Can we be misguided and how?
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Salam Truth,
Well I'd like to explain to you why I believe that the physical movements are indeed correct. It's my personal point of view
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if you are familiar with the narration in Sura 12, you will see Joseph telling his father about a dream, in that dream he says HE SAW objects prostrating to him. So seeing this means he saw some physical movement somehow, because I can't imagine him seeing them just obeying his laws or whatever weired interpretations which i read. At the end of the narration, he SAW his family prostrating in front of him and he thus had his dream confirmed. Seeing this means to me at least, he saw some physical movement.
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in Sura 24 we read about Houses (buyout) which God has permitted to be raised and his name is mentioned in these houses. I see no reason to understand this word as something else. In the Quran constantly we read about the word Buyout as meaning houses, and in the same Sura we read about houses which are not inhabited, where we can find benefits for ourselves.
Best regards,
sabo -
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i think most ppl r misguided presently .. look aroudn u .. different sects .. different beliefts .. some extremists .. some liberals .. what is this ? allah has not misguided us buit man has misguided himself .. haha
for eg.
how cna music be prohibited ?
how can social interaction between 2 sexes be prohibited ?
etc etc etc ...who agrees ?
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peace be upon you sabo,
- if you are familiar with the narration in Sura 12, you will see Joseph telling his father about a dream, in that dream he says HE SAW objects prostrating to him.
He saw the sun, the moon, and planets doing "sujood", on the contrary this is proof that it is not a physical act because none of the mentioned can physically prostrate, on the other hand they do submit to laws
So seeing this means he saw some physical movement somehow, because I can't imagine him seeing them just obeying his laws or whatever weired interpretations which i read.
How is that a wierd interpretation? Personally I see the sun, moon, and planets physically prostrating as not only physically impossible but absurd. Seeing them submit to him makes much more sense.
At the end of the narration, he SAW his family prostrating in front of him and he thus had his dream confirmed. Seeing this means to me at least, he saw some physical movement.
You need to begin quoting verses because it never said he SAW his family do "sujood", they submitted or heard and obeyed to his authority as king, confirming his vision that had shown such, there is no proof in either verses that "sujood" is physical
peace
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Salam all,
I pray the traditional method. I have not been convinced by the arguments against it. Traditional Salat brings me peace. The argumnets against the traditional prayer made me pay attention to many important aspects of Prayer that I have ignored in the past. Now, I make an effort to communicate with GOD as much as possible, something that has brought me more peace.
I admire your open mindedness, Truth and your humility. May GOD show us all the straightened path.
Hussein
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Peace all,
And this is the new username as promised. Some had found the nick 'truth' to be inappropriate a while ago and while I hadn't agreed totally I nevertheless see the point and decided to make the change voluntarily.
There's been some changes to my understanding lately after much struggle and I hope this can represent a new start of sorts. Thanks to everyone for always making me feel welcome.
Regards.
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Hello Idris,
How is that a wierd interpretation? Personally I see the sun, moon, and planets physically prostrating as not only physically impossible but absurd. Seeing them submit to him makes much more sense.
Ok if it makes sense to you, no problem.
You need to begin quoting verses because it never said he SAW his family do "sujood", they submitted or heard and obeyed to his authority as king, confirming his vision that had shown such, there is no proof in either verses that "sujood" is physical
I think that I said in the beginning of my post that it is my personal view, so its me who knows what I need and what I don't need ) But anyway I see from verse 12100 that what he saw in the dream was seen in the scene, and that's why he said to his father "that" is the interpretation of what I SAW. Again its my personal view, so peace )
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace servant, all.
I kinda liked your previous name, lol, at least it wasnt in capitals or anything, but oh well.
Back on topic, hlatif if you continue to do the traditional salat, do you still face in the 'direction' of Mecca? Because like I said above, it seems to be a major factor in the traditional method, unless you've chosen to do it any random direction?
For a while I was confused and not sure about this method of salat, I didnt know what verses to recite, to bow or not, which direction, I tried them all, and in the end I decided my actions in life were more important than phsyical prostations, and that my intent towards other people, animals and the land around me is what I would be judged on. I still do dua, I read the Quran online/offline whenever I have spare time, and mostly every night before I go to bed, and 'la illaha il Allah' and 'bismilahi rahmani rahim' is on my breath nearly every second of my day, I make a conscious effort to not associate anything with the abstract concept of my Creator, and pray to be guided to the straight path.
Thats all I can do for now, until I learn more knowledge. I'm at peace now, with one book as my reminder and God as my guide, even if there are still a few concepts that are debatable right now, I still feel much more free than before I stumbled onto FM last year, when I was found myself slowly becoming a sunni after years of non-interest in my family's faith. Now I've introduced my parents to the idea of God alone, and that nearly everything they believed in was false, and am pleased to say that their reaction was very positive, they're open minded people (logic thankfully works, i.e - God is not in a cube, our wardrobe does not make us muslims, etc), and I think eventually they will believe fully in what I believe.
God guides whom He will, the Most Merciful.
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Not sure yet, but it could be equated with when you wash yourself before you leave the house, a simply practical thing before you begin to 'salat' whatever the term may really be, obligations, commitments, etc. A main term I think that is derived from the word 'salat' is to 'follow behind' as in follow Islam, etc. And washing your face, arms and feet everyday makes you clean and presentable so you can go about doing that.
Like Natu I'm still not sure if we're to do salat through sunup to sundown or at sunup and at sundown, etc. The learning process continues...
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Salam All, beatnik,
I thank you for asking me your question. I will start by saying that the debate over SALAT was very healthy to me in many ways. The questions that were raised were all thought provoking. I was distressed by how easily some people labelled traditional SALAT as idol worship. This struck me as a form of fundamentalism, and was not productive to the debate.
I do like how you described the way you live your life. I think that it is beautiful and rewarding as you seem to feel. I try to do the same, as well as pray in a physical manner. I feel that the Prayer is the time when I separate myself from everything and have my personal meeting with GOD.
What do I face when I pray. I will answer by addressing two very important words (to me). the first is QIBLA. Literally speaking it means a front of someone or something is facing a front of someone or something. So, when I face a QIBLA, I am trying to be facing GOD, and that is the direction of gaining GOD's acceptance (traditionally in Arabic, what you accept you face and what you refuse, you turn your back to). Other AYAT talk about the WAJH (front/face) of GOD and how people try to face. To me, the front of GOD is the QIBLA and what people are aiming for, is the acceptance of GOD.
2115To Allah belong the east and the West Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.
Here, the translater used presence for WAJH. To me, I would use the word Acceptance for WAJH is the FRONT and is the sign of acceptance.The other word is SHATR. This word is the derivative of the root SH-T-R and it means Divide something in Half. So SHATR, although meaning direction, it really means facing the half of the earth where the MASJID HARAM 2144 is located and not really facing the MASJID itself, nor the KAABA. I live in the US so I face east. When I visit a mosque, I pray with the people in it and when I don't know where the east is, I face any direction, for GOD is all accepting.
That is what I do. I also like what you do. I am not here to judge anyone and I hope that no one, but GOD will judge me. I understand that we are all humans and therefore will make mistakes. I do believe that GOD will forgive those who make honest mistakes (me or others), as long as they are honest with themselves and with GOD and as long as they are open to his words.
Salam
Hussein
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Salaam Hussein,
What you wrote regarding Al Qiblah is really nice. I never gave it a thought! In my mind it has always been a synonym to Kaaba and that's all. Regarding Shadtra, personally, I use my compass wherever I go. Only last Friday I learned from our teacher in the Quran study group that as long as you are facing the right direction towards Mecca then that should be enough as that is what Shadtra means. It doesn?t have to be by the millimetre (the way I usually do it!)!
Although it is simple language I don't know why I never thought of it!?
So thank you for sharing that.Salaams
Taj
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peace be upon you All,
On the salat (slw) issue, I think its important not to go to extremes and end up missing the point.
Some extreme views might include
to think it must be completely non-physical,
to think it must be completely physical,
to think everyone must uphold slw in exactly the same way,
to believe they must face the "Kabba" in "Mecca" to the mm (if one performs the traditional interpretation of slw)**in truth, they will be facing space and not the "Kabba" in "Mecca". Also, basic pythagoras tells us that if one is off by one degree they can end up over a hundred miles off depending on where they are.
The basic meaning of slw is to go/turn towards in a positive/close manner. When one calls/petitions The God, it can be described as slw , just as non-believers can uphold slw by obeying the law of the reading/system , and lastly The God can send many slw upon us .
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
Thank you for your considered reply and hlatif's description of their salat.
I personally don't connect the qibla with salat per se as there is no direct connection anywhere. The qibla is in my view faced always at all times and in any place by a believer.
For physical salat the form is not as important as content. Using compasses to find a global direction is wildly innacurate; there are localised magnetic deviation differences and also geodesic considerations to take into account. The Earth is not the flat place that a Mercator projection makes it out to be.
What is important is that God says that to Him belongs the East and the West (and all directions between for that matter) but as they are the two that are mentioned then it is quite straightforward to face either east or west wherever one is. The exact direction is not important in my opinion only.
Peace.
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Peace TAJ n all,
Only last Friday I learned from our teacher in the Quran study group that as long as you are facing the right direction towards Mecca then that should be enough as that is what Shadtra means. It doesn?t have to be by the millimetre (the way I usually do it!)!
Forget millimetres, it's almost impossible to set yourself to face the whole city let alone the rock, especially if you're in a country as far as say, U.S. Example, in a mosque, none of the people in a straight line are facing the same point. And this is all, if the earth was flat to begin with! idea Just thought I'd mention this point.On the other hand, in regard to the heading of this thread... we are misguided in more ways than one. If we think we have the power to guide ourselves or each other... think again.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you Servant,
I also experienced the WITHDRAWAL, but that is over. Do not concentrate on your FEELINGS, they will mislead you, just like a drug addict who FEELS loss after not taking a hit.
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Do not concentrate on your FEELINGS, they will mislead you, just like a drug addict who FEELS loss after not taking a hit.
Good example! D Emotions can be misleading. Satan may inspire some fancy words, and we may take a liking to them, it does not mean that it's right. wink
- Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; God knows while you do not know.
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Peace All!
This is a very interesting thread and i find people go through the same questionnings as they progress (inchallah)
SalikaDC wrote
In the past, I conducted it the sunni way (without offering prayers to Rasulallah) and followed the prostration with study of the Qur'an. Since I have no proof that the WAY sunnis pray in Salaat contradict the Qur'an, i decided to do so
That's also what i used to do for about 15 years but wondering so often why i didn't "feel" it brought me something. Also, i used to get upset at my kids when they disturbed me, hide someplace in order to pray at my workplace aso...
About 6 months ago, thanks to free-minds, my understanding changed, and i passed from 5 to 3 and very soon 2 "salat" - and as long as i can do them in tranquility, i really feel they bring me a lot of strenghth and peace.
Now, i don't even do these regularly, but only if i can make my sessions in tranquility, no kids disturbing the concentration, no work obligations aso. Because if not, my salat would become again as mechanical as it used to be...and i now consider that the "rest" kids, work aso, is salat "commitments" too. These are obligations i have to respect and if the god does not need my salat, my kids need my attention and i need my job....
Truth/servant asked
Can I ask how many people still perform physical salat and whether it brings you too the peace that I feel in doing it. Please share as this is an important issue to me right now. Thank you all in advance.So yes, i still do physical salat when possible and it brings me peace. Prostrating, even if it can be understood in different manners, is not prohibited.
The qibla i try to establish before i pray is "inner peace", i use a technique making me feel how small i actually am in order to humble myself and try to feel part of the whole - physical direction is no issue any longer.
Never prayed in a "official" mosque though - too much idol worship. There is a sura in quran saying "do not pray in such a mosque" ! (Zenje or Marie please, your idea
hlatif said above
I understand that we are all humans and therefore will make mistakes. I do believe that GOD will forgive those who make honest mistakes (me or others), as long as they are honest with themselves and with GOD and as long as they are open to his words.
That's all i hope for!
Elke
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Salaam Zein,
Peace TAJ n all,
Only last Friday I learned from our teacher in the Quran study group that as long as you are facing the right direction towards Mecca then that should be enough as that is what Shadtra means. It doesn?t have to be by the millimetre (the way I usually do it!)!
Forget millimetres.I guess I should ?
On the other hand, in regard to the heading of this thread... we are misguided in more ways than one. If we think we have the power to guide ourselves or each other... think again.
But we never doubt ourselves. We always think that we are on the right track even if that track differed from the previous one!
Taj
