Lord of the universes! Rab ilAlamin !

shuaib

apple pie,

I?ll give you one guess who penned the Koranic text as we know it today?..!

Perhaps it was the same people responsible for the PRE-Islamic inscriptions on tombs etc that are found today. Writing was NOT EXCLUSIVE to jews and Christians. the Quran from the earliest has been written in ARABIC and it has never by any historian been suggested that it was written by non-Muslims.

Instead of just jumping to conclusions based on partial truths, how about providing more clear evidence and full logic?

Additionally?.the authors of the Koran readily admit that they just collected, collated, and translated the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.and called it the ?Collection?, or Koran?

Again, a ridiculous claim without any evidence. The word Quran may mean compilation, but it is your OWN assumption that this means the Jewish and Christian books that exist today. Muslims do believe that Jews and Christians were blessed with sacred scriptures at one time, HOWEVER, we believe they were LOST and/or CORRUPTED... therefore, the Quran is NOT a compilation of the extant copies of the Torah or Bible.. to claim such would be to claim the Quran is just as bad as those books are. The Quran is a compilation that includes the TRUE messages that have been LOST.

You may trick other Christians into believing this falsehood, but no Muslim would be so easily fooled.

Jinns - Demonic locusts??

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

Does it look like jinn could be DEMONIC LOCUSTS?? It's so nonsensical that its almost a waste of time refuting. Is there anywhere in the Lane's lexicon that you "study" that mention of locusts in the section of jinn? Making claims like this is only going to weaken your stance even further.

Andya_Primanda

Just to throw in some facts...

The early revelations mentioned by name in the Qur'an are the Torah, Zabur (Psalms) and Injil (Gospels). Therefore, it can safely be said that among all books collected in the Bible, only these three are considered to be from God (and subsequently altered by Jews and Christians).

The Book of Revelation is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

Quote
I?ll give you one guess who penned the Koranic text as we know it today?..!

Perhaps it was the same people responsible for the PRE-Islamic inscriptions on tombs etc that are found today. Writing was NOT EXCLUSIVE to jews and Christians. the Quran from the earliest has been written in ARABIC and it has never by any historian been suggested that it was written by non-Muslims.

Instead of just jumping to conclusions based on partial truths, how about providing more clear evidence and full logic?
Quote
Additionally?.the authors of the Koran readily admit that they just collected, collated, and translated the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.and called it the ?Collection?, or Koran?

Again, a ridiculous claim without any evidence. The word Quran may mean compilation, but it is your OWN assumption that this means the Jewish and Christian books that exist today.

My position is supported straight from the classic Arabic text of the Koran.

I already covered this ground?feel completely free to look at it yourself?

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40195#40195

Muslims do believe that Jews and Christians were blessed with sacred scriptures at one time, HOWEVER, we believe they were LOST and/or CORRUPTED...

Unfortunately, you are once again taking the stance of Islam?..NOT the Koran.

The Koran has nothing but praise for its Biblical source material.

therefore, the Quran is NOT a compilation of the extant copies of the Torah or Bible.. to claim such would be to claim the Quran is just as bad as those books are. The Quran is a compilation that includes the TRUE messages that have been LOST.

Actually, the authors who penned the Koran (as we know it today) fall all over themselves proclaiming their Biblical source material.

To deny the Holy Bible is to deny your Koran.

Jinns - Demonic locusts??

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

Does it look like jinn could be DEMONIC LOCUSTS?? It's so nonsensical that its almost a waste of time refuting. Is there anywhere in the Lane's lexicon that you "study" that mention of locusts in the section of jinn? Making claims like this is only going to weaken your stance even further.

Actually, all of the descriptives given to the demonic locusts, as described in the Biblical Book of Revelation, are also given to the Koranic description(s) of the Jinn?and yes, Lane supports my position on this as well?

Thanks for your interest?

unknownuser

Greetings Andya Primanda,

Thanks for your reply?

Just to throw in some facts...

The early revelations mentioned by name in the Qur'an are the Torah, Zabur (Psalms) and Injil (Gospels).

And??.keep going?.

Additionally, thanks for acknowledging that the Koran uses Biblical material?

Therefore, it can safely be said that among all books collected in the Bible, only these three are considered to be from God (and subsequently altered by Jews and Christians).

Don?t forget the Book of Revelation.

The authors of the Koran did not forget.

Additionally, the Koran never once states that the written word of its main source material (Holy Bible) to be in error in any fashion whatsoever?

Remember?..the horse does not bite the hand that feeds it?

The Book of Revelation is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an.

Actually, the Book of Revelation is one of the two main Biblical books used by the Koranic authors in the compilation of your book of faith?

You really need to give more credit to the Book of Revelation?for without it, the Koran would fall woefully short in its description of Eschatology, heaven, hell, and the Jinns?just to name a few?

Thanks?

shuaib

apple pie,

i am going to just concentrate on a few points to focus the discussion.

Provide the reference for how Lane supports your idea of jinn=demonic locusts.

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

So tell me which demonic locusts messengers/Prophets you know of , tell me when/how they have been warned of the day of judgement... and there will be many demonic locusts that will have rejected faith and earn hell???

This is so silly it's sad.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

i am going to just concentrate on a few points to focus the discussion.

Provide the reference for how Lane supports your idea of jinn=demonic locusts.

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

So tell me which demonic locusts messengers/Prophets you know of , tell me when/how they have been warned of the day of judgement... and there will be many demonic locusts that will have rejected faith and earn hell???

Here is your ayah in full context for you?

6.128 And a day (when) He gathers them all together, you the Jinn's race, you had become more than the human, and their allies/patrons from the human said "Our Lord, some of us enjoyed with some (of them) and we reached our term/time that You delayed for us." He said "The fire (is) your residence, (you are) immortally in it except what (who) Allah wanted/willed, that your Lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable."

6.129 And like that We appoint/enable some (of) the unjust/oppressors (over) some, because (of) what they (were) earning/gathering.

Ya maAAshara aljinni waal-insi alam ya/tikum rusulun minkum yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee wayunthiroonakum liqaa yawmikum hatha qaloo shahidna AAala anfusina wagharrat-humu alhayatu alddunya washahidoo AAala anfusihim annahum kanoo kafireena

6.130 You the Jinn's and the human's race, did not MESSENGERS from you come to you, they relay/inform on you My verses/evidences and warn you (of) this your day's/time's meeting? They said "We witnessed/testified on our selves." And the life the present/worldly life had deceived/tempted them, and they witnessed/testified on themselves that they were disbelieving.

6.131 That (is) that your Lord was not destroying the villages/urban cities with injustice, and its people (are) ignoring/disregarding.

Let?s review the word that you want to force-horse ?prophet? into?.

= ?rusulun?

?rusulun? definition

Plural. Bringing a message. A message; a letter; a communication sent from one person or party to another, oral or written. One who has a message; a messenger. Envoy; bearer of a message. It comers from the root ?rasila?, which means he, a camel, was, or became, easy in pace. It, hair, became lank, not crisp. Easy, easy in pace. Gentleness; and a deliberate, or leisurely manner of acting or behaving. Camels. Also of horse or horsemen; applied to a company of men as being likened to a drove, or herd, of camels; and also a distinct collection or number of any things. To send a messenger, bestow, let go.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 1081 - 1084
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 210 - 211

Please tell me?where is the word ?prophet??.?

If ?prophet? was meant, then the word ?nabiyyan? would have been used by itself and/or coupled with ?rasoolan?.

It is crystal clear just from the context of your ?proof-text? that this message is (once again) taken from the Book of Revelation ? where all Koranic Jinn material has its genesis?

Just look at the context

Gathering together of the respite ones
Term of respite is complete (the 1,000 years)
Fire is the residence
Messengers are sent out
Destruction of Babylon

Again?simple rehash-ment of Biblical material?.

Thanks...

shuaib

apple pie,

It will take a whole other discussion, but I do not distinguish between Prophet and Messenger, and that is not just an opinion but based on facts and research. I can summarize it by saying that there is no Prophet who receives revelation and keeps it to himself, hence every nabi is a rasool, and the quran often refers to rasool in regards to someone who received revelation directly.

But let's for the sake of this argument, assume there that messengers and prophets are different.

Still, the verse 6130 clearly establishes several things... one, there is/was a population of JINN. Some of those jinn were chosen as MESSENGERS, to warn the OTHER jinn of the last day.however some of them will not heed the warning.

Do you believe in an alternate universe of insect men or something???

7179 Many are the JINNs and men we have made for Hell They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided for they are heedless (of warning).

So the locusts also have ears, hearts, and eyes with which they COULD understand the message??

1788 Say "If the whole of mankind and JINNs were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

Jinn can write?

4129 And the Unbelievers will say "Our Lord! Show us those, among Jinns and men, who misled us We shall crush them beneath our feet, so that they become the vilest (before all)."

Jinns can MISLEAD men?

726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.

Men taking shelter with DEMONIC LOCUSTS??

721 Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

4629 Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).

Jinns listened to the Quran, and liked it??

5556 In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-

Apparently these DEMONIC locusts are capable of other human things hmm???

Demonic locusts??? Dont make me laugh.

Again, provide your evidence from Lane's that JINN=DEMONIC LOCUSTS. If you ignore this again I will assume you can't and that your entire argument is invalid. You've also repeatedly ignored my request to explain why you sometimes adhere to Lane's strictly and sometimes not.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your comments?

It will take a whole other discussion, but I do not distinguish between Prophet and Messenger, and that is not just an opinion but based on facts and research. I can summarize it by saying that there is no Prophet who receives revelation and keeps it to himself, hence every nabi is a rasool, and the quran often refers to rasool in regards to someone who received revelation directly.

Well?I think that you have just uncovered your confusion?you are attempting to equate a prophet with a messenger in each and every occurrence in your book of faith.

I demonstrated to you (in your very own posited example of 6.130) that the Koran is not referencing a prophet, but simply rehashing Biblical Book of Revelation Eschatological material?

But let's for the sake of this argument, assume there that messengers and prophets are different.

This would be a good start?

Still, the verse 6130 clearly establishes several things... one, there is/was a population of JINN. Some of those jinn were chosen as MESSENGERS, to warn the OTHER jinn of the last day.however some of them will not heed the warning.

Jinn warning other Jinn?.?!

Exactly how do you derive that from the text?

Specifically exegete this ayah and demonstrate to us why you feel as you do?

Let?s review your examples one at a time, in reverse order, starting with sura 55?

5556 In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-

Apparently these DEMONIC locusts are capable of other human things hmm???

Demonic locusts??? Dont make me laugh.

Let?s review your ignorance?

Feehinna qasiratu alttarfi lam yatmithhunna insun qablahum wala jannun

5556 In them restraining the eyes, were not touched (by) a human before them, and nor Jinn.

First?what are the Jinn?.exactly?.

= ?janna?

?janna? definition

Singular. Masculine. Overshadowed; Covered, to be dark, cover, wrap, conceal, be mad, dark, be hidden to, be excited, veiling, or concealing from the sense, intelligent invisible bodies predominantly of the fiery or of the aerial quality, diabolical or demonical; a great serpent.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 462 - 464
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 104 - 105

So?right from the start, we have the understanding that the Koranic Jinn are

Intelligent
They have bodies
They are invisible
Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire
They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings
Demonical
Likened to a great serpent

Do I need to reference the Book of Revelation, or are you familiar with the parallel descriptions that the authors of the Koran are using??

Next?please review a few of the key terms used in this ayah?

= ?qasiratu?

?qasiratu? definition

Restraining, modest (looks). It comes from the root ?qasara?, which means it, (a thing, i.e. anything) was, or became, short; it was, or became too short; he left, desisted from, neglected, or left undone, a thing, or part thereof, from inability; he left or relinquished it; he made it short; he shortened it; took from its length. The night withheld them; namely a company of riders upon camels or other beasts. He beat, washed, and whitened, the cloth, or garment. The falling, or stopping, or coming short of accomplishing an affair; or of doing what one aught, or is commanded to do; or flagging, or remissness. The act of confining, restricting, limiting. to shorten, cut short, curtail, confine, restrict. It was, or became, short, or too short. The afternoon or evening; the time before the sun becomes yellow; the time of the mixing of the darkness. A palace; a pavilion, or kind of building wholly or for the most part isolated, sometimes on the top of a larger building, i.e. a belvedere, and sometimes projecting from a larger building, and generally consisting of one room if forming a part of a larger building or connected with another building. A well known type of edifice; a mansion or house; or any house or chamber of stone. Large and dry, or large and thick, or dry, firewood. The necks of men, and of camels.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2532 - 2536
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 456

= ?ttarfi?

?ttarfi? definition

Eye; glance; sight; looking; blinking; Yemenite noble messenger. Noble man in respect of ancestry. It comes from the root ?tarafa?, which means he looked from the outer angle of the eye; or he twinkled with his eye; he put the edge of his eyelid in motion, or in a state of commotion; to twinkle (eyes), hurt (the eye) and make it water, be newly acquired (property), descend from an ancient family, attack the extremity of the enemy lines, chose a thing. It (property) was recently, or newly, acquired; or it (a thing) was good (and recent or new or fresh). He, a man, fought around the army. Anything chosen or choice. A generous horse., one that is looked at because of its beauty. A horse long in the legs or the neck, having the ears pointed, tapered, or slender at the extremities. The extremity or end of anything; a side; a lateral, or an outward, or adjacent, part or portion; a region, district, quarter, or tract; and a part, portion, piece of a thing. The tongue.

the putting the eyelids in motion, or in a state of commotion, in looking. The act of looking. The eye. The slapping with the hand upon the extremity of the eye; the striking upon the head. The name of two stars, so called because they are regarded as the two eyes of Leo; one of the mansions of the moon; or the star in the face of Leo; or the bright star on the hinder, southern leg or foot (i.e. claw) of cancer.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 1841- 1846
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 337 -338

Thus?.it is clear that your example, from sura 55, demonstrates my position quite well..

Furthermore, as sura 55 is completely Biblical material?

We are told this from the very start of the sura?.

AAallama alqur-ana

552 He taught/instructed the Koran.

= ?AAallama?

?AAallama? definition

Masculine singular. He taught. An impression, or impress; or a footstep, or track, or trace. Of a garment, or piece of cloth i.e. the ornamental, or figured, or variegated border of borders thereof; the figured or variegated, or embroidered, work or decoration, in the borders thereof. A way-mark; i.e. a thing set up or erected in the way, or, in the deserts or waterless deserts for guidance, for the guidance of those going astray. A separation between two lands; a mountain; a long mountain. A banner or standard, to which the soldiers congregate; the thing i.e. flag , or strip of cloth that is tied upon the spear; the chief of a people or party. A proper name of a person or place. It comes from the root ?alama?, which means to mark, sign, distinguish. He knew it; or he was, or became, acquainted with it; or he knew it truly, or certainly. He knew a thing intuitively and inferentially. He marked it. He, a man, had a fissure in his upper lip; or in one of its two sides. Knowledge.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 383 - 385

And?a review of what the Koran is?.

= ?alqur-ana?

?alqur-ana? definition

Originally meaning the Collection; ?I collected together the thing? or ?I read, or recited, the book or scripture?; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Mohammad; it also signifies the revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.

is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.

It comes from the root ?qara?a?, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449

Thus?it is pretty clear what will be following this introduction?.Biblical material?

In a nutshell, this sura (once again) proclaims the divinity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!!

The Biblical Book of Revelation was utilized by the authors of the Koran in their construction of this sura?and much of the Koranic concepts of Heaven/Hell/& Jinns, all had their genesis in the Book of Revelation?.!

This sura more or less ?separates? its topics by the following phrase?

Fabi-ayyi ala-i rabbikuma tukaththibani

5513 Then with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny?

The two (twain) that it is referring to is mankind and the Jinns?

Hence, the ayah in question is also fully loaded with Biblical ?Jinn? material.

It should be pointed-out that the demonic locusts as described in Revelation chapter 9 are the source material for the Koranic concept of ?Jinns??.

Let?s quickly review?

Fa-itha inshaqqati alssamao fakanat wardatan kaalddihani

5537 So if the sky/space split/cut open, so it was a red/a rose as/like the paint/painted with oil.

= ?inshaqqati?

?inshaqqati? definition

Feminine singular. She rent asunder. It comes from the root ?shaqqa?, which means to split, cleave, spread (in the sky), lightning, place under difficulty, impose hard condition. The half of a thing of any kind, or the half of a thing when it is cloven; or split, or divided lengthwise. The counterpart of a person or thing. A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1575 - 1579
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 295 - 296

= ?wardatan?

?wardatan? definition

Noun. A bright or yellowish bay color; a color between that of a horse that is red inclining to yellow. Bloom; bud; rose; hide. It comes from the root ?warada?, which means to be present, arrive at (any water to drink), go down into, draw near to (a place). A horse, or other thing, of a red color inkling to yellow, beautiful in everything. Bold or daring; an epithet applied to a man. A lion.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2935 - 2936
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 606 - 607

= ?ddihani?

?ddihani? definition

Noun. A red hide; red leather; and shall become red, or of a rose color, or of a red color inkling to yellow, or like the hide that is of a pure red color; and shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror, like diverse oils; slippery; oil. It is also a plural of ?duhnun?, which means oil. Oil with which one anoints It comes from the root ?dahana/dahina?, which means to anoint, strike (with a stick), moisten, blandish, pleasantly smooth, agreeable and suave, dissemble with, coax, be pliant, grease, dis-simulate.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 926 - 927
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 606 - 607

Mentioned in this ayah?

The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.
A horse? A bright or yellowish bay color; a color between that of a horse that is red inclining to yellow.
An epithet applied to a man. A lion.
A red hide; red leather; and shall become red, or of a rose color, or of a red color inkling to yellow, or like the hide that is of a pure red color; and shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror.

Thus?.just from these two ayahs pulled out from sura 55, we have been told the following regarding the Jinn

Intelligent
They have bodies
They are invisible
Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire
They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings
Demonical
Likened to a great serpent
8 ) The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.
An epithet applied to a man. A lion.
shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror.

So?I ask you?.

With which of your Lord?s blessings will you deny?.?

shuaib

apple pie,

Jinn warning other Jinn?.?! Exactly how do you derive that from the text?
Specifically exegete this ayah and demonstrate to us why you feel as you do?

Allow me to enlighten you.

6130 Ya maAAshara aljinni waal-insi OH ASSEMBLY OF MEN AND JINN, alam ya/tikum rusulun HAVE NOT COME TO YOU MESSENGERS minkum FROM AMONGST YOU yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee wayunthiroonakum liqaa yawmikum setting forth unto you my signs and warning of the day.. etc

That you could not understand even this obvious verse shows that you are not attempting to understand the Quran... your only desire is to find cannon fodder for your crusade.

First?what are the Jinn?.exactly?.

Before we start, you can go ahead and omit references The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar from your discussions. I have found that dictionary to be fraught with inaccuracies, the topic of jinn being a prime example. Those definitions are NOT based on the language, they are based on traditions like HADITH.

You go on to provide a dizzying amount of text, however, not in ANY instance did you explain how INSECTS or LOCUSTS fit into the picture. WASNT THAT MY MAIN COMPLAINT TO YOU?

I am not arguing with you about them being some humanoid creature...

Intelligent - agree
They have bodies - agree
They are invisible - for sake of argument, agree
Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire - DISAGREE, only JANN have been linked to smokeless fire, and that was only in their CREATION
They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings - DISAGREE, meaning based on HADITH
Demonical - DISAGREE, although the word jinn may be used to demons/ghosts, it is not EXCLUSIVELY used in such a way
Likened to a great serpent - DISAGREE, based on HADITH
8 ) The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being. - DISAGREE, have no idea what source you got this from... BIBLE? Aren't we deriving the meaning of jinn from Arabic/Quran??
An epithet applied to a man. A lion. - again DISAGREE, no viable source
shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror. - DISAGREE, what on earth???

For your points 5 onwards, you have NOT used reliable sources and CERTAINLY have not derived meanings from the Quran. You simply slide in Biblical material thinking somehow we'll be duped into thinking its from our own books.

Nice try.

Another bizarre thing you've started is using random words from random verses like 5537, to support your claims. 5537 is giving an example of the end of days, and somehow you link the words to the definition of Jinn? What's the matter, running out of material?? Now you just randomly pluck words from other verses and hope no one notices that the verse has nothing to do with jinn???

I on the other hand have given Quranic verses directly showing JINN have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with locusts/insects. They listened to the Quran, they warned of the day of judgement, etc etc etc.

You conveniently ignored the verses that you'd have a harder time twisting to your ways, and again you could not provide WHERE Lane has mentioned JINN=LOCUSTS.

Is this the kind of reasoning and debating Muslims should expect of all Christians??

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

Quote
Jinn warning other Jinn?.?! Exactly how do you derive that from the text?
Specifically exegete this ayah and demonstrate to us why you feel as you do?

Allow me to enlighten you.

6130 Ya maAAshara aljinni waal-insi OH ASSEMBLY OF MEN AND JINN, alam ya/tikum rusulun HAVE NOT COME TO YOU MESSENGERS minkum FROM AMONGST YOU yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee wayunthiroonakum liqaa yawmikum setting forth unto you my signs and warning of the day.. etc

That you could not understand even this obvious verse shows that you are not attempting to understand the Quran... your only desire is to find cannon fodder for your crusade.

I specifically requested for you to exegete the ayah yourself.

What?s the matter?.may take too much of your precious time?or you don?t have any references?or, better yet?.you flat out don?t know how to exegete?

Which is it?.?

Quote
First?what are the Jinn?.exactly?.

Before we start, you can go ahead and omit references The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar from your discussions. I have found that dictionary to be fraught with inaccuracies, the topic of jinn being a prime example. Those definitions are NOT based on the language, they are based on traditions like HADITH.

Wrong.

If you actually owned a copy of Omar?s Dictionary (which you obviously don?t because that would require an expenditure that you are unwilling to put into the understanding of your book of faith); then you would have known that Omar quotes Lane?s Lexicon almost exclusively.

You go on to provide a dizzying amount of text, however, not in ANY instance did you explain how INSECTS or LOCUSTS fit into the picture.

Don?t worry?.we are building to that?

You need to be more concerned about what we have covered thus far, and how it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the authors of the Koran copied Book of Revelation material. wink

I am not arguing with you about them being some humanoid creature...

As if you actually could?

Intelligent - agree
They have bodies - agree
They are invisible - for sake of argument, agree

So far so good?

Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire - DISAGREE, only JANN have been linked to smokeless fire, and that was only in their CREATION

Apparently, you have not looked at sura 100?

They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings - DISAGREE, meaning based on HADITH

Wrong.

Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

Demonical - DISAGREE, although the word jinn may be used to demons/ghosts, it is not EXCLUSIVELY used in such a way

Wrong.

Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

Likened to a great serpent - DISAGREE, based on HADITH

Wrong.

Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

8 ) The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being. - DISAGREE, have no idea what source you got this from... BIBLE? Aren't we deriving the meaning of jinn from Arabic/Quran??

Again?Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

An epithet applied to a man. A lion. - again DISAGREE, no viable source

Again?Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror. - DISAGREE, what on earth???

Again?Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

For your points 5 onwards, you have NOT used reliable sources and CERTAINLY have not derived meanings from the Quran.

So?.now you are calling E.W. Lane, the worlds leading Arabist of all time, into question?

And your grounds for doing this??

Pulling it straight from out of your gluteus region.

You never bother to reference your ?opinion? because it is exactly that?opinion?.

You have no leg to stand on.

No counter argument.

No references.

Nothing.

Period.

I on the other hand have given verses to show that JINN have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with locusts/insects.

The only thing that you have shown is sheer ignorance with regard to your book of faith?

Your response is quite pathetic.

Thanks?

shuaib

apple pie,

Again, not one mention of where the idea of LOCUSTS enters.

Again, ignored the verses that specifically speak of jinn LISTENING to Quran, WARNING people of the last day, etc etc.

I specifically requested for you to exegete the ayah yourself. What?s the matter?.may take too much of your precious time?or you don?t have any references?or, better yet?.you flat out don?t know how to exegete?

Perhaps I should have explained that I speak Arabic and this is not some complex meaning I am deriving/exegeting. Do you speak Arabic? Do you know how silly it is, what you are saying? The verse says in the most plain Arabic ya'teekum (came to YOU PLURAL) minKUM (from amongst you plural) and is addressed to insaan and jin! Where is the confusion here? What EXACTLY do you need more exegesis on? The term min, the term kum??? You could write a 5 page essay if you wanted to on all these terms!

If you actually owned a copy of Omar?s Dictionary (which you obviously don?t because that would require an expenditure that you are unwilling to put into the understanding of your book

I do not own Quranic Dictionary, NOR do I own Lane's. However, I have seen plenty of direct quotes from QD on this forum, and several other members including myself agreed that its definitions were OFTEN not true.

As far as what i DO own, I own a 20 volume copy of Lisaan-ul-Arab and a oversized 10-volume copy of Taj-ul-Aroos. The latter, you may or may not realize, is what Lane used as HIS primary source. Both of the lexicons I own are more ancient and more well respected than Lane's, although Lane's is good like I said before, but just too brief.

So believe me when I tell you that throwing some random definitions from QD is not going to impress me in the least, though you may impress yourself.

As far as the rest of your reply where you CLAIM that all of those points are mentioned in Lane's, do you own a CD-rom copy of Lane's. Could you just post word for word what is listed in Lane's to support your point, for my benefit? And then I will refute it using my more ancient more primary source material.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

Quote
If you actually owned a copy of Omar?s Dictionary (which you obviously don?t because that would require an expenditure that you are unwilling to put into the understanding of your book

I do not own Quranic Dictionary, NOR do I own Lane's.

Thanks for being honest.

Now?you can kindly retract your prior statements regarding my references to these Lexicons, as not being applicable to the discussion at hand?as you obviously do not know what they state?nor can you produce anything counter to what they state.

However, I have seen plenty of direct quotes from QD on this forum, and several other members including myself agreed that its definitions were OFTEN not true.

Then feel completely free to counter-reference any of the definitions that I posited.

If you could, you would have already done so.

As it is, you can only bark out your distain and dismissal of the truth?

As far as what i DO own, I own a 20 volume copy of Lisaan-ul-Arab and a oversized 10-volume copy of Taj-ul-Aroos. The latter, you may or may not realize, is what Lane used as HIS primary source. Both of the lexicons I own are more ancient and more well respected than Lane's, although Lane's is good like I said before, but just too brief.

If you own these Lexicons, then do you also know how to use them??

Referencing your position is what it is all about. You have yet to do this.

As far as Lane?s Lexicon, it is an integrated compilation of scores of all the highest quality Lexicography in one location. Hence, it draws upon the best, including the TA, and has been held in the highest regard for the past 150 years.

So believe me when I tell you that throwing some random definitions from QD is not going to impress me in the least, though you may impress yourself.

I don?t post ?random? definitions.

I post the tried and true definitions from the classic lexicons.

You can see this for yourself; I post what the Lexicons state.

You can verify this for yourself as truth if you are serious enough.

As far as the rest of your reply where you CLAIM that all of those points are mentioned in Lane's,

It?s fact.

Apparently, you are too lazy too look, as it may cause you to re-evaluate your position regarding your book of faith?

do you own a CD-rom copy of Lane's.

I own the eight volume set.

Could you just post word for word what is listed in Lane's to support your point, for my benefit?

Done.

But?..then again?how exactly would you even know?.as you don?t put any effort whatsoever into understanding your book of faith?.

You cannot even so much as ?google? a reply.

You can only blow smoke.

And then I will refute it using my more ancient more primary source material.

Begin...or do you require a written invitation...

We will be anxiously waiting.

Quote
I specifically requested for you to exegete the ayah yourself. What?s the matter?.may take too much of your precious time?or you don?t have any references?or, better yet?.you flat out don?t know how to exegete?

Perhaps I should have explained that I speak Arabic and this is not some complex meaning I am deriving/exegeting. Do you speak Arabic? Do you know how silly it is, what you are saying?

Please inform us exactly how the colloquial aspects of Modern Arabic are going to help you in determining the intended meanings of the written Classic Arabic of your book of faith??

I can?t wait to hear your reply.

The verse says in the most plain Arabic ya'teekum (came to YOU PLURAL) minKUM (from amongst you plural) and is addressed to insaan and jin! Where is the confusion here? What EXACTLY do you need more exegesis on? The term min, the term kum??? You could write a 5 page essay if you wanted to on all these terms!

Where are the references that you said that you had...?

Again, not one mention of where the idea of LOCUSTS enters.

Well?then let?s continue on with sura 55?

We already know that sura 55 is discussing Jinns and Humans.

Let?s review the intro, once, more, and see what 55.5 tells us?

Summary

The merciful. (55.1)
He taught/instructed the Koran. (55.2)
He created the human/mankind. (55.3)
He taught/instructed him the intended meaning. (55.4)
The sun and the moon with a count/calculation. (55.5)
AND, the star/planet
AND, and the trees, they prostrate. (55.6)
8 ) AND, the sky/space He rose it,
AND, He laid/put/raised the scale/measuring instrument. (55.7)

First?.the intro regarding what will be discussed in the following ayahs?

AAallamahu albayana

554 He taught/instructed him the evidence/logic.

= ?AAallama?

?AAallama? definition

Masculine singular. He taught. An impression, or impress; or a footstep, or track, or trace. Of a garment, or piece of cloth i.e. the ornamental, or figured, or variegated border of borders thereof; the figured or variegated, or embroidered, work or decoration, in the borders thereof. A way-mark; i.e. a thing set up or erected in the way, or, in the deserts or waterless deserts for guidance, for the guidance of those going astray. A separation between two lands; a mountain; a long mountain. A banner or standard, to which the soldiers congregate; the thing i.e. flag , or strip of cloth that is tied upon the spear; the chief of a people or party. A proper name of a person or place. It comes from the root ?alama?, which means to mark, sign, distinguish. He knew it; or he was, or became, acquainted with it; or he knew it truly, or certainly. He knew a thing intuitively and inferentially. He marked it. He, a man, had a fissure in his upper lip; or in one of its two sides. Knowledge.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 383 - 385

= ?bayana?

?bayana? definition

Masculine singular. A man, or thing, bearing evidence of a quality that he, or it, possesses. A man perspicuous, or clear, or distinct in speech or language; or chaste therein; or eloquent; fluent, elegant and elevated in speech and having little hesitation therein. Signifies the being distinct or apparent. The means by which one makes a thing distinct, apparent, manifest, evident, clear, plain, or perspicuous; this is of two kinds; one is a circumstantial indication or evidence; or a thing indicating or giving evidence of a circumstance or state that is a result, or an effect, of a quality or an attribute; the other is a verbal indication or evidence, either spoken or written; it is also applied to language that discovers and shows the meaning that is intended; and an explanation of confused and vague language; or the eduction of a thing from a state of dubiousness to a state of clearness; or making the meaning apparent to the mind so that it becomes distinct from other meanings and from what may be confounded with it. Clear; open to see; self expressive; severing. Declaration; explanation; argument; rhetoric; clear meaning; intelligent and distinct speech. It applies to both thought and speech, in as much as it comprises the faculty of making a thing or an idea apparent to the mind and conceptually distinct from other things as well as the power to express the cognition in spoken or written language. It comes from the root ?bana?, which means to be distinct and separate, far away, remote from, divorced (women), clear, obvious , appear, explain. It, a thing, or an affair, or a case, was, or became distinct as though separate from others, and thus apparent, manifest, evident, clear, plain, or perspicuous; and it was, or became known.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 285 - 289
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 70 ? 71

Thus, what follows is an explanation of the true and intended meaning that is to be made distinct?

Alshshamsu waalqamaru bihusbanin

555 The sun and the moon with a count/calculation.

= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolt; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 564 - 567
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 122 - 123
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 34

Thus, it is clear that we have our first clue in 55.5 that a calamity will occur that involves

A punishment in which man is tried
Evil
LOCUSTS
Smoke
Fire
Running of appointed courses
All of these things are stated in relation to the moon and sun which will be blotted-out due to the darkness of the swarms of demonic locusts, as foretold in the Book of Revelation?

Beginning to see the light??

No pun intended.

Compare this to what is stated in sura 18?

Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba wa-imma an tattakhitha feehim husnan

18.86 Until when he reached the sun's sunset/west, he found it departing/declining (setting) in (at a) water well/spring mixed with black (foul) mud, and he found at it a nation, We said "You the two horned one, either that you torture, and either you take in them a goodness/beauty."

= ?hami-atin?

?hami-atin? definition

A thing prohibited, or interdicted; and not to be approached. An epithet. A place of herbage, or pasture, and of water, prohibited to the people. The practicing abstinence; especially from things injurious in a case of sickness; the abstaining, or desisting, from eating. Disdain, scorn, or indignation, and anger; because a means of protection; care of what is sacred, or inviolable, or of what one is bound to respect, or honor, and to defend, and of religion, to avoid suspicion. Zealotry or tribal pride; affection; scorn indignation, stubborn disdain. It comes from the root ?hama?, which means the venom, or poison, and hurt, of a scorpion, and of anything that stings or bites; the sting of the hornet, and of the scorpion, and the like, and of the serpent; becomes the venom comes forth from it. He prohibited it, or interdicted it; or he protected it, defended it, or guarded it from, or against encroachment, invasion, or attack. Said of the day and of an oven. It was, or became vehemently hot; the iron nail was, or became, hot.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 651 - 652
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 138

= ?qarnayni?

?qarnayni? definition

The two horned one. It comes from the root ?qarana?, which means the part of the head of a human being which in an animal is the place whence the horn grows; or the side, or upper side, of the head; or more exactly the temporal ridge which is the middle and main part of the head (i.e. of the cranium), on the right and on the left. One who opposes or contends with another in science or in fight, an opponent; a competitor; an adversary; an antagonist; or ones equal or match or fellow. Ones equal in age. To join on thing to another, couple. People of one time succeeding another among whom is a prophet, or class of learned men, whether its years be many or few. Of a desert, the most elevated part. A pod like that of the locust tree. An issue of sweat. A cord of twisted bark which is bound upon the neck of each of the plowing bulls.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2987 - 2988
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 452 - 453

So?here the plot thickens, as we are given more information regarding the Jinn

They have the sting of a scorpion
They are in conjunction with the Second Beast with TWO HORNS (from the earth) as described in the Book of Revelation.

Thumma atbaAAa sababan

18.89 Then he followed the woman a reason/motive/connection.

= ?atbaAAa?

?atbaAAa? definition

Singular. He followed; to follow; follow up; make to follow; pursue, prosecute. The follower of women; or a passionate lover, and follower of a woman wherever she goes, and a sedulous seeker of women. A species of flying things, as well as birds. The shade or shadow. Also applied as an epithet to the legs of a beast. A jinnee, or genie, that accompanies a woman and follows her wherever she goes, loving her. It comes from the root ?tabi?a?, which means to follow, come with, imitate, obey, be the follower of. He followed; or went, or walked behind or after; him or it, namely a people or company of men; he went with him, or it, when the latter had passed by him. He accepted a reference from his debtor to another for the payment of what was owed to him.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 293 - 296
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 73 -74

Here, we are told that this type of Jinn likes to follow the ?woman??.an obvious referral to the woman as described in the Book of Revelation.

Hatta itha balagha bayna alssaddayni wajada min doonihima qawman la yakadoona yafqahoona qawlan

18.93 Until when he reached between the two barriers/obstacles/mountains, he found from other than them a nation they are not about to/almost understand a saying/opinion and belief.

= ?ssaddayni?

?ssaddayni? definition

Dual noun. Two barriers. It comes from the root ?sadda?, which means he closed, or closed up an interstice, or intervening space; and stopped or stopped up or repaired and made firm or strong. Said of a multitudinous swarm of locusts; said of a collection of clouds rising. A swarm of locusts obstructing the horizon; locusts that have obstructed, or obstructing the horizon, by their multitude; signifying that which obstructs the horizon and therefore an epithet. A black cloud that has risen in any tract of the sky. Shade or shadow; cover; protection. To make barrier, rampart, obstacle, bar, stop, close, obstruct, dam, shut. Any building or construction with which a place is closed or closed up, or stopped or stopped up; a dam; a thing intervening as a separation, a partition, a fence, a barrier, a rampart, or an obstacle or obstruction between two other things; and a mountain.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1328 - 1330
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 253

Here, we are told that the Jinns (i.e. LOCUSTS) are so large in number that they obstruct the horizon, just as stated in sura 55?

Qaloo ya tha alqarnayni inna ya/jooja wama/jooja mufsidoona fee al-ardi fahal najAAalu laka kharjan AAala an tajAAala baynana wabaynahum saddan

18.94 They said "You (owner) of the two horns, that Yagog and Magog (are) corrupting in the earth/Planet Earth, so do we make/put for you (a) royalty/retainer/expense/tribute on that you put/create between us and between them a barrier/obstacle ?"

= ?saddan?

?saddan? definition

Barrier. It comes from the root ?sadda?, which means he closed, or closed up an interstice, or intervening space; and stopped or stopped up or repaired and made firm or strong. Said of a multitudinous swarm of locusts; said of a collection of clouds rising. A swarm of locusts obstructing the horizon; locusts that have obstructed, or obstructing the horizon, by their multitude; signifying that which obstructs the horizon and therefore an epithet. A black cloud that has risen in any tract of the sky. Shade or shadow; cover; protection. To make barrier, rampart, obstacle, bar, stop, close, obstruct, dam, shut. Any building or construction with which a place is closed or closed up, or stopped or stopped up; a dam; a thing intervening as a separation, a partition, a fence, a barrier, a rampart, or an obstacle or obstruction between two other things; and a mountain.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1328 - 1330
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 253

And?once again?the swarms of locusts (i.e. JINN) are used in conjunction with the beast with two horns?

Here is a Koranic JINN recap

Intelligent
They have bodies
They are invisible
Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire
They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings
Demonical
Likened to a great serpent
8 ) The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.
An epithet applied to a man. A lion.
shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror.
A punishment in which man is tried
Evil
LOCUSTS
Smoke
Fire
Running of appointed courses
All of these things are stated in relation to the moon and sun which will be blotted-out due to the darkness of the swarms of demonic locusts, as foretold in the Book of Revelation?
18 ) They have the sting of a scorpion
They are in conjunction with the Second Beast with TWO HORNS (from the earth) as described in the Book of Revelation.

So?I ask you?.again?

With which of your Lord?s blessings will you deny?.?

shuaib

Dear Apple pie,

Whats with the twilight zone logic? You?re the one claiming jinn=locusts, therefore the burden of proof is on you, plain and simple. It?s not my burden to prove to you what jinn are, I am just questioning your evidence.

From the start I?ve asked you a very simple question. Show me where in LANE?S lexicon, it says that Jinn=locusts. I did not ask for the exegesis of other verses, I did not ask about QD, nor about Dictionary Glossary of the Quran. I asked specifically about the section on Jinn in Lanes, and not a paraphrase ?it says so,? I mean the EXACT wording and phrase that it uses to show that jinn=locusts. It should only be a line or partial sentence reference, so it shouldn?t be too hard.

The fact that you are doing everything BUT providing that evidence suggests you don?t have it! If I actually had a copy of Lane?s, this discussion would not have been needed.

Please inform us exactly how the colloquial aspects of Modern Arabic are going to help you in determining the intended meanings of the written Classic Arabic of your book of faith??

Jokes on you friend, for assuming I speak colloquial Arabic. I am not an arab. But why don?t you enlighten us on how colloquial, modern and classical Arabic differ in the terms ya?teekum and minkum. (this is obviously a rhetorical question, they don?t differ on those particular terms). My point was that asking someone to exegete a sentence like "the boy went to the store," makes you seem rather foolish. The meaning of that verse was OBVIOUS, no reading in between the lines is needed.

As far as QD is concerned, you can blab about it all you want, I perused it in stores, and have read its excerpts online... and in just that small sampling I found numerous errors/biases. That is a very inaccurate source to use... but of course you love it because it gives you more cannon fodder for your crusade. You honestly don't care whether its accurate or not, as long as it feeds into your propaganda. (Just one example of how QD is inaccurate, in its definition of khinzeer it claims the word is a combination of 2 roots, and impossibility in Arabic).

How do you react when muslims use apocryphal gospels to attack Christianity?

So please answer the simple question? does Lane?s specifically say anything about locusts in the section on jinn? Yes, or no. If yes, then WHAT exactly is said in Lane's?

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for finally mustering a reply?

Whats with the twilight zone logic? You?re the one claiming jinn=locusts, therefore the burden of proof is on you, plain and simple. It?s not my burden to prove to you what jinn are, I am just questioning your evidence.

What you are doing is falling flat on your face?again?.you must like it?

From the start I?ve asked you a very simple question. Show me where in LANE?S lexicon, it says that Jinn=locusts. I did not ask for the exegesis of other verses, I did not ask about QD, nor about Dictionary Glossary of the Quran. I asked specifically about the section on Jinn in Lanes, and not a paraphrase ?it says so,? I mean the EXACT wording and phrase that it uses to show that jinn=locusts. It should only be a line or partial sentence reference, so it shouldn?t be too hard.

I have to ask if you somehow loose your vision when reading my posts?

The fact that you are doing everything BUT providing that evidence suggests you don?t have it! If I actually had a copy of Lane?s, this discussion would not have been needed.

Maybe you could help us out with your fictitious 20 volume ?copy of Lisaan-ul-Arab and a oversized 10-volume copy of Taj-ul-Aroos"?. roll

Quote
Please inform us exactly how the colloquial aspects of Modern Arabic are going to help you in determining the intended meanings of the written Classic Arabic of your book of faith??

Jokes on you friend, for assuming I speak colloquial Arabic. I am not an arab.

Gosh?what a surprise? D

As far as QD is concerned, you can blab about it all you want, I perused it in stores, and have read its excerpts online... and in just that small sampling I found numerous errors/biases. That is a very inaccurate source to use... but of course you love it because it gives you more cannon fodder for your crusade. You honestly don't care whether its accurate or not, as long as it feeds into your propaganda. (Just one example of how QD is inaccurate, in its definition of khinzeer it claims the word is a combination of 2 roots, and impossibility in Arabic).

What happened to the specific examples that I asked for??

How do you react when muslims use apocryphal gospels to attack Christianity?

Why don?t you start a new thread, as you have shown that you know nothing about this one?

So please answer the simple question? does Lane?s specifically say anything about locusts in the section on jinn? Yes, or no. If yes, then WHAT exactly is said in Lane's?

I just love it when Muslims come to a Christian for answers that pertain to their book of faith.

The answer is yes.

Here?

And here?

Thanks?

shuaib

hi apple pie,

Thanks for finally mustering a reply?

You're welcome, actually I do have quite a busy life outside the forums. I only stop by once in a while usually.

I have to ask if you somehow loose your vision when reading my posts?

No, actually I've read all of the irrelevant fluff you've posted.

Don't you feel stupid yet apple pie? It amazes me. I've asked you the simplest of questions that does not require ANY interpretation or thought. I've simply asked WHERE in Lane's lexicon is there a statement that equates jinn with demonic locusts. How is it that you can't/WONT even answer a question that does not even require any thought? Are you, say, HIDING SOMETHING??

Still waiting.

Here?

And here?

Well here is where your ignorance is being exposed.

First of all, the second word HUSBAAN, you left out the HA. Can you even read Arabic? Neither of these 2 words has ANYTHING to do with locusts OR the root JINN. They are different roots, and the WHOLE time we have been talking about the root of JINN. What is said about the word/root JINN in Lane's lexicon?

Do YOU even own a copy of Lane's? I'm beginning to doubt it! I wish someone on this forum who had a CD-rom copy would post the page for us.

Wakas

peace shuaib, all,

From PRL

= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk

I remember writing this root and I have a copy of Lanes. It does not mention 'locusts' in the root. I checked it again.

As a side note
I noted something interesting, when it says iblis became of the JNN , it says this means he adopted the disposition of the JNN. Similar to us humans when people compare us to animals "strong as a Lion" "he's like a fox" "they are sheep" etc. it doesn't mean we are or become the animal, we take on its characteristics. Just like iBLiS took on the characteristics of the JNN, i.e. unsound etc. (roots can be checked in PRL).

Wakas

shuaib

salam wakas,

thanks for posting that. i had a feeling that was the case (I didn't find any such nonsense in my lexicons either), and it explains our christian friend's great reluctance at being straightforward. I forgot about Iblis actually. I'm surprised our Christian friend didn't realize that he was claiming that Iblis is actually a locust.

dear apple pie,

Let me just ask you, would Jesus have done that? Firstly, half your posts are wise-cracks, and then it appears the other half are filled with false information. From the start you were asked a simple question, and instead of a simple answer, you gave smokescreen after smokescreen. It appears you are on a crusade with a mission to defame Islam any which way you can.. but being a Christian, at least be more straightforward and honest, and if you dont know or don't understand, just say so.

Using these kinds of methods, the only person you hurt is yourself.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply.

I've simply asked WHERE in Lane's lexicon is there a statement that equates jinn with demonic locusts.

The equating of Jinn to Locusts is to be found by defining the Arabic terms and then plugging them into the contexts of the ayahs and suras.

This is how proper exegesis is performed.

As it is, you cannot allow yourself to do either?

Let me show you Lane?s classic definitions, and where they are used in your book of faith?

Let?s first review this example?

= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolt; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 564 - 567
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 122 - 123
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 34

?husbanin? can be found in Sura 55.5?.and is mentioned in conjunction with the sun and moon (i.e. blocking them from view, as described in the Book of Revelation).

And?.what is blocking the view??

Locusts; dust; smoke; fire?.

Summary

The merciful. (551)
He taught/instructed the Koran. (552)
He created the human/mankind. (553)
He taught/instructed him the evidence/logic. (554)
The sun and the moon with a count/calculation. (555)
AND, the star/planet
AND, and the trees, they (B) prostrate. (556)
8 ) AND, the sky/space He rose it,
AND, He laid/put/raised the scale/measuring instrument. (557)
That you not tyrannize/exceed the limit in the scale/measuring instrument. (558 )
AND, keep up the weight/measure with the just/equitable,
AND, do not reduce/decrease (cheat) in the scale/measuring instrument. (559)
AND, the earth/Planet Earth, He laid it for the creation. (5510)
In it (are) fruits
AND, the palm trees that of the buds/covers from which fruits
AND, flowers emerge. (5511)
AND, the seed/grain (of) the husk/chaff/external cover of seeds,
18 ) AND, the basil/fragrant plants. (5512)
SO, with which (of) your Lord's blessings (do) you deny/falsify?
He created the human/mankind from dry mud/clay as the pottery/earthenware. (55.14)
AND, He created the Jinn from (the) flaming blazing torch mixed with blackened smoke from fire. (55.15)

Thus, in this Biblical Eschatological sura, we already have the confirmation that Locusts have made their appearance on the scene, by the above definition?

Now?how do we know that the locusts are none other than the Jinn??

By simply looking at the context.

Observe that starting at ayah 55.5 (where the locusts are mentioned), we have concomitance via ?wa? and sequence via ?fa? all the way up to the Jinn in 55.15?

Hence, there can be no doubt that the locusts are just one attribute of the Jinn?.this is in addition to the other 19 that I posted in an earlier post ?.that got you so riled up?.

Compare to 55.15?

Wakhalaqa aljanna min marijin min narin

5515 And He created the Jinn from flaming blazing torch mixed with blackened smoke from fire.

= ?marijin?

?marijin? definition

A confused affair, or case; or error. Mixture, a mixture, or that which is mixed. A mixture of fire; or flame mixed with the black substance of fire; or flame of fire; or fire without smoke, whereof was created El-Jann, i.e. Iblees, the father of the Jinn, or Genii, or the Jinn collectively. Flame; fire free from smoke. It comes from the root ?maraja?, which means he (a beast of carriage) fed in a pasture. He sent a beast of carriage to pasture; or left it to pasture wheresoever it would; he pastured it. He mixed a thing with another thing, or two things together. He hath let them flow freely, yet so that one does not become mixed with the other; he hath made them flow. He marred or spoiled his affair. It (a deposit, and a covenant, and religion) became corrupt; impaired; spoiled; marred; or disordered. It (a ring on the finger, and an arrow) became unsteady.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, p. 2704
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 529

Here?we are told that Satan and the Jinn both emanate from the smoke.

Hence?.this is the same thing as stated in the Book of Revelation when the Abyss is opened and the Demonic locusts are set free such that they block out the light of day for their multitudes?

We have our first clue that Jinn are the locusts?

Next?from sura 18?

= ?ssaddayni?

?ssaddayni? definition

Dual noun. Two barriers. It comes from the root ?sadda?, which means he closed, or closed up an interstice, or intervening space; and stopped or stopped up or repaired and made firm or strong. Said of a multitudinous swarm of locusts; said of a collection of clouds rising. A swarm of locusts obstructing the horizon; locusts that have obstructed, or obstructing the horizon, by their multitude; signifying that which obstructs the horizon and therefore an epithet. A black cloud that has risen in any tract of the sky. Shade or shadow; cover; protection. To make barrier, rampart, obstacle, bar, stop, close, obstruct, dam, shut. Any building or construction with which a place is closed or closed up, or stopped or stopped up; a dam; a thing intervening as a separation, a partition, a fence, a barrier, a rampart, or an obstacle or obstruction between two other things; and a mountain.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1328 - 1330
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 253

It would be rather hard for the Muslim to miss the obvious Book of Revelation material contained in sura 18??here we have the second beast with two horns, from the earth?and, once again?the swarms of locusts?i.e. Jinn

Let me just ask you, would Jesus have done that?

Done what?lie like you did??

Lie #1)?..your quote?
Perhaps I should have explained that I speak Arabic

Lie #2)?..your quote?
As far as what i DO own, I own a 20 volume copy of Lisaan-ul-Arab

Lie #3)?..your quote?
and a oversized 10-volume copy of Taj-ul-Aroos
.

No thanks?.

Firstly, half your posts are wise-cracks, and then it appears the other half is filled with false information.

Operative word??appears??.

Since you are unable to refute my material?.how exactly would you even know??

Your constant begging & pleading with a Christian to give you the definitions of the words in your book of faith, is rather degrading towards you?.don?t you think??

It is rather clear that you cannot be bothered with matters that require serious inquiry.

After all?.you are Muslim?

Take care?

Tay

Peace Apple Pie,

Your comments to Shuaib

It is rather clear that you cannot be bothered with matters that require serious inquiry.
After all?.you are Muslim?

reflect the same nasty attitude that you started with. Why are you here?
If you have a problem with Muslims, then leave.

Peace,
Tay

shuaib

salam tay,

ya i dont think apple pie realizes that all he does is foster dislike towards the religion he is representing. it's ironic that his is mostly a message of hate whereas his religion supposedly is a religion of love. To say "After all, you are a Muslim," shows what his true motivations are and what racist thoughts go on in his mind.

apple pie,

I'll ignore the snide remarks again (turn the other cheek).

There are 2 problems with your method of "exegesis."

You employ inaccurate (apocryphal) sources.

I've already mentioned the problems with QD (e.g., claims that a word is composed of 2 roots).

You quote a source which claims a primary meaning of husbaan is calamity, which is totally untrue. HUSBAAN is a neutral word that primarily is used to indicate a specified amount or return, but primarily the meaning is about counting. It does not mean calamity anymore than RESULT means calamity. In surah 55 (which you quote) it is used to claim that the sun/moon are under hisaab/counting i.e. a measured orbit.

It has NOTHING to do with blockage, or locusts.

(Incidentally, the reference for all of my claims here are straight from Lisaan-ul-Arab, Taj-ul-Aroos, or Lughaat-ul-Quran).

Using sources with false/biased information will lead to INCORRECT exegesis. You claim to use Lane's/other sources, but I think you rely primarily on the "other sources." You've tried pulling the wool over our eyes once already with respect to the root of jinn, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.

You use faulty logic in your exegesis.

The boy went to the store. And there he bought some bread.

According to your logic, the boy is a kind of bread. Needless to say this is a ridiculous statement, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Randomly linking words, claiming that just because the sentences are juxtaposed or connected with fa or wa, that the words are linked in meaning!

This reflects that you have made no real attempt to understand the verse, you simply are looking for cannon fodder for your crusade.

But that brings us back to the original question... does it say in Lane's that jinn have anything to do with locusts??? NO! The foremost Western Arabist according to you, did not think so, nor do ANY other lexicographers! And I bet, not even your faulty sources have directly claimed that jinn=locusts. You refuse to admit it but this idea is purely your own "brain"child. Nowhere do we find a person linking jinn with locusts except in your posts.

So in the future, use more accurate sources and use proper logic. The 3 equals 1 logic does not fly with most Muslims. And I bet most Christians would not approve of your tactics/rhetoric either.

Incidentally, OOPS of the day committed by apple pie

= ?marijin?

?marijin? definition

A confused affair, or case; or error. Mixture, a mixture, or that which is mixed. A mixture of fire; or flame mixed with the black substance of fire; or flame of fire; or fire without smoke, whereof was created El-Jann, i.e. Iblees, the father of the Jinn, or Genii, or the Jinn collectively. Flame; fire free from smoke. ....

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, p. 2704
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 529

Here?we are told that Satan and the Jinn both emanate from the smoke.