Islam/Christianity/Judaism - Miracles - Questions

Fusion

Peace to all, I am learning from all of the posts on this forum. I calim no intelligence nor am educated like you all folks are.
I just have a passion to learn and seek knowledge. I noticed that most of the time folks here debate with out showing respect to others. Its easy to make accusations about another religion or prophet for that matter.

Therefor I will be asking few questions which are so called miracles mentioned in different holy books. I want to believe but I need to make sure that I start with a blank slate and move forward. One chain of thoughts is that there were no prophets, books or angels etc, God never did so except to create man and free will and good and bad and the man will experience both and judge himself. Those prophets are so called enlightened people and they create all this out of their own experience and perhaps to counter the ills of society at that time..... this is not my question here but during the journet i want to counter such thoughts of mine. Because we obviously cant go back in time when establish faculities were not made to record, print of capture pics or videos to witness the so called claims.

To start with; I have always wondered how can a child be born without a father, it just does not make sense, it is against nature and all scientific evidences we have. Thought it is also written in Quran the birth of Jesus but again the translation or the true understanding may differ. Verses in Quran such as 165, 7537, 762,225, 2314,7537-38.
What I meant to say is that could it be possible that Marry had a husband and that she actually got married and then later came with a son (as a result of marraige) and then the whole story starts?

I found a version of Quran which translates the verse and explain the birth in the following manner. I asked all of you to please provide your opinion on the birth of jesus.. not to go into debate of bashing the following translation. Question is simple, when Quran talks about how a new creation is born from mating, how then a verse talks about JESUS defying the natutal law, and could this be our own interpretation at fault? Why we do not see similar miracle or ANY MIRACLE during the modern times? God remains the same.

Chapter 19
17. (The clerical life and the unpleasant events occuring there had such an
adverse effect on her mind that) There also she lived in seclusion, apart from others.
In order to obliterate these effects, We introduced positive thoughts in her mind and
pleasant aspects of life appeared to her (in her dream) as a person.
18. (Mary was frightened at this sight and exclaimed) "I seek the protection of ArRahman from you (if you have any regard and respect for His Laws).”
19. He answered, "(There is no cause to become alarmed because) I have only
brought a message from your Rabb (344). He is going to bestow on you a well
developed son.”
20. She said, "How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me.” (When I
was in the temple, I lived a virtuous life; and since I came out, I have not got married
as this is against the clerical laws ~ 346; 1928.)
21. He said, "Whatever I have told you, will happen according to Allah's law of
creation (346). This is easy for Him (to remove all the hindrances which are in your
mind and which perturb you ~ 199). Allah has also said that this child will not be
like other children. He will be from our side an embodiment of Rahmat for the
people; and a testimonial for truth and falsehood. (Whoever brings Eiman on his
Nabuwat will be on the right path, while the one who rejects it will be wrong.) And
this is already decreed by Us (that the child will be Our Messenger ~ 347).
22. (And gradually all impediments were removed and the fear of clerical taboos
vanished from Mary's mind. At the same time, in spite of warnings and intimidation
from the priests, one person agreed to marry Mary.) In time Mary conceived the
child and consequently they (both of them) considered it appropriate to move to a far
off place (so that the child would be born at a place where no one knew them; and
where they would be safe from the wrath and accusations of the priests).
23. And when the time of delivery came, the throbs of childbirth drove her to the
trunk of a date-palm tree. (An idle life in the temple; the pangs of first delivery; the
unfamiliar surroundings; and the absence of appropriate provisions and shelter,
caused Mary extreme bewilderment; and) She exclaimed, “O how I wish I had died
before all this and had become quite forgotten.”
24. (While she was in acute anguish there came a voice from beneath) O Mary!
Grieve not. There is a (pleasant) rivulet running below (and a bunch of ripe dates
hanging over you).
25. Shake the branch of the date-palm towards you and fresh ripe dates will drop
near you.
26. Eat (the fresh dates) and drink (the cold water from the rivulet) and then let
your eyes rejoice (at the sight of your baby). (As for your concern about accusations
or people's queries, you should keep a fast and) If anyone asks, you should inform
only by gesturing, that you have vowed to fast in the name of Ar-Rahman and will
therefore not speak to any person for the day.
27. (This is how Jesus was born. The parents took the child to a far off place. He
grew up there and was bestowed with Nabuwwah.) His mother then brought him
back to her own people, on a mount. (Firstly, the very act of leaving the temple and
living a married life was against all the discipline of the clergy. And now Mary
returned with Jesus, who started to bitterly criticise the conduct, character and selfmade laws of the clerical order.) So the people said, 'O Mary! You have come here
with something very strange. (Firstly your own conduct was against the norms of our
society; and now you have brought a son with you.)
28. They said, 'O sister of Aaron! Neither was your father a wicked man, nor had
your mother revolted against the clerical discipline. (With such a noble, religious and
law abiding ancestry, look at what you have done and the kind of education you have
given to your son.)
29. In reply to all these questions she (would not say anything herself but) would
direct them towards Jesus (to get their answers from him). (The elderly priests who
were extremely proud of their priesthood arrogantly asked) Should they talk to one
who till recently was a little boy in the cradle?
30. In reply Jesus said (There is no justification in this argument that because
you are older than me and I am young in age, that you should not consider it
appropriate to talk to me. Now listen carefully to what I say) “I am a servant of
Allah. He has given me the Book and bestowed Nubuwwah upon me.”
31. He has blessed me in every walk of life and has enjoined upon me to
establish, as long as I live, the correct system of Salat and Zakat (in place of your selfmade laws).
32. (You had been very critical about my mother's conduct. However whatever
she did was according to the true shariah of Allah. Therefore) I shall always be very
dutiful and respectful to my mother; and He has not made me a cruel and callous
person.
33. (According to your self-made laws, you regard my birth objectionable.
However, according to God, whose message I have brought) My birth is for peace;
my life will be for peace. Peace will be upon me till the day I die; and I will be in
peace in the life after death.
34. This is the true story of Jesus about whom people disagree so deeply. (One
group, namely the Jews, degrades him and regards his birth objectionable. On the
other hand the Christians aggrandise him as the son of God.)
35. It is not necessary that Allah should have taken for himself a son (to help Him
in running the affairs of the universe). He is far above such a requirement. Such is
the might of His powers, that whenever He decrees a matter, He only has to order it
to 'be', and it ‘becomes' (according to His plan). (He does not need any outside help
in carrying out His will and decree.)
36. (As regards the Christian belief that Jesus was God himself, there cannot be a
better argument than Jesus's own proclamation that) Verily Allah is my Sustainer and
yours as well. All of us should obey Him, for this is most certainly the (only) straight
and balanced path (350).
37. (This was exactly how he preached. However later on) Some of the factions
(amongst his followers) started dissenting amongst themselves. Regretfully for all
those who deny the truth, when that Day of Judgement comes it will be a difficult
time for them.
38. (Today by calling a Rasool, ‘God’, or ‘son of God’) They are perpetrating
zulm and are committing an error. But they will not be able to do this on the Day (of
Judgment). On that day how clearly will their ears hear and their eyes see! (5022)
39. Therefore O Rasool! You should warn them of the coming of the day of
regrets, when all matters shall be settled. As yet they are heedless because they do
not believe this.

regards

tlihawa

Salaam Fusion,
Surely there is a certain reason why Allah revealed this verse,

359 The example of Isa with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.

Have you ever questioned the creation of Adam? It's also against nature and all scientific evidences we have. If you did, what's your answer?

Here is an interesting quote from the book of Ezra,

2 Esdras
Chapter I

35 Your houses will I give to a people that shall come; which not having heard of me yet shall believe me; to whom I have shewed no signs, yet they shall do that I have commanded them.

36 They have seen no prophets, yet they shall call their sins to remembrance, and acknowledge them.

37 I take to witness the grace of the people to come, whose little ones rejoice in gladness and though they have not seen me with bodily eyes, yet in spirit they believe the thing that I say.

This is all part of God's plan. Since the era of the prophets, we no longer see God's miracles, but of course there are still those who believe in Him.

Peace

Fusion

Thank you for your excellent reply and yes I was aware of that verse and did look into that. What you are saying about birth of Adam if taken literally the meaning of verse then certainly it provides an analogy to birth of Jesus.
However I am not taking the verses literally hence my quest for more knowledge. Based on a several discussions happened over that verse and the Adam, some people say Adam could be a metaphor. meaning a term God used to explain the pair Adam and Eve that was chosen from the early humans and provided with the concept of intelligence and then we are all decendents of that pair.
For example the verses where Angels talk about bloodshed related to God mentioning of Adam, means that human like creatires did exists on earth but were not provided intelligence. Scientific evidences have shows humans ; call them neanderthal or homosapien lived onthe planet thousands of years before we can trace back Noah and Adam (date wise in view of Religions books).

I am just telling you what I have read so that I will not be taking each verse in its literal meaning. the verse you quote could also mean that there is no exception, for Adam or Jesus, human life is created from inanimate objects and process into human form after several stages. Does not mean GOD blows his mouth and Adama was created, be and it will be could mean according to God own principles else why mention of 6 days of universe creation or mention of God years as our 50K. it could be just be and it wil be in a jippy.

Please advice

Added.
Folks am not here to talk from the background of taditional or so called conventional islam. This I believe is a forum for Quranists or like minded, please correct me. hence talks like era of prophets is over,hence miracles stopped... certainly era could be over but for me everything happens in this world based on God Rules which he sets forth and no exception. Perhaps we are not aware and hence we humans term those things as Miracle . But if I were to believe like Prophet cut the moon into half, or the sea parted for Moses etc, then I would not be coming into this forum... because those are taditional beliefs and we were not supposed to ask questions. But in modern time, we are realizing that the creator has put everthing on this world follow a set of rules and patience .. otherwise writing on this screen and in a second my messgae is read by tens or hundreds of people is more miraculous than any of the miracle we have read in the books.

Cheers

Salaam Fusion,
Surely there is a certain reason why Allah revealed this verse,

359 The example of Isa with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.

Have you ever questioned the creation of Adam? It's also against nature and all scientific evidences we have. If you do, what is your answer?

Here is an interesting quote from the book of Ezra,

2 Esdras
Chapter I

35 Your houses will I give to a people that shall come; which not having heard of me yet shall believe me; to whom I have shewed no signs, yet they shall do that I have commanded them.

36 They have seen no prophets, yet they shall call their sins to remembrance, and acknowledge them.

37 I take to witness the grace of the people to come, whose little ones rejoice in gladness and though they have not seen me with bodily eyes, yet in spirit they believe the thing that I say.

This is all part of God's plan. Since the era of the prophets, we no longer see God's miracles, but of course there are still those who believe in Him.

Peace

musabxus

Salaam Fusion,
Surely there is a certain reason why Allah revealed this verse,

359 The example of Isa with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.

Have you ever questioned the creation of Adam? It's also against nature and all scientific evidences we have. If you did, what's your answer?

Here is an interesting quote from the book of Ezra,

2 Esdras
Chapter I

35 Your houses will I give to a people that shall come; which not having heard of me yet shall believe me; to whom I have shewed no signs, yet they shall do that I have commanded them.

36 They have seen no prophets, yet they shall call their sins to remembrance, and acknowledge them.

37 I take to witness the grace of the people to come, whose little ones rejoice in gladness and though they have not seen me with bodily eyes, yet in spirit they believe the thing that I say.

This is all part of God's plan. Since the era of the prophets, we no longer see God's miracles, but of course there are still those who believe in Him.

Peace

The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation)
2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers "We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to you is our destiny."

A translation of the Gospel - Matthew 44 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Keep on using other Scriptures as well! I hope more Quran only believers will realise that the Quran is not the only Scripture we have and that the others can give us Guidance and Light as well.

Anyways, i am thinking that Adam was created out of nothing with water and earth. Similarly was created Jesus? How else could Adam become 930 years old and did all human beings start with the lifespan of nearly 1000 years? Which was being reduced every generation because of their sins? Until God decided that human beings will not become older then 120 in general?
It shows that God can create both with a systematic way (evolution) and create from nothing ?

tlihawa

Please advice

Added.
Folks am not here to talk from the background of taditional or so called conventional islam. This I believe is a forum for Quranists or like minded, please correct me. hence talks like era of prophets is over,hence miracles stopped... certainly era could be over but for me everything happens in this world based on God Rules which he sets forth and no exception. Perhaps we are not aware and hence we humans term those things as Miracle . But if I were to believe like Prophet cut the moon into half, or the sea parted for Moses etc, then I would not be coming into this forum... because those are taditional beliefs and we were not supposed to ask questions. But in modern time, we are realizing that the creator has put everthing on this world follow a set of rules and patience .. otherwise writing on this screen and in a second my messgae is read by tens or hundreds of people is more miraculous than any of the miracle we have read in the books.

Cheers

Yes I can see your point of view.

Maybe this is not the answer to your question, but let me share my point of view.

Basically I divide the "battlefield of belief" into several sections. There is a spiritual section, economics, science and others. Although they are different things, but they have one thing in common.

God's words are always driven by things outside of the book itself

We can see in the case of mainstream Muslims, where they use hadiths outside of the Qur'an to gain their understanding of the Qur'an. Among the Jews we can see how the Talmud drives their belief, and among the Christians they believe in the consensus established by their religious leaders by making the divinity of Jesus.

This is a battle of faith in the spiritual area.

It is quite easy for me to get rid of the books of hadith to purify the understanding of the Quran.
I am not affected by the appearance of religious leaders who seem very religious. I only have one goal, to make God the only one in setting the law..

1826 Say "God is fully aware how long they remained, to Him is the unseen of the heavens and the earth, He sees and hears. They do not have besides Him any ally, and He does not share in His Law <hukmihi> with anyone."

This means that in the establishment of His law, he has no partners. Not prophets let alone just ordinary people.

Until I realized, that it is not only religious leaders in the spiritual field who are trying to change the God's Deen, or God's way.

Of the many scientists, not all of them are straight. There are scientists who bring benefits to other humans, usually in the areas of engineering and health, but there are also those who use their knowledge to mislead themselves and those who are easily fascinated by them.

Their opinions, or more correctly the conjectures of these scientists are most often used to drive the meanings of the Book of God.

Because their conjecture is considered as truth.

Very often I have encountered, that the verses of God are compromised with the assumptions of these scientists. Because most people believe, especially in spiritual circles, they are trying to compete to promote that their book is the most correct, which is closest to the allegations of these false scientists.

God in the Quran has warned of this,

2273 O people, an example is being put forth so listen to it those you call upon besides God will not create a fly even if they all gathered to do so. And if the fly takes anything from them, they will not be able to return anything from it. Weak is both the seeker and the sought!

This challenge of course does not refer to the religious leaders, because it is not their business to create a fly. There are still other people, who try to playing God, by issuing statements <conjectures> that are far from the information of Allah's books, and where most of us still believe in them, just because of their convincing and truthful appearance.

We are forced to compromise with their statements, otherwise the whole world will laugh at us, and so there is a fear that others will turn away from our beliefs.

688 So do not obey those who deny.

689 They wish that you compromise, so they too can compromise.

I never worry, even if my belief will go against the belief of the whole world.

For that I entrust to Allah as the creator of the universe, and also who witnessed the creation of the universe and its creatures, as the most correct information, which is poured into his books.

I've written enough of my thoughts about the creation of this universe, how long ago it was created, how our life began, and many of them are literal. I'm not trying to turn something literal into a metaphor just because it seems counterintuitive to what scientists think.

Sorry if this doesn't answer your question, because it is very difficult to answer a question if we are not on the same page. I just want to share my point of view.

Peace

tlihawa

Salaam musabxus,

Anyways, i am thinking that Adam was created out of nothing with water and earth. Similarly was created Jesus? How else could Adam become 930 years old and did all human beings start with the lifespan of nearly 1000 years? Which was being reduced every generation because of their sins? Until God decided that human beings will not become older then 120 in general?
It shows that God can create both with a systematic way (evolution) and create from nothing ?

there's a similar question has been discussed in here,

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611542.msg434561#msg434561

Just let me know your thought handshake

Peace

musabxus

Salaam musabxus,
there's a similar question has been discussed in here,

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611542.msg434561#msg434561

Just let me know your thought handshake

Peace

Thanks!

May God guide us and protect us.

Jafar

Therefor I will be asking few questions which are so called miracles mentioned in different holy books. I want to believe but I need to make sure that I start with a blank slate and move forward.

Starting with a blank slate it's a good start..

I recommend to step back and ask yourselves, whether all of the ideas/miracles that you stated, which I concur doesn't make any sense, is really important at all?
Given to the fact that all of the supposed events happened centuries ago .

Why then

Even 'believe' or 'not believe' matters?
Why somebody viewed it as very important to believe?

For example

Why believing or not believing in people that we never met (ie Jesus. Mohammed) really matters?
Why religion(s) see it as very important?
Specifically for Mr Mo, did he really asked everyone to testify that he's a prophet?
Why believing or not believe in a book compiled by a Caliph really matters?
etc..

Ponder on the foundational level of religion, because truly for those with a blank slate of mind, most of it, if not all, doesn't make sense at all.

Fusion

did all human beings start with the lifespan of nearly 1000 years? Which was being reduced every generation because of their sins? Until God decided that human beings will not become older then 120 in general?
It shows that God can create both with a systematic way (evolution) and create from nothing ?

Good evening, Thank you for your expanation.I like to ask why would god reduce the age of humans because of their sins? Can you provide some references ?

Regards

Fusion

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.I admire your the trust you have and hope to be near to the level you already achieved.

Regards

Sorry if this doesn't answer your question, because it is very difficult to answer a question if we are not on the same page. I just want to share my point of view.

Peace

Fusion

Starting with a blank slate it's a good start..

I recommend to step back and ask yourselves, whether all of the ideas/miracles that you stated, which I concur doesn't make any sense, is really important at all?
Given to the fact that all of the supposed events happened centuries ago .

Why then

Even 'believe' or 'not believe' matters?
Why somebody viewed it as very important to believe?

For example

Why believing or not believing in people that we never met (ie Jesus. Mohammed) really matters?
Why religion(s) see it as very important?
Specifically for Mr Mo, did he really asked everyone to testify that he's a prophet?
Why believing or not believe in a book compiled by a Caliph really matters?
etc..

Ponder on the foundational level of religion, because truly for those with a blank slate of mind, most of it, if not all, doesn't make sense at all.

You have made some strong stataments, may I ask what did you conclude after your own research ? Is there no sense of accountability in this life? If yes then we should learn from past? else just live the moment..and do not seek the knowledge..

Thanks

Jafar

You have made some strong stataments, may I ask what did you conclude after your own research ? Is there no sense of accountability in this life? If yes then we should learn from past? else just live the moment..and do not seek the knowledge..

I actually do not like to give conclusion, as conclusions varied depending on one's perspective.

But since you've asked, my conclusion as of now is that only The Infinite exist others than The Infinite (Thus finite or has limit/border) actually doesn't exist and merely a temporary illusion.

If you mapped the word "God" in understanding as "Infinite" then the word "God Alone" means "Only God alone exist".

That's the 'conclusion'.
Everything else is based on it as foundational understanding.

Now I will attempt to answer your question.

Q Is there any sense of accountability in this life?
This "life" is temporary, has a beginning and an end, thus the same thing also apply to "A temporal physical identity that you assume in this instance of life" and also the context of "life" itself, commonly known as "The Universe".

In this universe (which is merely one among many) there's a set of law.
Among those law are the "Law of Action".
What you do will be returned back to you, whatever it is.
The popular term is "What goes around comes around to you".

Some say it's a mechanism of "reward and punishment" while I view it as mechanism of "teaching".
Through it one will learn to differentiate between "Nice" and "Not Nice", "Pleasant" and "Not Pleasant", "Acceptable" and "Not Acceptable" etc..
As every 'thing' in this universe are available in opposite polarities. The IS and the NOT IS.

Q We should learn from past?
The past can explain the state of now, the past can potentially indicate what will happened in the future as there are recurring patterns.
Whether you want to learn about it or not it's up to you.

But in 'concluding reality' even time is temporal and doesn't actually exist but merely a part of the illusion. In such view every events actually happened at the same time.

Q Just live the moment and do not seek the knowledge
Living the moment is a good advice, when one can stay in the present, he/she will not have any worry about the future or any burden of the past. As any 'issue' that one encounter most definitely reside in the future or in the past.

As for 'do not seek the knowledge' or 'seek the knowledge' it's an option that one can choose. Seeking knowledge is a privilege, among the thing that you can definitely do in this (temporal) universe. Through exposure to both "IS" and "NOT IS" you will gain knowledge and able to differentiate the border that separated both 'conception' (whatever it is).

Yet as mentioned above, even the separation is also part of the illusion.

Fusion

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