THEFT PUNISHMENT

beatnik

Malik 538 Male or female, whoever is guilty of theft, cut off the
hand (that was used in theft) of either of them as a
punishment for their crime. This is exemplary
punishment ordained by Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Pickthall 538 As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their
hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an
exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty,
Wise.

peace .
that is not an alternative to theft punishment . the punishment accordnig to 538 is to cutoff the hands of the thieves , no "alternative" is mentioned. (i m not sure if to cutoff both hands or just one .) . in the story of joseph ,they let his brothers decide the punishment for themselves .

I think the debate here is over the translation of the Arabic word that Malik and Pickethall have translated as 'hands'.

I dont mind the FM view of this verse (brought about by going to the root of the Arabic word and exploring its meanings), because if you read the Quran where else are we commanded to mutilate someone for them commiting a sin? We are allowed to kill but only in self defence to protect ourselves and our way of life, but I cant think of any other example of hurting someone, so for us to be commanded to mutilate someone for stealing (which isnt even a 'big' sin in the first place) is a bit strange dont you think? There is the verse for, I think, whipping an adulterer? But even that is prevented with the option to leave them alone to repent themselves, and even lashing is still no way in the league of dismembering someone.

I guess we need someone to explain to us the root word and its meanings, I'm not an expert.

jonny_k

Salam,
The Quran says
The thief, male or female, you shall CUT(NOT cut off) their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

*538 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 1231 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they cut'' their hands. Obviously, they did not cut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 538 and 1231, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 1231, we see the same word (1250).

So now we see y GOD mentions the women 'cutting(the same root word as in 53' their hands when they saw Joseph. I read the story of Joseph in the OT Bible but did not find this incidant. This cannot be coincidence n it is clear tht GOD wants 2 pt 2 the correct meaning or rather understanding of the word used 4 'cut' in the Quran. GOD Bless!

Fahad1

So now we see y GOD mentions the women 'cutting(the same root word as in 53' their hands when they saw Joseph. I read the story of Joseph in the OT Bible but did not find this incidant. This cannot be coincidence n it is clear tht GOD wants 2 pt 2 the correct meaning or rather understanding of the word used 4 'cut' in the Quran. GOD Bless!

salam .
the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate .

Tay

Peace Saladin,

You stated,

the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate .

How do you know it means amputate and not "cut"? Both meanings fit the context.

Peace,
Tay

Fahad1

Peace Saladin,

You stated,

the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate .

How do you know it means amputate and not "cut"? Both meanings fit the context.

Peace,
Tay

salam.
by "cut" , do u mean "mark" . r u trying to say the pharoah commanded to "mark" the hands and feet ?

Idris

peace be upon all,

I'm pretty sure that to cut the hands and feet is an idiom for forcibly taking away their movement (imprisoning them) how could pharoah crucify them after cutting their limbs off when it is necessary to nail the limbs for crucifiction?

just as that is an idiom for imprisonment I believe to "cut the hands" is an idiom for taking away an equal amount of their resources to what they stole or making them work to repay for what they stole

as you can see the same phrase used for what we should do to thieves in 538 is used in 1231 ti describe what the women did to themselves when they saw Joseph, obviously they didn't cut off their own hands

plus in 538 the punishment is described as JAZAA' BI- MAA KASABAA (a recompense with what (they) earned) KASAB =to gain, win, profit, earn, get, obtain, acquire

the punishment is equivalent for what they did, does literally cutting or cutting off the hands fit this description?

beatnik

the punishment is equivalent for what they did, does literally cutting or cutting off the hands fit this description?

Another good point, there is alot of equity in the Quran.

Tay

Peace Saladin,

You asked,

r u trying to say the pharoah commanded to "mark" the hands and feet ?

Honestly, I'm not trying to say anything. I'm simply curious about how you came to the solid conclusion that "faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma" is meant to be literally understood as 'amputated'.

Using this same methodology and root, would you consider 254 as literal also? Do you think Moses ordered his people to kill themselves?

Please understand, I mean no offense, and I respect your opinion. I have no need to shovel mine along. I'm asking you to elaborate in light of the big picture of the Qur'an- most notably, the Divine Attributes of Compassion and Mercy. How does your interpretation fit into this big picture?

Peace,
Tay

Riz

"Qata'a means to cut, but when used with different nouncs it means different things idiomatically, such as to stop someone from speaking when used with lisan, toungue, or cut off the road when used with sabil, or become hopeless when used with rajul,man, etc. In 1231, for instance, qtta'na aidihunna means they wounded their hands or stopped peeling fruit, not cut off their hand. Hense here, in 538, it could also mean to stop their hands from stealing by adopting deterrent means, for the next verse, 39, speaks of repentance and forgiveness whith overtones of rehabilitation, which would be lost if the hands were cut off completely or amputated. Similarly in v.33 tuqtta'a could mean to restrain them by putting fetters on one hand and one leg.

During the Ummayyad caliphate, the punishment for theft was flogging. "
--from Ahmed Ali's "Al Quran A contemporary Translation"

Hadith flurished during the Abbassid period in which the new punishment, amputation, was enforced. This punishment was clearly stolen from the Old Testament.

Wakas

peace all,

also, dunno if nyone mentioned it, it says cut the hands PLURAL, i.e. more than two in the Arabic form.

Wakas

Fahad1

peace be upon all,

I'm pretty sure that to cut the hands and feet is an idiom for forcibly taking away their movement (imprisoning them) how could pharoah crucify them after cutting their limbs off when it is necessary to nail the limbs for crucifiction?

pharoah could nail their wrists or arms for crucification .

plus in 538 the punishment is described as JAZAA' BI- MAA KASABAA (a recompense with what (they) earned) KASAB =to gain, win, profit, earn, get, obtain, acquire

the punishment is equivalent for what they did, does literally cutting or cutting off the hands fit this description?

yes , according to God ,this is the punishment . and is equivalent .

zenje

also, dunno if nyone mentioned it, it says cut the hands PLURAL, i.e. more than two in the Arabic form.
Interesting point. )

I'm curious also, and mean no offence to anyone's beliefs, etc... This is a question to anyone on this forum...

If you caught a thief, today, after having stolen your money or belongings... would any of you mark, cut or amputate one or more of their limbs?... would you really ?

Whatever interpretation you believe to be true. A simple yes or no answer, would also be sufficient.

Thanks and Peace.

Tay

Zen, Make a wish...your next post is #2222!!!!

Back to the subject, the QXP explanation of this topic makes sense to me, on a spiritual and logical note

538 (Theft is a crime that steals away the sense of security from a society). A habitual thief, male or female, must have their ability (to steal) cut off. This is the reward for their doings, and a deterrent from Allah. Allah is Almighty, Wise.

As to your question, Zenje, I couldn't bring myself to harm an individual for stealing something materialistic from me. Where, exactly, does one draw the line between discipline and stigmatizing someone for life?

I find it difficult to grasp that such a harsh punishment is dealt for theft, yet nothing as harsh is mentioned for child molestation, or rape, or incest.

Peace,
Tay

Fahad1

If you caught a thief, today, after having stolen your money or belongings... would any of you mark, cut or amputate one or more of their limbs?... would you really ?

Whatever interpretation you believe to be true. A simple yes or no answer, would also be sufficient.

Thanks and Peace.

if he repents i would not have him punished . if he steals for the second time then the punishment would be applied .

marie

Peace all,

According the commands given 545, this meaning ?cut their hands? is not correct, because a life for a life?..and equal injury for injury

And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.

In 477, kuffoo aydiyakum means restrain yourselves/your hands but from what? from fighting according the context.

The verb ?qataAAa? could mean to break the bond? (227, 4722 ) and it is the opposite of to unit (1325)

In the same way than 477 ?iqtaAAoo aydiyahuma? (538 ) could mean keep their hands/themselves away from the source of their crime, break their relation from the source of their theft,

Did you not see those who were told ?Restrain yourselves/your hands (kuffoo aydiyakum), and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment.? But when fighting was decreed for them, a group of them feared the people as much as they feared God or even more so. And they said ?Our Lord, why did You decree fighting for us? If only You would delay for us till another time.? Say ?The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is far better for those who are aware; you will not be wronged in the least.?

The God knows best

Peace

zenje

if he repents i would not have him punished . if he steals for the second time then the punishment would be applied .
I'm asking if YOU would do it.

Peace. )

PS - Tay... 2225 posts.... and I've slowed down much, nowadays! wink

Fahad1

if he repents i would not have him punished . if he steals for the second time then the punishment would be applied .
I'm asking if YOU would do it.

whether i would do it ? who is supposed to be punishing the criminals ? me ? or the authorities ?
salam.

Fahad1

Peace all,

According the commands given 545, this meaning ?cut their hands? is not correct, because a life for a life?..and equal injury for injury

And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.

salam.
cutting hands is made a just and examplary requital by God . the best way to keep the crime in check . or what punishment do u think should be then for a cheating husband who commits adultery ? that his wife should also cheat on him and commit adultery ?!!! is that what u mean by "equal injury for injury" ? no . flogging in public is made the most just and examplary punishment for the one who commits adultery . he will be requited by flogging , not by the way that his wife may also cheat on him .

same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .

zenje

if he repents i would not have him punished . if he steals for the second time then the punishment would be applied .
I'm asking if YOU would do it.

whether i would do it ? who is supposed to be punishing the criminals ? me ? or the authorities ?
salam.
It was a hypothetical question addressed to any individual here. Just like Tay answered, he couldn't bring himself to do it. I don't expect him to, even if he said yes. I wouldn't do it either, whether the "authorities" allowed it or not. Just looking for an opinion.

Thanks for your reply.

Peace

wildguest1956

same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .

Why are you dissatisfied by Br Joe's explanation here ?
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm

Peace