THE THREAD - THE VERSES - THE UNDERSTADINGS - THE CONCLUSION

Grourself

Peace all,

Sujud is not a physical manifestation. Here is a brief analysis

I have found sa-la-ma used in the Qur'aan for mankind who has the gift of free will to surrender. I note in 383 & 1315 the addition of the words willingly and unwilling since all creation there as been included. I also note the malaika sujud and other inanimate things sujud. They have no free will to surrender.

Sa-ja-da=submit, submission = (English) The state of being submissive; acknowledgement of inferiority or dependence; humble or SUPPLIANT BEHAVIOR; meekness; resignation. The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; OBEDIENCE; COMPLIANCE.

Sa-la-ma = surrender= (English) To give up possession of; to yield; to resign; as, TO SURRENDER A RIGHT, PRIVILEGE, OR ADVANTAGE. give up or agree to FOREGO to the power or possession of another, surrender to something, to allow yourself to be controlled or influenced by something, to say officially that you want to stop fighting because you realize that YOU CANNOT WIN.

The obvious outcome of surrender is peace and security. In my humble understanding the two words are clearly not synonyms. Allah?s forces have been made submissive to mankind. For mankind, the inheritors of the Earth, we surrender our free will for the Lord of the Worlds and our submissions belong to Allah alone (7218 ).

As Aidid Safar points out there is no ?wa? in 2125 rather ?is? as the connecting term and I agree. There is no bowing down and prostrating. It is better rendered as humbly submit or incline/bend towards submission. I don?t find any useless rituals or unexplained symbolism in the reading. I keep reminding myself that a universal timeless message from the Creator who knows all the subtle differences within us would necessarily be all inclusive and non restrictive of diversification. The guidance in the message removes man-made shackles. If one reflects on what would unite I find unity as ?none? rather than all joining ?one?. No religion. Any ritual would become a marker.

The guidance teaches us how to run a society, unite as brothers and sisters and cause ourselves to grow, not how to define or organize a religion. We are to be convinced ?with ? His signs not ?in? His signs. We act ?with? His signs. It?s great to choose a point or verse of contention but perhaps we have jumped ahead. For example Bismillah translated by some as ?In the name of Allah? or ?With the name of God?. My research on the usage of this repeated phrase in ayyats where the phrase
?
(La) Yadhzkurunasmallahi alayha

Is saying ?(they do not) remember the descriptions or designations of God over/upon it?. It seems that the surahs are beginning with ?With The Descriptions/Designations of God? and in the surahs we are being told to ?remember God?s descriptions? whenever we ?use? any of the provisions He has given us. If we make a list of His descriptions over the risq we can come up with i.e., do not waste them, share them, do not kill game when they are forbidden, do not acquire them illegally, be fair and equitable when measuring them, do not eat filth, etc. I don?t think we have even yet translated bismillah correctly. God does not have names. This of course is only my understanding. Any input will be sincerely appreciated.

Natu

Peace.

Brother Hussein, this thread has become dormant for a while - would you say now that 2125 doesn't necessarily point to physical ritual prayer? if not, then there's no problem, please highlight in a post following this if you see any ways (if any) in which this verse may not lead to a physical ritual worship, so that the discussion may progress. If not then we shall I shall post a conclusion for 2125 and we shall move on to the next verse, God willing.

By the way, I'd like to thank all brothers and sisters for working so hard in this thread, may God give us all success.

born_again

Salaam

I doubt he will come back ( He was the only one who believed in ritual prayer and contributed to the discussion. If he doesn't come back then there's going to be hardly any activity here (

Natu

Peace born again.

I hope he's is doing well, aside from that, he is not the only brother who accepts physical ritual worship, I believe that key players like Layth and Edip should also be contributing here, if nobody comes on to represent those who support physical ritual worship, I myself will take on that role and try as hard as possible to support physical ritual worship (that should be fun...). Lets put it this way, if nobody contributes anything on 2125 to the effect of physical ritual prayer, then we can rest assured that as far as 2125 goes, it does not support physical ritual prayer. We shall wait till midnight tonight since this thread has been dormant for quite a while. If anyone has any objection to the conclsuion that 2125 doesn't support physical ritual prayer, then they may contribute at the end once we have been through all the verses highlighted in the first post in this thread. God willing immediately after midnight tonight I shall put up a progress report, conclusion on 2125 and a post signalling that the discussion has moved onto the next verse in the list.

Natu

PERIODIC PROGRESS REPORT

Can Gods establishment be cleansed?

It is now accepted that this is possible, (Nowhere in the reading does it say that it is perfect).

Can Mathaba be translated as providence?

Can be translated as reward or place of return no real bearing on whether physical ritual worship exists or not.

Does Maqam mean physical location, or viewpoint/stance on something?

It appears that the concept of maqam-e-ibrahim doesnt support a position for physical ritual prayer.

Current general understandings
2125 does not support physical ritual worship.

Natu

2125 (End of Discussion)

The shared conclusion is that 2125 does not support physical ritual worship. It is requested that all brothers and sisters who strongly support physical ritual worship and have sufficient knowledge of the issue to engage in debate, please participate in this discussion, it would bring unity to our community and help us promote one strong message. The discussion on 2125 has now ended, with the conclusion that it does not support physical ritual worship. Any brothers and sisters who may suggest otherwise may wish to type up posts and save them to be discussed once all the verses have been discussed. For now, we shall proceed to 2238

2238 (Start of Discussion)

Natu

2238
||Preserve the contact methods, and the middle contact method, and stand devoutly for God||

Aidid Safar translates this as follows

Guard over all the commitments and commit yourself moderately and be upright for God - in obedience

Criticisms of this understanding, which removes ritual prayer, may be posted now.

born_again

Lemme start the debate ) If salat-i wusta was a prayer then it would?ve been mentioned in ayat 2458. Fajr and Isra salats are there but no wusta. This means that it?s something else. Me and brother Wakas?s agreed understanding of the verse is

Preserve / guard your orations / bonds and the best (balanced) oration / bond (the QURAN) stand for the God in obedience.

Peace...

Wakas

some notes on 2238

I think 2239 should be taken into account when translating 2238. I would check A.S.'s trans. of 2239 for consistancy.

truth

Peace all,

Just glossing over the discussion here I want to point out that the way the question is framed is just as important as trying to search for the answers.

Natu has unfortunately framed the question in a loaded fashion. By calling it a 'ritual prayer' one is already condemning it as being meaningless. Rituals are patterned behaviours. Whether the behaviour is beneficial or not is debatable depending on the 'ritual'. A pilot has a ritual of going through the flight plan - a useful ritual for example.

I would say the following definition of ritual in this context of 'salat' is being used

A detailed method of procedure faithfully or regularly followed.

And there is no detailed method in the reading of a procedure to be followed - so the term "ritual" is a red herring, and loads the question unfavorably.

Even the term 'prayer' is a misnomer.

The questions are

Is there a 'salat'? - Yes.

Is there a time indicated for them? - Yes.

Salat is to me an overall commitment to be righteous. But in terms of the timed salat I am of the opinion that it is patently not a patterned procedure as it is not described; and it is not even necessarily a regular thing - as in the times are set out but you may not have a want for it at that time.

For example the cafeteria at work is open between 5-6 pm for dinner, but I may choose not to eat that day. And when I do eat I don't necessarily order the same meal. That's about the best analogy I can find for my own experience.

Regards.

Natu

Truth, you have made a good point.

From now we shall refer to the two sides as "physical salat" and "non-physical salat".

wildguest1956

Here are some interesting views about

There is no middle prayer

From verse 228 to 241 the subject is divorce and in divorce the role of mediator or broker becomes imperative.

WUSTA = mediator, intermediary, intermediate agent, middleman, go-between broker, intermediary, intermediate, middle

RIJAAL = men, great men, important men, leading personalities, men of distinction

RUKBAAN = retinue, escort

Meanings from A DICTIONARY OF MODERN WRITTEN ARABIC by "HANS WEHR"

Retinue = group of people attending to an important person (oxford dictionary)

Guard your COMMITMENTS and the COMMITMENTS of the MEDIATORS and stand devoutly for Allah and if you FEAR (that you cannot GUARD your COMMITMENTS as a MEDIATOR) then (take the help of) leading personalities or men attending such persons, and when you are in security/sure then remember Allah in the way He hath taught you which ye ever knew not.

The SALAAT AL WUSTA is the COMMITMENTS OF THE MEDIATOR and not the middle prayer.

Nadia Malik, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=28796

Salath wasta is central commitment(2/23.In verses mentioned before 2/238 the God is giving guidance and replying some important questions related with the life of individual as well as society.Like wise,how much we have to spend for the welfare of the society,how we have to take care of poor and orphans,struggle in implementing the system,relation between wife and husband in family life,to whom a muslim man/woman should marry and process of divorce etc.These all are very important commitments to make balance personality and society.

Quranic message is for eternity,during any period these all commitments are equally important but some of them play vital role and their solution require top priority attention and if these commitments will not be given due importance basis then society will tilt towards imbalance.For example in our time illiteracy and feudalism are the two very important issues which are responsible for mental and physical slavery.These ground realities should be given prime importance otherwise society will remain imbalance.Considering all this the understanding of verse 2/238 in which salth wasta is mentioned will be

"Guards all your commitments with particular attention to central core commitment and be ready all the time to do your job in the light of God's guidance".

sohail Qureshi, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=29019

While describing some important marital Laws, it is reiterated that, your Central Duty remains the guarding of the System in which individuals and families can develop their potentials to the maximum. Stay alert in the obedience to Allah.

Dr. Shabbir, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=29020

Peace to all

Natu

Peace.

It is now clear that 2238 doesnt necessarily support physical salat, and more accurate translation supports non-physical salat.

However I still have problems with the following

The concept of orations - I remember reading about this in a thread a while back, but I cant remember which exactly this is, perhaps born again may provide a link to that here so that readers may understand how this conclusion was reached also it would be much appreciated if anyone who does not accept orations as the definition to be used here, to make appropriate commentary.
What is the understanding of the end bit of the verse stand for the God in obedience? Does this n support physical salat?
From the quotes kindly provided by /JM/

From verse 228 to 241 the subject is divorce and in divorce the role of mediator or broker becomes imperative.

WUSTA = mediator, intermediary, intermediate agent, middleman, go-between broker, intermediary, intermediate, middle

What conclusions do we reach on this? Because to my understanding, 228-241 isnt continuously about divorce, because verse 240 isnt anything to do with divorce. Plus, even if 2238 and 2239 are considered as part of the divorce rules, then it is a good follow on from the end of 2237 And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favour between you; GOD IS SEER OVER WHAT YOU DO Following this God tells us what to do (salat)

Aside from this, all is well and it looks like were on for a conclusion on 2238 now (in support of non-physical salat). By the way, is there any way I can get my hands on you translation Wakas, so that instead of using ASs translation we can use yours in the introductory post to each verse?

If anybody who supports physical salat wishes to make contributions then they are strongly encourage to do so. This thread is back people )

born_again

Peace.

It is now clear that 2238 doesn?t necessarily support physical salat, and more accurate translation supports non-physical salat.

However I still have problems with the following

The concept of orations - I remember reading about this in a thread a while back, but I can?t remember which exactly this is, perhaps born again may provide a link to that here so that readers may understand how this conclusion was reached ? also it would be much appreciated if anyone who does not accept orations as the definition to be used here, to make appropriate commentary.
What is the understanding of the end bit of the verse ?stand for the God in obedience?? ? Does this n support physical salat?

Salaam

2238 was discussed here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3206

I don't think standing supports physical salaat because oration was being listened standing, the ayats below prove this

073.02-04 STAND by night, but not all night,- Half of it,- or a little less, Or a little more; and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.

025.064 Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate (the mind) and STANDING;

039.009 Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or STANDING (in adoration), who takes heed of the Hereafter, and who places his hope in the Mercy of his Lord - (like one who does not)? Say "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition.

But it could be done on foot or riding in case of a fear (of what I don't know).

002.239 If ye fear, (establish the oration) on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).

Peace...

Wakas

peace Natu,

I'm not sure what trans. you are referring to. I dont really have one. If you mean for 2238, then here it is, from the thread born_again referenced.

Preserve/guard on the orations/bonds, and the most balanced oration/bond, and stand/persist to/for The God in obedience.

The context prior to 2238 discusses formal/public orations/vows/bonds. The core meaning of these orations/vows, as implied by the root, are to go/turn towards in a close/positive manner. This view is given further weight by the use of "QaNiTeena/obedience" at the end of the ayat/sign. And the reference of "the most balanced oration/bond" (i.e. al/the quran/reading) provides a perfect link for 2239.

Wakas

Natu

Preserve/guard on the orations/bonds, and the most balanced oration/bond, and stand/persist to/for The God in obedience.

If the highlighted bit of the translation is possible, then we can safely say that this verse doesn't neccessarily support physical salat. is this agreed upon?

Nural_Amin

Peace,

Can't this possibly mean preserve/uphold/support the meaning/laws/way of God?

The Book tells us about the things we must commit ourselves to, therefore Aididsafar.com usage of salat=commitements works better, that site would say the meaning of what was traditionally translated as 'observe contact prayers/ritual prayer/detailed method of linking and pay the zakat' is actually 'uphold the commitents and keep them pure'.

Personally imho this is the best meaning so far and it is a very important thing that must be done for Islam to prosper and for sucess and peace to come.

Natu- that verse you quoted does not support a physical prayer, if the promotores of physical salat are using that sort of 'evidence' then their argement is very weak.

Nural

wildguest1956

Preserve/protect/guard/maintain (hafithoo) the salawati, and (wa) the wusta salati, and stand/persist (qoomoo) devoutly to GOD.
But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure/safe (amintum), then remember/mention God as He Has taught you what you did not know.

My understanding of verse as of today is the following

"Maintain the commitments (to obey the commands of God, like the ones in the preceding verses about marriage and divorce), and (especially) the central commitment (to remember God, like it is said in the following verse), and stand devoutly to God."

That is, I think aims to remind people they have to remember God to muster the motivation to comply to God's exigencies as expressed in the preceding (and following) verses about marriage and divorce.

How should we remember God ?
Imho, is detailed in , where it seems salat can be translated as prayer (commitment to pray in congregation).

And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms; (for) those who disbelieve desire that you may be careless of your arms and your luggage, so that they may then turn upon you with a sudden united attack, and there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms, and take your precautions; surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.
Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.