female organ were made so as to bond together, but not just for mere pleasure, but with a purpose of reproduction.
How people go about using it though is obviously down to them and what has influenced them in their lives. But looking at it anatomically and purposefully, it can only be that the male and female have reason to be sexual partners.
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Peace All,
My neighbors had 2 male dogs that used to hump each other all the time. I wonder now, had there been a female around, would the homosexual humping have ceased.
I agree that anatomically, there is no question of whether or not homosexuality is natural. And I also agree that society plays a major role in culturing, sympathizing with, and even encouraging homosexuality.
But I'd add that there does exist the occassional mutation of genetic material.
Overall, I don't think homosexuals should be lashed out at. To each his own, I say. But when society encourages homosexuality, then this possibly drags down the potential of all of society.
Interstingly, the same Psychologist who made put together the breakthrough research which eventually removed homosexuality from the encyclopedia of mental illnesses as a treatable "disease", today feels that he was wrong for having it removed.
Peace,
Tay -
Firstly, God's prophets were not like you. They were capable of immense sacrifice to save their people.
Which is why you find it difficult to understand why he would offer his daughters.If a gang of paedophiles broke in to your house and you have no support to defend your children, would you not offer
them yourself or other adults to avoid the humiliation of your children.Can you understand what Lot was going through!!
1177/1561 The messengers arrive at Lot's;
Lot is upset and stressed out because of them.
He knows they mean business and his city (men and women) will be destroyed. But he tries to talk them out of it.1563-66 The messengers unveil their plan.
1178/1567 Lot's people/inhabitants of the city (men and women) arrive, they want the messengers.
1179/1568 Lot offers his daughter for them to "carry out their deed";
Not for marriage or to cure them of homosexuality but to become victims of their crime.
and to divert their evil attention from his guests. Lot knows if they try to rape the messengers then that will spell certain doom. He will have no room to negotiate with the messengers.1180 They say they have no right over his daughter;
Why are they talking about rights. They knew raping their own women was not what they sought, however they had
legitimised the sexual abuse of any man visiting their city. They felt it was their right.Secondly, Do you really belive that God would destroy and entire community due to the sexual orientation of the males.
If they were all gay then they would have wiped themselves out. God needn't have acted. This why traditional understanding of
26165-6 is wrong.
The truth is some had wives (26166). They were reproducing and creating more monsters like themselves, which is why God
(and not them) put an and to their lineage/seed. (1556).Think about why Lot's wife was killed; was she a homosexual aswell or was it to end the lineage.
Then men in Lot's community were heterosexuals who made it an obligation to rape male visitors to their city.
This is not too dissimilar to what we see in the prisons, where it is considered obligatory by some to rape a new comer.Please read God's sunna. See why he destroys entire nations.
Read 2931, they were called "thalimeen",
The crime was the sexual abuse of men. This is not the same as homosexuality.Finally, If you read 780-1 (2755-56) with homophobic glasses then you will only see what you mind desires. If you read it
without prejudice then you will see the truth.- Lot's people have committed something never committed before.
- The sexual abuse of women by men existed from the days of Adam.
- The sexual abuse of men to the exclusion of women was something new.
Which is why Lot utters the following.
"you commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you"
"you practise your lusts on men in preference to women"
"you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds"Lot wasn't saying it's ok to approach any women instead of men. He's telling them that they have crossed the line by
sexually abusing men.Read 26165, it gives another clue that they were targeting heterosexual men to the exclusion of everyone else.
leaving behind their legitimate spouses.26166 And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates?
heterosexual women for heterosexual men
homosexual men for homosexual men.God creates what he wills!
peace
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Salaam,
Burhan, I did speak about this view a while ago, that it was because of their violence and not really 'homosexual tendencies' that the people were chastised, but how is it that we are not told the daughters choice in this matter. Do the rusul now abandon other decrees, that their children have the right to decide whom they will marry? What were the daughters choices in this matter, were they willing or in staunch disagreement?
Joe
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but how is it that we are not told the daughters choice in this matter. Do the rusul now abandon other decrees, that their children have the right to decide whom they will marry?
Waslaam Joe, if you read my previous post this is exactly what I saying. Lot wasn't offereing his daughters for marriage, but to divert the evil intention of his people from his guests. Which is why he wished he had the strength to stop them.
It was perhaps a bluff. The men in Lot's community already had women, they had no need of his daugthers. Lot knew that.
Lot was related to Abraham, so it does not surprise me that he would go to such lengths to save his people.
Peace.
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Peace Burhan,
As I said before, we look at the same book, and we see what we see. So all I can say is, thank you for your post, and we have different views.
Firstly, God's prophets were not like you. They were capable of immense sacrifice to save their people.
Which is why you find it difficult to understand why he would offer his daughters.If a gang of paedophiles broke in to your house and you have no support to defend your children, would you not offer
them yourself or other adults to avoid the humiliation of your children.Let me ask you this though, do you see the contradictions you posted in this quote alone? Just read it again and take your time. No need to reply.
Also, in your opinion, why were any if the people (Aad, Thamud, etc.) annihilated? Was there a main reason mentioned, among other reasons? Just curious, not setting up another debate.
Peace
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As I said before, we look at the same book, and we see what we see.
D Yep thats what I said as well.
I also remember I used to read the same quran and never realised not to associate other Gods with God. I used to read it think it was ok beat women. I used to read it and never misunderstood rules of war.
I used to misinterpert Lot's story in those days aswell. You can probably find my views from those days on 19.org somewhere. Ironically not that different from yours at all.
I don't post to start debates or to force a change of opinion.
I took me five years to change mine.I only post to say what hasn't been said or when a discussion is very one sided.
Please don't think I'm trying to change your views D I really don't want the burden.Peace.
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Peace be upon you Burhan,
Firstly, God's prophets were not like you. They were capable of immense sacrifice to save their people.
Which is why you find it difficult to understand why he would offer his daughters.Respectfully, if you have this outlook, you will not be able to fulfill what you came to earth to do. These MEN are our examples, examples are to be followed and emulated. Continuously we read that "they are MEN LIKE US", so why do you try to make them MEN ABOVE US? Why is there the need to make these righteous characters as superheros that we cannot match up to? Were the humans of the past better than humans of today?
If a gang of paedophiles broke in to your house and you have no support to defend your children, would you not offer
them yourself or other adults to avoid the humiliation of your children.Can you understand what Lot was going through!!
If we think we are weak puny followers of a religion who cannot match up to the examples given, then maybe we wont. Otherwise we would certainly look for another solution which may include what you suggested above, if not a serious beat down of the pervert. But beating down a wrong doer only prevents that particular event, the need to correct the thinking of that pervert still needs to be addressed, and that is what Lot was trying to do, make the homosexual see that his act is incorrect, his sexual lust should be directed toward women. The people were coming after the messengers (male principle), and were directed towards the females.
1177/1561 The messengers arrive at Lot's;
Lot is upset and stressed out because of them.
He knows they mean business and his city (men and women) will be destroyed. But he tries to talk them out of it.The last word in this verse (according to translation, second last per Arabic) is contradictory to your statement of "men AND women".
(117 And his nation came to him rushing disturbedly/hysterically/madly to him, and from before they were making/doing the sins/crimes, he said "You (my) nation those are my daughters, they are (F) purer for you, so fear and obey God and do not shame/scandalize/disgrace me in (front of) my guests, is (there) not from you a correctly/rightly guided man (rajulun)?"
The above verse states that Lut's "people" were a group of MEN(rajulun). And therefore he offered WOMEN for the men.
1563-66 The messengers unveil their plan.
1178/1567 Lot's people/inhabitants of the city (men and women) arrive, they want the messengers.
Again, 1178 states it was just men.
1179/1568 Lot offers his daughter for them to "carry out their deed";
Not for marriage or to cure them of homosexuality but to become victims of their crime.
and to divert their evil attention from his guests. Lot knows if they try to rape the messengers then that will spell certain doom. He will have no room to negotiate with the messengers.YOu see, it is an "idolizing tendency" to make the messengers as "GREATER THAN MANKIND" that is causing your error. Rape is Rape, how is raping a young girl any different from raping a man? Its still rape, you only changed the identity of the victim. HOWEVER, if the subject is homosexuality, then by offering a WOMEN to a man instead of another man, YOU HAVE MADE RIGHT the proper connection. Its like if someone came to me with a cord to plug in and they kept trying to plug it into another plug, If I offer them an electrical outlet, then they can plug the cord in correctly.
1180 They say they have no right over his daughter;
Why are they talking about rights. They knew raping their own women was not what they sought, however they had
legitimised the sexual abuse of any man visiting their city. They felt it was their right.What are you referring to? Where is the discussion of rights? Lets look at the verse again.
(1180) He said "If that for me (is) on you power/strength, or I take shelter to a strong corner/strong support."
Lut was wishing he had power/strength in order to prevent these homosexuals from doing what they came to do, or some shelter to be protected from them, where are the "rights" you talked about?
Secondly, Do you really belive that God would destroy and entire community due to the sexual orientation of the males.
If they were all gay then they would have wiped themselves out. God needn't have acted.
YOu just answered your own question!! D The community slowly changed to homosexual (as some societies are doing today), the NATURAL OUTCOME of the increase on NON REPRODUCING LIFESTYLES will lead to a destroyed community, because there are no more generations coming. And by the way, THAT IS GOD's WORK because the God put these laws into place. I state this based on your comment "God needn't have acted". The God is the one who makes all things happen, "it is not you who threw, but WE threw"
This why traditional understanding of
26165-6 is wrong.
The truth is some had wives (26166). They were reproducing and creating more monsters like themselves, which is why God
(and not them) put an and to their lineage/seed. (1556).NOw look at the verse you just gave us, 26166, these men left thier PROPER MATES in search for the same sex! Thats why in 1178, he speaks only to MEN. The MEN left thier women and came after MEN.
Think about why Lot's wife was killed; was she a homosexual aswell or was it to end the lineage.
No, she was destroyed because she LAGGED BEHIND. She was one who ALLOWED homosexuality and lagged behind instead of obeying the God's command.
(26170-171) So We saved/rescued him and his family all of them, EXCEPT an old woman in the lingering behind.
(37134-135) "repeats the above verses"
An "OLD WOMAN" symbolizes a person who is stuck in thier ways. They are stuck in the ideas they RECIEVE(female). So Luts wife is just like many today who say "Ohhh, its okay, some people might be born that way, they love each other" and all other kinds of excuses to justify this CLEARLY wrong action of having sex with the same sex. So she lagged behind in that incorrect reasoning and was destroyed like they were.
Then men in Lot's community were heterosexuals who made it an obligation to rape male visitors to their city.
This is not too dissimilar to what we see in the prisons, where it is considered obligatory by some to rape a new comer.Respectfully, that is far fetched. This is about homosexuality, which by the way is what is going on in prisons, not raping of opposite sex. Also, any prisoner who rapes a man is a homosexual. I have in prison for 8 months, I had no urge to rape any man, nor did I have any urge to willingly have sex with any man.
Please read God's sunna. See why he destroys entire nations.
For going against the LAW, one of which is that men and women have sex with each other so that life continues, not with the same sex so life would end , by the God's LAW.
Read 2931, they were called "thalimeen",
The crime was the sexual abuse of men. This is not the same as homosexuality.Yes, there were unjust (thalimeen), because they were homosexuals!
How mant times do we read "do you apprach men?" What is causing you to lag behind in this topic which is so clear?
Finally, If you read 780-1 (2755-56) with homophobic glasses then you will only see what you mind desires. If you read it
without prejudice then you will see the truth.Brother, with or without glasses, this verse says the same thing.
- Lot's people have committed something never committed before. 2. The sexual abuse of women by men existed from the days of Adam.
- The sexual abuse of men to the exclusion of women was something new.
Which is why Lot utters the following.
"you commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you"
"you practise your lusts on men in preference to women"
"you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds"Lot wasn't saying it's ok to approach any women instead of men. He's telling them that they have crossed the line by
sexually abusing men.Lets take a look at the verse which is the foundation of the above "reasonings" for your position.
(780) And Lot when he said to his nation "Do you commit the enormous/atrocious deed , not from anyone from the knowledgeable did not precede you with it?"
So you see, this verse DOES NOT SAY this was never done before, only that no one from the KNOWLEDGABLE (alameena) ever did anything so stupid as to have sex with another man (same sex). Lot was telling them to be SMART, not to follow the ignorant people before them, but intead the KNOWLEDGABLE people.
So this foundation you have built your argument from has collapsed on the sandy cliff. Homosexuality is WRONG. You can lag behind if you want, there is no compulsion. But truth stands clear from falsehood.
Read 26165, it gives another clue that they were targeting heterosexual men to the exclusion of everyone else.
leaving behind their legitimate spouses.26166 And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates?
heterosexual women for heterosexual men
homosexual men for homosexual men.God creates what he wills!
No! Just as all messengers are given in the MALE context, we are looking at a flow of direction. WHile this seems to be addressed to just males, it is keeoing in line with the ORDER the God created. It is the MAN who is the aggressor in sex. The SEED goes forth from the man and is recieved by the woman. We are dealing with the male /female (energy and matter) PRINCIPLES.
The God is NOT saying "homosexual men for homosexual men"!! D
Thses verses apply to men and women alike, but are given in the context of men going after men because it is dealing with the aggressive male principle (the seed). The seed belongs in the woman, not in the mans behind, or mouth.
Please reflect carefully on what I have stated above so that you will not be one who lags behind on this matter.
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Peace be upon you all,
I think my last post clear enough, but I wanted to also add another point for reflection.
SOme are saying that homosexuality is naturaul, that some just are attracted to the same sex.
My question is, why then do MANY of the homosexual men, end up IMITATING women? Dressing like them, sounding like them, switching, and all kinds of female tendiencies?
Same with Lesbians, why do some start looking like men? Why do they change thier nature? Why not just stay what you are but have sex with the same sex?
I say its because it is a MENTAL DISEASE!
There is no reason for a homosexual male to act like a woman to have sex with another man, nor is there any reason for a Lesbian to start acting like a man to have sex with another woman.
I don't think people have thought about this topic enough. I hope you will though and not be one who lags behind as Lots wife did.
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Peace be upon you Tay and Joe,
Tay
I agree that homosexuality can be a disease, but I would add that it can also be conditioned behavior based upon environmental and societal influence, or lack thereof.
I would say that a perverted conditioned behavior is a disease of the heart.
Joe
I think these people do not feel the need to correspond to gender roles which society makes up anyways. For example, a common gender role may be women are cooks and men are not. If you start becoming agood cook is something wrong there?
No, but if I start wearing a dress while cooking, THEN something is wrong.
Well, I have said my piece on this, those who wish to lag on this issue are free to lag, but let my position be clear, I am against THE ACT of homosexuality as I am against all perverse (Iblis) behavior.