Are we true believers!

shukri

Producing a better surah will be subjective thus I think the challenge is to emphasise a point, and that point is it will force the challenger to read Quran, reflect and come to realise the Quran is sublime, rhythmical, eloquent, precise, logical, true, moves people, empirical, resonates with human life/psyche etc.

First of all I want to attach the translation of verse 223 by "Free-minds translator"
223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.

But the verse 223 only specify "one surah like this" and not the the whole Quran
Thus we must identify the surah and make a challenge based on this surah
And our challenge should be very objective in nature to avoid any subjective argument

See this link
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?
Here the miracle-19 plays it vital role in this challenge
Can any human produce the surah like this?
If they can, just prove it!
And we will be their witnesses in the hereafter

If they cannot, the subsequence verse after 223 i.e. 224 is waiting for them!
224 If you cannot do this and you can never do this then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.

Just my take
Salam
Thank you.

shukri

Brother jkhan,
Thanks for your response

good_logic

Peace All.
Once we come across Qoran ,then either we are attracted to it or repelled by it or side line it and misuse it for our own agenda. Each to their own role with Qoran.
GOD knows the believers, disbelievers and pretenders.

So who are the true believers?
Really anyone who claims are believers must be given the benefit of a doubt ,it is up to GOD to judge them, unless there is evidence about the claimer to the contrary.

For me,I feel Qoran is talking to me personally and I feel a real interaction with the Author. Believing GOD, sent Qoran-revelation-, is to believe every word of it, for example

Say, "Everyone works in accordance with his belief, and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path."
قُل كُلٌّ يَعمَلُ عَلىٰ شاكِلَتِهِ فَرَبُّكُم أَعلَمُ بِمَن هُوَ أَهدىٰ سَبيلًا

They ask you about the revelation. Say, "The revelation comes from my Lord(The Source of All knowledge) knowledge given to you is minute."
وَيَسـَٔلونَكَ عَنِ الرّوحِ قُلِ الرّوحُ مِن أَمرِ رَبّى وَما أوتيتُم مِنَ العِلمِ إِلّا قَليلًا

If we will, we can take back what we revealed to you, then you will find no protector against us.
وَلَئِن شِئنا لَنَذهَبَنَّ بِالَّذى أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ ثُمَّ لا تَجِدُ لَكَ بِهِ عَلَينا وَكيلًا

This is but mercy from your Lord. His blessings upon you have been great.
إِلّا رَحمَةً مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ فَضلَهُ كانَ عَلَيكَ كَبيرًا

Say, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Qoran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
قُل لَئِنِ اجتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالجِنُّ عَلىٰ أَن يَأتوا بِمِثلِ هٰذَا القُرءانِ لا يَأتونَ بِمِثلِهِ وَلَو كانَ بَعضُهُم لِبَعضٍ ظَهيرًا

We have cited for the people in this Qoran all kinds of examples, but most people insist upon disbelieving.
وَلَقَد صَرَّفنا لِلنّاسِ فى هٰذَا القُرءانِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبىٰ أَكثَرُ النّاسِ إِلّا كُفورًا

Or,for example

Truthfully, we sent it down, and with the truth it came down. We did not send you except as a bearer of good news, as well as a warner.
وَبِالحَقِّ أَنزَلنٰهُ وَبِالحَقِّ نَزَلَ وَما أَرسَلنٰكَ إِلّا مُبَشِّرًا وَنَذيرًا

A Qoran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.
وَقُرءانًا فَرَقنٰهُ لِتَقرَأَهُ عَلَى النّاسِ عَلىٰ مُكثٍ وَنَزَّلنٰهُ تَنزيلًا

Proclaim, "Believe in it, or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating.
قُل ءامِنوا بِهِ أَو لا تُؤمِنوا إِنَّ الَّذينَ أوتُوا العِلمَ مِن قَبلِهِ إِذا يُتلىٰ عَلَيهِم يَخِرّونَ لِلأَذقانِ سُجَّدًا

They say, "Glory be to our Lord. This fulfills our Lord's prophecy."
وَيَقولونَ سُبحٰنَ رَبِّنا إِن كانَ وَعدُ رَبِّنا لَمَفعولًا
They fall down on their chins, prostrating and weeping, for it augments their reverence.
وَيَخِرّونَ لِلأَذقانِ يَبكونَ وَيَزيدُهُم خُشوعًا
... and so on across every surah one reads/studies

The true believer feels GOD is talking to them directly and personally throughout the Qoran .
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

reel

Question Do we already have these basic signs!

Those are consequences of following the Book. Basically, you are getting yourself connected to God. It works like a compass or lets just say Alexa.

shukri

The true believer feels GOD is talking to them directly and personally throughout the Qoran .
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Blessed are those who have been bestowed by such a gift!

4251 No human being can communicate with God except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger through whom He reveals what He wills. He is the Most High, Most Wise.

Thank you.

shukri

Those are consequences of following the Book. Basically, you are getting yourself connected to God. It works like a compass or lets just say Alexa.

Alexa!
What is it? )

Thanks.

jkhan

Alexa!
What is it? )

Thanks.

3186 " ... And you will surely hear annoyances in abundance from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others. But if you are perseverant and be concious, then indeed, that is of the actions of determination"

So.. Don't worry about Jay smith.. He is one of those.

.....
Alexa.. Come on Google.. lol

good_logic

Peace..
If this needs clarification , quote
"The true believer feels GOD is talking to them directly and personally throughout the Qoran .

Then "It feels" just means " Every true believers is addressed directly and personally"..
GOD is unique and ever living. GOD can be addressed/ implored/communicated with/connected to... directly by us as He is everywhere. "La Tudrikuhu Al Absar. Wa Huwa Udriku Al absar"
Just feels not see for us..But GOD sees, hears and knows everything.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

reel

Alexa!
What is it?

Thanks.

This https//youtu.be/8bACuhV5RPM

Experiencing Quran is otherworldly though.

shukri

These signs accompany true believers

The believers are those whose hearts tremble when God is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited to them, their faith is strengthened, and they trust in their Lord (AQ 82)
Absolutely, God's allies have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve (AQ 1062)
Over it is nineteen. We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number
(a) to disturb the disbelievers,
(b) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(c) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(d) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(e) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people (AQ 7430-31)

Question Do we already have these basic signs!

My last words for this thread

Every true believer will be accompanied by various signs
These signs will serve as a guideline for us to verify ourselves
Feel grateful for those who are blessed (with the signs) and self-reflect for others

Life is full of difficulties and challenges
We can't escape from it
But for the true believers God promised for them the happiness in this world and in the hereafter

1062 Absolutely, GOD’s allies have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
1063 They are those who believe and lead a righteous life.
1064 For them, glad tidings/joy and happiness in this world, as well as in the Hereafter. This is GOD’s unchangeable law. Such is the greatest triumph.

If we no longer fear or grieve in this life, I think we are blessed with a great sign of true believers.
And this stuff was experienced by Abraham, our exemplary imam in the Quran.

No fear
2679 "The One who feeds me and waters me."
2680 "And when I get sick, He heals me.

No grieve
37 102 When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."

AND these signs (no fear, no grieve) are a climax for true believers, I suppose!

Ends.
Thank you to jkhan, Fusion, Wakas, Reel and good logic for participating in this discussion.
May God bless us!
So long!

Nom_de_plume

See this link
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?
Here the miracle-19 plays it vital role in this challenge

100% ignorant garbage for dummies
Simple digit flipping hide 18/19 fails show 1/19 hits
Zero consistency multiples posted with other chapters
Take any one parameter ~5 other chapters predictable
Apply same methods other numbers 7, 11, 13, 17, 23, 29
No 19 code in Qur’an any single parameter ~1/19 predictable
There’s no nice way to say it other than you guys are ignorant
Likewise you guys can’t read basic stuff suggest learn numbers

feminine and masculine eg nineteen morons (masculine)
تِسْعةَ عَشرَ بليداً

http//allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/p3/arabic-numbers/

shukri

Coincidence or Planned Design?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?

The combination of facts about the opening chapter of the Quran make it clear that its design is
not just coincidence. For instance, we notice in over a dozen facts a recurring pattern of the sura
number (1) and the number of each of the verses (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7). A simplified version of the
pattern is n = 1 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 5 * 6 * 7 *
Here, “*” is a placeholder for verse-level parameters, like the count of letters in each
verse. (These parameter numbers are always positive integers.) The resultant number “n”
is a multiple of 19.

You’ll see this pattern if you look at Fact 1 (1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7; in this case, the * symbol
represents an empty string) or Fact 4 (1 1 19,786 2 17,581 ... 7 43,6009; where the *
represents the number of letters in the verse followed by the gematrical value of that
verse).

There are only two possible explanations for over a dozen numbers following this
structure. One explanation is that “all this is coincidence and given a sufficiently large
sample of books you could get instances of facts whose probability of occurrence is one
in a million”. The other explanation, to borrow from Abdullah Arik’s “Beyond
Probability”, is that the Al-Fãtehah has been deliberately structured to result in this
remarkable mathematical system. Let us try to figure out which explanation makes more
sense using some simple probability calculations.

Suppose Fact 1 and Fact 4 (the first two occurrences of this pattern) occurred by random
chance. How do we calculate the probability of this occurring? To illustrate this, we’ll
further simplify a few things. Let us assume that the * parameters are single-digit
numbers (1-9). In that case, the resulting number “n” will have 15 digits and look like
1 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 5 * 6 * 7 *. Our next task is to calculate the probability that a randomly
chosen 15-digit number will satisfy the specified pattern and be a 19 multiple.

To calculate this probability empirically, we wrote a computer program that identified all
15-digit numbers satisfying the following sample conditions

The first number is 1 (for the sura number)
The second number is 1 (first verse)
The fourth number is 2
The sixth number is 3
The eighth number is 4
The tenth number is 5
The twelfth number is 6
The fourteenth number is 7
The entire number is a multiple of 19

Since we knew the first two digits had to be “1 1” (see conditions numbered 1 and 2 in
the list above), we told the computer to only consider numbers between
111,111,111,111,111 and 119,999,999,999,999 so it could complete the task faster. (If
we consider all 15-digit numbers from 111,111,111,111,111 to 999,999,999,999,999 we
get an even smaller probability, but that only strengthens the conclusion.)

Thank you.

shukri

Continuation

The computer found 251,735 such numbers out of a population of 8,888,888,888,888 possible
numbers (i.e., numbers that lie between 111,111,111,111,111 and 119,999,999,999,999).
Therefore, the chance of a number at random and by pure coincidence satisfying the 9 listed
conditions is 251,735 ÷ 8,888,888,888,888 or approximately 1 in 35 million! This is similar to the
odds of tossing a coin 25 times and getting heads every single time.

Based on this information, we can say that two such facts about Sura 1 coincidentally occurring is
like tossing a coin 50 times and getting heads every single time, i.e., 1 in (35 million) x (35 million)
or approximately 1 in a quadrillion. The more such facts that appear in a book or chapter, the
probability of them occurring purely by chance becomes even more minuscule. This probability
quickly approaches zero as we take additional mathematical facts into consideration.

Note a more general version of the pattern described, which considers aggregate parameters of
Sura 1, is
n = 1 # 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 5 * 6 * 7 *
Here, “#” represents sura-level aggregate parameters, e.g., the number of verses in Sura

An example of this pattern is seen in Fact 8 which starts with the sura number (1)
followed by the number of verses (7) in the sura, followed by each verse number and the
corresponding gematrical value of each letter within the verse. The additional
complexity implies an even tinier likelihood that a number will satisfy our sample
conditions by coincidence.

A reasonable person may therefore conclude that the structure of Sura 1, The Key, is by the
design of an Almighty Author, especially given that the mathematical structure encompasses the
entire book, not just the first chapter.

Ends.

Thank you.

jkhan

100% ignorant garbage for dummies
Simple digit flipping hide 18/19 fails show 1/19 hits
Zero consistency multiples posted with other chapters
Take any one parameter ~5 other chapters predictable
Apply same methods other numbers 7, 11, 13, 17, 23, 29
No 19 code in Qur’an any single parameter ~1/19 predictable
There’s no nice way to say it other than you guys are ignorant
Likewise you guys can’t read basic stuff suggest learn numbers

feminine and masculine eg nineteen morons (masculine)
تِسْعةَ عَشرَ بليداً

http//allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/p3/arabic-numbers/

Before you make statement saying 100% garb.. First reflect if you are believer, why there are Arabic letters in Quran..

Why in chapter 2 and 3 it starts with Alif Lam MeeM and not in chapter 4? Why... Is the author has some sense in placing those mere arabic letters? It arabic letters has healing power for hearts they read them? It someone included these letters on top of 29 chapters noy in middle or end just to show this book is different? Or if you are a believer bring the reason for these letters to appear in the Quran? Do you have any valid reason of your own, if so elucidate it.. But you keep denying people who bring even the most convincing pattern... Or you want even a patten which God even not placed in it?
If until the day of judgement those letters didn't mean anything Quran then isn't it waste placing them logically? Or else tell us in black and white. WHAT GUIDANCE YOU GOT BY THESE VERSEA WHICH SHUKRI SPEAKS OF.. or what importance for you these letters in Quran? If nothing then why you say what you don't know of... It you want to say some coincidences somehow have occurred in Quran but fools are after it...
Well people yes I can see most sunni Muslims nowadays so proud of talking about numeric pattern but they totally discard ehere it originated... And they only most bring inconsistent lies...

Anyway.. Be happy with what you are satisfied. After all believera only will get convinced as per the verse... So.. I dont mind you reject it.. Coz verse confirms your stance..

Nom_de_plume

The computer found 251,735 such numbers …

lol ignorant of computing, statistics, and basic probability they teach 10 year olds.

Before you make statement saying 100% garb.. First reflect if you are believer

Anyway.. Be happy with what you are satisfied. After all believera only will get convinced as per the verse... So.. I dont mind you reject it.. Coz verse confirms your stance..

Is it a test for a believer to determine if they are too dumb to understand simple numerology tricks? What was the test conducted 1400 or 100 years ago?

People who identify themselves as believers also believe that stoning women after childbirth or marrying 6-year-old girls is acceptable.

Did you follow my instructions and try any of those methods, such as attempting different combinations of letters (which failed), or adding different numbers to the front or back? For example, in Ch1, they achieved monotonous work, which provided them with a sense of "arousal" as a reward.

Try applying the same techniques for any single multiple to other chapters, and you will experience approximately six instances of "arousal" (welcome to the nineteenth addicts disease club!)

Soon, you will find yourself scrutinizing your own posts, timestamps, street addresses, and everything around you.

Similarly, apply any parameter, whether it be verses, words, or combinations thereof, and you will encounter 6236/19 instances of "arousal"!

shukri

lol ignorant of computing, statistics, and basic probability they teach 10 year olds.

The facts given to you plain and clear
And up to you to accept it or not
No compulsion in religion.

3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Thank you.

shukri

Code 19 in the opening statement of the Quran (the Basmalah ... بِسمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحمٰنِ الرَّحيمِ)
https//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp/bp.pdf?
Coincidence or divine design?

Some highlights quoted from the Introduction of the book for our reflection!
(1) Many of us feel that the questions in our minds about the existence of God would be resolved if we witnessed a miracle from God, similar to the ones performed by Moses or Jesus that we read about in the scriptures. We may also think that it is not really fair to our generation that God does not send down miracles any more. Yet, let us be serious. With all the scientific and technological advancements that we have today, who would believe in the ancient type of miracles such as healing the sick, or reviving the dead? It would be more logical for God to send down a miracle that is more compatible for the minds and the lifestyles of the people in this day and age. The lack of a modern miracle contradicts the idea that God is the Most Wise. It also gives the impression that God is not adaptable to our higher levels of thinking. Is God only capable of miracles for simpler, more ancient minds? Did God deliver His miracles to a few small generations, while our generation is greater in number, and there are even larger generations to come?

To be continued

shukri

(2) The objective of this book is to present to the reader a mathematical system embedded in a scripture from God. This mathematical system is so inter-woven, so interlaced, and so pervasive throughout this scripture that it is beyond the probability of coincidence or human manufacture, proving its divinity and therefore the existence of God. This built-in system has been recently unveiled through the computer analysis of the original text of the scripture. It is the perfect opportunity for people who want to reaffirm their belief in God, and do not want to accept anything on blind faith. With this scripture and the new physical evidence, a clearer picture emerges There is only one God who is eternal, all knowing, and merciful. The One God who is in complete control of every little detail in the universe, and the One who can make Himself manifest for all.

Ends.

jkhan

lol ignorant of computing, statistics, and basic probability they teach 10 year olds.

Is it a test for a believer to determine if they are too dumb to understand simple numerology tricks? What was the test conducted 1400 or 100 years ago?

People who identify themselves as believers also believe that stoning women after childbirth or marrying 6-year-old girls is acceptable.

Did you follow my instructions and try any of those methods, such as attempting different combinations of letters (which failed), or adding different numbers to the front or back? For example, in Ch1, they achieved monotonous work, which provided them with a sense of "arousal" as a reward.

Try applying the same techniques for any single multiple to other chapters, and you will experience approximately six instances of "arousal" (welcome to the nineteenth addicts disease club!)

Soon, you will find yourself scrutinizing your own posts, timestamps, street addresses, and everything around you.

Similarly, apply any parameter, whether it be verses, words, or combinations thereof, and you will encounter 6236/19 instances of "arousal"!

Just answer to my question that's more than sufficient.. Why arabic letters in 29 chapters and that too different letters 1 to 5 ... Just answer..no need any instructions from you... Keep it simple.. And answer.. If you don't have an answer.. It doesn't matter..

shukri

See this link
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?
Here the miracle-19 plays it vital role in this challenge
Can any human produce the surah like this?
If they can, just prove it!
And we will be their witnesses in the hereafter

I would like to see if anybody here willing to accept the challenge
Just produce your own surah with seven verses
And list down the in-built code 19 as been done by "Masjid Tucson"
And then give detail explanation for every fact you found one by one
The explanation is vital to avoid any junk code based on random permutation

Al-Fatihah means "the Opener" or "the Key"
Thus the challenge is to make a new opener or new key of the Quran
For the doubters of the Quran divinity and the mockers of miracle 19
Please accept the challenge!

Talk the talk is a waste of time
And it goes nowhere!

224 If you cannot do this and you can never do this then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.

Glory be to God
Lord of the worlds!

Thank you.