salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...

Wakas

peace All,

Some regular members here, and often new members, still believe salat=prayer, perhaps not identical to the traditional method but similar to it. This post is directed to them...

The most powerful argument against such a view can be found in 95 & 910-12.
Please note the exact same wording "wa aqamoo al ssalata" / "and uphold/maintain the salat" is used in these ayatin/signs as is used in many places when recommending salat for the believers. Thus how do they interpret these ayatin/signs with their salat=prayer view?

The reason I ask this question is not to antagonise, but to understand, as I have not seen this point addressed by anyone who holds such a view (if I have missed such a post, please reference it).

I would like to "stick my neck out" here and say that no-one will be able to answer this question without severely compromising their salat=prayer view.

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas,

I will take a stab at the question that you posed. I think that the key word is TABA and how it is translated.

Here is what prl mentioned
= Ta-Alif/Waw-Ba = To return; repent; turn one's self in a repentant manner (with ila or without it), turn with mercy (with ala), adapt.

However, according to my reading of the Lisan AlAlrab and Qamoos Muheet, the better way to translate the word is Return/turn to GOD's way.
If you look at the occurences of the root and it's derivatives in the Qur'an you will find that it relates to
1- Return/turn to GOD's way for people
2- GOD helping people return/turn to GOD' s way. As in TAWWAB.

Now for the AYAT that you mentioned
95------fa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun
I translate this way
So If they return/turn themselves to GOD's way (which would be Islam) and Kept upright the prayers -------

This is further explained by the 911
Fa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fa-ikhwanukum feealddeeni wanufassilu al-ayatiliqawmin yaAAlamoona

Which I would translate this way
So if they return/turn to GOD's way and kept upright the prayers and made come the Zakat then they are your brothers in DEEN (religion/obligation which is ISLAM as in 319)

I hope this helps some. Take care and have a great day

hussein

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein,

Thanks for having a stab. I had an inkling you would reply.

I have the following comments

Your translation assumes they were initially following islam, because according to you they are returning to islam. Where in the context does it mention they were following islam previously? It doesn't, they are clearly described as idolaters/transgressors. Thus "return" is out, "turn" is possible.
If someone breaks an agreement/treaty, must they convert/revert to islam in order for them to be forgiven? This is what you are implying and this makes no sense. How do you reconcile such a view with 2256 amongst other ayatin/signs?

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas,
Thanks for your response.

Wakas wrote

Thus "return" is out, "turn" is possible.

I actually put both in my translation. I agree that the Turn to GOD's way is the appropriate use here. This is in agreement with PRL as well as with my reading of Lisan AlARAB and Qamoos Muheet.

If someone breaks an agreement/treaty, must they convert/revert to islam in order for them to be forgiven? This is what you are implying and this makes no sense. How do you reconcile such a view with 2256 amongst other ayatin/signs?

This is one of their options as put in 95, but it is not the only option. Another option comes in 96

96 And if one amongst the Pagans ask thee for safety/protection, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. For they are people without knowledge.

So, you can see that there is no compulsion here. They can convert as in 95, or they can ask for their safety and it will be granted.

Salaam and take care

Hussein

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein,

Whilst I appreciate how someone could come to such an understanding, I have the following problems

96 begins with "wa/and" not "or".

so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure.

Thus, the option now is, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination, thus expelled?

Is there any supporting evidence for this translation (i.e. someone breaks a treaty, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination, thus expelled) from the rest of al quran?
Do you think its just to ask someone who broke a treaty/agreement to convert to islam as one option? What if they repent/turn and uphold the law/bond, is that ok? Clearly this is the most sensible, but not according to your translation.
Would finding an occassion in al quran in which those who broke a treaty were still living along with the believers nullify your translation?
What is your translation of 911-12?

If they (Pagans) turn to God's way (i.e. convert to muslims), and they kept upright the prayers, and they bring the zakat, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.
And if they (muslims OR pagans?) break their oaths after making them, and they denounce the authority of your system; then you may kill the chiefs of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas and thanks for your response,

You said

96 begins with "wa/and" not "or".

I will explain further
95 says So if they---- (Become muslim) then leave them alone. that is one option. then 96 says
96 And if one of the pagans asks you for safety grant it . And that is the other option.

There is no or but the options are understood.

Thus, the option now is, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination, thus expelled?

Expulsion is a wrong understanding. the word is Ma'AMANAHUM which I would translate as PLACE WHERE THEY FEEL SAFE. This place can be their own homes, their own tribe, in the prophets house, next door to the prophet or any where they feel safe in or out of areas of muslim control.

What is your translation of 911-12?

If they (Pagans) turn to God's way (i.e. convert to muslims), and they kept upright the prayers, and they bring the zakat, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.
And if they (muslims OR pagans?) break their oaths after making them, and they denounce the authority of your system; then you may kill the chiefs of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.

I have no problem with the way you translated 911. I would however prefer a different interpretation for 912

912 And if they (pagans turn muslims) break their oaths after making them, and speared in (attacked) your system, then fight (not kill) the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are no oaths, perhaps they will cease.

So, the way I undesrtand the two AYAT is like this;
911 they become muslims then they are brothers
912 and if they turn back to their old ways then fight their leaders. Their oaths are not reliable (because they broke two oaths now, the first mentioned 9-4 and the second was the oath of Islam). Fighting them may help them cease, in attacking the religion of Islam.

There is no killing here and the fighting is only against the leaders of rejection. You leave the rest of the pagans alone.

Salaam and have a good evening

hussein

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein,

Thanks for clarifying.

There is no or but the options are understood.

I feel it would have been more logical with an "or", I guess "and" is acceptable. The problem is that not once are the so-called converts (i.e. believers) explicitly referenced* as such in the relevant ayatin/signs. This to me, is suspect.

*for me, 'brothers' is not an explicit reference to belief.

I would translate as PLACE WHERE THEY FEEL SAFE. This place can be their own homes, their own tribe, in the prophets house, next door to the prophet or any where they feel safe in or out of areas of muslim control.

This seems like a non-punishment! The ayatin are pretty severe, yet the transgressors/pagans get let off with an escort of safety to their own home? No compensation, no re-commitment to the broken treaty/oath, nothing. I assume they get a safety escort because they broke a pledge so there may be some animosity towards them from others, but what happens once they leave their home? Imagining a workable practical example is difficult in my opinion.

912 And if they (pagans turn muslims) break their oaths after making them, and speared in (attacked) your system, then fight (not kill) the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are no oaths, perhaps they will cease.

(because they broke two oaths now, the first mentioned 9-4 and the second was the oath of Islam).

I'm glad you pointed this out.
There is no formal "oath of Islam" mentioned in al quran. There is no ceremonial "oath of islam" mentioned in al quran, which they apparently made . How would this go? What would they say? Only The God knows who is a muslim and who is not. Is there any supporting evidence in al quran for such a formal declaration/oath?

If we take into account your extrapolation of "turn (to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam)" (the underlined part not being in the Arabic)* and focus on the only thing mentioned in context which they pledged to uphold/maintain, it only leaves one option... salat.

*nor is the oath explicitly divulged (if one believes its an "oath of Islam")

My view is that there is a direct opposing comparison between "upholding/maintaining the salat" and "breaking their oaths/pledges". Thus why extrapolate when we have a meaning which fits like a glove

Taken from PRL

= Sad-Lam-Waw = prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnifiy, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached, to contact or to be in contact.
In a horse race when the second horse follows the first one so closely that its head always overlaps the first horse?s body that horse is called AL-MUSSALLI (i.e. the one who follows closely / remains attached).
Central portion of the back, portion from where the tail of an animal comes out, the rump.

Especially if we take into account the core meaning of slw (to go/turn towards).
NB One could substitute this term with similar words such as link/bond/connect, remain attached, continue contact, follow closely or commitment, i.e. a word which implies to go/turn towards (in a close/positive manner).

Also, you never answered my other questions (modified)

Is there any supporting evidence for this translation (i.e. someone breaks a treaty, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination) from the rest of al quran?
Do you think its just to ask someone who broke a treaty/agreement to convert to islam as one option? What if they repent/turn and uphold the law/bond, is that ok? Clearly this is the most sensible, but not according to your translation.

God bless.

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas,

I would like to say that this discussion is very refreshing to me. I thank you for it. Now to business
wakas said

*for me, 'brothers' is not an explicit reference to belief.

I actually did not use the word belief. I used Islam. The reason I used brother in Islam is this Ayah

319 The system (DEEN) before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will)

So brothers in DEEN are brothers in Islam. Islam and belief are not totally synonymous. You can be Muslim and not MU'MIN (believer)

4914 The desert Arabs say, "We believe." (AAMANNA)Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah,' (ASLAMNA)

This seems like a non-punishment! The ayatin are pretty severe, yet the transgressors/pagans get let off with an escort of safety to their own home? No compensation, no re-commitment to the broken treaty/oath, nothing. I assume they get a safety escort because they broke a pledge so there may be some animosity towards them from others, but what happens once they leave their home? Imagining a workable practical example is difficult in my opinion.

Several points here
1- Islam is not a severe religion.
2- When the Pagans asked for Safety/protection then they are actually stopping the fight. They are also accepting the authority of the prophet over them. This is stronger than recommitting to a treatie, because they gave up.
3- They did not necessarily have to have an escort, the word was Ableghhum which means help them reach where they wanted to go. It could be help with transportation, sending a message to some of their family to pick them up or providing an escort.
4- I expect that if the prophet provided them with safety then the muslims will abide by it.

I'm glad you pointed this out.
There is no formal "oath of Islam" mentioned in al quran. There is no ceremonial "oath of islam" mentioned in al quran, which they apparently made . How would this go?

I used the wrong terms. I apologise. However, the way that they communicated that they will follow GOD's way, uphold SALAT and bring about the ZAKAT, was done by some sort of promise or oath to the muslims.

Only The God knows who is a muslim and who is not

I think that GOD knows who is a believer and who is not. Islam is more public. Islam is what people announce whether they are muslim or not (through whatever way they see fit). Again look at 4914 (mentioned above) and

4917 They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.

If we take into account your extrapolation of "turn (to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam)" (the underlined part not being in the Arabic)* and focus on the only thing mentioned in context which they pledged to uphold/maintain, it only leaves one option... salat.

two points
1- You omitted the bringing about of ZAKAT mentioned in 95 and 911. This is a major omission.
2- My understanding is from reading the Lisan Alarab and Qamoos Muheet, and it is consistent with the Qur'an.

Is there any supporting evidence for this translation (i.e. someone breaks a treaty, they either convert or are escorted in safety to their destination) from the rest of al quran?

474 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom

This is an incident that happened before the 9 chapter. However, there is no where in the Quran that stops anyone from becoming Muslim. The generosity or ransom are different but have similar themes to the granting of safety to the one who asks for it.

I did not talk about the escorting. I talked about helping a person get where he needed to go. That can happen through generosity, or through his/her people.

Do you think its just to ask someone who broke a treaty/agreement to convert to islam as one option? What if they repent/turn and uphold the law/bond, is that ok? Clearly this is the most sensible, but not according to your translation

I have several issues
1- You opmitted the ZAKAT. You need to explain it in the light of your undesrstanding.
2- You omitted Brothers in DEEN 911. How do you explain that when the Aya 319 says that the DEEN is ISLAM.
3- Why would you make another similar deal with the people that broke it the first time?

I do want to say that your understanding of Salat is beautiful and enriches my understanding of the traditional salat rather than antagonize it.

Salaam again and have a great day

Hussein

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein,

(the "a" on my keyboard is semi-responsive thus please excuse the missing As in my post)

You constantly refer to "Islam" with a capital 'I', thus I assumed you were referring to the religion-meaning of the word, and this religion-mening implies belief.

they must hve belief if they are upholding the prayers (according to you), BUT there is no reference to them as mumins, nothing.

the primry mening of islm is simply a word meaning compliance/submission/surrender/conformance. it shouldn't really have a religious connotation.

Im very familir with 4914, i love tht sign. It confuses mny a trditionalist.

Several points here
1- Islam is not a severe religion.

it can be, when it is clled for. the passge about cutting of alternate limbs comes to mind. just like this pssge, its severe, mking your trnslation seem out of place. imgine if that pssge said cut their limbs from alternate sides... or help/escort them to safety (even if they do not repent/recommit and to live amongst you as u r implying). is it possible? yes. is it likely? no. interestingly, the alternative option given in 545 is banishment.

2- When the Pagans asked for Safety/protection then they are actually stopping the fight.

i agree.

They are also accepting the authority of the prophet over them.

assumption. they are accepting his authority with respect to helping them to sfety, tht is all. they can still hte him and the system.

This is stronger than recommitting to a treatie, because they gave up.

no its not. if they recommited to the treaty there would be no problem. they r in compliance. same outcome as apprently 'giving up'. there is no tngible/significnt difference. i could say they give up, but still hate the prophet nd his system and try to undermine it.

3- They did not necessarily have to have an escort, the word was Ableghhum which means help them reach where they wanted to go. It could be help with transportation, sending a message to some of their family to pick them up or providing an escort.

ok, thanks for clrifying, but this point doesn't change nything though.

4- I expect that if the prophet provided them with safety then the muslims will abide by it.

thats a big ask. like i said, difficult practical exmple. they disregrd oaths / fight the believers, but get off completely free nd nobody does nothing to them. i am assuming you feel this solution is perfectly feasible practiclly.

I have several issues
1- You opmitted the ZAKAT. You need to explain it in the light of your undesrstanding.

i dont see how this chnges nything hence i never mentioned it. ZKW simply mens positive development. (if u wish to choose one word, i like "betterment")

2- You omitted Brothers in DEEN 911. How do you explain that when the Aya 319 says that the DEEN is ISLAM.

islam simply mens compliance, it is nothing religious, hence 4914. if i implied otherwise, it ws only because i was using it in the way i thought u were. (just for consistncy)

3- Why would you make another similar deal with the people that broke it the first time?

its called "giving someone a second chance". all throughout al qurn if we repent/turn and promise not to do it / amend, we are forgiven & given second chnce. same thing here, nothing special. in fact, according to your trns. the God treats us more harshly thn pagans, i.e. they get away with it, escorted to safety, do not recomit/repent and live amongst you. does this even make sense to you?

4917 They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.

there is no formal/ceremonial public announcement of islam in entire al qurn. you continue to use the capitl 'I', even though in this sign it clearly causes an error. it cannot be "YOUR Islam".

Brother hussein, lets break it down to the crux of the argument

for your argument to hold, you need the one word 'twb/turn/repent' to extrapolate into "turn to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam" in some sort of formal public announcement, like an oath of conversion, even though...

*no part of the pagans are referenced as believers
*this option (i.e. 'you'll be forgiven if you convert') is never given in the rest of al quran
*the oath that they broke is never explicitly divulged as anything other than treaty based
*the passage/condemnation is severe, but fight against them suddenly turns into help them to safety and do nothing to them for nothing in return
*the solution according to you, to work practically is dificult to imgine
*slw has been proven in Classicl Arbic dictionries to hve an alternative mening (i.e. other thn pryer) which fits the context perfectly, and this alterntive mening does not contradict one ayat in over 68 occurrences of slw (i.e. all of them)
*the alternative meaning is perfectly consistent and has none of the above weaknesses

Is there any pre-established belief holding you back from seeing this objectively...

?

I do want to say that your understanding of Salat is beautiful and enriches my understanding of the traditional salat rather than antagonize it.

Thanks. it took me long enough...

God bless.

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas and thanks for your response,

You constantly refer to "Islam" with a capital 'I', thus I assumed you were referring to the religion-meaning of the word, and this religion-mening implies belief.

In Arabic, there is no capital or small letters. From now on I will use AL ISLAM, THE ISLAM when it is mentioned in the relevant Ayat to decrease the confusion.

*no part of the pagans are referenced as believers

This is probably the crux of our disagreement and relates to this

they must hve belief if they are upholding the prayers (according to you), BUT there is no reference to them as mumins, nothing.

Please refer me to where I said that they have to be MUMINS. In fact I believe that you have to be MUSLIM to uphold SALAT, whether MUMIN or not.

2278 And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular AL SALAT, give regular AL ZAKAT, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

Note how the words AL SALAT and AL ZAKAT after the word Mulsimoon.

i dont see how this chnges nything hence i never mentioned it. ZKW simply mens positive development. (if u wish to choose one word, i like "betterment")

Because the word was AL ZAKAT and not just betterment. Also because it was demanded of them to bring it about. Third AL ZAKAT was asked only of the Muslims or the MUMINS.

You suggest that a pagan can bring about AL ZAKAT. Please support this position from the Qur'an.

Quote
2- You omitted Brothers in DEEN 911. How do you explain that when the Aya 319 says that the DEEN is ISLAM.

islam simply mens compliance, it is nothing religious, hence 4914. if i implied otherwise, it ws only because i was using it in the way i thought u were. (just for consistncy)

Except that 319 say THE DEEN at the GOD is THE ISLAM. Therefore one Deen and one Islam and not any compliance, as you suggest.

*the passage/condemnation is severe, but fight against them suddenly turns into help them to safety and do nothing to them for nothing in return

The muslims could have killed them. that is severe enough. The ones that ask safety, stopped the fight.

*the alternative meaning is perfectly consistent and has none of the above weaknesses

The biggest weakness in your argument is that it ignores AL ZAKAT and not any ZAKAT. AL ZAKAT in all the other AYAT is asked of MUSLIMS or MUMINS and never asked of pagans. If you can bring an AYA that asks pagan to bring about AL ZAKAT, you will be more convincing.

Is there any pre-established belief holding you back from seeing this objectively...

I find it very difficult to believe that the prophet himself performed AL SALAT with thousands of Muslims and That the SHIA, SUNNIS and IBADHIS (which were divided early in the history of ISLAM) agree on the Standing, Bowing and prostrating of the SALAT. That all of that was wrong. The disagreements between these groups were deep yet never deep in the SALAT.

How can you explain that they are all wrong?
I told you about my bias. Tell me yours, in order to be fair.

Salaam Wakas and have a good evening

Hussein

TheNabi

Salaam Hussein,

In fact I believe that you have to be MUSLIM to uphold SALAT, whether MUMIN or not.

Please divulge the proof by which you adhere to this understanding. As I have seen it said that salaat is observed by almumin . Clearly it is decreed by Allah for almumin . So I'm wondering how you arrive at your stance.

Joe

TheNabi

Salaam,

Note how the words AL SALAT and AL ZAKAT after the word Mulsimoon.

Almumin are at their core muslimeen. Salaat has clearly been prescribed in alquran for the mumin. I want to know if there is a prescription therein for muslimeen as well.

Joe

hlatif

Thanks Joe for your question,

Please divulge the proof by which you adhere to this understanding. As I have seen it said that salaat is observed by almumin . Clearly it is decreed by Allah for almumin . So I'm wondering how you arrive at your stance.

None of those Ayat are exclusive of Mumins only. Therefore, you are making an assumption. The AYAT talk about Mumins performing Al SALAT. They don't say that if you were Muslim and not Mumin, then you cannot perform AL SALAT.

Almumin are at their core muslimeen. Salaat has clearly been prescribed in alquran for the mumin. I want to know if there is a prescription therein for muslimeen as well.

I am not certain that I uderstand this point. You may be asking that I should present that AL SALAT is asked of the MUSLIMS. If so then here is an example

671 Say "Shall we indeed call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah? - like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling, come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path." Say "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;-
672 "And establish regular prayers (AL SALAT) and to fear Allah for it is to Him that we shall be gathered together."

You can see that ALSALATA came after the Submission and there was no word for IMAN in those two AYAT, and not even nearby.

I hope that I am answering your question. Take care and have a good evening.

Hussein

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein,

all mumineen are also muslimeen BUT all muslimeen are not mumineen. mumin is higher than muslim. first muslim, then become mumin

you are the one saying they are upholding the prayer, thus clerly, one must believe in something to pray to something, thus they are believers. thus they can be referenced as believers/mumineen but this is never done. that is my point.

You suggest that a pagan can bring about AL ZAKAT. Please support this position from the Qur'an.

technically speaking, pagans dont have to do anything. there is no compulsion in the system/obligation, of course, its better for them if they did bring forth the zkw (like it is for anyone).
HOWEVER, IF they are under a treaty with the believers (as in this example) then they are bound by certin things, things likely to be involved in the obligation/system of the believers, thus they can uphold the slw (link) and bring forth zkw (betterment). simple.

The biggest weakness in your argument is that it ignores AL ZAKAT and not any ZAKAT. AL ZAKAT in all the other AYAT is asked of MUSLIMS or MUMINS and never asked of pagans. If you can bring an AYA that asks pagan to bring about AL ZAKAT, you will be more convincing.

How about 7156 or 1955? If not, how about this...

Say "I am no more than a human being like you, who is being inspired that your god is one god, therefore you shall be upright towards Him and ask His forgiveness. And woe to those who set up partners.

"Those who do not bring the zakat, and with regard to the Hereafter, they are disbelievers"

Except that 319 say THE DEEN at the GOD is THE ISLAM. Therefore one Deen and one Islam and not any compliance, as you suggest.

Of course its not any compliance. i could comply to evil laws/rules/dictators etc. It is THE compliance, the ever-present, the compliance/program within us, that is manifest in every single human being on this planet. every single society in this world knows the difference between good & bad. these universal principles are present in every nation. see the beautiful sign of 3030 as an example. for those wishing to develop, they can adhere to specifics, and perhaps attain the status of mumin. changing the trans. to "THE compliance" makes no difference. besides the context often gives it away.

I find it very difficult to believe that the prophet himself performed AL SALAT with thousands of Muslims and That the SHIA, SUNNIS and IBADHIS (which were divided early in the history of ISLAM) agree on the Standing, Bowing and prostrating of the SALAT. That all of that was wrong. The disagreements between these groups were deep yet never deep in the SALAT.

As far as im aware, they do not perform prayer in exactly the sme way. my view of slw has MANY resemblances to the traditional method but is not equal to it. I can clerly see how it became corrupted and formalised. even the traditional so-clled sahih hadith attest to the fact that slw was chnging from the prophet's time

Volume 1, Book 10, Number 507

Narrated Ghailan

Anas said, "I do not find (now-a-days) things as they were (practiced) at the time of the Prophet." Somebody said "The prayer (is as it was.)" Anas said, "Have you not done in the prayer what you have done?

Narrated Az-Zuhri that he visited Anas bin Malik at Damascus and found him weeping and asked him why he was weeping. He replied, "I do not know anything which I used to know during the life-time of Allah's Apostle except this prayer which is being lost (not offered as it should be)."

furthermore, the devestating blow to the traditional method is that the traditional hdith themselves contradict ech other in the method. the only way to gain a coherent unified method is to pick & choose. this is fact. please see
http//members.aol.com/Mamalek2/qbook11.htm

How can you explain that they are all wrong?

like i said, there are many similarities between my understanding and the traditional one.
bro, ~ 1.6 billion christians think Jesus is God or son of God. numbers dont matter one bit. al quran testifies to this. why do u think it says these things? why do u think it says the messenger will declare his people have deserted this quran? the traditionalist view is full of contradictions, not only on salat, but on many things. they truly are lost in mass ignorance and have been conditioned to blindly accept almost anything because loads of things are confusing. the extremists prevailed in formalising something that ws never meant to be strictly formalised. look at the mass splintering after the prophet's death... its crazy. how do you stop mass splintering? formalise it. make it rigid. make it compulsory etc.

if we never knew of traditional hadith, we would never think slw=prayer.

I told you about my bias. Tell me yours, in order to be fair.

thank you for sharing. I understand completely where you are coming from, as i also came from the same place. I also have that bias. I find it hard to accept, just like you, that The God's system became severely corrupted after the prophet's death. Even though numerous examples in al quran tells me its possible and in fact very likely, based on its historic examples, and it repeatedly telling me most are misguided, the prophet declaring his people have deserted this quran, the proof of the pudding by observing tody's Islam etc.. I try to imgine what happened, nd think bout it often. its hard to picture. Do you know why I find it hard to accept? It is because im weak, plain & simple. Ever since my study of al quran began at ~16, there has been many many times in which i have been forced to submit to its teachings. i wouldn't even call it a choice, i was forced to. no-one said it would be easy. al quran didn't say it would be easy. tests usually aren't easy. was it difficult to accept? yes. did i accept it? yes.

I strive to eliminate my bias, thts the best I can do.

Wakas

born_again

Salaam

I wouldn?t want to interrupt your informative discussion but I have some questions to brother Hlatif too.

We know that Prophet Mohammad didn?t allow writing hadiths. For one minute imagine that you don?t know any hadiths. How would you pray? Would you even know that you have to face a qibla when praying?
If the prophet performed the salat where did he get the details? Was he following other books than Quran? Why did he call Allah akbar?
Why is there not any clue for the prayer we perform in the Quran? (No adhan; no sajda, ruku and salat together in a verse; no verse ordaining us to perform sajda and ruku when praying or in some specific times of the day just an ordain to recite the Quran?)
The Quran tells us that those who believe in Allah and do good will enter heaven.

0262 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

0569 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

6409 The day will come when He summons you to the Day of Summoning. That is the Day of Mutual Blaming. Anyone who believes in GOD and leads a righteous life, He will remit his sins, and will admit him into gardens with flowing streams. They abide therein forever. This is the greatest triumph.

Those who believe in Allah will enter heaven. Muslims must pray five / three times a day while christians and jews don?t? Isn?t this unjust?

3335 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

Why isn?t salat included in this ayat?

Thanks and have a nice day...

hlatif

Salaam Wakas,

I thank you for you very well written post and for sharing your thoughts with me. As I think about this discussion, it occurred to me that we may be assuming that each other thinks exactly the same about the key words here islam, iman and belief. We may be mistaken and therefore, this time, I will start with my definition of each of the terms

Islam This is what I wrote in a previous post
One that delivers No Harm, and One that delivers his direction to GOD, and his accpetance to GOD, in peace. Part of this may include the SALAT, the ZAKAT etc

Iman Trust in GOD and feeling safe in GOD

As you may notice there is no belief in my definitions. That is because belief is relative. When a person reaches a certain degree of belief (which varies) they may decide to follow Islam (which is an act and a decision). When the belief reaches a higher degree then they trust and feel safe in GOD (mumins, which is a feeling, yet when tested, it shows strongly).

Now, allow me to point our differences as I see them

I say when the pagans turn (to GOD, peace), uphold the SALAT and The ZAKAT, they become muslim (according to my definition of islam), and therefore their Salat is like their other brothers in the deen.

You say They stay pagans and therefore their SALAT cannot be the same as the muslims' salat.

It could be that we are looking at the same thing from different angles.

I thank you for sharing your thoughts on the traditional prayers. The three muslim groups are closer in their prayer practices than the people at Free minds. There is a core that they accept
1- They pray 3-5 times. The Shia pray three times because they combine the two other prayers. Something that the sunnis do at times.
2- The Ibadhis do not do Qunut, which is non essential.
3- The three do Stand and then bow and then prostrate (the core of traditional SALAT in my view).
4- Some put their hands on their stomach and others not. This is very minor.
5- Other religions have the same patterns, christian kneeling, jewish bowing, buddhist prostrating. This suggests to some that Idolation is rampant. What about that this is somehting close to the core original truth.

I do appreciate this great learning opportunity with you and I hope that you have a wonderful week.

Hussein

hlatif

Salaam brother born again,

Thank you for your question. It is very helpful and very thought provoking.

We know that Prophet Mohammad didn?t allow writing hadiths. For one minute imagine that you don?t know any hadiths. How would you pray? Would you even know that you have to face a qibla when praying?

Actually the Salat did not come from Hadith, it came from what people would call Sunna Mutawatira. This means that thousands of people watched the prophet pray and they prayed with him. Muslims prayed before Bukhari the same way as after him. The salat comes from those thousands that prayed and showed their children and their grandchildren and so on. So, to correct your knowledge SALAT did not come from the books of Hadith. Same with ZAKAT, SAWM and HAJJ.

If the prophet performed the salat where did he get the details? Was he following other books than Quran? Why did he call Allah akbar?

The prophet did perform the Salat

4102 When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their (sujood )prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.
So here is an order for the prophet to lead the SALAT, Standing and Sujood, all in one Ayah. They indicate that this was part of the Salat.

I do not know where the prophet learned his prayer, but if GOD did not like it, he would have told him. GOD did not approve of other things that the prophet did, and the Qur'an talked about them.

Why is there not any clue for the prayer we perform in the Quran? (No adhan; no sajda, ruku and salat together in a verse; no verse ordaining us to perform sajda and ruku when praying or in some specific times of the day just an ordain to recite the Quran?)

The above Aya 4102 puts Sujood in the SALAT clearly.
Aya 2125 puts the RUKOO and SUJOOD together. Then you can connect them together.

If you want to do Salat without Rukoo and Sujood, then go for it. You probably would be advised to do Sujood at some time and Rukoo at another since they were all mentioned in a good light. Putting the Sujood and Rukoo in the Salat makes it easier and more efficient. The Adhan was mentioned in the HAJJ. It is just a way to announce the Salat and makes good logic.

The Quran tells us that those who believe in Allah and do good will enter heaven.

The Salat is part of the good things that you do. It reminds you of your need to be humble in front of GOD, and in front of man. This is a key ingredient of doing good. There are many Ayat that clearly indicate the importance of SALAT. I am certain that you are aware of them.

Each person has to do what he or she honestly believes is needed. In the end, it is GOD that decides who goes to heaven or hell, and definitely, not me.

I hope that I was of help to you. You have a good day

Hussein

Someone

Peace all,

Just an observation to consider, not part of this study.

In some budhist or christian rites, there are people who completely lay on their belly to show their prostration and submissiveness to their god(s). Are they more submissive than the ones only making a "rokou" or "soujoud" in the commonly known fashion?

Since there is no presribed method to do it, can we improve the method to show more... (please fill in the blank)?

--

unknownuser

PEACE HUSSEIN

Please don't take the following comments as criticism of you; it is given as dawah.

I do not know where the prophet learned his prayer, but if GOD did not like it, he would have told him. GOD did not approve of other things that the prophet did, and the Qur'an talked about them.

If you do not know where the Prophet, allegedly, learned the "prayer", then how can you promulgate that it is from Allah/an obligation of His Deen? We, given ayat 733, know that Allah has forbidden/made haram, saying things about Him of which we have no knowledge, to conjecture or give an opinion. If we cannot with certitude determine that, something we doing in His name definitely from Him, then we are told not to follow it--1736.

Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made forbidden/haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

1736 And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.

Main Entry OPINION belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.

Main Entry IMPRESSION a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.

Main Entry POSITIVE not speculative incontestable independent of changing circumstances.

Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.

Main Entry CERTAIN known or proved to be true indisputable, dependable, reliable.

Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.

Actually the Salat did not come from Hadith, it came from what people would call Sunna Mutawatira. This means that thousands of people watched the prophet pray and they prayed with him. Muslims prayed before Bukhari the same way as after him. The salat comes from those thousands that prayed and showed their children and their grandchildren and so on. So, to correct your knowledge SALAT did not come from the books of Hadith. Same with ZAKAT, SAWM and HAJJ.

My question to you is...how do you know thousands of people watched the Prophet do the so-called ritual prayer? You must, in all fairness and truth admit that, you were not a witness to his comments or actions, hence, you are choosing to believe what others have said about what he said or did, but, in fact, you don't know for a certitude...do you?

Main Entry WITNESS one who has personal knowledge of something.

Main Entry PERSONAL done in person without the intervention of another.

Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.

6116 If you were to follow/obey most of those on earth, they would misguide you from Allah's Way. They follow nothing but conjecture. They are only guessing.

1036 Most of them follow nothing but conjecture. Conjecture is of no use whatsoever against the truth. Allah most certainly knows what they are doing.

Given the above ayats and definitions then, you have no knowldege of what the Prophet did or said as you were not a witness, hence, to do the so-called ritual prayer or promote it or accept its being done, is to follow conjecture.

The only truth/knowledge we have about what the Prophet said or did is stated in Al-Quran.

4166 But Allah bears witness to what He has sent down to you. He has sent it down with His knowledge. The angels bear witness as well. And Allah suffices as a Witness.

The Salat is part of the good things that you do.

For the salat/ritual prayer to be a good thing, it must be prescribed by Allah, otherwise, it is wasted effort.

Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-
"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
They are those who deny the Ayats of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.
Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

To follow the Sunnah, Hadiths or both, is giving Allah a partner...Muhammad, and the hadith compilers.

Looking forward to your reply.

hlatif

Salaam priest Bomkei,

Thanks for your thought provoking post.

If you do not know where the Prophet, allegedly, learned the "prayer", then how can you promulgate that it is from Allah/an obligation of His Deen? We, given ayat 733, know that Allah has forbidden/made haram, saying things about Him of which we have no knowledge, to conjecture or give an opinion. If we cannot with certitude determine that, something we doing in His name definitely from Him, then we are told not to follow it--1736.

I have shown that the prophet prayed. There are many Ayat that ask the people who are muslims and mumins to perform SALAT. GOD saw the way the prophet prayed and did not criticise it. This is an approval for me.

My question to you is...how do you know thousands of people watched the Prophet do the so-called ritual prayer? You must, in all fairness and truth admit that, you were not a witness to his comments or actions, hence, you are choosing to believe what others have said about what he said or did, but, in fact, you don't know for a certitude...do you?

Those same questions can apply to you. We never know for certitude. Do you truly and honestly believe that it did not occur? Don't you think that you, like me are following your own suspicions? except that our suspicions are different.

For the salat/ritual prayer to be a good thing, it must be prescribed by Allah, otherwise, it is wasted effort.

Well, I did present an Aya that asked the prophet to perform Salat and it had in it Sujood. I also presented another AYA that puts Rukoo and Sujood together. You ignored them. I am familiar with the people that claim that Sujood is submission. To me they are not convinving.

"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"

This is an Aya for all of us to remember. We all can fall in it. May GOD protect us from it.

Someone said

Since there is no presribed method to do it, can we improve the method to show more... (please fill in the blank)?

Each one will have to arrive at what suits him or her. I know that mocking is not the method that was prescribed. Thank you for your contribution though.

With this, I am going to stop posting on this subject, at least for now. This is mostly because of work, also to help all of us to reflect on what each of us had written. Take care all and have a great week.

Hussein