THEFT PUNISHMENT
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salam all .
there is a clear command in the koran to cut off the hands of the thieves . but some ppl have come up with the understanding that it is actually to mark the hands of the thieves or cut off resources ?!!
i would like to know ur opinion on this issue .
salam.
fahad. -
yes...i too want to ask the same thing...i had understand under parts,but when it come to punishment for thief/thieves,i think it is so not clear... pls enlighten me.
thank u.
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Peace,
There is also an alternative to 'cutting' the hands, look at the story of Joseph where the theif is required to compensate until he repays.
I think the understanding comes from reading on, when one reads on it talks about forgiveness if the person repents and reforms, if they have been amputated then they have not been forgiven because that hand or both hands are gone forever.
Personally, using logic one can see that it is unjust, I feel this way because a man's day-job may depend on the usage of his hands like many other things (eating, drinking etc.) It will be a big punishment for his family who must take care of him, is this justice in your eyes?
This is all I can say because I don't know much arabic, maybe a linguist can explain whether mark is a even a potential meaning, if it is then it fits.
nural
Nural
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There is also an alternative to 'cutting' the hands, look at the story of Joseph where the theif is required to compensate until he repays.
Malik 538 Male or female, whoever is guilty of theft, cut off the
hand (that was used in theft) of either of them as a
punishment for their crime. This is exemplary
punishment ordained by Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.Pickthall 538 As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their
hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an
exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty,
Wise.peace .
that is not an alternative to theft punishment . the punishment accordnig to 538 is to cutoff the hands of the thieves , no "alternative" is mentioned. (i m not sure if to cutoff both hands or just one .) . in the story of joseph ,they let his brothers decide the punishment for themselves .I think the understanding comes from reading on, when one reads on it talks about forgiveness if the person repents and reforms, if they have been amputated then they have not been forgiven because that hand or both hands are gone forever.
if the person repents and reforms then God will forgive him i.e, he will not be punished in the hereafter . or if he repents and makes amends before being caught , then he must be forgiven .
539 But whoso repenteth after his wrongdoing and
amendeth, lo! Allah will relent toward him. Lo! Allah
is Forgiving, Merciful.salam.
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Malik 538 Male or female, whoever is guilty of theft, cut off the
hand (that was used in theft) of either of them as a
punishment for their crime. This is exemplary
punishment ordained by Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.Pickthall 538 As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their
hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an
exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty,
Wise.peace .
that is not an alternative to theft punishment . the punishment accordnig to 538 is to cutoff the hands of the thieves , no "alternative" is mentioned. (i m not sure if to cutoff both hands or just one .) . in the story of joseph ,they let his brothers decide the punishment for themselves .I think the debate here is over the translation of the Arabic word that Malik and Pickethall have translated as 'hands'.
I dont mind the FM view of this verse (brought about by going to the root of the Arabic word and exploring its meanings), because if you read the Quran where else are we commanded to mutilate someone for them commiting a sin? We are allowed to kill but only in self defence to protect ourselves and our way of life, but I cant think of any other example of hurting someone, so for us to be commanded to mutilate someone for stealing (which isnt even a 'big' sin in the first place) is a bit strange dont you think? There is the verse for, I think, whipping an adulterer? But even that is prevented with the option to leave them alone to repent themselves, and even lashing is still no way in the league of dismembering someone.
I guess we need someone to explain to us the root word and its meanings, I'm not an expert.
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Salam,
The Quran says
The thief, male or female, you shall CUT(NOT cut off) their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.*538 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 1231 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they
cut'' their hands. Obviously, they did notcut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 538 and 1231, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 1231, we see the same word (1250).So now we see y GOD mentions the women 'cutting(the same root word as in 53' their hands when they saw Joseph. I read the story of Joseph in the OT Bible but did not find this incidant. This cannot be coincidence n it is clear tht GOD wants 2 pt 2 the correct meaning or rather understanding of the word used 4 'cut' in the Quran. GOD Bless!
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So now we see y GOD mentions the women 'cutting(the same root word as in 53' their hands when they saw Joseph. I read the story of Joseph in the OT Bible but did not find this incidant. This cannot be coincidence n it is clear tht GOD wants 2 pt 2 the correct meaning or rather understanding of the word used 4 'cut' in the Quran. GOD Bless!
salam .
the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate . -
Peace Saladin,
You stated,
the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate .
How do you know it means amputate and not "cut"? Both meanings fit the context.
Peace,
Taysalam.
by "cut" , do u mean "mark" . r u trying to say the pharoah commanded to "mark" the hands and feet ? -
peace be upon all,
I'm pretty sure that to cut the hands and feet is an idiom for forcibly taking away their movement (imprisoning them) how could pharoah crucify them after cutting their limbs off when it is necessary to nail the limbs for crucifiction?
just as that is an idiom for imprisonment I believe to "cut the hands" is an idiom for taking away an equal amount of their resources to what they stole or making them work to repay for what they stole
as you can see the same phrase used for what we should do to thieves in 538 is used in 1231 ti describe what the women did to themselves when they saw Joseph, obviously they didn't cut off their own hands
plus in 538 the punishment is described as JAZAA' BI- MAA KASABAA (a recompense with what (they) earned) KASAB =to gain, win, profit, earn, get, obtain, acquire
the punishment is equivalent for what they did, does literally cutting or cutting off the hands fit this description?
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Peace Saladin,
You asked,
r u trying to say the pharoah commanded to "mark" the hands and feet ?
Honestly, I'm not trying to say anything. I'm simply curious about how you came to the solid conclusion that "faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma" is meant to be literally understood as 'amputated'.
Using this same methodology and root, would you consider 254 as literal also? Do you think Moses ordered his people to kill themselves?
Please understand, I mean no offense, and I respect your opinion. I have no need to shovel mine along. I'm asking you to elaborate in light of the big picture of the Qur'an- most notably, the Divine Attributes of Compassion and Mercy. How does your interpretation fit into this big picture?
Peace,
Tay -
"Qata'a means to cut, but when used with different nouncs it means different things idiomatically, such as to stop someone from speaking when used with lisan, toungue, or cut off the road when used with sabil, or become hopeless when used with rajul,man, etc. In 1231, for instance, qtta'na aidihunna means they wounded their hands or stopped peeling fruit, not cut off their hand. Hense here, in 538, it could also mean to stop their hands from stealing by adopting deterrent means, for the next verse, 39, speaks of repentance and forgiveness whith overtones of rehabilitation, which would be lost if the hands were cut off completely or amputated. Similarly in v.33 tuqtta'a could mean to restrain them by putting fetters on one hand and one leg.
During the Ummayyad caliphate, the punishment for theft was flogging. "
--from Ahmed Ali's "Al Quran A contemporary Translation"Hadith flurished during the Abbassid period in which the new punishment, amputation, was enforced. This punishment was clearly stolen from the Old Testament.
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peace be upon all,
I'm pretty sure that to cut the hands and feet is an idiom for forcibly taking away their movement (imprisoning them) how could pharoah crucify them after cutting their limbs off when it is necessary to nail the limbs for crucifiction?
pharoah could nail their wrists or arms for crucification .
plus in 538 the punishment is described as JAZAA' BI- MAA KASABAA (a recompense with what (they) earned) KASAB =to gain, win, profit, earn, get, obtain, acquire
the punishment is equivalent for what they did, does literally cutting or cutting off the hands fit this description?
yes , according to God ,this is the punishment . and is equivalent .
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also, dunno if nyone mentioned it, it says cut the hands PLURAL, i.e. more than two in the Arabic form.
Interesting point. )I'm curious also, and mean no offence to anyone's beliefs, etc... This is a question to anyone on this forum...
If you caught a thief, today, after having stolen your money or belongings... would any of you mark, cut or amputate one or more of their limbs?... would you really ?
Whatever interpretation you believe to be true. A simple yes or no answer, would also be sufficient.
Thanks and Peace.
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Zen, Make a wish...your next post is #2222!!!!
Back to the subject, the QXP explanation of this topic makes sense to me, on a spiritual and logical note
538 (Theft is a crime that steals away the sense of security from a society). A habitual thief, male or female, must have their ability (to steal) cut off. This is the reward for their doings, and a deterrent from Allah. Allah is Almighty, Wise.
As to your question, Zenje, I couldn't bring myself to harm an individual for stealing something materialistic from me. Where, exactly, does one draw the line between discipline and stigmatizing someone for life?
I find it difficult to grasp that such a harsh punishment is dealt for theft, yet nothing as harsh is mentioned for child molestation, or rape, or incest.
Peace,
Tay -
If you caught a thief, today, after having stolen your money or belongings... would any of you mark, cut or amputate one or more of their limbs?... would you really ?
Whatever interpretation you believe to be true. A simple yes or no answer, would also be sufficient.
Thanks and Peace.
if he repents i would not have him punished . if he steals for the second time then the punishment would be applied .
