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  4. Seeking Clarity on the Quran's Preservation Over Centuries

Seeking Clarity on the Quran's Preservation Over Centuries

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  • FusionF Offline
    FusionF Offline
    Fusion
    wrote on last edited by
    #16

    Basing ideas strictly on manuscripts, than the oldest one we know of is the Birmingham Quran manuscript which is a single parchment having Surah 19 to Surah 20. https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript. And guess what? This manuscript is not in the same qirat (reading) that is most popular today, the reading of Hafs.

    There is not enough of the Birmingham manuscript to determine which reading it might be in, but it is safe to say from the 10 canonized readings, it does not represent 9 of them, which includes the most popular reading today (Hafs).

    How do we know it does not represent 9/10th of the readers? Due to one verse 18.26 - it's written as TUSHRIK and not YUSHRIK like 9 out of the 10 readers recite it.

    We disqualified it being from 9 people just by a single letter change Ta.

    But we don't have enough to know if it is in the 10th person. It could be a totally different reading that has not been canonized. Imagine that?

    Most early manuscripts are not in Hafs reading. They are either in Warsh or Abu Amr. Hafs was not popular in the early days.

    Dear Euphoric,

    You raise several intriguing points about the Birmingham Quran manuscript. Indeed, this manuscript, while not a complete copy of the Quran, contains only parts of Surahs 18 to 20. Despite this, its importance cannot be understated, particularly because the radiocarbon dating suggests that it could have been written during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad or shortly thereafter, within the period of the Caliphs.

    This timeframe is particularly significant as it supports historical accounts that the Quran was being compiled and written down in textual form during this early period. Such findings lend credence to the theory that the process may have been overseen or even initiated by the Prophet himself, reinforcing traditional Islamic narratives about the Quran's preservation.

    As for the manuscript's differences in qirat, these do not suggest any forgery or corruption of the text. Instead, they highlight the richness of the Quranic tradition and the existence of various readings (qirat), which were eventually canonized. These variations are a testament to the meticulous care with which the Quran was transmitted and preserved, reflecting both divine oversight and human dedication.

    I believe the historical destruction of variant Quranic texts to standardize the Quran under the Caliph Uthman is well-documented and illustrates a critical moment in Islamic history. This act was aimed at preserving unity and preventing sectarian disputes, ensuring that one standardized text was used for all Muslims.

    Furthermore, I believe that divine providence in the preservation of the Quran through human history are thought-provoking. This manuscript not only enriches our understanding of Islamic history but also enhances our appreciation for the profound and divinely guided efforts of those who preserved the Quran through the centuries. It’s fascinating to consider both the historical and the spiritual dimensions of the Quran's preservation and the role it plays in the faith of millions today.

    Added
    I just realized the reply from Bajram about Birmingham Quran manuscript's age due to the fresh appearance of the script and the use of colored chapter separators. Your suggestion that the parchment might have been washed and reused is a compelling one, however you did mention older manuscripts like Ms. or. fol. 4313 and qāf 47, which are thought to date back to the early 7th century.

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    • FusionF Offline
      FusionF Offline
      Fusion
      wrote on last edited by
      #17

      Interesting.

      https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hb8PMx34iY

      https//ibb.co/KrF5Typ

      So if I understand correctly, The copies of the Quran that Caliph Uthman ordered to be burned were not related to the ten Qira'at styles we know today. Instead, those copies represented variations in the text itself, potentially including differences in word choice, arrangement, and dialect that were more pronounced and significant than the variations found in the Qira'at.

      I found the following narrative
      The story of Caliph Uthman ibn Affan burning copies of the Quran is a significant event in Islamic history, tied to the standardization of the Quranic text during his caliphate (644-656 AD). This episode is directly linked to the efforts to maintain the purity and consistency of the Quran as Islam expanded across diverse linguistic and cultural regions.

      Background and Motivation
      After the death of Prophet Muhammad, Islam spread rapidly across vast territories, encompassing many different linguistic groups. This rapid expansion brought about variations in the recitation and transcription of the Quran, as converts began to recite and copy the Quranic text in their own dialects. To address the emerging discrepancies and to prevent any doctrinal splits, a standardized version of the Quran became necessary.

      Uthman’s Standardization Effort
      Uthman, the third Caliph of Islam, observed that these dialectal differences were leading to disputes among Muslims about the correct recitation of the Quran. To preserve the unity of the Muslim Ummah (community) and to ensure the authenticity of the Quranic text, Uthman commissioned a committee, led by Zaid ibn Thabit—who had also been part of an earlier compilation project under the first Caliph, Abu Bakr—to compile a standard text of the Quran. This committee was instructed to prepare the text in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect of the Prophet Muhammad and considered the most authoritative.

      The Burning of Other Copies
      Once the standardized copies were prepared and approved, Uthman ordered that all other Quranic manuscripts and materials that differed from this standardized version be collected and burned. This drastic measure was taken to eliminate conflicting versions of the Quran that could lead to division and misinterpretation among Muslims. The decision to burn these other copies was aimed solely at ensuring doctrinal consistency, not suppressing legitimate variations in recitation styles.

      Impact and Legacy
      Uthman’s actions were crucial in preserving a single, unified text of the Quran. The burning of the non-standard manuscripts is viewed within Islamic tradition as a necessary act to maintain the integrity and authenticity of the Quranic text across the expanding Islamic empire. The standardized text from Uthman’s time forms the basis for the Quran as it is known today, and all traditional Qira'at (canonical recitations) are derived from this text. These Qira'at allow for slight variations in pronunciation and recitation but do not alter the text itself.

      For reference, you can look into traditional Islamic historical sources like "The History of the Quranic Text from Revelation to Compilation" by Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'zami, which provides detailed insights into the events surrounding the compilation and standardization of the Quran. Additionally, Ibn Sa'd's "Tabaqat al-Kubra" and al-Tabari's "History of the Prophets and Kings" also discuss these events and their significance. These texts are widely respected and used as primary references for the historical study of the early Islamic period.

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      • WakasW Offline
        WakasW Offline
        Wakas
        wrote on last edited by
        #18

        peace Fusion, all,

        Let us try a thought experiment

        Let's say you are actually living at the time of prophet Muhammad and you are in the audience when the prophet himself is reciting to you Al Quran.

        How do you know what is being said is Al Quran or how are you going to determine what this man is reciting before you is actually revelation from God?

        All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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        • G Offline
          G Offline
          good_logic
          wrote on last edited by
          #19

          Peace Fusion.
          Narratives are plenty and can differ like for example, quote

          Nineteen years after the Prophet Muhammad's death, during the reign of Khalifa `Uthman, a committee of scribes was appointed to make several copies of the Quran to be dispatched to the new Muslim lands. The copies were to be made from the original Quran which was written by Muhammad's hand.

          This committee was supervised by Uthman Ibn Affaan, Ali Ibn Abi Taaleb, Zeid Ibn Thaabet, Ubayy Ibn Kaab, Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdul Rahman Ibn Al-Haareth Ibn Heshaam. The Prophet, of course, had written the Quran in its chronological order of revelation , together with the necessary instructions to place every piece in its proper position. The last sura revealed in Medina was Sura 9. Only Sura 110, a very short sura, was revealed after Sura 9, in Mina.

          The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honor the Prophet. The majority of scribes agreed. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered.

          Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .

          Translation `Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."

          The horrendous dimensions of this crime can be realized once we look at the consequences

          Uthman was assassinated, and Ali was installed as the fourth Khalifa.
          A 50-year war erupted between the new Khalifa and his supporters on one side, and the Mohammedan distorters of the Quran on the other side.
          Ali was martyred, and eventually his family, the prophet Muhammad's family, except for some women and children, were killed. The disaster culminated in the infamous Battle of Karbala, where Ali's son, Hussein, and his family were massacred.
          The Muslims were deprived of the pure, unaltered, Quran for 1400 years.
          The distorters of the Quran finally won the war, and the "official" history that came to us represented the victors' point of view. This apparent victory for God's enemies was, of course, in accordance with God's will. In just two decades after the Prophet's death, the idol worshipers who were defeated by the Prophet in the conquest of Mecca (632 AD) reverted to idolatry. Ironically, this time around their idol was the Prophet himself. Such idol worshipers obviously did not deserve to possess the pure Quran. Hence the blessed martyrdom of the true believers who tried to restore the Quran, and the apparent victory for the distorters of God's word.

          The first peace time ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, the one that was so scrupulously written by the Prophet's own hand, "fearing it might become the cause of NEW disputes" . The question an intelligent person must ask is "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?!"

          Of course narratives remain just that and can only be confirmed as fact by evidence.
          However there are many questions we can ask regarding the spread of false Islam
          1- God s deen was not to be forced on people Why spread GOD s religion by the sword?
          2- why was Qoran and hadiths not mixed up? Was this a coincidence? Was this a mistake by the rulers or was this in GOD s plan ?
          3-What happened to the Muslims in history and does it fit with GOD s religion and its aim?
          4- GOD s words about what the prophet will say " My Lord ,my people have abandoned Qoran" is this a true prediction ?

          It seems they preserved their nemesis and demise by leaving the Qoran well alone as if they had no idea that their fabrications and crimes were clearly written and prophesised in it.
          GOD bless you.
          Peace.

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          • FusionF Offline
            FusionF Offline
            Fusion
            wrote on last edited by
            #20

            That's an excellent question, Wakas. I believe Good Logic has already provided an answer in his response on April 14, 2024. Subsequent discussions have primarily focused on the historical preservation aspects related to human agency.

            Personally, I think that if I were to truly believe, I would consider several factors that don't typically apply to my current context. For instance, my cultural and spiritual surroundings would be significant. Furthermore, the message itself, which addresses social issues, justice, and ethical monotheism, would potentially ignite my curiosity and urge to discover the truth—motivating my belief that this Man and his message are indeed touched by divine intervention. However, more crucial than the message itself would be my personal observations of this man's life. Witnessing his day-to-day integrity, honesty, and how he conducts himself consistently would serve as one of the most compelling reasons to heed his words.

            Similarly, when figures like Rashad Khalifa and Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani were arguably portrayed as carrying forward God's message, it illustrates how people's reactions can vary based on their personal views and the historical context they find themselves in.

            However, for my acceptance of the divine message to happen, I believe that one must inherently possess a certain goodness, as I think that God grants guidance (hidaya) to those who are deserving, those who already have a spark within them. I'm not sure how I would have been if I were born back then. I previously mentioned or commented somewhere that I believe it's more commendable for someone in modern times to believe in the message and stories of the Quran compared to someone who was present during the Prophet's time, for several reasons. Today, we have access to the complete, compiled text of the Quran, allowing us to study and analyze it thoroughly from various perspectives. Additionally, we can compare it with other religious texts, which adds more complexity to our understanding. Moreover, in today's world, we don't witness miracles or direct divine punishments like those described in ancient times, which seemingly wicked people escaping consequences, as GL explained in another post, now we are in a grace period until the Day of Judgement. Thus, believing in our times is more difficult and challenging than it would have been for those who lived during the Prophet's time. This is purely my own viewpoint.

            Or as my good friend JKhan, who seems increasingly exasperated with me, often reminds me of my shortcomings -)

            وَٱعْبُدْ رَبَّكَ حَتَّىٰ يَأْتِيَكَ ٱلْيَقِينُ

            I think the intent here is death but i wish to read it like I will continue to search and search until I have the absolute faith about God and his message.

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            • FusionF Offline
              FusionF Offline
              Fusion
              wrote on last edited by
              #21

              Peace Fusion.
              Narratives are plenty and can differ like for example, quote

              Nineteen years after the Prophet Muhammad's death, during the reign of Khalifa `Uthman, a committee of scribes was appointed to make several copies of the Quran to be dispatched to the new Muslim lands. The copies were to be made from the original Quran which was written by Muhammad's hand.

              This committee was supervised by Uthman Ibn Affaan, Ali Ibn Abi Taaleb, Zeid Ibn Thaabet, Ubayy Ibn Kaab, Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdul Rahman Ibn Al-Haareth Ibn Heshaam. The Prophet, of course, had written the Quran in its chronological order of revelation , together with the necessary instructions to place every piece in its proper position. The last sura revealed in Medina was Sura 9. Only Sura 110, a very short sura, was revealed after Sura 9, in Mina.

              The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honor the Prophet. The majority of scribes agreed. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered.

              Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .

              Translation `Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."

              The horrendous dimensions of this crime can be realized once we look at the consequences

              Uthman was assassinated, and Ali was installed as the fourth Khalifa.
              A 50-year war erupted between the new Khalifa and his supporters on one side, and the Mohammedan distorters of the Quran on the other side.
              Ali was martyred, and eventually his family, the prophet Muhammad's family, except for some women and children, were killed. The disaster culminated in the infamous Battle of Karbala, where Ali's son, Hussein, and his family were massacred.
              The Muslims were deprived of the pure, unaltered, Quran for 1400 years.
              The distorters of the Quran finally won the war, and the "official" history that came to us represented the victors' point of view. This apparent victory for God's enemies was, of course, in accordance with God's will. In just two decades after the Prophet's death, the idol worshipers who were defeated by the Prophet in the conquest of Mecca (632 AD) reverted to idolatry. Ironically, this time around their idol was the Prophet himself. Such idol worshipers obviously did not deserve to possess the pure Quran. Hence the blessed martyrdom of the true believers who tried to restore the Quran, and the apparent victory for the distorters of God's word.

              The first peace time ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, the one that was so scrupulously written by the Prophet's own hand, "fearing it might become the cause of NEW disputes" . The question an intelligent person must ask is "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?!"

              Of course narratives remain just that and can only be confirmed as fact by evidence.
              However there are many questions we can ask regarding the spread of false Islam
              1- God s deen was not to be forced on people Why spread GOD s religion by the sword?
              2- why was Qoran and hadiths not mixed up? Was this a coincidence? Was this a mistake by the rulers or was this in GOD s plan ?
              3-What happened to the Muslims in history and does it fit with GOD s religion and its aim?
              4- GOD s words about what the prophet will say " My Lord ,my people have abandoned Qoran" is this a true prediction ?

              It seems they preserved their nemesis and demise by leaving the Qoran well alone as if they had no idea that their fabrications and crimes were clearly written and prophesised in it.
              GOD bless you.
              Peace.

              Thank you GL for your insightful post.
              Please correct me.
              From the narrative shared by you, it seems you are implying that the current copy of the Quran might not be the original as compiled during the time of Prophet Muhammad ??
              Reason being you point out that there were disputes over additions to the text and subsequent political conflicts that led to changes in the way the Quran was transmitted and preserved. You also mentioned instances such as the destruction of what was claimed to be the original manuscript by Marwan Ibn Al Hakam to prevent further disputes, suggesting that the versions available today may differ from the very first compilation.

              If this is your own belief then how do you reconcile while you read the current Quran as you very well post verses from it most often.. how do you choose which ones you believe are part of the original quran and which ones not?

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              • G Offline
                G Offline
                good_logic
                wrote on last edited by
                #22

                Peace Fusion.
                I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.

                The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
                In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
                Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
                Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
                My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.

                Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
                GOD bless you.
                Peace.

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                • FusionF Offline
                  FusionF Offline
                  Fusion
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #23

                  Peace Fusion.
                  I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.

                  The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
                  In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
                  Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
                  Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
                  My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.

                  Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
                  GOD bless you.
                  Peace.

                  Thank you Good Logic for clarifying your views. It is evident to me that you believe in Rashad Khalifa's discovery of the number 19 as a mathematical signature within the Quran and consider him the 'Messenger of the Covenant. You also view Surah 9 verses 128-129 as not fitting this numerical system, aligning with Khalifa's perspective.

                  I would like to get more understanding with respect to the "Messenger of Covenant".

                  Quran 381 - "And , when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, , 'Whatever I give you of the Book and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you believe in him and support him.' said, 'Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?' They said, 'We have acknowledged it.' He said, 'Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.'"

                  So in other words, it is Khalifa who is mentioned in the above verse as the future messenger who would confirm the scriptures through a divine proof which is mathematical code of the number 19 in the Quran, which he believed verified its text and proved its divine origin.

                  I believe I have summed up my understanding of your last post, please correct me otherwise.

                  As you mentioned in previous post "GOD gave the freedom of choice to every individual to believe or otherwise" and I respect your views. However for general knowledge I would like to mention that This interpretation and the identification of Khalifa himself as the "Messenger of the Covenant" are not recognized by mainstream Islam. Traditional Islamic teachings do not support the idea of a new prophet or messenger after Muhammad, whom Muslims believe to be the final prophet (Khatam an-Nabiyyin). Khalifa's views are considered highly controversial and have been rejected by the majority of Muslim scholars and communities. As someone with a background in Mathematics and a Master's in Computing Science - AI, I find Rashad Khalifa's claims quite intriguing. However, I remain cautious and am not fully convinced at this stage; I plan to continue exploring and learning. Regarding the two verses you mentioned, I believe that if they are indeed divinely inspired, their inclusion or exclusion won't ultimately hinder my journey towards understanding, as I trust that God will guide me to His path, Insha'Allah.

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                  • J Offline
                    J Offline
                    jkhan
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #24

                    Peace Fusion.
                    I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.

                    The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
                    In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
                    Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
                    Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
                    My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.

                    Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
                    GOD bless you.
                    Peace.

                    Peace...
                    Numeric symetry is one unique subject neither cannot deny it nor accept all.. That's how I see it..

                    Basic numeric patterns do exist in Quran unquestionably... So far I don't find anyone who gave a logical answer to why these 29 chapters in Quran had placed mere letters at the very beginning and conspicuous missing of bismillah in chapter 9 ... There must be a reason behind these .. Aren't they? These letters are not kept for fun or just to misguide or just for no reason. After all they are part of Quran and what for..

                    If Allah promises no one can add it delete anything from His Quran then there should be well and truly a mechanism He would have applied so that no one can literally do so.. But everyone can tear the Quran or burn or include any number addition or deletion.. Can't they? But it is not QURAN.. But what Allah revealed is Quran and nothing else.. Has He really preserved the message, not the one which was written by the messenger... Needless to preserve a literal book which just one. But the message is important.. Is the same message we are getting..? Even if the same original book which was written is in any Library now, it doesn't mean people won't interpret it as they want.. So.. Misinformation is always around.. While Quran was in the process of revealing people were in the hunt of distorting the verses..

                    Seek guidance from Allah and He won't misguide true believers..
                    We are like a community worthless... Prophet is sealed. No more means there is a reason.. It's like sorry folks gate is closed.. No entry.. Who knows mercy of Allah is done save very minute number of people who are still seeking guidance from Him with His books...
                    Favour is very clear.. A Messwnger living and messages flowing and people are answered in their own language... But we have no one to reach save Allah ...
                    Seal of prophets has part to play.. Allah knows what He does.. And He knows whether people who comes at cetain point of time are believers or disbelievers... Even Messengers come perhaps no one would believe. Destiny is written..
                    Allah knows best.. But try to be those fortunate people still Slah would guide without a direct messenger or a book in our own language...

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                    • G Offline
                      G Offline
                      good_logic
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #25

                      Peace Fusion.
                      GOD does everything and has sent the details of everything to do with our salvation and redemption in His message.

                      The prophet delivered Qoran, GOD knows people will dispute His message
                      Any copy of Qoran for the sincere,will do to start with.GOD guides with His words and one should not worry if people add or take away verses or one can only find some portion of Qoran interesting or all of it or....
                      Remember when it started , it took many years for the prophet s generation to have the complete Qoran.

                      GOD is all knowledgeable and sends or confirms what is needed and according to the knowledge reached by different generations.
                      " Say The future belongs to GOD so wait everybody will have to be patient and wait"

                      Now Muhammad has been and gone, Rashad has been and gone and their task was to deliver the Qoran and confirm Qoran. The message is the most important thing.
                      Qoran is the ever living messenger since it came and will outlive all messengers. It is the ultimate messenger.

                      If one is looking to change their priorities and better themselves and their soul, and believes Qoran is the message of GOD, then they will take the message seriously and prepare to meet their creator. The trust and total loyalty in GOD Alone will take them towards certainty in their belief.

                      Do you believe Qoran is GOD s scripture?
                      Then GOD Alone and His message- Qoran alone- takes the number one priority.

                      What Qoran confirms for me I take, what is contradictory and opposes it I ignore Of course according to my faculties that GOD gave me to use and I am responsible and accountable at GOD s for. Same should be for every individual.

                      Best of luck with your journey and freedom of choice.
                      GOD bless you.
                      Peace.

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                      • B Offline
                        B Offline
                        Bajram_Hoxhaj
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #26

                        Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .

                        can you post the hadith? Ali complained about bananas?

                        Imam Jalal-Al-Din Al-Suyuti (849-911 AH / 1445-1505 CE)
                        https//data.nur.nu/Kutub/English/Suyuti_Itqan-fi-ulum-alquran-eng.pdf

                        "We have for example, the case of Ali, the fourth caliph, refusing to change the word talh (bananas) in 5629 for tal (blossoms) even though he believed a scribal error had occurred."

                        So far I don't find anyone who gave a logical answer to why these 29 chapters

                        maybe has to do with 29

                        1 7
                        2 286
                        3 200
                        4 176
                        5 120
                        6 165
                        7 206
                        8 75
                        9 129
                        10 109
                        11 123
                        12 111
                        13 43
                        14 52
                        15 99
                        16 128
                        17 111
                        18 110
                        19 98
                        20 135
                        21 112
                        22 78
                        23 118
                        24 64
                        25 77
                        26 227
                        27 93
                        28 88
                        29 69
                        30 60
                        31 34
                        32 30
                        33 73
                        34 54
                        35 45
                        36 83
                        37 182
                        38 88
                        39 75
                        40 85
                        41 54
                        42 53
                        43 89
                        44 59
                        45 37
                        46 35
                        47 38
                        48 29
                        49 18
                        50 45
                        51 60
                        52 49
                        53 62
                        54 55
                        55 78
                        56 96
                        57 29

                        1653 5104

                        58 22
                        59 24
                        60 13
                        61 14
                        62 11
                        63 11
                        64 18
                        65 12
                        66 12
                        67 30
                        68 52
                        69 52
                        70 44
                        71 28
                        72 28
                        73 20
                        74 56
                        75 40
                        76 31
                        77 50
                        78 40
                        79 46
                        80 42
                        81 29
                        82 19
                        83 36
                        84 25
                        85 22
                        86 17
                        87 19
                        88 26
                        89 30
                        90 20
                        91 15
                        92 21
                        93 11
                        94 8
                        95 8
                        96 19
                        97 5
                        98 8
                        99 8
                        100 11
                        101 11
                        102 8
                        103 3
                        104 9
                        105 5
                        106 4
                        107 7
                        108 3
                        109 6
                        110 3
                        111 5
                        112 4
                        113 5
                        114 6

                        4902 1132

                        6236 = 29 x ... total verses appended to above sequence
                        AND
                        6555 = 29 x ... sum ch 1,2,3, ... 114 appended to above

                        1653 = 29 x 57 sum ch 1,2,3, ... to 57 midway
                        AND
                        5104 = 29 x 176 total verses ch 1 to 57 midway

                        long number calculator use a MOD b (remainder should be = 0)
                        https//www.boxentriq.com/code-breaking/big-number-calculator

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                          jkhan
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #27

                          So you also connect these letters placed in Quran with numeric pattern?

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                            good_logic
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #28

                            Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.

                            If you read my posts again ,I was giving one example of the narratives . You are giving others.

                            Irrelevant to me ,like I said , you have evidence of your narratives?
                            They can all be a historical fact or a lie if we cannot give evidence.People try to back their argument with assumptions and hear say.
                            GOD gives facts and only the truth.

                            GOD has the master tablet. His words are locked and knows people fabricate hadiths.
                            It is obvious two contradicting narratives cannot be both right . The history is full of " victors narratives " that are lies.
                            I have not asked or even hinted that my narrative is a fact, you are entitled to ignore it and I am to yours.

                            I am sure you can see it will be a waste of time even trying to prove them.

                            I am satisfied that Qoran is mathematically composed and I am certain Qoran will stand the test of time as GOD s word and the truth.
                            You also have the freedom to choose your way.
                            GOD bless you.
                            Peace.

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                              Fusion
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #29

                              Thank you Good Logic for your insights and I appreciate your emphasis on the Quran as our ultimate guide and the importance of personal accountability in interpreting it.

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                              • FusionF Offline
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                                Fusion
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #30

                                Basic numeric patterns do exist in Quran unquestionably... So far I don't find anyone who gave a logical answer to why these 29 chapters in Quran had placed mere letters at the very beginning and conspicuous missing of bismillah in chapter 9 ... There must be a reason behind these .. Aren't they? These letters are not kept for fun or just to misguide or just for no reason. After all they are part of Quran and what for..

                                You actually expressed exactly what I've always thought; I too find the Muqatta'at, those unique combinations of Arabic letters in 29 of the 114 chapters, quite mysterious and been looking for any answer that makes sense.

                                I'm curious to hear from those who support Rashad Khalifa's work did he offer any insights on the Muqatta'at? Specifically, did he suggest that these letter sequences serve a numerical role similar to a cryptographic signature for each chapter, verifying the Quran's authenticity and integrity? I'm interested in whether he applied a numerical interpretation to these sequences, aside from their standalone meanings. In cryptography, after all, a signature is essential for confirming the authenticity and integrity of a message. I mean after all his work is based on decoding a message and he could not have avoided these broken letters in the beginning of those 19 surahs, how could he?

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                                  Euphoric
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #31

                                  Not relevant here.

                                  None of the verses of inheritance throw the math off in any qira'at.

                                  Unless you're talking about the theory of 19, which is inherently stupid to begin with.

                                  Sure, there is math involved in inheritance. Misplacing a meem throws the math off, which you can't qirat your way out of.

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                                    Euphoric
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #32

                                    The 10 qira'at were canonized several hundred years later. Prior to the 10, there were over 20 readings.

                                    Some of the 10 readings were declared wrong having grammatical mistakes despite them being accepted.

                                    Interesting.

                                    https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hb8PMx34iY

                                    https//ibb.co/KrF5Typ

                                    So if I understand correctly, The copies of the Quran that Caliph Uthman ordered to be burned were not related to the ten Qira'at styles we know today.

                                    See "the Sana palimpsest" it is a different Quran believed to be pre-Uthmanic.

                                    Not completely different, but enough to be distinctive and compliments narrations related to Ibn Masud and his Quran.

                                    Try to find the book "The Transmission of the Variant Readings of the Quran The Problem of Tawatur and the Emergence of Shawdhdh" by Shady Nasser

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                                      Bajram_Hoxhaj
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #33

                                      Not relevant here.

                                      None of the verses of inheritance throw the math off in any qira'at.

                                      Unless you're talking about the theory of 19, which is inherently stupid to begin with.

                                      Meant about 412 pertains to uterine siblings which creates a math mess.

                                      Variant Readings Of The Quran A Critical Study of Their Historical and Linguistic Origins
                                      https//iiit.org/wp-content/uploads/English-Variant-Readings-of-the-Quran-UPDATED-Complete-RED-1.pdf

                                      from article

                                      "Sa'd ibn Abu Waqqas added أم من (min umm) after أخت أو أخ وله (wa lahu
                                      akh aw ukht) (412). Al-Suyuti points out that this addition is considered commentary.
                                      However, it is unanimously agreed that it is correct."

                                      example

                                      1/3 three uterine sisters and three uterine brothers (412) 1/18 each
                                      2/3 two full sisters (4176) 1/3 each, which is 6x more than brothers laugh

                                      1/6 mother (411) Fa'in Kāna Lahu 'Ikhwatun Fali'ammihi As-Sudusu
                                      1/2 husband (412) he and mother get nothing since nothing is left

                                      Umar ibn al-Khattab had same issue mother, husband, two uterine and two full brothers.

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                                        Bajram_Hoxhaj
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #34

                                        slight nuance بسطه (seen) and بصطه (saad)

                                        21 الم (with next verse in old manuscripts)
                                        2247 and increase him (sing.) بسطه extensively (with س denotes singular)

                                        71 المص (with next verse in old manuscripts)
                                        769 and increase you (pl.) in the creation بصطه extensively (with ص pl.)

                                        10th line from top 5th word بصطه
                                        https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/13/page/33r?sura=7&verse=69

                                        9th line from top 4th word بصطه
                                        https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/2115/page/7v?sura=7&verse=69

                                        10th line from bottom 1st word بصطه
                                        https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/56/page/100v?sura=7&verse=69

                                        totals in Qur'an
                                        س seen 6012 (112 بسم bsm = 6123)
                                        ص saad 2073

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