THEFT PUNISHMENT
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Peace all,
According the commands given 545, this meaning ?cut their hands? is not correct, because a life for a life?..and equal injury for injury
- And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
In 477, kuffoo aydiyakum means restrain yourselves/your hands but from what? from fighting according the context.
The verb ?qataAAa? could mean to break the bond? (227, 4722 ) and it is the opposite of to unit (1325)
In the same way than 477 ?iqtaAAoo aydiyahuma? (538 ) could mean keep their hands/themselves away from the source of their crime, break their relation from the source of their theft,
- Did you not see those who were told ?Restrain yourselves/your hands (kuffoo aydiyakum), and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment.? But when fighting was decreed for them, a group of them feared the people as much as they feared God or even more so. And they said ?Our Lord, why did You decree fighting for us? If only You would delay for us till another time.? Say ?The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is far better for those who are aware; you will not be wronged in the least.?
The God knows best
Peace
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Peace all,
According the commands given 545, this meaning ?cut their hands? is not correct, because a life for a life?..and equal injury for injury
- And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
salam.
cutting hands is made a just and examplary requital by God . the best way to keep the crime in check . or what punishment do u think should be then for a cheating husband who commits adultery ? that his wife should also cheat on him and commit adultery ?!!! is that what u mean by "equal injury for injury" ? no . flogging in public is made the most just and examplary punishment for the one who commits adultery . he will be requited by flogging , not by the way that his wife may also cheat on him .same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .
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if he repents i would not have him punished . if he steals for the second time then the punishment would be applied .
I'm asking if YOU would do it.whether i would do it ? who is supposed to be punishing the criminals ? me ? or the authorities ?
salam.
It was a hypothetical question addressed to any individual here. Just like Tay answered, he couldn't bring himself to do it. I don't expect him to, even if he said yes. I wouldn't do it either, whether the "authorities" allowed it or not. Just looking for an opinion.Thanks for your reply.
Peace
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same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .
Why are you dissatisfied by Br Joe's explanation here ?
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htmPeace
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Just a reflection...
What is 'theft'? Is there any condition of theft that can justify the cutting of hands?
Maybe people would assume theft as someone breaking into a house and taking valuables. Or pointing a gun to a woman in a dark alley and nicking her jewelry.
What about a government official keeping public funds for himself? What about cybercrime? What about large corporations 'robbing' smaller firms of market opportunity?
I think the issue of theft needs to be expanded.
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Salam Saladin
what punishment do u think should be then for a cheating husband who commits adultery ? that his wife should also cheat on him and commit adultery ?!!!is that what u mean by "equal injury for injury" ? no .
The punishement for those who commit adultery and and those who accuse the independent women ... is whithout ambiguity (242, 244).
545 is about the physical crimes. For the immoral acts like adultery and false accusations.. , we have to judge by what God has sent down (242, 244)
flogging in public is made the most just and examplary punishment for the one who commits adultery . he will be requited by flogging , not by the way that his wife may also cheat on him .
There is no comparison between (545) and (242 and 244). The God explains how do we have to judge the physical crime and the immoral acts.
Those who are concerned by 242 and 244 could not be judged according 545 because they don't commit a physical crime but immoral crimes and they would be punished according to what the God has sent down (chapter 24)same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .
I disgree because it violates 545
And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar.(545)
and hand for hand, and leg for leg, and finger for finger..
Brother Joe explained it nicely in his article Theft Punishment
Chance should be given to the thieves to come forward, acknowledge their crime, and give back what they have stolen to the victims. They might even get a reward. If they do not come forward, prove should be found who are the thieves. Thieves should then work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid.
This is what I understand from 539
Whoever repents after the crime and makes amends by giving back what he has stolen to the victims, the God is Forgiving, Merciful
Shabir
539 Whoever repents after the crime and makes amends, surely, Allah grants him pardon. Verily, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (If the hands are cut off, where are the making amends, pardon and mercy?) -
Peace all,
The word Jazao/The reward is used for similar actions (agression, bad deeds) and could mean similar reward/recompense/retribution., 2191 illustrates very well this meaning
Expel them from where they expelled you? if they fight you , then fight against them. Such is the reward (jazao) of the disbelievers. (2191)
- The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources, this is the reward (jazaan) for their doings, and a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense (fajazaon) ?an animal? equivalent/similar (mithlu) to the game animal that was killed which shall be judged by two equitable persons from you ?.(595)
The God?s justice is a model for us
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Indeed, God does not wrong an atom?s weight; and if it is good He will double it. And He grants from Himself a great reward.
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As for those who earn evil, the recompense (jazao) of evil will be evil like it (mithliha), and they will be humiliated. They do not have any besides God as a helper. It is as if their faces have been covered by a piece of darkness from the night. These are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
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The recompense (jazao) for a crime shall be its equivalence/the equivalent retribution/antidote (mithluha), but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
In 538, the reward of the thief, male or female is the restitution of what they have stolen.
to cut their hands cannot be the equivalent recompense (Jazao) for their doings.
Every poison has his antidote )
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salam marie and all .
Salam Saladin
what punishment do u think should be then for a cheating husband who commits adultery ? that his wife should also cheat on him and commit adultery ?!!!is that what u mean by "equal injury for injury" ? no .
The punishement for those who commit adultery and and those who accuse the independent women ... is whithout ambiguity (242, 244).
the hand cutting commandment is also without ambiguity .
545 is about the physical crimes. For the immoral acts like adultery and false accusations.. , we have to judge by what God has sent down (242, 244)
flogging in public is made the most just and examplary punishment for the one who commits adultery . he will be requited by flogging , not by the way that his wife may also cheat on him .
There is no comparison between (545) and (242 and 244). The God explains how do we have to judge the physical crime and the immoral acts.
Those who are concerned by 242 and 244 could not be judged according 545 because they don't commit a physical crime but immoral crimes and they would be punished according to what the God has sent down (chapter 24)same way , the thief will be punished by cutting his hands .
I disgree because it violates 545
And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar.(545)
and hand for hand, and leg for leg, and finger for finger..
you say that adultery is an immoral crime ,while theft is physical one ? come on . theft is also an "immoral" crime , not a "physical" one . and by the way , adultery is more "physical" than theft .
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Peace saladin,
You wrote
the hand cutting commandment is also without ambiguity .
I respect your view but this meaning contradict 4220 and 545
- The recompense (jazao) for a crime shall be its equivalence/the equivalent retribution/antidote (mithluha), but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
According 545, hand for hand...
In 538, we are asked to apply a reward/retribution (jazao) equivalent to their deed. It is not a physical punishment like in 242 where the word AAathab/punishment is used instead of jazao/reward, and we are also told "do not let any pity take you over God?s system"
Why the God doesn't ask us to witness the punishment/AAathab of The male thief, and the female thief?
you say that adultery is an immoral crime ,while theft is physical one ? come on . theft is also an "immoral" crime ,
I did not say the opposite, both are immoral crimes.
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According 545, hand for hand...
yeah , if someone cuts ur hand, u cut his hand . but punishment for theft is also taht .
you say that adultery is an immoral crime ,while theft is physical one ? come on . theft is also an "immoral" crime ,
I did not say the opposite, both are immoral crimes.
u said that theft is a physical(and immoral) crime while adultery is only immoral .
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According 545, hand for hand...
yeah , if someone cuts ur hand, u cut his hand . but punishment for theft is also taht .
No, "The recompense (jazao) for a crime shall be its equivalence" doesnt mean theft for theft, we have to use our logic roll
you say that adultery is an immoral crime ,while theft is physical one ? come on . theft is also an "immoral" crime ,
I did not say the opposite, both are immoral crimes.
u said that theft is a physical(and immoral) crime while adultery is only immoral .
Don't let confuse physical crimes (physical damages like killing, cutting hand, leg, breaking the teeth....etc) and immoral acts commited by hand (theft), mouth (false accusations)...etc
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According 545, hand for hand...
yeah , if someone cuts ur hand, u cut his hand . but punishment for theft is also taht .
No, "The recompense (jazao) for a crime shall be its equivalence" doesnt mean theft for theft, we have to use our logic roll
i meant the punishment for theft is cutting hands .
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yeah , if someone cuts ur hand, u cut his hand . but punishment for theft is also taht .
That doesnt make sense...
Its like saying, if someone spills drink on your dress you burn their house down. ? (an over the top punishment that is completely unrelated to the offense comitted)
Logically, punishment for theft should be for the thief to first lose whatever it is they stole and/or to work hard to gain back the losses for whoever they stole from. That is equivalence. Punishing them in a crude manner such as cutting their hand off makes no sense, especially in this day and age, where stealing isnt as simple as grabbing fruit from a stall and running away with it. (I assume advocates of hand-cutting believe this will somehow stop people from stealing)
If there was no doubt about the translation, I wouldnt be in this thread, the only thing I am sure of is the concept of equivalence that is promoted numerous times in the Quran.
Main points of debate here to sum up
- Definition of equivalence.
- Accuracy of the word 'hand' or 'resources' in translation.
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yeah , if someone cuts ur hand, u cut his hand . but punishment for theft is also taht .
That doesnt make sense...
Its like saying, if someone spills drink on your dress you burn their house down. ? (an over the top punishment that is completely unrelated to the offense comitted)
the punishment for adultery and homosexuality also sounds over-the-top to many people . because they try to be more merciful than God .
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Salam beatnik,
If there was no doubt about the translation, I wouldnt be in this thread, the only thing I am sure of is the concept of equivalence that is promoted numerous times in the Quran.
Main points of debate here to sum up
- Definition of equivalence.
- Accuracy of the word 'hand' or 'resources' in translation.
I think these two verses 564, 511 bring additional information for 538
- And the Jews said ?The hand of God is tied-down!? Their hands will be tied-down, and they will be cursed for what they have said. No, His hands are wide open spending as He wills. And for many of them, what has been sent down to you will increase them in rebellion and rejection; and We have cast between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the fire of war, God puts it out; and they seek to make corruption in the land; and God does not like the corrupters.
When the hands are wide open , it means spending liberally money and wealths..
In contrast whith The hands chained to the neck means stinginess...
This action "to cut their hand" could have several meanings prevent the thiefs to steal, to spend what they have stollen and restitute what they have stollen.
Like "fakaffa aydiyahum/He restrained their hands from you" which doesn't imply a physical contact with their hands.Bashir
511 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Remember the Blessing of Allah. There were people who had aggressive designs against you but He withheld their hands from you. (Due preparation against danger is a strong deterrent (471), (860)). Remain mindful of Allah?s Laws. Then, in Allah let believers put their trust. -
It is not different. The hands in 538 are not to be taken as physical hands no more than the hands in 3845 and 3817 are physical hands. The story of Youssef provides a clear example of the punishment decreed in 538 on the thief.
538 is the only verse that tells us how to punish the thief . and it is crystal clear . 1275 is about joseph's time . the koran has replaced all the laws and scriptures . that is what i understand .
Do you take "hands" in 3845 and 3817 to be physical hands? Why or why not? Why should 538 be any different?
Please let us know.
Ayman
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Do you take "hands" in 3845 and 3817 to be physical hands? Why or why not? Why should 538 be any different?
Please let us know.
salam dear Ayman .
no i dont take "hands" in 3845 and 3817 to be physical hands .but just like verse 538 , the verses 2071 , 2649 , 533 , 7124 , 1231 all use the words "cut" and "hands" , and all of them mean physical hands . so why should 538 be any different ?
salam.
fahad. -
salam all.
?It goes as follow. Chance should be given to the thieves to come forward, acknowledge their crime, and give back what they have stolen to the victims. They might even get a reward. If they do not come forward, prove should be found who are the thieves. Thieves should then work to pay the fees involved for the whole thing. What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid.?http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm
According to the interpretation of the article at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm , if the thief has stolen an object worth 1000 dollars , he will work to repay the 1000 dollars to the owners.
But verse 1275 says no such thing
1274, "They said, "What is the punishment for the thief, if you are liars?"'
1275, "They said, "The punishment, if it is found in his bag, is that the thief belongs to you. We thus punish the guilty."'Malik They replied "The punishment of he in whose pack you find the royal cup will be to make him your bondsman, that's how we punish wrongdoers."
Pickthal They said The penalty for it! He in whose bag (the cup) is found, he is the penalty for it. Thus we requite wrongdoers.
Yusuf Ali They said "The penalty should be that he in whose saddle bag it is found should be held (as bondman) to atone for the (crime). Thus it is we punish the wrongdoers!"
the verse says that the thief belongs to owners . it doesn?t say that the thief works to repay them . and It does not say that the thief will be returned after he repays . it says that the thief belongs to the owners . period .
The article says ?What was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Otherwise, thieves should work for them until what they have stolen is repaid.?
But according to the verses EVEN IF THE STOLEN OBJECT IS FOUND , the thief belongs to the owners .
1275, "They said, "The punishment, IF IT IS FOUND IN HIS BAG, is that the thief belongs to you??
these are some big flaws and contradictions in the article . the arguments carry no weight . the moderators should remove the article from the website .
salam.