THE THREAD - THE VERSES - THE UNDERSTADINGS - THE CONCLUSION

hlatif

Salaam Natu and thanks for your response,

However, using this translation leaves it ambiguous, as to which ?general location? God is talking about, it could be anywhere, and not necessarily in ?the house?, because if it was, then the two wouldn?t necessarily be considered separately

Ibrahim stood in the house and in the area outside of it and surrounding it. All those places can be places for someone to take as Place of Salat. Today, muslims pray outside the house, however, they also can pray inside the house. Only a few do because of the small space, but it has never been forbidden to pray inside.

The point about BAIT

You said

Technically, wherever 'the house' is, we cannot all return to it, becuase we don't all come from the same house

Actually the word Mathab means return. This could be the return to your origin, or the return to place that you visited before. For example you can return to the same beach that you viisted many times. This would be my understanding, that people visit and revisit this house.

My issues with SYSTEM

1- The word that Qur'an used for what you talked about are mainly two Islam and DEEN. Therefore the use of BAIT to mean system is suspect, in my eyes.
2- You still have to connect this understanding with the actual meaning of the word BAIT
iam attaching prl's meaning
= Ba-Ya-Ta =

by/in/at night (excluding sleep), entered upon or passed the night
tent, house, home
Thinking about something and its end result
Concealed or conceived something in the mind
A structure of clay or any structure signifying a habitation, an abode or dwelling.
Buildings, uninhabited houses, shops, ruins, bazaars, places where the entering is allowed by the owners.
Ark of Noah, Mosques, places of worship, Kaabeh or Jerusalem
A grave
Household or family
Nobility
Sudden attack in the night or a surprise attack in the night
Remaining through the night (e.g. bread or water that stays out and becomes stale)

As you can see the meanings have a general theme and System has to meet it to be feasible.

3- The business of return to the system. People were not in the system to return to it. And, if you understand return as people who come and go and come and go then that would not be feasible since people are not supposed to come in the system and leave it and come back and leave it again.

4- You do not clean GOD's system. The system is clean. It is the people who need cleaning. Ibrahim cleaned the BAIT and not the people

5- Why do you need groups of people to come to GOD's system. GOD's sytem is for all people and not groups of people.

Then the point about submision

Lets look at the act of submitting ? it can be seen as giving God what he asks for

This is my problem with this argument You took a disputed arabic word Sujood and said it means Submission as in submitting to GOD's will. Then, you are stretching it further to make it mean Deliver. While deliver can be ok for the English submission, it is NOT OK for the ARABIC Sujood

Salaam Natu and have a great day

Hussein

Natu

Peace bro,

It appears that both my view and your view have some level of inconsistency, and I must admit that my side of things currently appears to have more weakness than that on your side. My suggestion is that we make clear comparison between the following specific bits of each translation of the verse, the translation you have kindly provided and that which Aidid Safar did

No ritual translation
And when We made the system as providence for mankind and harmony ? and you shall take from the position of Abraham who was committed. And We gave instructions to Abraham and Ishmael that ? they should cleanse My system for groups of people ? and those who are devoted ? and those who humbly submit

Ritual Supporting Translation
And WE (GOD) made the house a place of return to the people and Safety. And take the place of standing of Abraham as a place of SALAT. And WE (GOD) asked of Abraham and ISMAEL that cleanse my house to the ones that circle around, the ones that stay around and the ones that bow and prostrate (or voluntarily show signs of submission.)

OBJECTIVE A

We need to compare ?a place of return to the people? with ?as providence for mankind?. The Arabic in question is , and the PM translation shows this as ?a model for the people?

OBJECTIVE B

We need to compare ?take the place of standing? with ?you shall take from the position?. The Arabic in question is . One thing I do know is that means ?from?, so the accurate translation of ? ? is ?and take from? and this appears in Aidid?s translation, but not the other, so in this respect Aidid?s translation is more accurate. This is not an issue, I presume you agree. The crucial point of discussion is the definition of ?? . We need to consider the meaning of this word.

OBJECTIVE C

We need to consider the definition of ?? This has been translated as ?the ones that circle around? and ?for groups of people?

OBJECTIVE D

We need to consider the definition of ?? This has been translated as ?the ones that stay around? and ?and those who are devoted?

(By the way I hope you agree with the way I have structured this discussion, first we will discuss objective A, and then move onto the others sequentially.)

OBJECTIVE A

Aidid Safar defines ?providence? as ?an external force that plans and provides the guidelines for our lives and the things that happens to us. It reciprocates positively or negatively according to a man's thoughts and actions.?. I do not understand how this has been translated as ?place of return? I would be very grateful if you please clarify this for us all. I do not say that this is the correct translation, but possibly from other verses we could work out the correct definition, God wiling. I strongly urge other brothers and sisters to join in and contribute what they can; it would be helpful for both sides of the debate. If it is found that lexicons etc. support both definitions, then we shall move onto OBJECTIVE B with the conclusion that the definition of ? ? can supports either side, and so the end result of OBJECTIVE A is inconclusive, God Wiling, we shall see support for either view in other parts of the verse. Before we go on to consider the definitions of ?Bayt? and ?Salaat?, we shall build the foundation of the verse to put these words in. If there are any flaws in my approach please send a PM and I will try to make adjustments.

You do not clean GOD's system. The system is clean. It is the people who need cleaning. Ibrahim cleaned the BAIT and not the people

In this bit over the verse God is actually referring to THE system as a pose to MY system which he said earlier in the verse. From the context of the verse it is clear that the system is not ?God?s system as such, rather THE system (which can be understood here to mean the general system of affairs and practice which is present at the time of Abraham and Ismael). As a result, THE system can be cleansed, because, as does anti-virus equipment, the false files are removed leaving the correct files. But we shall discuss this later, for now we need to focus on OBJECTIVE A.

Take Care.

sabo

Peace Natu,

I hope you won't be pissed off if I just push my nose asking a question, that might look first as irrelevant to the structure of your thread, however I see it can move us a bit to a definition of the word "bayt"

Do you think the word "praising" (arabic tasbih) is something to be said or is it also a metaphoric word? see for example 20130

Best regards,
sabo

hlatif

Salaam Natu,

I hope that you are doing well. I agree with the objectives that you have set for the debate and to working first on each of the concepts.

MATHABA you asked me of where I got the Place of return. I am therefore attaching PRL's definition of it

= Th!aa-Waw-Ba = to return, turn back to, to restore/recover, to repent, to collect/gather.
to call/summon (repeatedly), rise (dust), to flow, become abundant.
something returned (recompence, reward, compensation), to repay.
a thing which veils/covers/protects, a distinct body or company of people.
mathabatan - place of return, place to which a visit entitles one to thawab/reward, assembly/congregation for people who were dispersed/separated previously, place of alighting, abode, house, tent.
raiments, garments, morals, behaviour, heart, dependents, followers, robes, clothes, pure/good hearted, of good character.

mathabah n.f. - 2125,
mathubah n.f. - 2103, 560,
thawab n.m. - 3145, 3148, 3195, 4134, 1831, 1844, 1846, 1976, 2880,
thiyab n.m. (pl. of thawb) - 115, 1831, 2219, 2458, 2460, 717, 744, 7621,
thawwaba vb. (II) - 8336,
athaba vb. (IV) - 3153, 585, 4818.

So, this is where I got it. I am unable to support Aidid's translation of Mathaba as providence in this light. Can you elaborate on how you connect this meaning with Aidid's?

Now please allow me to respond to another point

In this bit over the verse God is actually referring to THE system as a pose to MY system which he said earlier in the verse.

Actually the opposite is true. The AYA start with ALBAIT= THE House or SYSTEM(as you like to interpret it) and the cleansing part is for BAITI= MY House or SYSTEM (as you prefer to translate)

So the cleaning is not for the SYSTEM, the cleaning is For GOD's system, according to the Ayah and according to AIDID's understanding.

Take care Natu. I thank you for this very helpful and open minded discussion, and have a great day

Hussein

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Here is my position on 2125 to share with you all.

(2125) And when We made the House (as) a strength to the people, and (a) safety/security, and they take from Abraham's position (spiritual level), one who processed , and We recommended to Abraham and Ishmael "That cleanse My House for the circlers/walkers around , and the devoting/dedicating , and the bowing prostrators(those who humbly hear and obey).

I find it difficult to explain salaat without mentioning the meaning of the other words.

Salaat is the PROCESS of enlightenment, where we sit still (unless in danger then walking or riding/moving) and go within (meditate) in order to read the universe(al kitaab). We go within (meditate) so we can "talk to the God" and get the answers to our problems.

The "house" is only a metaphor to imply the security and protection of the God's system(deen) as a house in this world protects us from the elements of nature. This reading confirms that which came before it and the ancient Kemetans(egypt) used the symbolism of wrapping the mummy to do the same thing, it implied that one was protected from outside conditionings and relied on the God within.

The God's house is WITHIN, and we must cleanse the house, that is, we must purify the wrong thoughts and beliefs and practices within our psyche so that those who "walk around" these ideas, or those who humbly hear and obey will not be constantly thrown in the wrong direction by so many different views that carry no proof with them.

SO this thread was built on an excellent premise and I intend to help bring a unified understanding.

unknownuser

Salaams idolfree,

you said

The "house" is only a metaphor to imply the security and protection of the God's system(deen) as a house in this world protects us from the elements of nature. This reading confirms that which came before it and the ancient Kemetans(egypt) used the symbolism of wrapping the mummy to do the same thing, it implied that one was protected from outside conditionings and relied on the God within.

The God's house is WITHIN, and we must cleanse the house, that is, we must purify the wrong thoughts and beliefs and practices within our psyche so that those who "walk around" these ideas, or those who humbly hear and obey will not be constantly thrown in the wrong direction by so many different views that carry no proof with them.

Certainly makes sense.

Salaams.

born_again

Salaam

The "house" is only a metaphor to imply the security and protection of the God's system(deen) as a house in this world protects us from the elements of nature. This reading confirms that which came before it and the ancient Kemetans(egypt) used the symbolism of wrapping the mummy to do the same thing, it implied that one was protected from outside conditionings and relied on the God within.

I agree with idolfree's superb explanation. I believe that "Bait" is metaphorical and it protects us from hell-fire, if we enter it we are safe.

My position on the verse is the same as Aidid's.

?And when We made the system as providence for mankind and harmony ? and you shall take from the position of Abraham who was committed. And We gave instructions to Abraham and Ishmael that ? they should cleanse My system for groups of people ? and those who are devoted ? and those who humbly submit?

Peace...

Nural_Amin

Peace,

The verse where it says take from the footprints or where Abraham was is not a correct translation because the word translated as footprints can also be translated as status and it is used also with GOD and we can't look for God's footprints, status or rank seems like a more logical meaning after cross-refrencing.

I picked this up from Aidid Safar's book, maybe someone can elaborate or correct me. After reading a few chapters, it makes a lot more sense to me, it's clearer and corruption is clearly pointed out. I think someone should quote from his book because there are good examples of where cross refrencing clarifies the meaning of words and also shows how Great this Book is.

Who is this Aidid Safar? Is he a member of this site? He should contribute, his work is revolutionary and also makes a lot of sense!

Nural

hlatif

Salaam Nural,

MAQAM can mean the Standing. This is a derivation of the meaning where Ibrahim stood. However, this is what Aidid had written on this section

and you shall take from the position of Abraham who was committed.

here are the problems
1- He used Shall take for the word ITTAKHITHOO, when this word is An order form of the verb. Shall take can be understood as an order, but it also can be understood as a future tense. I prefer TAKE.
2- He translated MUSALLA as WAS committed. I have never seen it mean that.
3- The MUSALLA was not Ibrahim as Aidid had written, it was the MAQAM
4- What do you take from the standing of Ibrahim.

Take care and have a good evening

Hussein

born_again

Salaam hlatif

What do you think about brother Wakas's translation of the verse

And We have made The House/Establishment1 a place of return/reward2 for/to people3 and a safety/security4. And they took5 from the stance/position6 of Abraham his commitment/following closely/attachment7. And We entrusted/recommended to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify/cleanse My House/Establishment1 for those who go about/amongst8, those who are devoted9, and for those who incline/humble10 and acknowledge11.

1 - bayt, root Ba-Ya-Ta
2 - mathabatan, root Th!aa-Waw-Ba
3 - nnasi = people/mankind = general, i.e. not a specific group of people.
4 - amnan, root Alif-Miim-Nuun, also see 483, 52, 681, 682, 2455.
5 - wa ittakhithoo = (participle. 3rd person. masculine. plural. imperative. VIII) = it can be translated as 'and they took' (as it seems to be in the past tense) OR 'and take' (plural).
6, 7 - They took from Abraham his stance/position (maqam, root Qaf-Waw-Miim, see 1779, 1973, 2658, 3313, 37164, 4426), his commitment (musallan, root Sad-Lam-Waw), which makes sense, as he was a role-model/leader (imam), see previous sign/verse.
8 - liltta-ifeena, root Tay-Waw-Fa
9 - AAakifeena, root Ayn-Kaf-Fa
10 - rrukkaAAi, root Ra-Kaf-Ayn
11 - ssujoodi, root Siin-Jiim-Dal

Peace...

hlatif

Salaam Born again,

Thank you for bringing to my attention Wakas' understanding of the AYAH. It is much more palatable than that of Aidid. However, I still have some issues with it.

And they took5 from the stance/position6 of Abraham his commitment/following closely/attachment7

I have some issues with this
1- WAKAS interpreted Musalla as HIS committments. I disagree. MUSALLA suggests that the Act of SALAT was/is/will be perfromed on the word before it (MAQAM). In this, the word MAQAM plays a totally passive role.
2- I need to clarify the word MAQAM again. The concrete meaning is Place of Standing. The abstract meaning will have to abide by the concrete meaning. So, the abstract meaning will be position/stance/rank as in how he is viewed (again being passive) rather than his Stance on something. You can look them up in the Qur'an
397, 3313, 37164, 4451, 5546, 7940, 1779, 1973, 2739, 5107, 1071, 1414.
3- He starts with they took whereas he said this

5 - wa ittakhithoo = (participle. 3rd person. masculine. plural. imperative. VIII) = it can be translated as 'and they took' (as it seems to be in the past tense) OR 'and take' (plural).

I do prefer Take since it is the imperative form of the verb.

So, if I am to accept Committments for salat, and rank for MAQAM, then I will translate this AYA this way
And Take from/of the rank of Ibrahim to perform commitment on

And this will be my more concrete and literal translation
And take of/from the place of standing of Ibrahim to perform Salat on.

I find my inderstanding clearer.

And We entrusted/recommended to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify/cleanse My House/Establishment1

Again GOD's establishment ( another vague word, but whatever it meant)is clean and has always been clean. It does not need cleansing. It is not the GOD's establishment that needs cleaning, it is the people and the people's establishments.

and for those who incline/humble10 and acknowledge11.

Here, the two words are states in which a person is in. Therefore it would be more correct to say
Those who are inclining, acknowledging. (another vague meaning)
Whereas my concrete literal meaning
Those who are bowing, prostrating.

I will end up with my personal view on the translation of Aidid's and less so on Wakas'. I feel that the words are vague words that make it nearly impossible to reach a clear conclusion. This troubles me.

Salaam all and have a good weekend

Hussein

born_again

Salaam All

6841 Or have they some "Partners"? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!

6842 The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to perform sujood, but they shall not be able,-

6843 Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

The ayats are for mushriken. If we take sujood literally then those who believe but do not pray they should be called too? Imo it talks about their humiliation, their embarrassment like a student who didn't do his homework and after being scolded by the teacher he looks down in shame. When the teacher asks "Why didn't you do it?" he just keeps looking down without uttering anything.

The verb "acknowledge" fits more properly compared to "obey" in the ayats.

I hope I made myself clear.

Peace...

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein, all,

Thank you for critiquing my translation. Since I am a novice with Arabic, I appreciate comments, particularly relating to grammar.

WAKAS interpreted Musalla as HIS committments.

no i didn't, i took it as the singular (commitment, or more accurately any word which means "to go/turn towards").

MUSALLA suggests that the Act of SALAT was/is/will be perfromed on the word before it (MAQAM).

before i comment, could you give severl examples of this in al quran, used with other words, just so i can see how this works more closely.

Again GOD's establishment ( another vague word, but whatever it meant)is clean and has always been clean. It does not need cleansing. It is not the GOD's establishment that needs cleaning, it is the people and the people's establishments.

the sign clearly states cleanse My BYT, thus if it was already clean and has always been clean whats the point in saying to someone to cleanse it? there is no point. thus, its a fact it can be cleansed. My understanding works for both physicl and non-physical. both are intrinsic components of a system. we, ourselves, are asked to cleanse our body as well as our soul.

the reason it doesn't use zkw is because this word implies to develop, mke better, evolve etc. Tay-ha(o)-Ra does not have a develop/better connottion. This was masterfully explained in the following rticle

http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/tazkiya.htm

From PRL

Tay-ha-Ra = to be or become clean/pure or free of dirt, made it or caused it to be distant/remote, cleanse/wash/purify, refrain, remove oneself, to clear/clean, ablution.

= Zay-Kaf-Waw = it increased/augmented, it throve/grew well/flourished/prospered and produced fruit, it was/became pure, purification, goodness/righteousness, lead/enjoy a plentiful/easy/soft/delicate life, put into a good/right state/condition, alms, poor-rate/due

Im sorry you feel my word-choices are vague, i can assure you however i take great care in choosing my words. please see dictionary.com for further expalntion

establishment

The act of establishing.
The condition or fact of being established.
Something established, as
An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
An established church.
A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff.
A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school.
often Establishment An established social order, as
A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
A controlling group in a given field of activity.

acknowledge

To admit the existence, reality, or truth of.
To recognize as being valid or having force or power.
To express recognition of acknowledge a friend's smile.
To express thanks or gratitude for.
To report the receipt of acknowledge a letter.
Law. To accept or certify as legally binding acknowledge a deed.

Whereas my concrete literal meaning
Those who are bowing, prostrating.

my translations of "incline/humble" & "acknowledge" are core literal meanings, thus will inevitably allow some flexibility. This is my style. I feel its best & most just, the wasat, if you will.

Wakas

Natu

Peace.

I think we?ll scrap objectives A, B, C, for now, because we?ve got a truly beautiful discussion going, we?ll use these divisions of the verse in a concluding post for this verse 2125. All I would like to say is that we carry on discussing verse 2125 other verses of relevance to this one, and not move onto the others in the list until we have come to an agreed conclusion on this verse. I thank all reading/participating brothers and sisters of your kindness in appreciating this thread.

Outside my computer, I?m unfortunately, well, in a bit of a ?situation? at the moment, so its not likely that I?ll be able to get online as frequently as I have done previously, but I will, God willing whenever he gives me the opportunity. For now I would like to contribute the following

To SABO

I hope you won't be pissed off if I just push my nose asking a question

Chill bruv, I?m not gonna get peed off. Anyway, it shouldn?t make a difference because its not as though I own this thread or anything, I just happen to be the one that put up the first post on it lol. From the way I write these posts I might seem like some kind of white haired ?robotic? personality, but I?m only 18! I like talking to people, we can have a laugh? Anyway, I?m not in a position to criticise anyone, after my despicable behaviour in the thread ?Shouldn?t we be like God?. I had a long debate with mz357 in that thread, and I couldn?t get on, but when I came back and read the whole thread again, I realised that I?d been acting very unjustly trying to force my point through, and that was what made me change my approach. (I take this opportunity to apologise to mz357). By the way, I?d like to stress again, that everyone removes misconceptions that this is ?my? thread in any way. I have just as much authority as anybody else.

Do you think the word "praising" (arabic tasbih) is something to be said or is it also a metaphoric word? see for example 20130

Sabo, my friend, you really have highlighted a diamond for this discussion. Thanks so much! You ask whether it is something to be said or something metaphorical. Technically, we can actually glorify God without saying things, e.g. by making a statement in text, or glorifying God whilst thinking, so we don?t need to consider whether it is metaphorical or not. When we read 11114, God tells us to uphold the salaat/commitments, and times in the day are mentioned. The way I see it, God is just highlighting times to make us realise that we are to meet his set standards round the clock, whenever we are awake. And then, as you have highlighted 20130 (to my great appreciation, I assure you), I have realised that this verse may give strength to the possibility that 11114 wasn?t talking about the timings of ritual prayer, because 20130 talks about glorifying in a similar way. Now it could be said that both salaat and tasbih cannot be the same thing, so this may give proof against daily ritual worship, however, it may also be said that 20130 gives more definition to what ritual prayer involves, i.e. one of the aims of the ritual is to glorify God. I look forward to your views, if what you wish to contribute is to do with 2125 (the verse being discussed currently), then by all means come on and discuss right now, but if its for a verse other than this that I have highlighted in post 1 then please post it up once we have moved onto that verse after reaching conclusions on the verses prior to that, and if it not highlighted there, then I would be grateful if you send it to me in a PM, (as can any other brothers/sisters who wish to discuss a specific verse in this thread that I have not mentioned in post 1), and I?ll add it to the list of verses in Post 1 as soon as I can.

I see it can move us a bit to a definition of the word "bayt"

Man I?d LOVE to hear you ? please roll onto the thread and say what you wish, I want to hear your understanding whether you reject ritual prayer or not. Thanks in advance.

TO HUSSEIN

I am unable to support Aidid's translation of Mathaba as providence in this light. Can you elaborate on how you connect this meaning with Aidid's?

I was under the impression that this was possible, but being a non-arab without access to a lexicon, I?m afraid I cannot explain this, and thus I cannot say that Aidid is right, although I am not rejecting the possibility that he is, perhaps other brothers and sisters could help out here.

Actually the opposite is true. The AYA start with ALBAIT= THE House or SYSTEM(as you like to interpret it) and the cleansing part is for BAITI= MY House or SYSTEM (as you prefer to translate)

D?oh! I knew I was doing something wrong, and I kept checking over my post before I put it up, but I missed the thing that was staring at me in the face! Apologies. Thanks for highlighting this. Your point Hussein is that we needn?t cleanse God?s system, but one could say that the system (software, as I?d prefer to refer to it) ?belongs to God?, in just the way the hardware/?everything else physical? does, so if we could cleanse the hardware physically, it could be said that we could cleanse the software non-physically. I might have just increased the confusion? I?ll go get some coffee?

Thanks very much for your help Hussein.

To IDOLFREE

I really like your understanding, of ?THE HOUSE?, its seems to work well, but there just one slight problem and that?s is in getting my head around the concept of ?the house? being within, but it?ll probably work after thinking it through for a bit? in a few more seconds? yip? that?s it! I think it completely works, but I?ll stay open to other understandings as well if they convince me. Thank you very much for your valuable input idol free, it was much appreciated.

I intend to help bring a unified understanding.

Get in Idolfree! I loved reading that, may God give us all success.

To BORN AGAIN

The ayats are for mushriken. If we take sujood literally then those who believe but do not pray they should be called too? Imo it talks about their humiliation, their embarrassment like a student who didn't do his homework and after being scolded by the teacher he looks down in shame. When the teacher asks "Why didn't you do it?" he just keeps looking down without uttering anything.

The verb "acknowledge" fits more properly compared to "obey" in the ayats.

I for one approve of your understanding born again, the context of the verse does work out to give your understanding. Thank you very much for helping.

Thanks to everybody talking and listening on this thread, may the God reward us all.

hlatif

Salaam Wakas, Natu, all,

Thanks for your notes

before i comment, could you give severl examples of this in al quran, used with other words, just so i can see how this works more closely.

Munazzal
6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
The words were
ANNAHU MUNAZZALUN which mean That He (the book) was sent
So munazzal means that the act of sending was done on the book
Another word MUHAMMADOf course that is the name of the prophet. When I say
HUWA MUHAMMAD, it means that he was praised
MUHAMMAD then means that the act of praise was performed on him

establishment

The act of establishing.
The condition or fact of being established.
Something established, as
An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
An established church.
A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff.
A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school.
often Establishment An established social order, as
A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
A controlling group in a given field of activity.

So what is GOD's establishment that was mentioned in the AYA in your view? And how do you clean it?
You can clean GOD's establishment if it is a house, but I am not clear that you can clean GOD's system.

acknowledge

To admit the existence, reality, or truth of.
To recognize as being valid or having force or power.
To express recognition of acknowledge a friend's smile.
To express thanks or gratitude for.
To report the receipt of acknowledge a letter.
Law. To accept or certify as legally binding acknowledge a deed.

I do apologise that I am not able to attach the meaning of the root S-J-D from PRL. However, if I remember correctly, the dictinary presented all the meanings and then somebody attached his/her own understanding that it is Acknowledgement. Therefore this meaning is a product of personal understanding that is not based on words in dictionaries. If so then this meaning is open for big debate. Please correct me and forgive me if I were mistaken.

Salaam all and have a good evenin

Hussein

sabo

Salam Natu and all,

Thanks Natu for your comments and answer. I hope you'll be patient with me to let me present how I connect the "praising" (tasbih) with "bayt" to arrive to a definition of bayt...Maybe I am wrong, but this is how I connect it.

I found over 80 verses containing the root s-b-h (tasbih) and found many of them connecting verbs like say, call, etc with it.

See for example (sorry but I'll not give reference to the verses according to free-minds numbering system)
232 , 5116, 7143, 1010, 12108, 1793, 17108, 2187, 2416, 2518, 278, 3441, 3975, 4313, 6828-29

These were verses connecting the saying with the praising...

Now I found the verse 2436 saying
In Houses (byoot plural or bayt) God has allowed to be raised, in them there are people praising God day and night.

If we understand the bayt as a system, then its hard to understand 2436 ... Which systems (plural) are meant to be?

I am not in a position where I can clearly proof anything completely right now, but I can through this connection with praising<->saying and then other connection praising<-> houses see that the understanding of bayt as a system not clear, vague and when I see it in plural form, its more contradicting my sense, since I wouldn't know which systems is this verse talking about....

any useful input? I'd appreciate it.

Best regards,
sabo

born_again

Salaam All

Hlatif wrote

I do apologise that I am not able to attach the meaning of the root S-J-D from PRL. However, if I remember correctly, the dictinary presented all the meanings and then somebody attached his/her own understanding that it is Acknowledgement. Therefore this meaning is a product of personal understanding that is not based on words in dictionaries. If so then this meaning is open for big debate. Please correct me and forgive me if I were mistaken.

Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, hear & obey, prostrate, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.
MSJD - parts of a man that are the places of SJD, e.g. forehead/nose/hands/knees/feet etc. Any mode/place/practice in which the act of SJD is done (could be physical or non-physical).

It is clear that the core meaning of Siin-Jiim-Dal is acknowledgement.

We can take the meanings "to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect" for 6842 and 6843 and the other SJD's instead of "to acknowledge" then?

Sabo wrote

Now I found the verse 2436 saying
In Houses (byoot plural or bayt) God has allowed to be raised, in them there are people praising God day and night.

If we understand the bayt as a system, then its hard to understand 2436 ... Which systems (plural) are meant to be?

The "bayt" in 2436 is not metaphorical. It talks about the houses of men.

Peace...

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein, all,

thanx for clarifying (i.e. Munazzal).

I still dont see a problem. The act of slw (i.e. to go/turn towards, commitment, attchment, link/bond/connect, follow closely) is done on his stance/position. his stnce/position is attchment/etc. his attachment/etc. is his position/stnce. it does not play a pssive role.

So what is GOD's establishment that was mentioned in the AYA in your view?

It could be either a physical building, a community/governing structure, order/system, prctice/implementtion of the deen, or non-physicl. Both are intrinsic, and both are required if one wishes to set-up/raise a community/governing structure. This is what is special about Abraham's story in my opinion. He not only manifested it within himself but set-up/raised the structure. e.g. you will never hear of a HJJ prior to Abrham, as this requires special structure, not just one building!

And how do you clean it?
You can clean GOD's establishment if it is a house, but I am not clear that you can clean GOD's system.

The God's system/law has been repeatedly corrupted time and time again, hence the succession of prophets. They repeatedly told the people how they corrupted (made unclean) The God's law/system etc. it still goes on today! thus it requires cleaning, i.e. removing of impurities, not improving/bettering (zkw), thus it can esily be cleaned, and it doesn't just involve a physical building. Bro, imagine if you were in chrge of Saudi Arabia for example, to cleanse the BYT/structure, do you think all is required is to cleanse a physical structure and your job is done? No! various laws/regultions would have to be clensed also. thus i cannot and will not limit my trans. to either a physical or non-physicl understanding, when both are clearly required. it makes sense logically and prctically.

NB please see natural republic, pilgrimmage section for major problems with maqam Ibrahim. it simply is not workable.
http//www.free-minds.org/TNR.zip

However, if I remember correctly, the dictinary presented all the meanings and then somebody attached his/her own understanding that it is Acknowledgement. Therefore this meaning is a product of personal understanding that is not based on words in dictionaries. If so then this meaning is open for big debate. Please correct me and forgive me if I were mistaken.

you remember correctly. I added the part you speak of. The reson was the core meaning was clear in every single dictionary meaning and every single usage in al quran. you will not find an exception to this rule in al qurn. please note, i never said its meaning was equal to "acknowledgement", i just said it ws the core. other meanings are alternative to that if u object to that specific term as born_again pointed out. furthermore, im fairly confident that this specific meaning could be found in dictionries. this specific root was only compiled from lane and the QD (which incorporates several). BUT as it is strictly an insertion on my part, i am willing to remove it if majority of contributors to PRL think it should be, OR mjority of users of PRL feel it should be omitted. I have no problems with that.

Wakas

hlatif

Salaam Wakas, all,

Thanks for responding.

I still dont see a problem. The act of slw (i.e. to go/turn towards, commitment, attchment, link/bond/connect, follow closely) is done on his stance/position. his stnce/position is attchment/etc. his attachment/etc. is his position/stnce. it does not play a pssive role.

1- MAQAM in an abstract form has never meant HIS stand on positions on some issue or law . It always meant, How he was viewd (by GOD or other), his rank or so.
I am inserting the link to open burhan
http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html
Please point me to where MAQAM has an active role.
2- So the translation would be like this
And take of the rank/how he is viewed/ standing of ibrahim to commit/connect/link to (if you are to do it your way)

I have difficulty understanding what that means.

It could be either a physical building, a community/governing structure, order/system, prctice/implementtion of the deen, or non-physicl. Both are intrinsic, and both are required if one wishes to set-up/raise a community/governing structure. This is what is special about Abraham's story in my opinion. He not only manifested it within himself but set-up/raised the structure. e.g. you will never hear of a HJJ prior to Abrham, as this requires special structure, not just one building!

As you know, I do not have a problem with the BAYT of GOD being a structure, because it can be cleaned. Now, if you mean the System of GOD in a non physical sense, then I will have a major problem

The system of GOD is constant. When changes occur to the system of GOD then it stops being GOD's system and becomes Man's system. So, the cleaning is not to GOD's system, it is to Man's sytem so that it becomes GOD's again. The AYAH however talks about cleaning GOD's BAYT and not man's BAYT to becomes GOD's again.

1777 (This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.

hence the succession of prophets. They repeatedly told the people how they corrupted (made unclean) The God's law/system etc

No, people left GOD's sytem when they corrupted it. They did not make GOD's sytem unclean. When they clean their systems, then they return to GOD's sytem.

NB please see natural republic, pilgrimmage section for major problems with maqam Ibrahim. it simply is not workable.
http//www.free-minds.org/TNR.zip

Thanks for the link. Very interesting article and has negatives and positives
The positive
It says that MAQAM IBRAHIM is a place. So, if you accept this article then you accept the MAQAM is a location
The negatives
The AYA that they base their argument about Jerusalem rather than Mecca is 397
In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), IBRAHIM's standing place who enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

The AYA talks about the IBRAHIM's standing place as Plural and not singular and that was the major fault of that article. It assumed a singular location. This supports my argument that I presented earlier that Ibrahim stood in and out and any where around the place. Ibrahim also stood in Jerusalem at the spot that the article talks about. That is another reason that the muslims made of the mosque in Jerusalem a MUSALLA.

please note, i never said its meaning was equal to "acknowledgement", i just said it ws the core

Thanks for clarifying. My major problem with acknowledgement is
1- you ackowledge people who are above you, below you or the same as you. SUJOOD is done always to entities that you consider above you.
2- Sujood always indicates that you are letting the entity that you performing Sujood to, know that you are showing respect. I am not certain if acknowledge does that.

Salaam all and have a great Sunday afternoon

hussein

TheNabi

Salaam Hussein,

People cannot make the system unclean, but they can corrupt it? Explain please.

No, people left GOD's sytem when they corrupted it.

Joe