Seeking Clarity on the Quran's Preservation Over Centuries
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what is a scripture?
Is Qoran a scripture? Why?
Trying to answer these two questions leads one to check out the contents and then see for themselves.So even if one cannot go back to the time of the prophet or any time after that, they look at what they have now. Any Arabic copy of Qoran available today will do.
So what does the content of Qoran tell the student of Qoran now?Here is some small examples of the letters, words and verses composition of some of the verses of this Qoran
Pay attention to the words,subject and style and compare with human authorsوَذَرِ الَّذينَ اتَّخَذوا دينَهُم لَعِبًا وَلَهوًا وَغَرَّتهُمُ الحَيوٰةُ الدُّنيا وَذَكِّر بِهِ أَن تُبسَلَ نَفسٌ بِما كَسَبَت لَيسَ لَها مِن دونِ اللَّهِ وَلِىٌّ وَلا شَفيعٌ وَإِن تَعدِل كُلَّ عَدلٍ لا يُؤخَذ مِنها أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ أُبسِلوا بِما كَسَبوا لَهُم شَرابٌ مِن حَميمٍ وَعَذابٌ أَليمٌ بِما كانوا يَكفُرونَ
قُل أَنَدعوا مِن دونِ اللَّهِ ما لا يَنفَعُنا وَلا يَضُرُّنا وَنُرَدُّ عَلىٰ أَعقابِنا بَعدَ إِذ هَدىٰنَا اللَّهُ كَالَّذِى استَهوَتهُ الشَّيٰطينُ فِى الأَرضِ حَيرانَ لَهُ أَصحٰبٌ يَدعونَهُ إِلَى الهُدَى ائتِنا قُل إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّهِ هُوَ الهُدىٰ وَأُمِرنا لِنُسلِمَ لِرَبِّ العٰلَمينَ
وَأَن أَقيمُوا الصَّلوٰةَ وَاتَّقوهُ وَهُوَ الَّذى إِلَيهِ تُحشَرونَ
وَهُوَ الَّذى خَلَقَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالأَرضَ بِالحَقِّ وَيَومَ يَقولُ كُن فَيَكونُ قَولُهُ الحَقُّ وَلَهُ المُلكُ يَومَ يُنفَخُ فِى الصّورِ عٰلِمُ الغَيبِ وَالشَّهٰدَةِ وَهُوَ الحَكيمُ الخَبيرُ
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One can ignore the interpretation of the above verses used below and interpret/translate themselvesYou shall disregard those who take their religion in vain, as if it is a social function, and are totally absorbed in this worldly life. Remind with this (Qoran), lest a soul may suffer the consequences of its evil earnings. It has none beside God as a Lord and Master, nor an intercessor. If it could offer any kind of ransom, it would not be accepted. They suffer the consequences of the evil works they earn; they have incurred a painful retribution because of their disbelief.
Say, "Shall we implore, beside God, what possesses no power to benefit us or hurt us, and turn back on our heels after God has guided us? In that case, we would join those possessed by the devils, and rendered utterly confused, while their friends try to save them `Stay with us on the right path.' " Say, "God's guidance is the right guidance. We are commanded to submit to the Lord of the universe.
"And to observe The Salat and to reverence Him - He is the One before whom you will be summoned (for the reckoning)."
He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, truthfully. Whenever He says, "Be," it is. His word is the absolute truth. All sovereignty belongs to Him the day the horn is blown. Knower of all secrets and declarations, He is the Most Wise, the Cognizant.
And these verses
وَما قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدرِهِ إِذ قالوا ما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلىٰ بَشَرٍ مِن شَىءٍ قُل مَن أَنزَلَ الكِتٰبَ الَّذى جاءَ بِهِ موسىٰ نورًا وَهُدًى لِلنّاسِ تَجعَلونَهُ قَراطيسَ تُبدونَها وَتُخفونَ كَثيرًا وَعُلِّمتُم ما لَم تَعلَموا أَنتُم وَلا ءاباؤُكُم قُلِ اللَّهُ ثُمَّ ذَرهُم فى خَوضِهِم يَلعَبونَ
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وَهٰذا كِتٰبٌ أَنزَلنٰهُ مُبارَكٌ مُصَدِّقُ الَّذى بَينَ يَدَيهِ وَلِتُنذِرَ أُمَّ القُرىٰ وَمَن حَولَها وَالَّذينَ يُؤمِنونَ بِالـٔاخِرَةِ يُؤمِنونَ بِهِ وَهُم عَلىٰ صَلاتِهِم يُحافِظونَوَمَن أَظلَمُ مِمَّنِ افتَرىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا أَو قالَ أوحِىَ إِلَىَّ وَلَم يوحَ إِلَيهِ شَىءٌ وَمَن قالَ سَأُنزِلُ مِثلَ ما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَو تَرىٰ إِذِ الظّٰلِمونَ فى غَمَرٰتِ المَوتِ وَالمَلٰئِكَةُ باسِطوا أَيديهِم أَخرِجوا أَنفُسَكُمُ اليَومَ تُجزَونَ عَذابَ الهونِ بِما كُنتُم تَقولونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ غَيرَ الحَقِّ وَكُنتُم عَن ءايٰتِهِ تَستَكبِرونَ
وَلَقَد جِئتُمونا فُرٰدىٰ كَما خَلَقنٰكُم أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَتَرَكتُم ما خَوَّلنٰكُم وَراءَ ظُهورِكُم وَما نَرىٰ مَعَكُم شُفَعاءَكُمُ الَّذينَ زَعَمتُم أَنَّهُم فيكُم شُرَكٰؤُا۟ لَقَد تَقَطَّعَ بَينَكُم وَضَلَّ عَنكُم ما كُنتُم تَزعُمونَ
إِنَّ اللَّهَ فالِقُ الحَبِّ وَالنَّوىٰ يُخرِجُ الحَىَّ مِنَ المَيِّتِ وَمُخرِجُ المَيِّتِ مِنَ الحَىِّ ذٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ فَأَنّىٰ تُؤفَكونَ
فالِقُ الإِصباحِ وَجَعَلَ الَّيلَ سَكَنًا وَالشَّمسَ وَالقَمَرَ حُسبانًا ذٰلِكَ تَقديرُ العَزيزِ العَليمِ
وَهُوَ الَّذى جَعَلَ لَكُمُ النُّجومَ لِتَهتَدوا بِها فى ظُلُمٰتِ البَرِّ وَالبَحرِ قَد فَصَّلنَا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يَعلَمونَ
وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنشَأَكُم مِن نَفسٍ وٰحِدَةٍ فَمُستَقَرٌّ وَمُستَودَعٌ قَد فَصَّلنَا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يَفقَهونَ
وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّماءِ ماءً فَأَخرَجنا بِهِ نَباتَ كُلِّ شَىءٍ فَأَخرَجنا مِنهُ خَضِرًا نُخرِجُ مِنهُ حَبًّا مُتَراكِبًا وَمِنَ النَّخلِ مِن طَلعِها قِنوانٌ دانِيَةٌ وَجَنّٰتٍ مِن أَعنابٍ وَالزَّيتونَ وَالرُّمّانَ مُشتَبِهًا وَغَيرَ مُتَشٰبِهٍ انظُروا إِلىٰ ثَمَرِهِ إِذا أَثمَرَ وَيَنعِهِ إِنَّ فى ذٰلِكُم لَـٔايٰتٍ لِقَومٍ يُؤمِنونَ
Again this interpretation can be ignored and do your own
They never valued God as He should be valued. Thus, they said, "God does not reveal anything to any human being." Say, "Who then revealed the scripture that Moses brought, with light and guidance for the people?" You put it down on paper to proclaim it, while concealing a lot of it. You were taught what you never knew - you and your parents. Say, "God (is the One who revealed it)," then leave them in their heedlessness, playing.
This too is a blessed scripture that we have revealed, confirming the previous scriptures, that you may warn the most important community* and all those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter will believe in this (scripture), and will observe the Salat
Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies and attributes them to God, or says, "I have received divine inspiration," when no such inspiration was given to him, or says, "I can write the same as God's revelations?" If only you could see the transgressors at the time of death! The angels extend their hands to them, saying, "Let go of your souls. Today, you have incurred a shameful retribution for saying about God other than the truth, and for being too arrogant to accept His revelations.
"You have come back to us as individuals, just as we created you the first time, and you have left behind what we provided for you. We do not see with you the intercessors that you idolized and claimed that they will help you. All ties among you have been severed; the idols you set up have abandoned you."
God is the One who causes the grains and the seeds to crack and germinate. He produces the living from the dead, and the dead from the living. Such is God; how could you deviate!
At the crack of dawn, He causes the morning to emerge. He made the night still, and He rendered the sun and the moon to serve as calculation devices. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
And He is the One who made the stars to guide you during the darkness, on land and on sea. We thus clarify the revelations for people who know.
He initiated you from one person, and decided your path, as well as your final destiny. We thus clarify the revelations for people who understand.
He is the One who sends down from the sky water, whereby we produce all kinds of plants. We produce from the green material multitudes of complex grains, palm trees with hanging clusters, and gardens of grapes, olives and pomegranate; fruits that are similar, yet dissimilar. Note their fruits as they grow and ripen. These are signs for people who believe.
Yes , a very simple logic is to check and study the contents of a claimed scripture . Then you should decide for yourself if the scripture is really from GOD or not.
SO is Qoran a scripture from GOD? why or why not? You decide for yourself by doing your own check /study.
Yes even if others say it is and preserved or it is not.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
A friend recently shared their views on the Qur'an and its compilation, sparking a curiosity in me that I'd like to discuss here. They suggested that while the original divine revelations to Prophet Muhammad were the pure truth, the text might have been subject to tampering and distortion after his death. This brings up questions about the authenticity of the current Qur'an, especially considering that the compilation we have today was overseen by the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, decades after the Prophet's death. Given the historical context and the possibility of alterations by early Islamic leaders, whom some historical accounts suggest had varying degrees of sincerity and faithfulness, how can we reconcile these concerns with our faith in the Qur'an's authenticity?
Peace Fusion,
The Quran is a personal guide to live a righteous life. A teaching to direct us to peace.
It covers all aspects of our existence. We learn how to live and engage with one another.
For those who say something is missing my question is "what are they looking for"? Yes we must be
careful of the different translations and learn the true meanings of its ayats because different
a translators may have a bias or an agenda. But as a whole the book can put one the path
intended.Yes, This is an honorable Quran. In a protected book. None can grasp it except the sincere. A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
God bless
peace
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Peace Fusion,
God bless
peace
That is precisely my point; it is not about something missing in the book. Rather, it's about how some people are hell-bent on imposing their own understanding of the verses on others, insisting that only their interpretation is correct. They debate their logic until they 'win' the argument. I believe that if one understands the Quran to the best of their ability, with a humble heart, the Lord will guide them. And if someone gets something wrong, it's not the end of the world, despite how some advocates might make it seem.
“O Messenger of Allah! It is a great Mercy of God that you are gentle and kind towards them; for, had you been harsh and hard-hearted, they would all have broken away from you.”
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Peace Fusion.
Put your mind at peace. Seek a way to your Lord and only worry about the relationship with GOD Alone.
Every other creation will answer to GOD Alone like you.Whoever thinks they have the right interpretation and the truth it is for their own self, we are not accountable to them nor are they responsible for us.
GOD guides or otherwise.
GOD gave the freedom of choice to every individual to believe or otherwise.
GOD has not made any person our wakil nor asked anyone to force people to follow them.Are those who think they have the truth going to force people to their truth?
Is GOD Alone not sufficient for His servants?
Enjoy the conversation with others and only take GOD seriously for your salvation.
GOD bless you.
Peace brother. -
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I appreciate how you've articulated your thoughts in a manner that resonates with my own views, rather than using strong, imposing statements....
It's refreshing to engage in a discussion where ideas are expressed thoughtfully without personal attacks. I agree that faith plays a significant role in our interpretations and beliefs, and it's important to recognize that as we continue to discuss and learn from each other in this forum.Basing ideas strictly on manuscripts, than the oldest one we know of is the Birmingham Quran manuscript which is a single parchment having Surah 19 to Surah 20. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript. And guess what? This manuscript is not in the same qirat (reading) that is most popular today, the reading of Hafs.
There is not enough of the Birmingham manuscript to determine which reading it might be in, but it is safe to say from the 10 canonized readings, it does not represent 9 of them, which includes the most popular reading today (Hafs).
How do we know it does not represent 9/10th of the readers? Due to one verse 18.26 - it's written as TUSHRIK and not YUSHRIK like 9 out of the 10 readers recite it.
We disqualified it being from 9 people just by a single letter change Ta.
But we don't have enough to know if it is in the 10th person. It could be a totally different reading that has not been canonized. Imagine that?
Most early manuscripts are not in Hafs reading. They are either in Warsh or Abu Amr. Hafs was not popular in the early days.
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Basing ideas strictly on manuscripts, than the oldest one we know of is the Birmingham Quran manuscript which is a single parchment having Surah 19 to Surah 20. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript. And guess what? This manuscript is not in the same qirat (reading) that is most popular today, the reading of Hafs.
There is not enough of the Birmingham manuscript to determine which reading it might be in, but it is safe to say from the 10 canonized readings, it does not represent 9 of them, which includes the most popular reading today (Hafs).
How do we know it does not represent 9/10th of the readers? Due to one verse 18.26 - it's written as TUSHRIK and not YUSHRIK like 9 out of the 10 readers recite it.
We disqualified it being from 9 people just by a single letter change Ta.
But we don't have enough to know if it is in the 10th person. It could be a totally different reading that has not been canonized. Imagine that?
Most early manuscripts are not in Hafs reading. They are either in Warsh or Abu Amr. Hafs was not popular in the early days.
Salaam
Hafs died in 796 CE and Warsh died in 812 CE. It doesn't appear to be the oldest (perhaps the skins were washed anew and reused years later); the writing is too fresh; colored chapter separations added, and earliest scribes seldom used 'alif' in the middle of words, and few errors are easily detected; these are part of the same manuscript.
1817-31 and 1991 to 2040
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/2278/page/1r?sura=20&verse=11035 to 11110 and 20112 to 2327
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/158/page/82v?sura=22&verse=121109 توعدون tū
adūna (thou promise being) (2nd wa is missing توعدن) 21103 توعدون tūadūna correct in prior page see 5th line from bottom last word
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/158/page/82r?sura=22&verse=1#manuscript_pageAlso in many older manuscripts (no issue)
222 سكرىا drunkenness (with alif sukārán)
222 بسكرىا in drunkenness (with alif bisukārán)Likewise, easily identified scribal errors (see context).
223-4 and among the people who argued in (concerning) Allah in other than knowledge and followed every devil (denotes evil person) rebellious written (decreed) upon him that he من (man/who) (word missing?) befriends him so indeed he misguided him and guided him to punishment the blaze
Even so, there are many old manuscripts that we can piece together.
Ms. or. fol. 4313 and qāf 47 are same and likely oldest 602-654 CE 95.4% probability.
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/73/page/13r?sura=4&verse=12
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/15/page/2r?sura=4&verse=176
Some words or letters are critical, e.g., an extra 'meem,' or else the math falls apart.
412 and for you half ما mā/what left spouses yours
412 and for them the fourth مما mimmā/from what left you4176 so for her half ما mā/what left
4176 so to them dual the third twice (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما mimmā/from what left -
As I said, Birmingham manuscript is neither Hafs or Warsh. It is undetermined.
Not all manuscripts are written based on qirat, that's why there are differences in wording.
There is no math involved.
Salaam
Hafs died in 796 CE and Warsh died in 812 CE. It doesn't appear to be the oldest (perhaps the skins were washed anew and reused years later); the writing is too fresh; colored chapter separations added, and earliest scribes seldom used 'alif' in the middle of words, and few errors are easily detected; these are part of the same manuscript.
1817-31 and 1991 to 2040
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/2278/page/1r?sura=20&verse=11035 to 11110 and 20112 to 2327
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/158/page/82v?sura=22&verse=121109 توعدون tū
adūna (thou promise being) (2nd wa is missing توعدن) 21103 توعدون tūadūna correct in prior page see 5th line from bottom last word
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/158/page/82r?sura=22&verse=1#manuscript_pageAlso in many older manuscripts (no issue)
222 سكرىا drunkenness (with alif sukārán)
222 بسكرىا in drunkenness (with alif bisukārán)Likewise, easily identified scribal errors (see context).
223-4 and among the people who argued in (concerning) Allah in other than knowledge and followed every devil (denotes evil person) rebellious written (decreed) upon him that he من (man/who) (word missing?) befriends him so indeed he misguided him and guided him to punishment the blaze
Even so, there are many old manuscripts that we can piece together.
Ms. or. fol. 4313 and qāf 47 are same and likely oldest 602-654 CE 95.4% probability.
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/73/page/13r?sura=4&verse=12
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/15/page/2r?sura=4&verse=176
Some words or letters are critical, e.g., an extra 'meem,' or else the math falls apart.
412 and for you half ما mā/what left spouses yours
412 and for them the fourth مما mimmā/from what left you4176 so for her half ما mā/what left
4176 so to them dual the third twice (1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3) مما mimmā/from what left -
As I said, Birmingham manuscript is neither Hafs or Warsh. It is undetermined.
Not all manuscripts are written based on qirat, that's why there are differences in wording.
There is no math involved.
Sure, there is math involved in inheritance. Misplacing a meem throws the math off, which you can't qirat your way out of.
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Basing ideas strictly on manuscripts, than the oldest one we know of is the Birmingham Quran manuscript which is a single parchment having Surah 19 to Surah 20. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript. And guess what? This manuscript is not in the same qirat (reading) that is most popular today, the reading of Hafs.
There is not enough of the Birmingham manuscript to determine which reading it might be in, but it is safe to say from the 10 canonized readings, it does not represent 9 of them, which includes the most popular reading today (Hafs).
How do we know it does not represent 9/10th of the readers? Due to one verse 18.26 - it's written as TUSHRIK and not YUSHRIK like 9 out of the 10 readers recite it.
We disqualified it being from 9 people just by a single letter change Ta.
But we don't have enough to know if it is in the 10th person. It could be a totally different reading that has not been canonized. Imagine that?
Most early manuscripts are not in Hafs reading. They are either in Warsh or Abu Amr. Hafs was not popular in the early days.
Dear Euphoric,
You raise several intriguing points about the Birmingham Quran manuscript. Indeed, this manuscript, while not a complete copy of the Quran, contains only parts of Surahs 18 to 20. Despite this, its importance cannot be understated, particularly because the radiocarbon dating suggests that it could have been written during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad or shortly thereafter, within the period of the Caliphs.
This timeframe is particularly significant as it supports historical accounts that the Quran was being compiled and written down in textual form during this early period. Such findings lend credence to the theory that the process may have been overseen or even initiated by the Prophet himself, reinforcing traditional Islamic narratives about the Quran's preservation.
As for the manuscript's differences in qirat, these do not suggest any forgery or corruption of the text. Instead, they highlight the richness of the Quranic tradition and the existence of various readings (qirat), which were eventually canonized. These variations are a testament to the meticulous care with which the Quran was transmitted and preserved, reflecting both divine oversight and human dedication.
I believe the historical destruction of variant Quranic texts to standardize the Quran under the Caliph Uthman is well-documented and illustrates a critical moment in Islamic history. This act was aimed at preserving unity and preventing sectarian disputes, ensuring that one standardized text was used for all Muslims.
Furthermore, I believe that divine providence in the preservation of the Quran through human history are thought-provoking. This manuscript not only enriches our understanding of Islamic history but also enhances our appreciation for the profound and divinely guided efforts of those who preserved the Quran through the centuries. It’s fascinating to consider both the historical and the spiritual dimensions of the Quran's preservation and the role it plays in the faith of millions today.
Added
I just realized the reply from Bajram about Birmingham Quran manuscript's age due to the fresh appearance of the script and the use of colored chapter separators. Your suggestion that the parchment might have been washed and reused is a compelling one, however you did mention older manuscripts like Ms. or. fol. 4313 and qāf 47, which are thought to date back to the early 7th century. -
Interesting.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hb8PMx34iY
https//ibb.co/KrF5Typ
So if I understand correctly, The copies of the Quran that Caliph Uthman ordered to be burned were not related to the ten Qira'at styles we know today. Instead, those copies represented variations in the text itself, potentially including differences in word choice, arrangement, and dialect that were more pronounced and significant than the variations found in the Qira'at.
I found the following narrative
The story of Caliph Uthman ibn Affan burning copies of the Quran is a significant event in Islamic history, tied to the standardization of the Quranic text during his caliphate (644-656 AD). This episode is directly linked to the efforts to maintain the purity and consistency of the Quran as Islam expanded across diverse linguistic and cultural regions.Background and Motivation
After the death of Prophet Muhammad, Islam spread rapidly across vast territories, encompassing many different linguistic groups. This rapid expansion brought about variations in the recitation and transcription of the Quran, as converts began to recite and copy the Quranic text in their own dialects. To address the emerging discrepancies and to prevent any doctrinal splits, a standardized version of the Quran became necessary.Uthman’s Standardization Effort
Uthman, the third Caliph of Islam, observed that these dialectal differences were leading to disputes among Muslims about the correct recitation of the Quran. To preserve the unity of the Muslim Ummah (community) and to ensure the authenticity of the Quranic text, Uthman commissioned a committee, led by Zaid ibn Thabit—who had also been part of an earlier compilation project under the first Caliph, Abu Bakr—to compile a standard text of the Quran. This committee was instructed to prepare the text in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect of the Prophet Muhammad and considered the most authoritative.The Burning of Other Copies
Once the standardized copies were prepared and approved, Uthman ordered that all other Quranic manuscripts and materials that differed from this standardized version be collected and burned. This drastic measure was taken to eliminate conflicting versions of the Quran that could lead to division and misinterpretation among Muslims. The decision to burn these other copies was aimed solely at ensuring doctrinal consistency, not suppressing legitimate variations in recitation styles.Impact and Legacy
Uthman’s actions were crucial in preserving a single, unified text of the Quran. The burning of the non-standard manuscripts is viewed within Islamic tradition as a necessary act to maintain the integrity and authenticity of the Quranic text across the expanding Islamic empire. The standardized text from Uthman’s time forms the basis for the Quran as it is known today, and all traditional Qira'at (canonical recitations) are derived from this text. These Qira'at allow for slight variations in pronunciation and recitation but do not alter the text itself.For reference, you can look into traditional Islamic historical sources like "The History of the Quranic Text from Revelation to Compilation" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'zami, which provides detailed insights into the events surrounding the compilation and standardization of the Quran. Additionally, Ibn Sa'd's "Tabaqat al-Kubra" and al-Tabari's "History of the Prophets and Kings" also discuss these events and their significance. These texts are widely respected and used as primary references for the historical study of the early Islamic period.
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peace Fusion, all,
Let us try a thought experiment
Let's say you are actually living at the time of prophet Muhammad and you are in the audience when the prophet himself is reciting to you Al Quran.
How do you know what is being said is Al Quran or how are you going to determine what this man is reciting before you is actually revelation from God?
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Peace Fusion.
Narratives are plenty and can differ like for example, quoteNineteen years after the Prophet Muhammad's death, during the reign of Khalifa `Uthman, a committee of scribes was appointed to make several copies of the Quran to be dispatched to the new Muslim lands. The copies were to be made from the original Quran which was written by Muhammad's hand.
This committee was supervised by
Uthman IbnAffaan,Ali Ibn Abi Taaleb, Zeid Ibn Thaabet, Ubayy Ibn Kaab,Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, andAbdul Rahman Ibn Al-Haareth Ibn Heshaam. The Prophet, of course, had written the Quran in its chronological order of revelation , together with the necessary instructions to place every piece in its proper position. The last sura revealed in Medina was Sura 9. Only Sura 110, a very short sura, was revealed after Sura 9, in Mina.The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honor the Prophet. The majority of scribes agreed. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered.
Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .
Translation `Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."
The horrendous dimensions of this crime can be realized once we look at the consequences
Uthman was assassinated, andAli was installed as the fourth Khalifa.
A 50-year war erupted between the new Khalifa and his supporters on one side, and the Mohammedan distorters of the Quran on the other side.
Ali was martyred, and eventually his family, the prophet Muhammad's family, except for some women and children, were killed. The disaster culminated in the infamous Battle of Karbala, whereAli's son, Hussein, and his family were massacred.
The Muslims were deprived of the pure, unaltered, Quran for 1400 years.
The distorters of the Quran finally won the war, and the "official" history that came to us represented the victors' point of view. This apparent victory for God's enemies was, of course, in accordance with God's will. In just two decades after the Prophet's death, the idol worshipers who were defeated by the Prophet in the conquest of Mecca (632 AD) reverted to idolatry. Ironically, this time around their idol was the Prophet himself. Such idol worshipers obviously did not deserve to possess the pure Quran. Hence the blessed martyrdom of the true believers who tried to restore the Quran, and the apparent victory for the distorters of God's word.The first peace time ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, the one that was so scrupulously written by the Prophet's own hand, "fearing it might become the cause of NEW disputes" . The question an intelligent person must ask is "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?!"
Of course narratives remain just that and can only be confirmed as fact by evidence.
However there are many questions we can ask regarding the spread of false Islam
1- God s deen was not to be forced on people Why spread GOD s religion by the sword?
2- why was Qoran and hadiths not mixed up? Was this a coincidence? Was this a mistake by the rulers or was this in GOD s plan ?
3-What happened to the Muslims in history and does it fit with GOD s religion and its aim?
4- GOD s words about what the prophet will say " My Lord ,my people have abandoned Qoran" is this a true prediction ?It seems they preserved their nemesis and demise by leaving the Qoran well alone as if they had no idea that their fabrications and crimes were clearly written and prophesised in it.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
That's an excellent question, Wakas. I believe Good Logic has already provided an answer in his response on April 14, 2024. Subsequent discussions have primarily focused on the historical preservation aspects related to human agency.
Personally, I think that if I were to truly believe, I would consider several factors that don't typically apply to my current context. For instance, my cultural and spiritual surroundings would be significant. Furthermore, the message itself, which addresses social issues, justice, and ethical monotheism, would potentially ignite my curiosity and urge to discover the truth—motivating my belief that this Man and his message are indeed touched by divine intervention. However, more crucial than the message itself would be my personal observations of this man's life. Witnessing his day-to-day integrity, honesty, and how he conducts himself consistently would serve as one of the most compelling reasons to heed his words.
Similarly, when figures like Rashad Khalifa and Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani were arguably portrayed as carrying forward God's message, it illustrates how people's reactions can vary based on their personal views and the historical context they find themselves in.
However, for my acceptance of the divine message to happen, I believe that one must inherently possess a certain goodness, as I think that God grants guidance (hidaya) to those who are deserving, those who already have a spark within them. I'm not sure how I would have been if I were born back then. I previously mentioned or commented somewhere that I believe it's more commendable for someone in modern times to believe in the message and stories of the Quran compared to someone who was present during the Prophet's time, for several reasons. Today, we have access to the complete, compiled text of the Quran, allowing us to study and analyze it thoroughly from various perspectives. Additionally, we can compare it with other religious texts, which adds more complexity to our understanding. Moreover, in today's world, we don't witness miracles or direct divine punishments like those described in ancient times, which seemingly wicked people escaping consequences, as GL explained in another post, now we are in a grace period until the Day of Judgement. Thus, believing in our times is more difficult and challenging than it would have been for those who lived during the Prophet's time. This is purely my own viewpoint.
Or as my good friend JKhan, who seems increasingly exasperated with me, often reminds me of my shortcomings -)
وَٱعْبُدْ رَبَّكَ حَتَّىٰ يَأْتِيَكَ ٱلْيَقِينُ
I think the intent here is death but i wish to read it like I will continue to search and search until I have the absolute faith about God and his message.
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Peace Fusion.
Narratives are plenty and can differ like for example, quoteNineteen years after the Prophet Muhammad's death, during the reign of Khalifa `Uthman, a committee of scribes was appointed to make several copies of the Quran to be dispatched to the new Muslim lands. The copies were to be made from the original Quran which was written by Muhammad's hand.
This committee was supervised by
Uthman IbnAffaan,Ali Ibn Abi Taaleb, Zeid Ibn Thaabet, Ubayy Ibn Kaab,Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, andAbdul Rahman Ibn Al-Haareth Ibn Heshaam. The Prophet, of course, had written the Quran in its chronological order of revelation , together with the necessary instructions to place every piece in its proper position. The last sura revealed in Medina was Sura 9. Only Sura 110, a very short sura, was revealed after Sura 9, in Mina.The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honor the Prophet. The majority of scribes agreed. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered.
Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .
Translation `Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."
The horrendous dimensions of this crime can be realized once we look at the consequences
Uthman was assassinated, andAli was installed as the fourth Khalifa.
A 50-year war erupted between the new Khalifa and his supporters on one side, and the Mohammedan distorters of the Quran on the other side.
Ali was martyred, and eventually his family, the prophet Muhammad's family, except for some women and children, were killed. The disaster culminated in the infamous Battle of Karbala, whereAli's son, Hussein, and his family were massacred.
The Muslims were deprived of the pure, unaltered, Quran for 1400 years.
The distorters of the Quran finally won the war, and the "official" history that came to us represented the victors' point of view. This apparent victory for God's enemies was, of course, in accordance with God's will. In just two decades after the Prophet's death, the idol worshipers who were defeated by the Prophet in the conquest of Mecca (632 AD) reverted to idolatry. Ironically, this time around their idol was the Prophet himself. Such idol worshipers obviously did not deserve to possess the pure Quran. Hence the blessed martyrdom of the true believers who tried to restore the Quran, and the apparent victory for the distorters of God's word.The first peace time ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, the one that was so scrupulously written by the Prophet's own hand, "fearing it might become the cause of NEW disputes" . The question an intelligent person must ask is "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?!"
Of course narratives remain just that and can only be confirmed as fact by evidence.
However there are many questions we can ask regarding the spread of false Islam
1- God s deen was not to be forced on people Why spread GOD s religion by the sword?
2- why was Qoran and hadiths not mixed up? Was this a coincidence? Was this a mistake by the rulers or was this in GOD s plan ?
3-What happened to the Muslims in history and does it fit with GOD s religion and its aim?
4- GOD s words about what the prophet will say " My Lord ,my people have abandoned Qoran" is this a true prediction ?It seems they preserved their nemesis and demise by leaving the Qoran well alone as if they had no idea that their fabrications and crimes were clearly written and prophesised in it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Thank you GL for your insightful post.
Please correct me.
From the narrative shared by you, it seems you are implying that the current copy of the Quran might not be the original as compiled during the time of Prophet Muhammad ??
Reason being you point out that there were disputes over additions to the text and subsequent political conflicts that led to changes in the way the Quran was transmitted and preserved. You also mentioned instances such as the destruction of what was claimed to be the original manuscript by Marwan Ibn Al Hakam to prevent further disputes, suggesting that the versions available today may differ from the very first compilation.If this is your own belief then how do you reconcile while you read the current Quran as you very well post verses from it most often.. how do you choose which ones you believe are part of the original quran and which ones not?
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Peace Fusion.
I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Fusion.
I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Thank you Good Logic for clarifying your views. It is evident to me that you believe in Rashad Khalifa's discovery of the number 19 as a mathematical signature within the Quran and consider him the 'Messenger of the Covenant. You also view Surah 9 verses 128-129 as not fitting this numerical system, aligning with Khalifa's perspective.
I would like to get more understanding with respect to the "Messenger of Covenant".
Quran 381 - "And , when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, , 'Whatever I give you of the Book and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you believe in him and support him.' said, 'Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?' They said, 'We have acknowledged it.' He said, 'Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.'"
So in other words, it is Khalifa who is mentioned in the above verse as the future messenger who would confirm the scriptures through a divine proof which is mathematical code of the number 19 in the Quran, which he believed verified its text and proved its divine origin.
I believe I have summed up my understanding of your last post, please correct me otherwise.
As you mentioned in previous post "GOD gave the freedom of choice to every individual to believe or otherwise" and I respect your views. However for general knowledge I would like to mention that This interpretation and the identification of Khalifa himself as the "Messenger of the Covenant" are not recognized by mainstream Islam. Traditional Islamic teachings do not support the idea of a new prophet or messenger after Muhammad, whom Muslims believe to be the final prophet (Khatam an-Nabiyyin). Khalifa's views are considered highly controversial and have been rejected by the majority of Muslim scholars and communities. As someone with a background in Mathematics and a Master's in Computing Science - AI, I find Rashad Khalifa's claims quite intriguing. However, I remain cautious and am not fully convinced at this stage; I plan to continue exploring and learning. Regarding the two verses you mentioned, I believe that if they are indeed divinely inspired, their inclusion or exclusion won't ultimately hinder my journey towards understanding, as I trust that God will guide me to His path, Insha'Allah.
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Peace Fusion.
I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace...
Numeric symetry is one unique subject neither cannot deny it nor accept all.. That's how I see it..Basic numeric patterns do exist in Quran unquestionably... So far I don't find anyone who gave a logical answer to why these 29 chapters in Quran had placed mere letters at the very beginning and conspicuous missing of bismillah in chapter 9 ... There must be a reason behind these .. Aren't they? These letters are not kept for fun or just to misguide or just for no reason. After all they are part of Quran and what for..
If Allah promises no one can add it delete anything from His Quran then there should be well and truly a mechanism He would have applied so that no one can literally do so.. But everyone can tear the Quran or burn or include any number addition or deletion.. Can't they? But it is not QURAN.. But what Allah revealed is Quran and nothing else.. Has He really preserved the message, not the one which was written by the messenger... Needless to preserve a literal book which just one. But the message is important.. Is the same message we are getting..? Even if the same original book which was written is in any Library now, it doesn't mean people won't interpret it as they want.. So.. Misinformation is always around.. While Quran was in the process of revealing people were in the hunt of distorting the verses..
Seek guidance from Allah and He won't misguide true believers..
We are like a community worthless... Prophet is sealed. No more means there is a reason.. It's like sorry folks gate is closed.. No entry.. Who knows mercy of Allah is done save very minute number of people who are still seeking guidance from Him with His books...
Favour is very clear.. A Messwnger living and messages flowing and people are answered in their own language... But we have no one to reach save Allah ...
Seal of prophets has part to play.. Allah knows what He does.. And He knows whether people who comes at cetain point of time are believers or disbelievers... Even Messengers come perhaps no one would believe. Destiny is written..
Allah knows best.. But try to be those fortunate people still Slah would guide without a direct messenger or a book in our own language... -
Peace Fusion.
GOD does everything and has sent the details of everything to do with our salvation and redemption in His message.The prophet delivered Qoran, GOD knows people will dispute His message
Any copy of Qoran for the sincere,will do to start with.GOD guides with His words and one should not worry if people add or take away verses or one can only find some portion of Qoran interesting or all of it or....
Remember when it started , it took many years for the prophet s generation to have the complete Qoran.GOD is all knowledgeable and sends or confirms what is needed and according to the knowledge reached by different generations.
" Say The future belongs to GOD so wait everybody will have to be patient and wait"Now Muhammad has been and gone, Rashad has been and gone and their task was to deliver the Qoran and confirm Qoran. The message is the most important thing.
Qoran is the ever living messenger since it came and will outlive all messengers. It is the ultimate messenger.If one is looking to change their priorities and better themselves and their soul, and believes Qoran is the message of GOD, then they will take the message seriously and prepare to meet their creator. The trust and total loyalty in GOD Alone will take them towards certainty in their belief.
Do you believe Qoran is GOD s scripture?
Then GOD Alone and His message- Qoran alone- takes the number one priority.What Qoran confirms for me I take, what is contradictory and opposes it I ignore Of course according to my faculties that GOD gave me to use and I am responsible and accountable at GOD s for. Same should be for every individual.
Best of luck with your journey and freedom of choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .
can you post the hadith? Ali complained about bananas?
Imam Jalal-Al-Din Al-Suyuti (849-911 AH / 1445-1505 CE)
https//data.nur.nu/Kutub/English/Suyuti_Itqan-fi-ulum-alquran-eng.pdf"We have for example, the case of
Ali, the fourth caliph, refusing to change the word talh (bananas) in 5629 for tal(blossoms) even though he believed a scribal error had occurred."So far I don't find anyone who gave a logical answer to why these 29 chapters
maybe has to do with 29
1 7
2 286
3 200
4 176
5 120
6 165
7 206
8 75
9 129
10 109
11 123
12 111
13 43
14 52
15 99
16 128
17 111
18 110
19 98
20 135
21 112
22 78
23 118
24 64
25 77
26 227
27 93
28 88
29 69
30 60
31 34
32 30
33 73
34 54
35 45
36 83
37 182
38 88
39 75
40 85
41 54
42 53
43 89
44 59
45 37
46 35
47 38
48 29
49 18
50 45
51 60
52 49
53 62
54 55
55 78
56 96
57 291653 5104
58 22
59 24
60 13
61 14
62 11
63 11
64 18
65 12
66 12
67 30
68 52
69 52
70 44
71 28
72 28
73 20
74 56
75 40
76 31
77 50
78 40
79 46
80 42
81 29
82 19
83 36
84 25
85 22
86 17
87 19
88 26
89 30
90 20
91 15
92 21
93 11
94 8
95 8
96 19
97 5
98 8
99 8
100 11
101 11
102 8
103 3
104 9
105 5
106 4
107 7
108 3
109 6
110 3
111 5
112 4
113 5
114 64902 1132
6236 = 29 x ... total verses appended to above sequence
AND
6555 = 29 x ... sum ch 1,2,3, ... 114 appended to above1653 = 29 x 57 sum ch 1,2,3, ... to 57 midway
AND
5104 = 29 x 176 total verses ch 1 to 57 midwaylong number calculator use a MOD b (remainder should be = 0)
https//www.boxentriq.com/code-breaking/big-number-calculator
