Homosexuality: A Cost To Society or Harmless
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As I said before, we look at the same book, and we see what we see.
D Yep thats what I said as well.
I also remember I used to read the same quran and never realised not to associate other Gods with God. I used to read it think it was ok beat women. I used to read it and never misunderstood rules of war.
I used to misinterpert Lot's story in those days aswell. You can probably find my views from those days on 19.org somewhere. Ironically not that different from yours at all.
I don't post to start debates or to force a change of opinion.
I took me five years to change mine.I only post to say what hasn't been said or when a discussion is very one sided.
Please don't think I'm trying to change your views D I really don't want the burden.Peace.
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Peace be upon you Burhan,
Firstly, God's prophets were not like you. They were capable of immense sacrifice to save their people.
Which is why you find it difficult to understand why he would offer his daughters.Respectfully, if you have this outlook, you will not be able to fulfill what you came to earth to do. These MEN are our examples, examples are to be followed and emulated. Continuously we read that "they are MEN LIKE US", so why do you try to make them MEN ABOVE US? Why is there the need to make these righteous characters as superheros that we cannot match up to? Were the humans of the past better than humans of today?
If a gang of paedophiles broke in to your house and you have no support to defend your children, would you not offer
them yourself or other adults to avoid the humiliation of your children.Can you understand what Lot was going through!!
If we think we are weak puny followers of a religion who cannot match up to the examples given, then maybe we wont. Otherwise we would certainly look for another solution which may include what you suggested above, if not a serious beat down of the pervert. But beating down a wrong doer only prevents that particular event, the need to correct the thinking of that pervert still needs to be addressed, and that is what Lot was trying to do, make the homosexual see that his act is incorrect, his sexual lust should be directed toward women. The people were coming after the messengers (male principle), and were directed towards the females.
1177/1561 The messengers arrive at Lot's;
Lot is upset and stressed out because of them.
He knows they mean business and his city (men and women) will be destroyed. But he tries to talk them out of it.The last word in this verse (according to translation, second last per Arabic) is contradictory to your statement of "men AND women".
(117 And his nation came to him rushing disturbedly/hysterically/madly to him, and from before they were making/doing the sins/crimes, he said "You (my) nation those are my daughters, they are (F) purer for you, so fear and obey God and do not shame/scandalize/disgrace me in (front of) my guests, is (there) not from you a correctly/rightly guided man (rajulun)?"
The above verse states that Lut's "people" were a group of MEN(rajulun). And therefore he offered WOMEN for the men.
1563-66 The messengers unveil their plan.
1178/1567 Lot's people/inhabitants of the city (men and women) arrive, they want the messengers.
Again, 1178 states it was just men.
1179/1568 Lot offers his daughter for them to "carry out their deed";
Not for marriage or to cure them of homosexuality but to become victims of their crime.
and to divert their evil attention from his guests. Lot knows if they try to rape the messengers then that will spell certain doom. He will have no room to negotiate with the messengers.YOu see, it is an "idolizing tendency" to make the messengers as "GREATER THAN MANKIND" that is causing your error. Rape is Rape, how is raping a young girl any different from raping a man? Its still rape, you only changed the identity of the victim. HOWEVER, if the subject is homosexuality, then by offering a WOMEN to a man instead of another man, YOU HAVE MADE RIGHT the proper connection. Its like if someone came to me with a cord to plug in and they kept trying to plug it into another plug, If I offer them an electrical outlet, then they can plug the cord in correctly.
1180 They say they have no right over his daughter;
Why are they talking about rights. They knew raping their own women was not what they sought, however they had
legitimised the sexual abuse of any man visiting their city. They felt it was their right.What are you referring to? Where is the discussion of rights? Lets look at the verse again.
(1180) He said "If that for me (is) on you power/strength, or I take shelter to a strong corner/strong support."
Lut was wishing he had power/strength in order to prevent these homosexuals from doing what they came to do, or some shelter to be protected from them, where are the "rights" you talked about?
Secondly, Do you really belive that God would destroy and entire community due to the sexual orientation of the males.
If they were all gay then they would have wiped themselves out. God needn't have acted.
YOu just answered your own question!! D The community slowly changed to homosexual (as some societies are doing today), the NATURAL OUTCOME of the increase on NON REPRODUCING LIFESTYLES will lead to a destroyed community, because there are no more generations coming. And by the way, THAT IS GOD's WORK because the God put these laws into place. I state this based on your comment "God needn't have acted". The God is the one who makes all things happen, "it is not you who threw, but WE threw"
This why traditional understanding of
26165-6 is wrong.
The truth is some had wives (26166). They were reproducing and creating more monsters like themselves, which is why God
(and not them) put an and to their lineage/seed. (1556).NOw look at the verse you just gave us, 26166, these men left thier PROPER MATES in search for the same sex! Thats why in 1178, he speaks only to MEN. The MEN left thier women and came after MEN.
Think about why Lot's wife was killed; was she a homosexual aswell or was it to end the lineage.
No, she was destroyed because she LAGGED BEHIND. She was one who ALLOWED homosexuality and lagged behind instead of obeying the God's command.
(26170-171) So We saved/rescued him and his family all of them, EXCEPT an old woman in the lingering behind.
(37134-135) "repeats the above verses"
An "OLD WOMAN" symbolizes a person who is stuck in thier ways. They are stuck in the ideas they RECIEVE(female). So Luts wife is just like many today who say "Ohhh, its okay, some people might be born that way, they love each other" and all other kinds of excuses to justify this CLEARLY wrong action of having sex with the same sex. So she lagged behind in that incorrect reasoning and was destroyed like they were.
Then men in Lot's community were heterosexuals who made it an obligation to rape male visitors to their city.
This is not too dissimilar to what we see in the prisons, where it is considered obligatory by some to rape a new comer.Respectfully, that is far fetched. This is about homosexuality, which by the way is what is going on in prisons, not raping of opposite sex. Also, any prisoner who rapes a man is a homosexual. I have in prison for 8 months, I had no urge to rape any man, nor did I have any urge to willingly have sex with any man.
Please read God's sunna. See why he destroys entire nations.
For going against the LAW, one of which is that men and women have sex with each other so that life continues, not with the same sex so life would end , by the God's LAW.
Read 2931, they were called "thalimeen",
The crime was the sexual abuse of men. This is not the same as homosexuality.Yes, there were unjust (thalimeen), because they were homosexuals!
How mant times do we read "do you apprach men?" What is causing you to lag behind in this topic which is so clear?
Finally, If you read 780-1 (2755-56) with homophobic glasses then you will only see what you mind desires. If you read it
without prejudice then you will see the truth.Brother, with or without glasses, this verse says the same thing.
- Lot's people have committed something never committed before. 2. The sexual abuse of women by men existed from the days of Adam.
- The sexual abuse of men to the exclusion of women was something new.
Which is why Lot utters the following.
"you commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you"
"you practise your lusts on men in preference to women"
"you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds"Lot wasn't saying it's ok to approach any women instead of men. He's telling them that they have crossed the line by
sexually abusing men.Lets take a look at the verse which is the foundation of the above "reasonings" for your position.
(780) And Lot when he said to his nation "Do you commit the enormous/atrocious deed , not from anyone from the knowledgeable did not precede you with it?"
So you see, this verse DOES NOT SAY this was never done before, only that no one from the KNOWLEDGABLE (alameena) ever did anything so stupid as to have sex with another man (same sex). Lot was telling them to be SMART, not to follow the ignorant people before them, but intead the KNOWLEDGABLE people.
So this foundation you have built your argument from has collapsed on the sandy cliff. Homosexuality is WRONG. You can lag behind if you want, there is no compulsion. But truth stands clear from falsehood.
Read 26165, it gives another clue that they were targeting heterosexual men to the exclusion of everyone else.
leaving behind their legitimate spouses.26166 And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates?
heterosexual women for heterosexual men
homosexual men for homosexual men.God creates what he wills!
No! Just as all messengers are given in the MALE context, we are looking at a flow of direction. WHile this seems to be addressed to just males, it is keeoing in line with the ORDER the God created. It is the MAN who is the aggressor in sex. The SEED goes forth from the man and is recieved by the woman. We are dealing with the male /female (energy and matter) PRINCIPLES.
The God is NOT saying "homosexual men for homosexual men"!! D
Thses verses apply to men and women alike, but are given in the context of men going after men because it is dealing with the aggressive male principle (the seed). The seed belongs in the woman, not in the mans behind, or mouth.
Please reflect carefully on what I have stated above so that you will not be one who lags behind on this matter.
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Peace be upon you all,
I think my last post clear enough, but I wanted to also add another point for reflection.
SOme are saying that homosexuality is naturaul, that some just are attracted to the same sex.
My question is, why then do MANY of the homosexual men, end up IMITATING women? Dressing like them, sounding like them, switching, and all kinds of female tendiencies?
Same with Lesbians, why do some start looking like men? Why do they change thier nature? Why not just stay what you are but have sex with the same sex?
I say its because it is a MENTAL DISEASE!
There is no reason for a homosexual male to act like a woman to have sex with another man, nor is there any reason for a Lesbian to start acting like a man to have sex with another woman.
I don't think people have thought about this topic enough. I hope you will though and not be one who lags behind as Lots wife did.
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Peace be upon you Tay and Joe,
Tay
I agree that homosexuality can be a disease, but I would add that it can also be conditioned behavior based upon environmental and societal influence, or lack thereof.
I would say that a perverted conditioned behavior is a disease of the heart.
Joe
I think these people do not feel the need to correspond to gender roles which society makes up anyways. For example, a common gender role may be women are cooks and men are not. If you start becoming agood cook is something wrong there?
No, but if I start wearing a dress while cooking, THEN something is wrong.
Well, I have said my piece on this, those who wish to lag on this issue are free to lag, but let my position be clear, I am against THE ACT of homosexuality as I am against all perverse (Iblis) behavior.
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Salaam Kyle,
Problem is, straight men can feel comfortable in women's attire and be as feminine as women and not be gay. There are straight men who switch, like to wear lipstick and makeup and to be beautiful. Then there are gay men who are as hard as any thug. Surely you're familiar with the Down Low? In NY there are homo thugs who are as manly as can be.
Joe
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Peace Tay, all,
Interstingly, the same Psychologist who made put together the breakthrough research which eventually removed homosexuality from the encyclopedia of mental illnesses as a treatable "disease", today feels that he was wrong for having it removed.
Do you have the name of this psychologist, and which journal papers (vol. #, etc) he has published this research in? Or where I can learn more about this?
thanks,
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Peace David,
The psychologist's name is Robert Spitzer. I'm not sure of the journal papers, if any, only that he headed the task force designated to revise the Psychiatric Association?s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). His input was fundamental in having homosexuality removed from the DSM as a "treatable" disease. Ironically, his latest research proves quite the opposite, and he seemed very apologetic in the article I read about him a while ago. I'm sure a quick Google will pull up the relevant info.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace all,
- Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example has been set for you for he who seeks God and the Last Day and thinks constantly about God.
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom (feminine) you have already given their (feminine) dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom (feminine)they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are still dependant. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
It is clear that the God doesn't allow the prophet to have a mate from men.
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You may postpone whom you will of them (feminine), and you may receive whom you will. And whomsoever you seek of those whom you have set aside then there is no sin upon you. This will gladden their (feminine) eyes, their grief will disappear and all of them (feminine)will be content with whatever you give them (feminine)God knows what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.
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It has been made lawful for you during the night of abstinence to approach your women sexually. They (feminine) are a garment for you and you are a garment for them(feminine). God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them (feminine) and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them (feminine)while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
Only women are a garment for men and vice verse. The God's commands are fully detailed and expose what is lawful for us.
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And do not marry (tankihoo) (masculine) the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. Nor shall you give your daughters in marriage (tunkihoo the passive form of the verb to marry) to male who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
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And they ask you about menstruation? Say ?It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you.? God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
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Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
There is no verse where the God speaks about nikah/mariage between two man or two women.
459.O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those entrusted amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
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Peace be upon you all,
Marie, thank you for joining this discussion with some truthful statements.
Joe, yes I am familiar with all of those perversities. Homosexuality is against God's Universal Laws.
Burhan
idolfree1 wrote
Yes, there were unjust (thalimeen), because they were homosexuals!You have a wicked tongue.
My tongue is direct and straightfoward, not beating around the bush lest I be of those who lag behind like Lot's wife.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
Allah specified the punishment for homosexuality in Al-Quran as follows
"And the two women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall annoy them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful". (416-17)
It does not appear that there is any "sexual abuse" by one person of the other in the above sign but it is clear that "consensual homosexuality" both female-female and male-male is what is being mentioned here. How can Allah allow an act for which He is prescribing a punishment !!
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Ah good find above. I didn't really notice that verse before. Interesting how theres new things you find in the Quran D
Apparently theres going to be a gay parade in Jersusalem. Ofcourse this has gotten some people pretty upset. Interesting though that its united Xtians, Jews, and Muslims lol. Back to the point, even though I think homosexuals should have equal rights and all, marching down the streets of Jerusalem is just being abnoxious. They can't expect people to feel anything but anger towards them for doing this.
http//www.nytimes.com/2005/03/31/international/worldspecial/31gay.html -
Peace everybody,
I'm not sure at all about the quality of translation of the following verses, which actually are 415+16
"And the two women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall annoy them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful". (416-17)
Is it really "two women" and "two men" which would actually point to homosexuality ? Or is it, "those of your women" (with a connotation of daughter/wife which would suppose some kind of authority men would have on them) and "those among you" (which could be men or women in general). This is an understanding i found in other translations and i just checked with a native arab speaker - this is also what he understands from the verses in arabic.
In order to reach "native arab speakers", i'll PM this post to Marie and Noor for further information inchallah - and thanks in advance. The thread is General Issues/Homosexuality/A thread to society or harmless.
Have a nice day all!
Elke -
Peace everybody,
I'm not sure at all about the quality of translation of the following verses, which actually are 415+16
Quote
"And the two women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall annoy them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful". (416-17)Is it really "two women" and "two men" which would actually point to homosexuality ? Or is it, "those of your women" (with a connotation of daughter/wife which would suppose some kind of authority men would have on them) and "those among you" (which could be men or women in general). This is an understanding i found in other translations and i just checked with a native arab speaker - this is also what he understands from the verses in arabic.
The above translation and verse numbering is from "The Message" by Progressive Muslims
PEACE,
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Salaam all,
The above translation and verse numbering is from "The Message" by Progressive Muslims
Well it is an inaccurate translation. The word that is talked about here is FAHISHA and it means committing a bad act in public. This act can be sexual or non sexual. To ignore the public part of the meaning and to ignore that the act can be non sexual makes for an inaccurate translation.
Second point, they are restricted to their homes. Why? because they are a scandal and not because they have sex. It is because of the public part of their bad acts, whtever they are sexual or non sexual.
Salaam all and have a good day.
hussein
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Salaamun alaikum all,
"And the two women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall annoy them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful". (415-16)
hlatif said
Well it is an inaccurate translation. The word that is talked about here is FAHISHA and it means committing a bad act in public. This act can be sexual or non sexual. To ignore the public part of the meaning and to ignore that the act can be non sexual makes for an inaccurate translation.
Brother Hussein,
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No where in the translation it says "private" lewdness only
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Can you please give me a reference of your opinion of the meaning of FAHISHA meaning "public" only
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"and do not come near FAWAHISH, publicly or privately" (6151)
Here FAWAHISH means both public AND private indecent acts because of the words following it "ma zahara minha wa ma batana"
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According to the Dictionary of The Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar the word FAHISHATAN has the following meanings manifest improper conduct; gross sin; unseemly; immoral conduct; indecent or lewd or abominable word or deed; flagrant indecency; adultery; fornication; sodomy; illicit sexual intercourse. It does not say these acts are only public or only private.
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All the meanings imply sexual acts as sexual does not mean only intercourse but any immoral or indecent or sexual act that can imply a sexual advance or can elicit a sexual response from the other person is considered sexual also. When people are accused of SEXUAL harassment at work it does not mean actual SEX only, it could be any immoral or indecent sexual remark or advancement or foreplay etc.
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Please give me an example of a non sexual FAHISHA from Al-Quran
Brother Elke,
I checked on some other translations and it seems you may be right that the first part of the sign 415 could mean "any of your women" but the word "min" means "amongst" indicating that the verse refers to a female-female act.
Any comments from others?
Peace all, Tanveer
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Salaam brother Tanveer,
Thank you for prompting me to look the root F-Ha-SH. I did look it up at the LISAN ALARAB dictionary and this is what I found
Any ugly word or deed. Or any act or deed or word that exceed the limit in a bad direction. Adultery is considered a FAHISHA, but it is not the only FAHISHA.
You are right, I could not see the public part. Therefore, in this area, I am wrong and you are right. For this I thank you.
You had another question
- Please give me an example of a non sexual FAHISHA from Al-Quran
1732 Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).
So here the word adultery was used and it was mentioned as A FAHISHA rather than THE FAHISHA. If the Qur'an was to limit FAHISHA to sexual acts then the Adultery becomes AL FAHISHA.Those AYAT can be understood in non sexual ways
2169, 2268,3135,6151,728, 733,2419,2945Take care and have a good day
Hussein