Death Penalty for Murders
-
Sorry I don't follow your question...mothers should not give birth what that go to do with gift of life from God?
if nobody has the right to take life except God then nobody,except God , has the right to give life either .
What is your point?
-
Would killing the murderer bring the deceased back to life TAJ?
If not what is the purpose of killing the murderer?salam Lotetree.
a murderer is not killed to bring back the deceased , but to carry out God's command .Carry out God's order?
Thats your understanding of God from your study of scripture. But to me that is unacceptable and that is why scripture is A TRUTH for me. This does not mean scripture is false but it is an interpretation of the wordless reality that is God. But I take it you take Scripture to be actual words of God and therefore you murder the murderer?. But my understanding of God goes beyond that of Scripture. An understanding that comes from my Reason, Intuition and imaginations.
If say Saladin, all European and majority of other countries do not have a death penalty. Does that mean that Human Morality advanced beyond God of the scripture?
Reality of God Saladin is far more complex that you can possibly obtain from scripture. It is when you go beyond scripture that you can have this insight...
Regards,
-
If say Saladin, all European and majority of other countries do not have a death penalty. Does that mean that Human Morality advanced beyond God of the scripture?
WHAT?!! would human morality advance by letting murderers run free ?!! that would be a decline in morality , not an advancement . see where your flawed "reason" is leading you ?
-
Peace all,
I think If the victim?s kin pardons the murderer, it is good but it is only upon the heir authority of the victim to pardon or not. This is valid for other crimes (545).
The individual is actor of the judicial system in his community and it is not upon the community to choose for him.2178 (Security of life is the cornerstone of a civilized society.) O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! QISAAS (The Law of Just Recompense) has been prescribed for you in dealing with murder. If a free person has committed murder, that free person will face the Law. If a slave has committed murder, that slave will face the Law. And if a woman has committed murder, that woman will face the Law. (The status of the victim or that of the offender, whether they are free men and women or those in bondage, will have no bearing before the Justice System). If the victim?s kin pardons the guilty, he must be appreciative and pay an equitable compensation to the kin in handsome gratitude. This pardon is a concession from your Lord and Mercy. Whoever, after this, trespasses this Law will have a painful doom (through the court of law and in the Court of Allah). (For full aspects please see (492-93), (532), (1733), (4240)).
2179 And there is life for you in the Law of Just Recompense, O People of understanding, that you may journey through life in security! (Hence, Qisaas is a deterring safeguard for the community and not revenge).
1733 You shall not kill any person, for Allah has made all life sacred, except in the course of justice through an appropriate court. In case of unjust killing, We have given rights to the victim?s family. With that right of retribution, comes the responsibility that since the law is helping them, they must not exceed the limits. (217, (532), (6152), (4240).
- And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
-
If say Saladin, all European and majority of other countries do not have a death penalty. Does that mean that Human Morality advanced beyond God of the scripture?
WHAT?!! would human morality advance by letting murderers run free ?!! that would be a decline in morality , not an advancement . see where your flawed "reason" is leading you ?
Murders don't run free they get punishment for their crime. But their life not taken by another human being.
Look Saladin eye for eye, tooth for a tooth, life for life is 6th century Arab morality. Human society has advanced since then. Eye for an eye morality makes the world go blind just like the majority of the Islamic societies. These societies tend to be more tyrannical and suffer from restriction of personal freedom and liberty. This is what you get when you follow scripture blindly, when take scripture to be the actual words of God instead of seeing as interpretation of the wordless reality that is God.
Can you see why Eurpean societies are more succesful? Because they don't have a backward mentality like yours...
Regards,
-
Peace upon you Lotetree, all
The rule of killing the murder can be seen as a rude old law not suited for these times. You are looking at this from your own perspective out of "your" mercy, .
But then, humans are inherantely ignorant and often go beyond limits. Thus in the law above, there is an upper limit, meaning you cannot for example kill all the family members of the killer for him killing one of your own. And evenmore, as underlined by marie, the god encourages us to forgive, for it is better.
Can you see the importance of such a rule? Can you feel the mercy of the most merciful in such a law?
On an other plan, I would like to know if you have read "al-quran", and if you did, do you know of anything that guides to which is better?
--
-
But then, humans are inherantely ignorant and often go beyond limits. Thus in the law above, there is an upper limit, meaning you cannot for example kill all the family members of the killer for him killing one of your own. And evenmore, as underlined by marie, the god encourages us to forgive, for it is better
Hello someone,
You understand your scripture better than Saladin. And you are right scripture is a GUIDE and you can argue quran is a very good guide but for me it is still a GUIDE. To forgive is better. This is absolutely right. To able to forgive is to kill part of your self. To erase the memory of the pain,
To let go of the heart ache and be free from hate. For hate poisons something in our self, it tarnishes the very soul of our lives. To forgive is better. Can you see how European societies taken this quranic principle and made it their ethos of their civilisation?Regards,
-
TAJ the problem I have with the death penalty is that sometimes people are covicted of crimes based on the evidence at the time, but latter when new evidence is uncovered they are proved innocent.
With a jail sentence, people who have been wrongly convicted can be cleared and released from jail. But with the death sentence such a mistake when uncovered can't not be undone.
Humans can make mistakes when judging people.... after all they are only human
So I feel those who are convicted of murder should be given rail sentences.
-
Salaams Albion,
You are right! With DNA tests some interns were found innocent. Marie's post brings the other option mentioned in the Quran. My point is that one should be responsible for their actions if it was proven beyond doubt that it was theirs. Sometimes the killer would confess of a crime he did not even commit!! So investigation is very crucial. Also some murderers would choose the death penalty because they cannot live with the guilt! To them prison is far worse than death.
-
Sorry I don't follow your question...mothers should not give birth what that go to do with gift of life from God?
if nobody has the right to take life except God then nobody,except God , has the right to give life either .
What is your point?
intellect not working , Lotetree ?
according to ur reasoning only God has the right to give life . so do u thnk mothers should not give life to children ? -
Thats your understanding of God from your study of scripture. But to me that is unacceptable and that is why scripture is A TRUTH for me.
scripture is a truth for you ?! scripture is a lie for you . which part of the scripture do u believe in ? you certainly dont believe in the words of the koran . what else is left in the koran to believe in ?
...This does not mean scripture is false but it is an interpretation of the wordless reality that is God.
wordless reality ? cant u be more straightforward ? u dont believe the koran to be the word of God ? why then do u call it a truth ?
-
wordless reality ? cant u be more straightforward ? u dont believe the koran to be the word of God ? why then do u call it a truth ?
I suggest Saladin you study the history and the nature of the religious experience from all around the world and in light of this knowledge read Quran again, then perhaps you will understand something of the "infinity" of God that created you and then you would realise that God is not the Quran but it is a GUIDE to understanding God... you will also understand that scripture is not important, scripture should not be idolised, only GOD is important. Just saying yes I believe in God is pointless. You have to work towards understanding something of this God in your life and your Universe. Just by saying I believe in God will not get you anywhere. You have to use your reason, intuitions and imaginations to grasp something of the Divine truth inside yourself. And just by saying I believe Scritpure will not get you anywhere either. But you have to understand the message. And the message is clear to me GOD is the most important thing and I need nothing else... my goal is now to develop better understanding of this God that created me through reason, intuitions, imaginations, meditations, reflection and contemplation...
I hope this helps...
Regards,
-
Peace LT n all,
Would killing the murderer bring the deceased back to life?
If not what is the purpose of killing the murderer?Khi- Lemme 1st ask u a qs. If somebodey brutally kills ur mother, sister, brothert or father wld u still think the same way tht death penalty shdnt be executed? Or wld u rather take the initiative 2 kill tht guy urself? In the Quran GOD did justice 2 both parties hence if a close person of urs is killed tht family is allowed/granted the right 2 get the murderer killed equally. Otherwise wheres the justice. Now 4 the most important pt. Death PEanlty is nothing but an illusion since GOD is the one who GIVES n TAKES LIFE. This is just a justification in the worldly sense. GOD can 4 eg cast forgiveness into the mind of the killed person's releatives so tht they wld let go off the killer anyway. So u see tht again it is entirely upoto GOD. U JUST CANNOT KILL ANYONE! NO, U CANNOT EVEN KILL URSELVES except if the time was already fixed by GOD. But i think it wld take some more time 4 u 2 understand this. GOD Bless!
-
salam Lotetree.
wordless reality ? cant u be more straightforward ? u dont believe the koran to be the word of God ? why then do u call it a truth ?
I suggest Saladin you study the history and the nature of the religious experience from all around the world and in light of this knowledge read Quran again,...
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
then perhaps you will understand something of the "infinity" of God that created you and then you would realise that God is not the Quran but it is a GUIDE to understanding God...
u consider the koran a guide ?!!! but u just discarded the verses of the koran ?!!! be straighforward Lotetree . which part of the koran do u consider a guide and "a" "truth" .?
my goal is now to develop better understanding of this God that created me through reason, intuitions, imaginations, meditations, reflection and contemplation...
what understanding ? what do u wanna understand about God that the koran does not inform us of ? have u read the koran ? have u read the attributes of God in the koran . what else do u wanna understand about God ? u take the contradictng religious experience from all around the world to understand God , but discard the koran !!!
-
Hello Saladin,
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
Come Saladin, don't despise reason. It was the Human Intellect that came to the notion of monotheistic God in the first place. Do you not recall Abraham?
-
Hello Saladin,
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
Come Saladin, don't despise reason. It was the Human Intellect that came to the notion of monotheistic God in the first place. Do you not recall Abraham?
i said "most of the religious experience" , not all . because most prefer to follow their desires .
by the way u havent answerd my questions . -
Salaams Albion,
You are right! With DNA tests some interns were found innocent. Marie's post brings the other option mentioned in the Quran. My point is that one should be responsible for their actions if it was proven beyond doubt that it was theirs. Sometimes the killer would confess of a crime he did not even commit!! So investigation is very crucial. Also some murderers would choose the death penalty because they cannot live with the guilt! To them prison is far worse than death.
I agree with some points TAJ raised here, and thanks sis Marie for the verses.
As always, in our discussions of legal punishments we always forget to discuss the nature of the act itself, which is murder (homicide) in this case. There are many degrees of homicide. I'll raise a contrast;
Suppose we consider five cases (examples of which are taken from recent news)
-
Terri Schiavo's husband who decides to stop life support for his wife.
-
A US soldier who shot a terminally wounded Iraqi in the head, which the soldier said was mercy killing (the Iraqi would die anyway from critical wounds)
-
A pensioner who shot dead a thief who was trying to break into his house
-
A militant directly involved in a bomb attack (making the bomb, detonating the bomb etc.) that claims the life of a lot of people (the scale of Madrid/Bali attack)
-
Someone who does not directly kill people but issues an order that result in a lot of murder (examples might include Milosevic, Rwandan Hutu leaders, Saddam, GWB, Osama)
Which of these cases deserve a Qisas punishment? Opinions please.
ps To LoteTree & Saladin Please take the off topic discussion to another thread. Let's stick with the murder punishment issue here.
-
-
Peace Andya Primanda,
As always, in our discussions of legal punishments we always forget to discuss the nature of the act itself, which is murder (homicide) in this case. There are many degrees of homicide.
Which of these cases deserve a Qisas punishment? Opinions please.You are right, there is several cases of murder and we have to consider the motivations and the circumstances.
For me there is 3 types
-
If one kills by mistake in a war, the duty could be a compensation paid to the victim's family unless they forgo it by way of charity....
-
If one kills to protect his life.
-
If one kills intentionally and unfairly
Only the third case deserve a Qisas punishment.
-
-
Hello Saladin,
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
Come Saladin, don't despise reason. It was the Human Intellect that came to the notion of monotheistic God in the first place. Do you not recall Abraham?
i said "most of the religious experience" , not all . because most prefer to follow their desires. by the way u havent answerd my questions .
How can I answer your question Saladin? You want to murder the murderer because you believe that God commands you to do. You go ahead and do it. Other poeples understanding of scripture is far superior than yours like the forum member "Someone". To forgive is better. Contemplate these words Saladin (in the true spirit of the historical Saladin) and reflect on these words using your reason, intuitions and imaginations then perhaps you will realise the great spiritual truth of these very simple words To Forgive is better!
Regards,