salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
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Peace upon you hlatif,
The tone of my question seems "mocking" indeed, I apologize for it, no harm was intended, it's only a way to enable some more thinking.
And thank you for not responding in the same "tone" as me. I ask the god to forgive me and to show us the way.
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peace be upon you Hussein,
the primry mening of islm is simply a word meaning compliance/submission/surrender/conformance. it shouldn't really have a religious connotation.
I repeat myself
the primary meaning of islm is complince etc. the word has nothing inherently to do with God. if it had an inherent implication of god then there would be no need to mention "compliance to... insert object here (e.g. The God)" as it does in many places in al quran. i know brother Anwar, who is well knowledgble of Clssicl Arabic has wrote many pages about this point.
how about some clear undisputble examples of common usage...
4816, 2731, 2738
dont get me wrong, its secondary meaning can be islam, as in our system/obligation, fine, but dont mke out Islam/Muslim should have a capital or the God is inherently implied whenever this word is used. thats wrong in my opinion. Names mean nothing. Other prophets did not use Arbic, thus they obviously never used "Islam or Muslim", thus if they used the word (I'll make one up) "phareps" you think it would be right to attach a special capital to this word and associate the God with its usge and make out its somehow special. the word by itself is not special, the meaning is what is important.
same with iman, it just means faith/belief/conviction etc., nothing inherently to do with God. see the following common usage 213, 2285, 776, 1051, 1083, 1090
Now, allow me to point our differences as I see them
I say when the pagans turn (to GOD, peace), uphold the SALAT and The ZAKAT, they become muslim (according to my definition of islam), and therefore their Salat is like their other brothers in the deen.
You say They stay pagans and therefore their SALAT cannot be the same as the muslims' salat.
No, I do not say that, al quran says that. it treats them as if they are still pagans, on the other hand, you are the one who extrapolates "twb/turn/repent" into "turn to God's way, i.e. convert to Islam in a public/formal declaration" and have belief like believers and make prayer like we do so you may be forgiven, if not, take the other option of we will help you to safety with no apology, no re-commitment, no compensation, nothing in return and you can live amongst us quite happily whilst no one can harm you in any way.
I guess you feel that is the most likely trans. Fair enough.
Our discussion was interesting, and if I may say so, you showed excellent manner/character, an example of how it should be done. Thanks for that.
Bro, the way i see it, at some point in all our lives, we all come to a cross-roads, when we get to the decision-point, we have to make the choice, which direction to take, will we return on the path already trodden simply because we are familiar with it, or will we have the strength/conviction to let our inner compass guide us to the truth? all i can say is follow your heart, just like i do. the heart does not lie, surely, it is the best guide since the God has told us that He has set within us all an inner compass of truth.
at the end of the day, I disagree with your opinion but i accept your right to have such an opinion, and i still regard you as a brother.
God bless.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you Hlatif
4102 When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their (sujood )prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.
Just a few points considering your and traditional translation of the verse for you to ponder on.
- This is the ONLY verse that has ?sujood? and ?salat? in it. But where?s the rukou? Isn?t it an integral part of the salat, too?
- There?s no command to RECITE REVELATIONS? They are just going to perform sujood then what?
- Why are people who will perform sujoud take their guns with them? The ayat suggests that they can put away their guns because of the inconvenience of rain (injuries from rain literally isnt it?). This means that they can not put away their guns in other circumstances. I don?t see how anybody can perform sujoud and rukou with a gun in his hand and besides logically, the ones who must carry the gun should be in the front of the praying group so they can protect them but in the ayat we can see that those who will perform prayer goes to front and takes their gun with them. Are you sure they are praying?
Take care and have a nice day...
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peace be upon you Hussein, all,
Further evidence of my maqam/position came to mind...
I feel you extrapolated 'twb' to 'convert', and in this specific example its used for Pagans converting to muslims/believers/adherents of Islam (or whatever you feel they converted to). I believe we tried the logic via context route, but there is another route we didn't venture down to find out if this is an extrapolation or not, and that route is how al quran itself uses the root twb.
The root twb is used about 90 times in al quran, thus my question is
how many occurrences out of the 90 are clearly used in the manner you suggested?
Wakas
References
Concordance of Quran
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=extrapolate -
Salaam Wakas,
how many occurrences out of the 90 are clearly used in the manner you suggested?
It is actually not a matter of number. All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD. Some of them have GOD mentioned, others are followed by Iman and so forth.
This one does not have all the other associations, yet it clearly talks about the followers of the prophet.
11112 Therefore stand firm (in the straight Path) as thou art commanded,- thou and those who with thee turn (Taba maaaka); and transgress not (from the Path) for He seeth well all that ye do.
Salaam and good bye.
Hussein
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Salaam Hussein,
All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD.
Does God turn/convert to the people "taba Allah"? If what you say above is true then explain the occurances where taba is used for Allah alone. Is it turn to God or God turns toward, or maybe if you so choose, God converts?
Joe
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peace be upon you Hussein,
All the TAB that were used in the Qur'an relate to Turn to GOD, and NONE was used to other than GOD.
The word simply means turn/repent. The word itself has no inherent association with The God, that is why al quran often mentions The God in the context. Just like the words islam/muslim/iman have no inherent association with The God. The word just means turn/repent, and like in English, neither of those words has an inherent association with The God.
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=repent
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=turne.g. are you implying, for example, a thief must convert in order to be forgiven?
I can find many examples where it cannot mean "convert". This isn't even one of its dictionary meanings. In fact, even the dictionary meanings do not state the word has an inherent association with The God.
Can you find equivalent examples, where it is clearly used in the manner you suggested?
As brother Joe pointed out, I do not regard 11112 as an example.
Wakas
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Salaam Joe and Wakas,
This will be my last post on Free-minds. However, i am happy to answer your questions at this point and with this I am saying good bye to all of you.
Joe said
I'm hoping that's not your evidence for a conversion theme? It clearly talks about the followers of the rasool and the rasool himself mind you "as also those who turn with thee" .
They all turned to GOD and they all converted to Islam, including the prophet. When you turn to GOD, you are a muslim in many ways because you are also submitting to GOD.
Joe said
Does God turn/convert to the people "taba Allah"? If what you say above is true then explain the occurances where taba is used for Allah alone. Is it turn to God or God turns toward, or maybe if you so choose, God converts?
When GOD uses the TABA, it is used as TABA ala so and so and it means- according to Lisan Alarab- that GOD is helping people turn to Him.
Brother Wakas, for fairness sake, why don't you present one
incident in the Qur'an where T-W-B root was mentioned and the one to turn to was other than GOD. If you did in clear manner then you will prove your case.Salaam all. I have learnt a lot from all of the people here. I will leave you all in peace.
Hussein
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YEAH DON'T GO BROTHER HUSSEIN. AT LEAST POST AT THE OTHER THREADS PLEASE RECONSIDER ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( (
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Salaam Hussein,
When GOD uses the TABA, it is used as TABA ala so and so and it means- according to Lisan Alarab- that GOD is helping people turn to Him.
I do not understand the point of repeating what is already there. The preposition ala/on/to is there and thus we have "taba Allahu AAala alnnabiyyi" - Allah turns to the informer - . Also taba is used in this very ayat 2 times mind you, once with the preposition and once without it.
Joe
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Salaams All,
Hussein, why are you leaving? Maybe you won't even look at the posts now to answer this question. (
Joe, you wrote
The preposition ala/on/to is there and thus we have "taba Allahu AAala alnnabiyyi" - Allah turns to the informer - . Also taba is used in this very ayat 2 times mind you, once with the preposition and once without it.'Taba' is used twice in the Ayah and twice it came with the preposition '3alaa'.
p.s. I haven't followed the thread but just thought now to take a look at the last posts!
Taj
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peace be upon you Hussein,
Sorry to hear you're leaving. And if that was your last post, then I see little point in responding if there will be no response. In any case...
Your view that when people twb, its always to The God is questionable. There is no inherent asociation of the word with God, if there was, why mention God in the context. Also, that means according to you every thief must turn to God (i.e. convert?), in order to be forgiven . I assume therefore, you feel there can there be no disbelieving thieves? There is no compulsion in the system/obligation, no forced conversions etc. You are basically saying the thieves, or those who wage war against the God and his messenger they are threatened with punishments, severe ones in 533-34, but if they convert, then they are forgiven. I personlly have not encountered this notion in the entire reading, in fact I think its contradictory to it .
For sake of argument, lets say every time twb is used, its always to The God (which I agree is the majority usage, simply because when people use it, it means repent, and most of the time its repenting to The God), even if that is the case, my point still stands
According to you, there is a clear conversion (pagans to muslims etc.) in 95, 911. My question is, quite simply, out of the other 90 root occurrences, please give us examples where it is also used to signify a clear conversion like you are suggesting for 95, 911. If you present none, I will assume you feel 11112 is the best (&only?) example out of the 90.
p.s. I haven't followed the thread but just thought now to take a look at the last posts!
Perhaps you can share your thoughts upon the thread once you have looked at it, especially if you feel it applies to you.
God bless.
Wakas
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Taken from Concordance of Quran
Ta-Waw-Ba
taba vb. (I) ~ repent, to be penitent, to do penance; (with prep. ala) to turn towrds someone (in forgiveness); (with prep. ila) to turn towrds someone (in penance). (n. vb.) repentnce, penitance. (pcple. act.) one who repents, penitent.
There is no such preposition in 95, 911. Thus "to" is not implied.
There are examples of specific usage of twb ila/to God , thus al quran could have easily mentioned it in 95, 911, instead of making us assume thats what was meant, if that was what was meant.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum all,
Ayat 11113 (pm translation) mentions about those who repented with prophet Muhammad
11113 So stand straight as you were commanded and those who repented with you and do not transgress. He is watcher over what you do.
This repentance is the repentance of someone who is already a believer (mumin) and cannot mean conversion to Islam. There are other ayat in Al-Quran that talk about this kind of repentance
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you.
9114 Those who repent, those who serve, those who thank, those who wander in devotion, those who kneel, those who prostrate, those who order good and deter from evil, and those who keep the boundaries of God. And give good news to the believers.
1332 And as such, We have sent you to a nation as other nations that have come before, so that you may recite for them that which has been inspired to you; while they are still rejecting the Almighty. Say "He is my Lord, there is no god but He, in Him I place my trust and to Him is my repentance."
2432 And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
429 And anything you dispute in, then its judgment shall be with God. Such is God my Lord. In Him I put my trust, and to Him I repent.
669 O you who believe, you shall repent to God a sincere repentance.The above ayat are proof that someone who is already a believer including a prophet can repent to God. Prophet Muhammad and his companion believers were all human and can make a mistake and the repentance is prescribed by Allah for such an occasion
418 Repentance is only for those who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
So a believer can make a mistake and then repent soon after and Allah forgives. Thus it is clear that the repentance mentioned in 11113 cannot mean conversion to Islam as brother Hlatif implies.
There is clearly no compulsion in religion
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower
After careful consideration of all the above and the fact that ayat 92 to 913 are about the pagans who broke the treaty and their oath, the most likely meaning of 96 would be that if these pagans repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold their bond (the treaty) again thereby contributing towards betterment, then they are to be left alone. This would be a very good example of how al-salat does not meen the timed prayer of the mumin and al-zakat does not mean giving charity.
A DIFFERENT ANGLE
However, brother Wakas, I would like to add another angle to this discussion and I would like to have your opinion on this. Until ayat 94 the pagans have not broken their treaty. 94 mentions about repenting and IMO this is repenting from setting up partners with Allah
94 And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people, on this, the peak day of the Pilgrimage "That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set up partners." If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.
The repenting of pagans as above clearly means their repentance from setting up partners because of the immediately preceding words. When one repents from setting up partners it is obvious that one starts accepting one God thereby becoming a muslim. So the above repentance "could" mean conversion to Al-Islam.
Now is it possible that in ayat 96 Allah is talking about the same repentance?, that is, the repentance from setting up partners and not the repentance from breaking the treaty. If that is so then 96 could have the alternative meaning of the pagans repenting from setting up partners, thereby becoming muslims, and then upholding salat and bringing forth zakat, thereby now becoming believers. This meaning would then be reinforced by 912 which talks about the same repentance and upholding salat and bringing forth zakat making them brothers in deen. Brothers in deen at least means being muslim as Allah has chosen Al-Islam as deen.
This would not contradict with 2256 because the pagans are not being forced to become muslims. They have an alternative option of surrendering and giving up and seeking the protection of the believers as per 97. IMO the protection is CONDITIONAL and the pagans sanctuary is either within the community of the believers or in the community of the pagans as long as they can easily hear the Word of Allah
97 And if any of those who have set up partners seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctuary. This is because they are a people who do not know
This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies because it is conditional on them being able to hear the Words of Allah. Also IMO that would automatically imply having another treaty with them after they surrendered and the protection was given to them. So the pagans have 2 options after breaking their treaty they can either repent and become believers or they can give up and seek protection of the believers which will be given to them as long as they can hear the Words of Allah. They do not have the compulsion of accepting the Words, but they will have to make another treaty with the believers.
2 MORE POINTS
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If we translate 96 meaning that if the pagans repent from breaking the treaty and uphold the bond (the treaty) thereby contributing to the betterment then leave them alone, then this meaning would make 97 redundant. If they are upholding the treaty again then obviously they are protected by the believers. Why give them an option of seeking protection and going back to their sanctuary again in 97 ?
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In the beginning of chapter 9 when Allah is talking about the pagans who made a treaty with the believers, He does not call them brothers in deen with the believers. However in 912 according to brother Wakas's interpretation the pagans have not converted to muslims and all they did was repent from breaking the treaty and uphold it again, so what is different this time that Allah calls them brothers in deen for doing that?
Peace,
Tanveer
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peace Br. Tanveer, all,
Until ayat 94 the pagans have not broken their treaty.
Strictly speaking yes, but this is clearly implied. The very first word of the chapter tees up the subsequent signs in this direction
baratun = acquittal/absolve
Furthermore, in 94 it states
PM Except (illa) for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set-up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you...
Thus directly implying the reference of the prior sign(s) is those who reduced from the treaty or planned to attack you.
The repenting of pagans as above clearly means their repentance from setting up partners because of the immediately preceding words.
That in no way can be called clear. Why cant it simply be about making a public announcement that we are innocent from them, i.e. they broke the treaty, they are to blame.
If that is so then 96 could have the alternative meaning of the pagans repenting from setting up partners, thereby becoming muslims, and then upholding salat and bringing forth zakat, thereby now becoming believers.
For that opinion to hold, you are forced to insert a lot of interpretation into the signs. Please remember they are not referenced as anything other than transgressors/idolaters etc.
This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies
I did not imply that. That, as far as I understood was Br. Hussein's position, thus I was pointing out its absurdity. That was not my own opinion.
they can either repent and become believers
Just like when the thief commits a crime, they repent, nothing to do with conversion. Same as this case. When al quran wishes to point out its twb/repentance to The God, the word "ila" is used, there is no "ila" here, nor in the thief example.
2 MORE POINTS
1 - why do you think 95 has the clause "if"? The subsequent sign allows for the situation when not everyone accepts the condition.
2 - the next sign, 912 proves they are not brothers in terms of Muslims or believers or in terms of conversion because it states "And if they break their oaths after making them..." Its clear the signs have been referencing "they" with trangressors/idolaters throughout, especially the previous signs prior to 911. If they have converted, why are they still being held to account for their oaths? What is going on? What oaths? Is there a word in the previous sign, 911, that can be connected with a oath/bond/link? Yes! That word is slw.
In fact, based on this new observation, I think the above signs conclusively prove that they are not converts! Beyond reasonable doubt!
Its further reinforced with "uphold the slw... brothers in deen/obligation/system" and then says "break their oaths... denounce the authority of your deen/obligation/system".
Anyone else agree with this observation?
Wakas
As a side note, I dislike capitalising islam into Islam, as if its a magical name/noun/title. Its primary signification is a mindset, i.e. a description.
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Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,
Thank you for your explanations, and answers to my questions and points. I think you have conclusively proved your position.
This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies
I did not imply that. That, as far as I understood was Br. Hussein's position, thus I was pointing out its absurdity. That was not my own opinion.
I apologize for the above. It was a misunderstanding on my part.
As a side note, I dislike capitalising islam into Islam, as if its a magical name/noun/title. Its primary signification is a mindset, i.e. a description.
By Al-Islam I meant The Islam which is submission or surrender to Allah and not just a regular islam meaning submission or surrender which could be to anyone. Maybe I should write islam lillah. That is why I capitalized it to distinguish islam lillah from islam.
Regards,
Tanveer
