Can we be misguided and how?
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Peace be upon you Servant,
I also experienced the WITHDRAWAL, but that is over. Do not concentrate on your FEELINGS, they will mislead you, just like a drug addict who FEELS loss after not taking a hit.
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Do not concentrate on your FEELINGS, they will mislead you, just like a drug addict who FEELS loss after not taking a hit.
Good example! D Emotions can be misleading. Satan may inspire some fancy words, and we may take a liking to them, it does not mean that it's right. wink
- Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; God knows while you do not know.
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Peace All!
This is a very interesting thread and i find people go through the same questionnings as they progress (inchallah)
SalikaDC wrote
In the past, I conducted it the sunni way (without offering prayers to Rasulallah) and followed the prostration with study of the Qur'an. Since I have no proof that the WAY sunnis pray in Salaat contradict the Qur'an, i decided to do so
That's also what i used to do for about 15 years but wondering so often why i didn't "feel" it brought me something. Also, i used to get upset at my kids when they disturbed me, hide someplace in order to pray at my workplace aso...
About 6 months ago, thanks to free-minds, my understanding changed, and i passed from 5 to 3 and very soon 2 "salat" - and as long as i can do them in tranquility, i really feel they bring me a lot of strenghth and peace.
Now, i don't even do these regularly, but only if i can make my sessions in tranquility, no kids disturbing the concentration, no work obligations aso. Because if not, my salat would become again as mechanical as it used to be...and i now consider that the "rest" kids, work aso, is salat "commitments" too. These are obligations i have to respect and if the god does not need my salat, my kids need my attention and i need my job....
Truth/servant asked
Can I ask how many people still perform physical salat and whether it brings you too the peace that I feel in doing it. Please share as this is an important issue to me right now. Thank you all in advance.So yes, i still do physical salat when possible and it brings me peace. Prostrating, even if it can be understood in different manners, is not prohibited.
The qibla i try to establish before i pray is "inner peace", i use a technique making me feel how small i actually am in order to humble myself and try to feel part of the whole - physical direction is no issue any longer.
Never prayed in a "official" mosque though - too much idol worship. There is a sura in quran saying "do not pray in such a mosque" ! (Zenje or Marie please, your idea
hlatif said above
I understand that we are all humans and therefore will make mistakes. I do believe that GOD will forgive those who make honest mistakes (me or others), as long as they are honest with themselves and with GOD and as long as they are open to his words.
That's all i hope for!
Elke
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Salaam Zein,
Peace TAJ n all,
Only last Friday I learned from our teacher in the Quran study group that as long as you are facing the right direction towards Mecca then that should be enough as that is what Shadtra means. It doesn?t have to be by the millimetre (the way I usually do it!)!
Forget millimetres.I guess I should ?
On the other hand, in regard to the heading of this thread... we are misguided in more ways than one. If we think we have the power to guide ourselves or each other... think again.
But we never doubt ourselves. We always think that we are on the right track even if that track differed from the previous one!
Taj
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Never prayed in a "official" mosque though - too much idol worship. There is a sura in quran saying "do not pray in such a mosque" ! (Zenje or Marie please, your idea
7218 And know that all Masjids are for Allah. (Adoration, prostration, submission is due to Allah alone). Hence, invoke not anyone along with Allah. (917). (?Masjid? = Mosque = Places of worship = Collective acts of Prostration = Ways of Adoration = Obedience of Divine Commands = Centers of administering the Divine System).
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Peace again everyone,
I thought about the misguidance angle on this one and the responses from Zein, Kyle and mz357 regarding salat being a drug are interesting. I will start a new thread on it as I feel I have some important statements against such thinking.
Regards.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
My 2 cents on the subject
The purpose of Aqeemu Salat is remembrance and glorification of Allah
?I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the Salat for My remembrance.? (2014)
?Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in your Salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between. And Say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.? (The Message 17110-111)Salat is both physical and non-physical and is for the purpose of turning/ going towards Allah for His remembrance and glorification so that we can bring forth the purification within ourselves and be righteous.
THE PHYSICAL PARTS OF SALAT
IMO Salat especially when it is mentioned as "Aqeemu Salat" is definitely a physical act in addition to the non-physical aspect. Following are my different proofs from Al-Quran
- Even if Salat is considered to be "only" oration of Al-Quran, "oration" is a physical act. Especially when Allah has asked us to do it in a moderate tone thereby making it definitely "physical"
?Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in your Salat nor too quite; but seek a path in between.? (17110) .......... definitely "physical"
- We are supposed to "stand" for Salat, which is another physical act
?And if thou are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. ( 4102)
?The Angels called to him while he was standing 'Yusali' in the temple enclosure ?God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.?? (340)
?Preserve the Salawat, and the balanced Salat, and stand devoutly for God. But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.? (2237-23
And those who stay awake for their Lord, in prostration and standing. (2564)
As for one who is meditating in the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord. Say "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those who possess understanding will remember. (399)
The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving them; and if they stand up to salat, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little. (4142) ........ all definitely physical acts
- During Salat we are supposed to face the Qiblah which makes it a physical act as "facing" a certain "physical" direction is "physical"
?And We inspired to Moses and his brother 'Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and hold the Salat. And give good news to the believers.'? (1088 )
Now that the above ayat establishes that "Qiblah" is for the purpose of Salat, the following ayat is another proof of Salat being a physical act
?We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.? (2144)
In the light of 1088 the highlated parts of 2144 are "physical" acts
- Prostration as is mentioned in the following ayat is definitely physical
Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating, and they Say "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled." (1710
In the light of 17108 when we look at the following ayat it is obvious that the prostration in the following ayat is part of Salat making it a physical act
?And if you are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you (4102)
- Ruku' as mentioned in Al-Quran is a physical act
And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling (raki'an), and repented. (3824)
and this act of ruku' is part of Salat as per the following ayat
But your ally is God, His messenger, and those who believed who keep up the ?salat?, and give the ?zakat?, while they are ?raki?oun.? (555)
- Salat requires cleanliness.......why would a "non-physical process" require "physical" cleanliness?
?O you who believe, if you rise to attend the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. (58 ) ........... sounds as "physical" as "physical" can be !!
Some say that the following ayat is against a "physical" Salat
?Preserve the places of support, and the balanced Salat, and stand devoutly for God. But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.? (The Message 2237-23
They say that how can you establish a "physical" Salat when you are walking or riding. What they forget is that the "physical" act of oration of Al-Quran can be done while walking or riding. All this ayat means IMO is that in state of worry we dont have to stand stationary, or do ruku' or sujud but we can only recite from Al-Quran to remember and glorify Allah which is the main purpose of Salat.
THE NON-PHYSICAL PARTS OF SALAT
However I do believe in the non-physical aspect of Salat also which is to think and ponder and meditate on Allah's Words and to submit to them in our daily lives (the abstract meaning of sujud). So in my opinion the whole process of Salat is a combination of physical and non-physical.
THE INNOVATIONS AND FABRICATIONS
We are to definitely refrain from mentioning anyone other than Allah in our Salat or using phrases or words not prescribed in Al-Quran by the Great Teacher Himself (example the phrases "Allahu Akbar", "Ameen", "Assalamu alaikum" are nowhere in Al-Quran) as well as the folding of hands, and the traditional "bowing down" version of ruku' as well as many raka' and facing Makkah.
LETS NOT DIVIDE AMONGST OURSELVES
We should accept our individual differences of opinion of the exact interpretations of the different concepts in Al-Quran as long as we do not indulge in idol worship and remain sincere and open minded to the truth and remain united and not divide ourselves into sects. The minimum requirement to be successful is as following and as long as we all uphold that we belong to the same Deen
"Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve." (569)
Any comments and criticisms from the learned and the knowledgable would be highly appreciated. I just discovered God Alone about 2 months ago and am still in state of shock and repenting that I was misguided all my previous life. May Allah guide all of us.
Peace,
Tanveer
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peace be upon you tanveer,
Firstly, welcome to the forum.
I agree that slw has physical and non-physical elements.
I liked your analysis but I felt points 3, 4 and 5 were weak. I feel you cannot conclusively deduce what you deduced based on the evidence you provided.
In brief
3) if there is unity in direction, it doesn't necessarily have to be physical.
4) sjd = acknowledge
5) people give zakat while bowing? rk3 = incline/humbleMy view can be found on my site.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,
Thank you for your excellent comments. I am a big fan of your analysis of Al-Quran. I had already read your views on SLW before and your understanding of SLW is closest to my understanding on this forum. However a few points
- I agree that SJD can mean acknowledgement/submission and some ayat in Al-Quran support that meaning clearly
2219 Did you not see that to God submit what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and what moves, and many of mankind, and many who have deserved the retribution
However the meaning of a word in a book depends on its context and its usage in other places which support that meaning. In 17108 Allah is clearly describing a physical SJD in which when Al-Quran is recited to the people with knowledge, they fall to their chins SJD. The ayat following also clearly means a physical SJD
17109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
Falling on chins and crying are clearly physical acts. The 2 ayat following are clearly about SLW
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in thy contact-method, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And Say "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly.and in SLW we are required to recite Al-Quran which can lead to a Mumin falling on the chin crying with humility while holding SLW which is a strong proof that a physical SJD can be part of SLW.
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Ruku' in 3824 is definitely physical and is a physical act of falling down kneeling that a Mumin can perform while seeking forgiveness from Allah and repenting. 555 shows that a Mumin can hold SLW and bring forth Zakat while raki'oun. Here I agree that Ruku' could mean being humble also but my point is that a Mumin can also fall down kneeling to seek forgiveness from Allah and repent while holding SLW thereby proving that a physical Ruku' can be part of SLW. This clearly is a strong proof that if we do a physical ruku' while holding SLW it cannot be against Al-Quran, provided it is "falling down kneeling" and not the traditional "bowing".
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I agree that my Qiblah argument is weak as Qiblah can be non physical also as proved by excellent arguments by brother Ayman on a thread elsewhere, however brother Hlatif has an excellent argument on another thread based on the meaning of "SHATR" that we can face towards the half of the Earth containg the Qiblah thereby implying a physical Qiblah. However that would not explain which way to face if someone is on Earth exactly opposite the location of Qiblah whether to face East or West, or if someone is in outer space or another planet. IMHO the direction to face is not that important according to Allah
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he holds the Salat, and brings forth Zakat; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
Interestingly 2177 could be another argument in favor of non physical Qiblah as it clearly says that holding Salat is part of piety but facing east or west is not piety thereby proving that facing east or west cannot be part of holding Salat !!!!
Peace,
Tanveer
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peace be upon you brother tanveer,
Ahh, I see what you are saying a physical SJD can be part of slw. I cant really argue against that. I thought you were implying its obligatory.
i should have said the core of SJD is to acknowledge, its not equal to it. i apologise, i was being brief because i had little time when making that post.
Whilst 3824 may be a physical RK3. I see no such indication from 555, especially not while in the act of slw (if you feel in this sign its an act). This to me is extremely clear, unless I'm missing something.
I cant recall the shatr argument by brother hussein. I am studying the term bayt at the moment, and I guess I will cover qibla in that. 2177 is pretty explicit in stating a specific direction is irrelevant.
on a side note, im not a big fan of 'aqimoo' being translated as 'hold' (normally used in front of slw). it is a very interesting word and i believe the connotation is uphold/maintain, i.e. its an ongoing thing, 'hold' to me seems to imply a one off event. Brother Anwar wrote a nice bit about it, in which he included the meaning 'vivify'.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,
Thank you for your enlightening comments and clarifications. You are right with aqimoo meaning uphold. That is what I meant to write but in my hurry overlooked it and thank you for bringing that to my attention. It should be UPHOLD Salat instead of hold in my post.
You are also right that the Ruku' in 555 is not necessarily physical. My point is that while upholding Salat a Mumin can do the physical Ruku' of 3824 and fall down kneeling to seek forgiveness from Allah and repent, or uphold Salat while in a kneeling position and I dont think Allah will get upset over that and theoretically that will not contradict 555 either.
Finally 4102 is about upholding Salat and the words "and when they have prostrated" seem to imply that SJD is an obligatory part of Salat
?And if thou are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. ( 4102)
Thank you once again and God bless,
Tanveer
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peace be upon you tanveer,
there is no slw mentioned in 3824, simple. to say one can do RK3 in SLW will require other evidence, and is not justified by this sign.
Finally 4102 is about upholding Salat and the words "and when they have prostrated" seem to imply that SJD is an obligatory part of Salat
Brother, are you honestly suggesting the example given in 4102 is your typical run of the mill group salat? It is cleary a special circumstance, thus one cannot extend it to every salat. Furthermore, its an assumption to say sjd is physical, as in prostration, in this sign. this will require further evidence.
unfortunately, no one who knows Arabic grammar has presented this sign in a manner just stating what it states with no interpretation of their own. this has been annoying in terms of progressing on this sign.
salat (small s) for me.
Wakas
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Peace Tanveermd,
In 17108 Allah is clearly describing a physical SJD in which when Al-Quran is recited to the people with knowledge, they fall to their chins SJD. The ayat following also clearly means a physical SJD
17109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
Falling on chins and crying are clearly physical acts. The 2 ayat following are clearly about SLW
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in thy contact-method, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And Say "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly.and in SLW we are required to recite Al-Quran which can lead to a Mumin falling on the chin crying with humility while holding SLW which is a strong proof that a physical SJD can be part of SLW.
But those who perform the sectarian physical "sujud" ritual do not fall to their chins and instead they fall to their foreheads. The only time that "forehead" is mentioned with "sujud" is in Chapter 96. It is mentioned in contrast to "sujud".
So interpreting "sujud" in 17107 as physical prostration is fine as long as one falls to the chin and NOT the forehead.
You also have to ask yourself about the primary meaning of "sujud". Has someone who physically prostrates but disobeys The God done "sujud"? Clearly not. So the primary meaning of "sujud" is definitely "obedience to The God" and not "physical prostration".
See also 19 58-59 where "salat" and "sujud" are clearly defined by what they are not. So we hear "losing "salat"" being put in contrast of "arranging the signs of The God" and "following desires" being put in contrast to "sujud". This should leave no doubt as to what "salat" and "sujud" are.
As for 4102, the context is clearly war. What do leaders and soldiers do at the time of war? They prepare for battle. Mental preparation is very important. The leader presents the battle plan, motivates the troops by reminding them of why they are fighting and of the the proper conduct during war and gives them the necessary commands. In any military after a commander gives instructions or issues a command, what do they do? They say "YES SIR". In other words, they obey/acknowledge. This is natural.
Naturally, it would not be advisable to have the whole army listen to the commander at the same time instead of keeping an eye on the enemy. Hence, 4102 gives some common sense advice.
- Ruku' in 3824 is definitely physical and is a physical act of falling down kneeling that a Mumin can perform while seeking forgiveness from Allah and repenting. 555 shows that a Mumin can hold SLW and bring forth Zakat while raki'oun. Here I agree that Ruku' could mean being humble also but my point is that a Mumin can also fall down kneeling to seek forgiveness from Allah and repent while holding SLW thereby proving that a physical Ruku' can be part of SLW. This clearly is a strong proof that if we do a physical ruku' while holding SLW it cannot be against Al-Quran, provided it is "falling down kneeling" and not the traditional "bowing".
Here again we notice that like the traditional "sujud", the traditional "ruku3" is different since it is physically impossible to "fall in bowing".
Again, you have to ask yourself what the primary meaning of "ruku3" is. Has someone who bowed or kneeled but at the same time is arrogant and not humble done "ruku3" to The God?
Thank you for your excellent observation about "qiblah" and pointing out the sign in 2177.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salamun alaikum brothers Wakas, Ayman, all
Thank you for your excellent comments, criticisms, and clarifications. I do not think that the sectarian physical ritual prayer is the right way to uphold salat. I am just trying to make an effort to reconstruct how to uphold salat (specifically the timed salat of the mumineen) according to Al-Quran and exactly what the physical and non-physical components are. I agree that the primary meaning of sujud is to acknowledge/submit/obey and the primary meaning of ruku' is humility. So far the evidence from Al-Quran seems to indicate the following physical and non-physical requirements and components of salat
- Certain times of the day/night (2457, 11115, 1779). Evidence seems to indicate 2 times versus 3-5 times of the sectarians.
- The call to salat for group salat only (561, 6210). The call should use Quranic words only (sectarians include the word akbar and testify the messengership)
- Location could be temples or homes (2457, 340, 7219)
- Physical cleanliness and clarity of mind as prescribed in Al-Quran before salat (58, 444) (sectarians have a different version of wudu)
- Standing (preferable) to uphold salat (4102, 340, 2237, 4142) or ? kneeling position (? 555) (no evidence of the sectarian bowing position)
- Direction towards masjid alharam (institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden) (2144) which the evidence seems to indicate is non-physical (2177) (sectarians face their idol in makkah)
- Oration or recitation of ayat from Al-Quran in a moderate tone (17110,111). The oration should include Quranic words and ayat only and one should remember and glorify Allah only (2014, 17110,111)(sectarians are sometimes silent in group and almost always silent in individual salat and they recite certain words that are not part of Al-Quran, like akbar and amen, and they praise and remember certain messengers in addition to Allah)
- A physical sujud can be part of salat in which one falls to the chin and not to the forehead (17108,109)(sujud of sectarians is on the forehead)
- The whole process has to be performed with humility (ruku') and followed with submission/obedience/acknowledgement (sujud) (555, 399, 4102)
- During the process one should ponder/think/meditate on the signs (399)
It does seem there is no convincing evidence of a physical ruku' as part of salat in Al-Quran but maybe a physical kneeling position is allowed (it is impossible to perform a physical sujud on the chin without kneeling first). Also the physical direction is irrelevent and there is no evidence of multiple raka.
Only then will we be able to preserve and uphold ALSALAT ALWUSTA (the balanced/best salat) (2237) thereby bringing forth the purification (zakat).
I invite and request everyone to point out any errors and criticize and comment the above,
Peace and best wishes,
Tanveer
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Peace Hamza
"allahu akbar" is nowhere in quran. the only thing you can find is "dikhr allahi akbar" - the remembrance of god is great. But you do find the name alKebir.
To bow is stated but can be understood as to submit to the will of god. It's always a question of interpretation.
lk
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Peace Hamza
"allahu akbar" is nowhere in quran. the only thing you can find is "dikhr allahi akbar" - the remembrance of god is great. But you do find the name alKebir.
To bow is stated but can be understood as to submit to the will of god. It's always a question of interpretation.
lk
Peace Elke,
Thanks for the reply... D -
Salaamun alaikum brother JHamza,
According to Al-Qur'aan you FALL raki'an, so it cannot possibly be a bowing position. Ruku' is also mental meaning humility.
Check out the following link; in that article scroll down to the portion talking about ruku
http//free-minds.org/articles/hadith/refute2.htm
Excerpt from the above link
Physical ruku? is not bowing. According to the Quran one is to go down and sit on the knees. See 555 and 3824
But your ally is God, His messenger, and those who believed who keep up the ?salat?, and give the ?zakat?, while they are ?raki?oun.? (555)
How can one give ?zakat? while bowing? Therefore ruku? means to sit on the knees or kneeling.
?? he fell ?raki?an??? (3824)
One cannot fall into bowing, however, one can fall to his knees. Therefore the bowing position has no support in the Quran.
For the Kabeer vs Akbar debate with convincing resolution in favor of Kabeer, see the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3075
May Allah guide us all,
Tanveer
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peace everyone
i still feel the same way that servant does about salat. I used to do it the sunni way, and sometimes it did bring me great peace.
The reason for that, and i'm pretty sure i know it, was that i believed i had done something good. I had devoted my time and energy to God. That's why i felt good. I knew that if i performed the ritual, God would solve my problems and set everything straight.
And the reason that only happened somtimes is because other times i only did it because i had to. The intent wasn't there. I wasn't doing it to be close to God, i was just doing it because i had to.
So that feeling of peace wasn't because of that ritual, but because of me knowing that i had been close to God and God is there to help me no matter what.
so in the end, i dont think salat has to be somthing physical (like bowing down and reciting arabic words), it could just be like taking some time away from our everyday lives to admire the natural beauty of this world.
Or something like that. Anything that would bring us closer to God.But doing these things probably won't have the effect that ritual salat has because we don't have that strong belief in them that we had on the ritual.
the 'fact' that ritual salat brings 'peace' is ingrained in our minds, and it'll be hard to get rid of it.
