Lord of the universes! Rab ilAlamin !

Wakas

peace All,

I had a brief discussion with Apple Pie a while ago (Oct 04), and based on that discussion, I decided not to read Apple's future posts.

In a way, its a pity, because the quality of information presented is very good, but the logic is severely flawed. Most, if not all, of Apple's arguments can be defeated by cross-referencing occurrence.

Also, I never said anything until now because people need to find out for themselves and make up their own mind if someone's posts are worthy of reading or not, but I can now see its not just me who thinks this.

Wakas

Tay

Peace Wakas,

Personally speaking, I agree, in that he does present some very good information. This is why I choose to keep reading his posts. I also agree that the connections he makes are flawed, which is a lesson in itself. In all, I have no problem with the man/woman, though I can no longer debate with him/her as it has proven fruitless time and again.

But I do have a problem with sweeping insults and find it difficult to bite my tongue in those situations where a person is disrespectful, particularly in this case, since the moderators(yourself included) have been more than welcoming and tolerant towards him/her.

Peace,
Tay

Andya_Primanda

I agree with Tay, Apple Pie has been abusing our tolerance. I kinda expected Apple to be a fair debater that is capable is saying 'I am wrong' if proven wrong, but I now know that this person is not like that.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your kind words?

You quote a source which claims a primary meaning of husbaan is calamity, which is totally untrue. HUSBAAN is a neutral word that primarily is used to indicate a specified amount or return, but primarily the meaning is about counting. It does not mean calamity anymore than RESULT means calamity. In surah 55 (which you quote) it is used to claim that the sun/moon are under hisaab/counting i.e. a measured orbit.

It has NOTHING to do with blockage, or locusts.

(Incidentally, the reference for all of my claims here are straight from Lisaan-ul-Arab, Taj-ul-Aroos, or Lughaat-ul-Quran).

Thanks for positing your unreferenced opinion on the matter.

However, the classic definitions, as I have demonstrated, quite plainly paint the picture of a great calamity, comprised of punishment, evil, locusts, dust, smoke, and fire.

Using sources with false/biased information will lead to INCORRECT exegesis. You claim to use Lane's/other sources, but I think you rely primarily on the "other sources." You've tried pulling the wool over our eyes once already with respect to the root of jinn, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.

Lane is the ?gold standard? in properly exegeting the Koran.

It is liquid gold, actually.

You use faulty logic in your exegesis.

The boy went to the store. And there he bought some bread.

According to your logic, the boy is a kind of bread. Needless to say this is a ridiculous statement, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Randomly linking words, claiming that just because the sentences are juxtaposed or connected with fa or wa, that the words are linked in meaning!

I have presented the context of the ayahs used in my exegesis?.and you are free to check them for yourself.

Context?after all...is what clinches the whole deal?

But that brings us back to the original question... does it say in Lane's that jinn have anything to do with locusts??? NO! The foremost Western Arabist according to you, did not think so, nor do ANY other lexicographers! And I bet, not even your faulty sources have directly claimed that jinn=locusts. You refuse to admit it but this idea is purely your own "brain"child. Nowhere do we find a person linking jinn with locusts except in your posts.

I have already repeatedly answered your redd herring several times.

As you stated previously?

Quote
I've simply asked WHERE in Lane's lexicon is there a statement that equates jinn with demonic locusts.

Lane has indeed provided the classic definitions that lend ample credence to equate the Jinn to Locusts.

Let?s review this simple example?

Fabi-ayyi ala-i rabbikuma tukaththibani

5513 Then with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny?

= ?tukaththibani?

?tukaththibani? definition

Masculine dual. Will you twain deny. It comes from the root ?kadhaba?, which means to lie, say what is not a fact, lie to, falsely invent, tell lies about or against, fabricate a lie, relate a lie, say a falsehood, be wrong, be cut off, deceive, disappoint the expectation of. It is also said to signify he spoke truth; so as to bear two contradictory meanings.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2597 - 2600
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 481 ? 482

Observe that this question is directed at TWO entities.

What are the two entities??

Mankind.

Jinn.

This same exact phrase is repeated all the way through sura 55.

Ever wonder why?.?

It is because the entire sura pertains to the two.

Interestingly?..the very first time that this phrase is used in the sura, occurs in 55.13.

Let?s look?

The merciful. (551)
He taught/instructed the Koran. (552)
He created the human/mankind. (553)
He taught/instructed him the evidence/logic. (554)
The sun and the moon with a Calamity. (555)
AND, the star/planet
AND, and the trees, they (B) prostrate. (556)
8 ) AND, the sky/space He rose it,
AND, He laid/put/raised the scale/measuring instrument. (557)
That you not tyrannize/exceed the limit in the scale/measuring instrument. (558 )
AND, keep up the weight/measure with the just/equitable,
AND, do not reduce/decrease (cheat) in the scale/measuring instrument. (559)
AND, the earth/Planet Earth, He laid it for the creation. (5510)
In it (are) fruits
AND, the palm trees that of the buds/covers from which fruits
AND, flowers emerge. (5511)
AND, the seed/grain (of) the husk/chaff/external cover of seeds,
18 ) AND, the basil/fragrant plants. (5512)
SO, with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny? (55.13)
He created the human/mankind from dry mud/clay as the pottery/earthenware. (55.14)
AND, He created the Jinn from (the) flaming blazing torch mixed with blackened smoke from fire. (55.15)

Thus?we can clearly see that this phrase begins questioning Mankind and the Jinn BEFORE the ?creation? of Jinn in 55.15?..

This tells us that both Mankind and the Jinn had to have been described prior to 55.13.

Hence, since we now know that LOCUSTS are mentioned in 55.5, we can become quite confident that we were given an attribute of the Jinn in this ayah?

Additionally, guess where also makes an appearance?.?

That?s right?right in the heart of Jinn territory?.18.40?

Lane notes that the definition of LOCUSTS has also been assigned to 18.40?

Thus?we can see the evidence building beyond reasonable doubt?

Lastly?.

I?m glad to see that you only had to edit your post four times?

Last edited by shuaib on Tue May 10, 2005 746 pm; edited 4 times in total

Thanks?

khalil

Peace ApplePie

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

unknownuser

Thanks for positing your unreferenced opinion on the matter.

However, the classic definitions, as I have demonstrated, quite plainly paint the picture of a great calamity, comprised of punishment, evil, locusts, dust, smoke, and fire.

Does not need to be referenced, it was done so earlier.

Nevemind. Lets use your "definition"

= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolt; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

Your assertion is not correct since

1-) You are ignoring many other definitions, the definition does not have to be calamity, punishment etc...you can not eliminate "appointed courses" of the sun and the moon for example.

2-) You failed to link "jinn" in any shape or form, you used the planes have wings then they must be angels logic. You need tangible evidence not wishful thinking

Lastly?.

I?m glad to see that you only had to edit your post four times?

When you get to distinguish between "loose" and "lose" then turn your charm on us lol

PS Don't thank or I'll throw up!

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your reply?

Apple Pie wrote

Thanks for positing your unreferenced opinion on the matter.

However, the classic definitions, as I have demonstrated, quite plainly paint the picture of a great calamity, comprised of punishment, evil, locusts, dust, smoke, and fire.

Does not need to be referenced, it was done so earlier.

References from books need page numbers.

Nevemind. Lets use your "definition"

Quote
= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolt; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

Your assertion is not correct since

1-) You are ignoring many other definitions, the definition does not have to be calamity, punishment etc...you can not eliminate "appointed courses" of the sun and the moon for example.
Indeed?.let?s look at appointed courses?

?Running appointed and scheduled courses? is the one that that you have underlined.

So?.what exactly would be running?.?

Let?s look?

97

kai ta omoiwmata twn akridwn omoia ippois htoimasmenois eis polemon kai epi tas kefalas autwn ws stefanoi omoioi crusw kai ta proswpa autwn ws proswpa anqrwpwn

And the likenesses of the locusts like horses having been prepared for war; and on the heads of them as crowns like gold; and the faces of them as the faces of men.

The answer is clear?

The locusts (i.e. Jinn) are in the likeness of horses.

The horses are running.

That is how they are described in both the Book of Revelation and subsequently copied-over by the authors of the Koran.

2-) You failed to link "jinn" in any shape or form, you used the planes have wings then they must be angels logic. You need tangible evidence not wishful thinking

Actually, the evidence is overwhelming.

PS Don't thank or I'll throw up!

Thanks?

unknownuser

Greetings back Apple Pie,

References from books need page numbers.

No one said that this is a formal discussion, if you want that standard you can't expect it by emposing it. You might be able to negotiate it.

?Running appointed and scheduled courses? is the one that that you have underlined.

So?.what exactly would be running?.?

Let?s look?

I have to stop you there, you are not looking at the same thing. The first argument is "running appointed and scheduled courses" and the second one which you chose to investigate is "what is running?".

Firstly, Its an ommission of "appointed and scheduled courses".

Secondly, you need to show from the quran that locusts, horses, dogs whatever run appointed courses.

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your reply?

Apple Pie wrote
References from books need page numbers.

No one said that this is a formal discussion, if you want that standard you can't expect it by emposing it. You might be able to negotiate it.

Serious posters reference their verifiable positions.

Quote
?Running appointed and scheduled courses? is the one that that you have underlined.

So?.what exactly would be running?.?

Let?s look?

I have to stop you there, you are not looking at the same thing.

You did have it underlined?.did you not?..?

The first argument is "running appointed and scheduled courses" and the second one which you chose to investigate is "what is running?".

Really??

Firstly, Its an ommission of "appointed and scheduled courses".

Is it??

Secondly, you need to show from the quran that locusts, horses, dogs whatever run appointed courses.

Sure.

Take a look at sura 100?

Thanks?

unknownuser

Hello Apple Pie,

Serious posters reference their verifiable positions.

To rephrase, that is your standard. Its not a requirement according to house rules. It could be agreed subject to negotiation between parties.

You did have it underlined?.did you not?..?

What I underlined from your definition is "running appointed courses", you addressed "running"

This is what I would appreciate you address...

Really??

Are they the same? If so how?

Is it??

How is "appointed courses" included then?

Take a look at sura 100?

And where is the logical link to the word "running appointed courses" then? Care to elaborate your position more robustly?

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your reply?

Quote
Serious posters reference their verifiable positions.

To rephrase, that is your standard. Its not a requirement according to house rules. It could be agreed subject to negotiation between parties.

Actually, it is expected for a person to reference their position.

This is proper etiquette.

Quote
You did have it underlined?.did you not?..?

What I underlined from your definition is "running appointed courses", you addressed "running"

Thus, by doing this, you are acknowledging Lane?s definition as truth?

Quote
Take a look at sura 100?

And where is the logical link to the word "running appointed courses" then? Care to elaborate your position more robustly?

Sura 100 requires a dedicated thread?.as it details the Jinn to be in the likeness of the Biblical locusts?

Perhaps I will share this with you some day?

Thanks?

unknownuser

Peace Apple Pie,

Thank you for NOT answering my question. roll

If you change your mind here it is, be my guest

Demonstrate the usage of running appointed and scheduled courses in the quran in examples that applies to locusts, bees, cattle or whatever animal you want based on your assertion.

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your repeat reply?

Peace Apple Pie,

Thank you for NOT answering my question.

If you change your mind here it is, be my guest

Demonstrate the usage of running appointed and scheduled courses in the quran in examples that applies to locusts, bees, cattle or whatever animal you want based on your assertion.

I already answered your query twice.

This will be the third time?

Sura 100.

Since you are unwilling (or unable) to perform any footwork whatsoever?.I have taken the liberty of showing the meaning behind the sura title?

Let?s look.

Sura 100?. ??.. ?alAAadiyati?

= ?al?

?al? definition

The definite article. In Arabic it is used to give the meaning of Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, The, and to denote comprehensiveness, that is to say all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades.

Anything which has a quality requiring it to be regarded as sacred, or inviolable; which has some right pertaining to it.

It is also used to indicate something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the writer or reader.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 74 - 75
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 25
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 7

= ?adiyati?

?adiyati? definition

Feminine plural. The horsemen; i.e. the first, of the horsemen, that charge or assault, in a hostile, or predatory, incursion, especially; or horses making a hostile, or predatory, incursion. Panting; running; coursers; companies of warriors; chargers; horses of the warriors; wayfarers who run fast on their journey; swift horses, swift mares, the attacking forces/the horses. It comes from the root ?ada?, which means passed from it, namely, a thing, or an affair, to another, and left it, pass by, overlook, transgress, turn aside. He ran, or rose in his running; said of a man and of a horse; he ran vehemently; denoting a quick pace.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp.1977 - 1981
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 362 - 363
The Koran, Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation, Mohamed Ahmed, p. 73
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 95

Thus?the outward rendering of the title?

= ?al? + ?adiyati? = ?alAAadiyati? = the hostile horses/horsemen/coursers

Let?s look at the definition of the operative word ?courser?, from Merriam Webster?

Main Entry 1course
Pronunciation 'kOrs, 'kors
Function noun
Etymology Middle English, from Old French, from Latin cursus, from currere to run -- more at CAR
1 the act or action of moving in a path from point to point
2 the path over which something moves or extends as a RACECOURSE b (1) the direction of travel of a vehicle (as a ship or airplane) usually measured as a clockwise angle from north; also the projected path of travel (2) a point of the compass c WATERCOURSE d GOLF COURSE
3 a accustomed procedure or normal action <the law taking its course> b a chosen manner of conducting oneself way of acting <our wisest course is to retreat> c (1) progression through a development or period or a series of acts or events (2) LIFE HISTORY, CAREER
4 an ordered process or succession as a a number of lectures or other matter dealing with a subject; also a series of such courses constituting a curriculum <a premed course> b a series of doses or medications administered over a designated period
5 a a part of a meal served at one time b LAYER; especially a continuous level range of brick or masonry throughout a wall c the lowest sail on a square-rigged mast

in due course after a normal passage of time in the expected or allotted time
of course 1 following the ordinary way or procedure 2 as might be expected

Thus?.it is quite clear?from just the title of sura 100, that the authors of the Koran are going to be telling us about the following

The hostile horsemen/horses
Running swiftly
They will be coursers i.e. running a course?.which is defined as ?the act or action of moving in a path from point to point; the path over which something moves or extends; an ordered process or succession; in the expected or allotted time"

So?yes?.the classic definition fits?.

Thanks?

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your repeat reply?This will be the third time?

Greetings to you Apple Pie,

And people believe you just because YOU say so, right? D

Since you are unwilling (or unable) to perform any footwork whatsoever?.I have taken the liberty of showing the meaning behind the sura title?

Let me take your argument to pieces straight away. I can not know how you twist the meaning of the Qur'an! Never in a day in my life I can come up with your fanciful extrapolations. Hence, the footwork is yours...if you don't like it then you should not mind refraining from submitting statements WITHOUT FACTS!

Let?s look.

...and see the Emperor for what he is wearing?

Sura 100?. ??.. ?alAAadiyati?

Go back to the begining, your logic chain has just collapsed. Prove from the Qur'an the relationship of husbanin and AAadiyat, you've jumped from one branch of the tree to another...And, then validate!

Come on show us the link!!!

= ?al?

?al? definition

No amount of definition is gonna save you unless you back your proofs from the one consistent source, al Qur'an.

= ?adiyati?

?adiyati? definition

Feminine plural. The horsemen; i.e. the first, of the horsemen, that charge or assault, in a hostile, or predatory, incursion, especially; or horses making a hostile, or predatory, incursion. Panting; running; coursers; companies of warriors; chargers; horses of the warriors; wayfarers who run fast on their journey; swift horses, swift mares, the attacking forces/the horses. It comes from the root ?ada?, which means passed from it, namely, a thing, or an affair, to another, and left it, pass by, overlook, transgress, turn aside. He ran, or rose in his running; said of a man and of a horse; he ran vehemently; denoting a quick pace.

Lets say you come up with an argument and managed to reconnect your failed logic chain and managed to connect husbanin to aadiyat. Then the question ought to be asked show us where else in the Qur'an we can verify that "Aadiyat" is used in this manner, just to validate your interpretation. Are you going to jump to another word?

Also note I highlighted the logic operator "OR", we'll deal with that shortly...

Thus?the outward rendering of the title?

= ?al? + ?adiyati? = ?alAAadiyati? = the hostile horses/horsemen/coursers

Let?s look at the definition of the operative word ?courser?, from Merriam Webster?

Does GOD speak to you in your dreams that you are choosing the coursers?? What give you this inspiration? Use horsemen and your interpretation is FALSE!

Anyone who is following this thread should evaluate the question Is a NON coursing, horseman eliminated from the definition considering its says "OR" between the definitions?

Thus?.it is quite clear

What is clear is you are clutching at the straws lol

?from just the title of sura 100, that the authors

Every assertion of yours seems false logic, prove that it has authors and not author! You pick up too many false arguments which you can not prove.

of the Koran are going to be telling us about the following

The hostile horsemen/horses
Running swiftly
They will be coursers i.e. running a course?.which is defined as ?the act or action of moving in a path from point to point; the path over which something moves or extends; an ordered process or succession; in the expected or allotted time"

lol So basically the connection between Jinn<>Husbanin<>Aadiyat disintigrated in to oblivion! Nevermind the fact that your dictionary definition did not say it must be all the above to qualify the definition. The dictionary did not say "AND" it said "OR" remember D

So?yes?.the classic definition fits?.

Anybody can make up their OWN MIND whether or not you FAILED in proving your assertions. For my part I am buying NONE of it, it is apparent that your arguments are incoherent and lack sincerity.

Thanks

No problem you're welcome wink

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your reply?

Apple Pie wrote
Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your repeat reply?This will be the third time?

Greetings to you Apple Pie,

And people believe you just because YOU say so, right?

If someone supports my position, then it is because they have taken the time necessary to study the subject matter for themselves?

I do not force anyone into my position.

Quote
Since you are unwilling (or unable) to perform any footwork whatsoever?.I have taken the liberty of showing the meaning behind the sura title?

Let me take your argument to pieces straight away. I can not know how you twist the meaning of the Qur'an!

The operative word is ?un-twist??

Never in a day in my life I can come up with your fanciful extrapolations.

Perhaps this is because you do not take the time to research and study the scriptures of your book of faith? wink

Hence, the footwork is yours...if you don't like it then you should not mind refraining from submitting statements WITHOUT FACTS!

Of course the ?footwork? is mine.

It is clear that you have not contributed anything except unreferenced opinion to this thread?

Quote
Sura 100?. ??.. ?alAAadiyati?

Go back to the begining, your logic chain has just collapsed. Prove from the Qur'an the relationship of husbanin and AAadiyat, you've jumped from one branch of the tree to another...And, then validate!
Come on show us the link!!!

Actually, from your desperate response, it is clear that I have answered your repeat query of showing ANYTHING in the Koran that runs appointed courses?

Don?t be angry with your own book of faith?

= ?al?
Quote
?al? definition

No amount of definition is gonna save you unless you back your proofs from the one consistent source, al Qur'an.

Perhaps you need to read my posts?.for the first time, then?. wink

Quote
= ?adiyati?

?adiyati? definition

Feminine plural. The horsemen; i.e. the first, of the horsemen, that charge or assault, in a hostile, or predatory, incursion, especially; or horses making a hostile, or predatory, incursion. Panting; running; coursers; companies of warriors; chargers; horses of the warriors; wayfarers who run fast on their journey; swift horses, swift mares, the attacking forces/the horses. It comes from the root ?ada?, which means passed from it, namely, a thing, or an affair, to another, and left it, pass by, overlook, transgress, turn aside. He ran, or rose in his running; said of a man and of a horse; he ran vehemently; denoting a quick pace.

Lets say you come up with an argument and managed to reconnect your failed logic chain and managed to connect husbanin to aadiyat. Then the question ought to be asked show us where else in the Qur'an we can verify that "Aadiyat" is used in this manner, just to validate your interpretation. Are you going to jump to another word?

is used in sura 100 only.

Also note I highlighted the logic operator "OR", we'll deal with that shortly...

Of course?

Quote
Thus?the outward rendering of the title?

= ?al? + ?adiyati? = ?alAAadiyati? = the hostile horses/horsemen/coursers

Let?s look at the definition of the operative word ?courser?, from Merriam Webster?

Does GOD speak to you in your dreams that you are choosing the coursers?? What give you this inspiration? Use horsemen and your interpretation is FALSE!
Anyone who is following this thread should evaluate the question Is a NON coursing, horseman eliminated from the definition considering its says "OR" between the definitions?

I use the classic Arabic lexical definitions.

In addition, you have just shown ignorance for ?

Quote
?from just the title of sura 100, that the authors

Every assertion of yours seems false logic, prove that it has authors and not author! You pick up too many false arguments which you can not prove.

The Koran is clear that it copied over the prior Jewish and Christian scriptures?.hence, it involved more than one author?

Quote
of the Koran are going to be telling us about the following

The hostile horsemen/horses
Running swiftly
They will be coursers i.e. running a course?.which is defined as ?the act or action of moving in a path from point to point; the path over which something moves or extends; an ordered process or succession; in the expected or allotted time"

So basically the connection between Jinn<>Husbanin<>Aadiyat disintigrated in to oblivion! Nevermind the fact that your dictionary definition did not say it must be all the above to qualify the definition. The dictionary did not say "AND" it said "OR" remember

Perhaps you could refresh our memory as to the definition of ??

Quote
So?yes?.the classic definition fits?.

Anybody can make up their OWN MIND whether or not you FAILED in proving your assertions. For my part I am buying NONE of it, it is apparent that your arguments are incoherent and lack sincerity.

Everyone is free to decide for themselves, correct.

This should be a straight forward task, as you cannot even put forth a concerted effort into researching your replies?

Thanks?

unknownuser

If someone supports my position, then it is because they have taken the time necessary to study the subject matter for themselves
I do not force anyone into my position.?

Greetings Apple Pie,

You well know I am refering to your playground antiques, so don't be too quick to jump on the intellectual bandwagon.

As for that statement, it is rhetorical.

But lets answer...If you do not force your opinion then why do you make assertions? If you were not doing so you would lay the FACTS and let people arrive at their CONCLUSIONS in their own emerging sense. But no you have to tell them shock

Quote
Since you are unwilling (or unable) to perform any footwork whatsoever?.I have taken the liberty of showing the meaning behind the sura title?

I answered this one before I can't see how you come up with this absurd interpretation, and since I don't carry your preconceived notions its irrational to suggest anyone who investigates will arrive at your conclusions.

Perhaps this is because you do not take the time to research and study the scriptures of your book of faith? wink

I was wondering when you were going to descend into slimey comments...

Of course the ?footwork? is mine.

It is clear that you have not contributed anything except unreferenced opinion to this thread?

Let the readers make that call...In my view I have dissected your arguments. And, I have not expressed "opinion" as far as I can recall except in the way that I don't agree with you because of the logical disconnect.

Actually, from your desperate response, it is clear that I have answered your repeat query of showing ANYTHING in the Koran that runs appointed courses?

I don't see you showing an example. You've jumped on to another word. Hence, I don't believe your answer was satisfactory for me. I was expecting an answer on "husbanin" and you jumped to "aadiyat".

Don?t be angry with your own book of faith?

This rhetorical framework does not work for me. It presupposes you are right and I am wrong. This is not a certainty.

I use the classic Arabic lexical definitions.

In addition, you have just shown ignorance for ?

You are good at coming up with false conclusions. And, your lexical definitions need to pass the criterion. Of course you know this, but you will not pass your conclusions through the Book of GOD, because you know it will fail you.

The Koran is clear that it copied over the prior Jewish and Christian scriptures?.hence, it involved more than one author?

This is one of your other conclusions derived from shady logical reasoning is it?

Perhaps you could refresh our memory as to the definition of ??

Perhaps you can answer a question in earnest, ONLY once? But no you need to be condescending...

Everyone is free to decide for themselves, correct.

At least we can agree on that, that is a relief! But somehow I doubt you mean it.

This should be a straight forward task, as you cannot even put forth a concerted effort into researching your replies?

Now that is your own perception and your own problem. I don't see it that way. You prefer that style whilst I prefer to examine the arguments for integrity.

Now, go back to square one and show us "running appointed courses=husbanin" and validate it through the Qur'an wink

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for sharing your opinion?

Quote
Actually, from your desperate response, it is clear that I have answered your repeat query of showing ANYTHING in the Koran that runs appointed courses?

I don't see you showing an example. You've jumped on to another word. Hence, I don't believe your answer was satisfactory for me. I was expecting an answer on "husbanin" and you jumped to "aadiyat".

Apparently, you have already forgotten about your previous ?challenge??.

Let?s refresh your memory?

Peace Apple Pie,

Thank you for NOT answering my question.

If you change your mind here it is, be my guest

Demonstrate the usage of running appointed and scheduled courses in the quran in examples that applies to locusts, bees, cattle or whatever animal you want based on your assertion.

Hence?.I have shown you the example from sura 100?

The ball is in your court to refute my response?

Thanks..

shuaib

salam folks, i'm finally back. looks like things have been pretty active on this thread.

apple pie,

i'm a bit disappointed that your elders/religion haven't taught you how to apologize after being extremely rude bordering on racist. I take it from your change of tone, however, that you have at least realized your follies.

In my prior post, I mentioned that your argument was flawed for 2 primary reasons.

You employ inaccurate (apocryphal) sources.

You keep referring to QD, when I keep telling you that I do not respect QD as a reliable source.

As far as your references to Lane, I would like to see direct word for word quotes from LANE'S (not from QD)... I find it hard to believe Lane would be so far off from the sources he claims to use.

I didn't realize you were so hung up on page numbers... When I tell someone a definition from Webster's dictionary, I dont think it's necessary to know the page number. You simply LOOK UP THE WORD! Same goes for Arabic lexicons! But in case you were curious,

Jinn, primary meaning is something hidden.. Lisaan-ul-Arab vol 2, p385-392. Absolutely no mention of locusts!

HUSBAAN, in fact the exact verse in question 555 is discussed in Lisaan-ul-Arab in vol 3 p 164... where it is explained that husbaan means along a fixed measured path. NO MENTION OF LOCUSTS!

So again, you not only quote inaccurate sources, you are giving definitions for words completely against the CLASSICAL lexicons.

You use faulty logic in your exegesis.

Again, you are making the mistake of randomly linking words without reason!

Yes, I agree, the dual person being referred to is men and jinn... but JUST because of verse 513 where the 2 are being addressed, you CANNOT just randomly link any word you please to mean jinn! Context IS important, but just because the context is men and jinn, does not mean you randomly link whatever word you please to mean jinn.... why not have the sun and moon mean jinn? Why not have the earth and trees and stars mean jinn? These are also mentioned in the surah.

The school was closed. The weather was warm, and the sun shined bright. So the two boys were thankful as they played soccer.

Is it possible to link the last sentence to the first?? Sure, in a way they are related... but you cannot take soccer or boys and directly relate their linguistic meaning to school or closing! Yet that is what you INSIST on doing. Though men and jinn are being addressed, there is NO reason to believe that 555 means anything more than "the sun and the moon follow fixed orbits." To take the word orbit and relate that to jinn is absurd to say the least.

AND LASTLY, you ought to at LEAST admit that Lane's is not directly saying that jinn are demonic locusts. It is obvious that it is your own interpretation using surah 55... all you did was quote some source that husbaan meant locusts... your sources (even the faulty QD) DO NOT directly list locusts as a meaning of jinn. Just admit that you're deriving this meaning yourself, that's all. There's no need to hide that simple fact.

Lastly?.

I?m glad to see that you only had to edit your post four times?

It should show you how much I re-read everything I write and try to make it as perfect as I can. Perhaps you ought to do the same, and eliminate wise-cracks and rude behavior. It would also save you from making silly mistakes like defining jinn as free from smoke and in the same breath saying jinn are from smoke! OOPS!

unknownuser

Greetings Apple Pie,

Your example does not work because you need to find the same word in arabic or prove the link between two arabic words. The word was "husbanin" since we're into refreshing each others memories. The burden of proof is with the one who is making assertions. YOU!

Meanwhile, keep doing what you are doing, people read your snide comments and figure you out. By making unprovable assertions you are just making yourself look silly.

So, will you answer the question or dodge it as usual?

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

You employ inaccurate (apocryphal) sources.

You keep referring to QD, when I keep telling you that I do not respect QD as a reliable source.

Omar?s Dictionary integrates a plethora of high quality lexicography?.one of which, you even want to ?quote? from, in order to ?support? your position? roll

As far as your references to Lane, I would like to see direct word for word quotes from LANE'S (not from QD)... I find it hard to believe Lane would be so far off from the sources he claims to use.

I already did this before; however, here is an expanded version for your viewing pleasure?

= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolts; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. Small arrows, or short arrows, which are shot from Persian bows; or arrows which a man shoots in the hollow of a reed, or cane; drawing the bow, he discharges twenty of them at once, and they pass by nothing without wounding it, whether it be an armed man or another object; they come forth like rain, and scatter among the people; or small arrows, with slender heads, in the hollow of a reed, or cane, which, when discharged, come forth like a shower of rain, and scatter, and pass by nothing without wounding it; or iron-headed arrows, like large needles, slender, but somewhat long, and without edges (to the heads). It is also said to signify the circumference of a mill-stone. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means he numbered, counted, reckoned, calculated, or computed it; namely, property; to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 564 - 567
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 122 - 123
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 34

= ?bi?

?bi? definition

An inseparable preposition With the help of; During; For; By; On account of; According to; In; From. It also denotes the object of a transitive verb and supports the subject that is termed ?zaidah? (additional). It is also used as a corroborative to confirm and to make more certain.

Reference

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 40 - 41

= ?bi? + ?husbanin? = ?bihusbanin? = on account of the locusts

I didn't realize you were so hung up on page numbers... When I tell someone a definition from Webster's dictionary, I dont think it's necessary to know the page number. You simply LOOK UP THE WORD! Same goes for Arabic lexicons!

Apparently no one has ever called your bluff before? wink

But in case you were curious,

Jinn, primary meaning is something hidden.. Lisaan-ul-Arab vol 2, p385-392. Absolutely no mention of locusts!

HUSBAAN, in fact the exact verse in question 555 is discussed in Lisaan-ul-Arab in vol 3 p 164... where it is explained that husbaan means along a fixed measured path. NO MENTION OF LOCUSTS!

So again, you not only quote inaccurate sources, you are giving definitions for words completely against the CLASSICAL lexicons.

Now?.this is most interesting?

Lisan al-Arab is an Arabic publication.

You already admitted that you don?t know Arabic?.and here you are attempting to quote from it??!

You use faulty logic in your exegesis.

Again, you are making the mistake of randomly linking words without reason!

Yes, I agree, the dual person being referred to is men and jinn... but JUST because of verse 513 where the 2 are being addressed, you CANNOT just randomly link any word you please to mean jinn! Context IS important, but just because the context is men and jinn, does not mean you randomly link whatever word you please to mean jinn....

Perhaps you need to educate yourself regarding the concomitance markers ?wa? and the sequence markers ?fa?, before you draw an uninformed conclusion.

why not have the sun and moon mean jinn? Why not have the earth and trees and stars mean jinn? These are also mentioned in the surah.

The sun and the moon are not the Jinn themselves, however, they are related to the Jinn, hence the juxtaposition of the words?

The school was closed. The weather was warm, and the sun shined bright. So the two boys were thankful as they played soccer.

Is it possible to link the last sentence to the first?? Sure, in a way they are related... but you cannot take soccer or boys and directly relate their linguistic meaning to school or closing! Yet that is what you INSIST on doing. Though men and jinn are being addressed, there is NO reason to believe that 555 means anything more than "the sun and the moon follow fixed orbits." To take the word orbit and relate that to jinn is absurd to say the least.

If ?orbits? of the sun and the moon was the intent of this ayah, then it would have followed the trend previously established in the Koran as seen here

Allahu allathee rafaAAa alssamawati bighayri AAamadin tarawnaha thumma istawa AAala alAAarshi wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman yudabbiru al-amra yufassilu al-ayati laAAallakum biliqa-i rabbikum tooqinoona (13.2)

Alam tara anna Allaha yooliju allayla fee alnnahari wayooliju alnnahara fee allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree ila ajalin musamman waanna Allaha bima taAAmaloona khabeerun (31.29)

Yooliju allayla fee alnnahari wayooliju alnnahara fee allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman thalikumu Allahu rabbukum lahu almulku waallatheena tadAAoona min doonihi ma yamlikoona min qitmeerin (35.13)

Khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru (39.5)

The sun and the moon are described by

= ?yajree?

?yajree? definition

Masculine singular. Pursues its course. It comes from the root ?jara?, which means to flow, run, happen, hasten, be current. Said of water and the like; it ran or passed along quickly; originally said of water; it flowed. Said of a horse and the like; and of a ship; and of the sun and a star. It acts as, or in a similar manner to it; acts in his stead; a commissioned agent; a factor; a deputy because he runs in the affairs of him who appoints him, or acts in his stead; the eel.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 415 - 416
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 96 -97

Hence?.you can see for yourself that 55.5 is describing another phenomenon?.

Thanks?