Mingling with the opposite sex ????
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Zeenat is not awrat only.
That is what I said in my post. The zeenat in 2431 can never be the attractive parts of a woman's body; in Islamic terms, it can never be her awra.
That is crystal clear.
But the traditionalist Muslim scholars have distorted God's words so that they will impose the headcover onto the Quran. So we are confused. You are confused.
So you claim that zeenat is "the face, the hair, forearms, calves, abdomen, breast and also possibly jewelry, make up, perfume etc."
No! Read my question again and this time please be nice enough to answer it
What does God allow the believing woman in 2431 to expose to her male attendants without need; her berasts or the gold chain she wears on them?
The ZEENAT in 2431 has to mean only one of these two the attractive parts of the woman's body which is her awra, or the jewelry she wears on them.
There is no third possibility.
According to Quran dictionaries "Awrat" is the "private parts or nakedness or nudity";
Awrat has another meaning in the Quran. Please refer to Chapter 33 verse 13. The hypocrites were unwilling to fight in God's cause so they asked leave of the Prophet, saying
"Behold, our houses are exposed (to attack)."
"Inna buyuutanaa awratun"So AWRAT also means exposed to threat. The houses of the hpocrites were not the attractive parts of a human being but exposed supposedly to plunder.
That is what awrat has to mean in 2431 so that indecency (faahesha) will be avoided.
God allows the believing woman to expose to her male attendants her gold necklace because those men are not in need of it. The gold necklace is not exposed to their envy or neither is it in danger of theft by them because it probably is the very birthday present they have given her. Why should they envy it or steal it?
What is more, they have to behave themselves because if they were not dependable enough, she would give them the sack.
But she is never allowed to expose to them her breasts, which are her awra. The zeenat in 2431 can never be the woman's breasts as you claim.
Peace,
Hasan -
oh obviously Dress should be taken seriously .... I mean ok follow it but do we have to see clothes ppl wear these days as negative? I mean wouldnt u call sleeveless and tight tops modest because the idea of modesty has changed now !? Modesty changes over many years ... so do u think Allah would regard this as modest because everyone wears these kind of clothes and dont see it as a big issue ..
Good point Ammar, Idea of Modesty changes over the years and so does the dress sense.... if it did not then we all be going around wrapped in loin cloths and dear-skins -)
Regards,
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Salaamun alaikum Hasan,
Brother Hasan, you are also conjecturing and presuming when you say men without need means those without need for jewelry. You have purposely avoided or ignored my arguments in my posts that prove that "zeenat" other than "ma zahara minha" cannot be only jewelry but has to be BOTH the physical attractive parts of the body that are normally hidden or covered AND the hidden jewelry.
Let's look at the ayat again step by step
2432 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent........
Here it is clear that "zeenat"="what is apparent"+"what is not apparent"
This part of the ayat allows women to expose to anyone that part of her "zeenat" that is "ma zahara minha". Can you please tell me what that "zeenat" is (which is "ma zahara minha") ? It has to be something that is apparent and not normally covered. IMO that includes jewelry too such as rings, ear rings, necklace etc. in addition to some physical parts of the body like the face, hair, neck, hands, feet, distal forearms, distal calves etc. and also the facial make-up, manicure etc., because all those "zeenat" are apparent. So it is clear that a woman can expose most of her jewelry to ANYONE because most of the jewelry is apparent.
Now the other part of the ayat
2432 ....................And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition (awrat) of women.
From this it is clear that now Allah is talking about the "zeenat" that is OTHER THAN "ma zahara minha" i.e. the "zeenat" that is NOT APPARENT because this "zeenat" can be shown to only a few categories of people and not to every one, as opposed to the "zeenat" that is "ma zahara minha" mentioned in the first part, which can be shown to everyone. What "zeenat" is this one which is NOT APPARENT ? It has to be the "hidden zeenat" that is normally hidden or covered by the woman. IMO it includes the "awrat" which is breast, groin region, hips, thighs, upper arms etc. in addition to the "hidden jewelry" (like some piercings). It has to include the "awrat" because Allah says that this "zeenat" can be exposed to the child who has not understood the "awrat" of the women. "Awrat" is defined as private parts of the body that are normally covered, it also means nakedness, nudity. So according to the context of the ayat, the men who are without need are clearly those who are without physical (sexual) need.
Jewelry like necklace, rings etc. has to be included in that "zeenat" which is apparent because it wraps around those body parts that are apparent like fingers, neck etc. How can it be included in the "hidden zeenat" that is NOT apparent ?
2432 ..................And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty.
This part of the ayat again talks about the same "hidden zeenat" that a women is not allowed to expose except to the few categories of people earlier mentioned. So this "zeenat" has to mean those physically attractive parts of a woman's body that are normally hidden or covered but can be accentuated by walking in a certain way or by striking feet in a certain manner.
3360 O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments. That is better so that they would be recognized and not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
In this ayat Allah is asking the believing women to hide some physically attractive parts of their body, i.e. their zeenat OTHER THAN "ma zahara minha", by wearing a loose outer garment (jilbab) that is long. The reason given is so that they are recognized as pious and righteous women and not harmed. You think that here Allah is asking women to wear "jilbab" to hide their jewelry??
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace Ammar,
oh obviously Dress should be taken seriously .... I mean ok follow it but do we have to see clothes ppl wear these days as negative? I mean wouldnt u call sleeveless and tight tops modest because the idea of modesty has changed now !? Modesty changes over many years ... so do u think Allah would regard this as modest because everyone wears these kind of clothes and dont see it as a big issue ..
726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to alleviate your sin, as well as feathers; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from God's signs, perhaps they will remember.
Allah has ordered us to wear garment of righteousness (modesty) and then also defined what He means by clearly giving the following rules
- Cover your private parts (genitalia)
- Cast a shawl over your bosoms
- Do not strike feet in a manner that accentuates the hidden physical beauty
- Lengthen upon yourself LOOSE OUTER GARMENT
So Allah defines what He means by modesty and we should take that seriously rather than making our own man-made evolutionary definitions of modesty following our desires. One should be careful of making one's ego and desires one's idols.
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
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oh obviously Dress should be taken seriously .... I mean ok follow it but do we have to see clothes ppl wear these days as negative? I mean wouldnt u call sleeveless and tight tops modest because the idea of modesty has changed now !?
salam ammar .
lets see what this situation is like its like men wearing something tight (condoms ops ) to hide their private part . while exposing all the shape and details . do u think that would be modest ?i dont like to give these kinds of examples , but i thought it would explain a thing or two .
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Brother Hasan, you are also conjecturing and presuming when you say men without need means those without need for jewelry.
I am doing it only in my commentary rather than in my translation. Translation is supposed to reflect what God says whereas commentary reflects what man thinks. The difference is the difference between God and man.
You have purposely avoided or ignored my arguments in my posts that...
Please, brother! You can never know my purpose until I announce it, and I have not announced it.
...prove that "zeenat" other than "ma zahara minha" cannot be only jewelry but has to be BOTH the physical attractive parts of the body that are normally hidden or covered AND the hidden jewelry.
And I have tried to explain that the "zeenat" in 2432 has to be only jewelry; otherwise indecency (faahesha) is imposed onto Islam. To prove my point I asked you this question
In 2432 what is God allowing the believing woman to expose to her male attendants without need; the attractive parts of her body such as her breasts or the jewelry she wears over them such as her necklace?
Although I expressly begged you to answer the question, you have ignoerd it, which proves that what I say is right. Otherwise, it would be possible for you to answer it and disprove my point.
Let's look at the ayat again step by step
2432 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent.........
There you go again! You are acting like a commentator in the guise of a translator. In the Arabic version of 2432 God does not say "their beauty"; He says "their zeenat".
Please allow me to withdraw from this debate; I can not carry it on like this.
Peace,
Hasan -
Peace Hasan,
And I have tried to explain that the "zeenat" in 2432 has to be only jewelry;
Just because you conjecture that it has to be jewelry? You need to give some solid evidence from Quran that it means jewelry.
Although I expressly begged you to answer the question, you have ignoerd it, which proves that what I say is right. Otherwise, it would be possible for you to answer it and disprove my point.
I have answered your question multiple times in both posts but you choose to ignore my answer. I will quote my answer to your question from my last post
So according to the context of the ayat, the men who are without need are clearly those who are without physical (sexual) need.
Even though I have clearly answered your question you still have not answered my questions which I will quote again
Can you please tell me what that "zeenat" is (which is "ma zahara minha") ?
What "zeenat" is this one which is NOT APPARENT ?
In 2432 TWO KINDS OF "ZEENAT" ARE MENTIONED
- "Zeenat" that is "ma zahara minha" which a woman is allowed to expose to ANYONE
- "Zeenat" that is OTHER THAN "ma zahara minha" which she is allowed to expose to only a few categories of people
Please explain exactly what these two types of "zeenat" are.
Most of the jewelry is APPARENT, so It is very obvious that the "zeenat" which is "ma zahara minha" (what is apparent) includes most jewelry which a woman is allowed to expose to ANYONE. I do not understand why you keep insisting on including most jewelry in the other type of "zeenat" which is NOT APPARENT because it is obvious that most jewelry is APPARENT.
The other type of "zeenat" that is NOT APPARENT has to include "awrat" because Allah allows a woman to expose her "hidden zeenat" to a child who has not yet understood the "awrat" of a woman. Such a child does not understand "awrat" so it is allowed to expose the "awrat" to such a child. So it is obvious that this other type of "zeenat" that is NOT APPARENT (the hidden zeenat) HAS TO INCLUDE THE "AWRAT" according to the context.
Therefore it becomes clear that the men without need HAVE TO BE WITHOUT PHYSICAL (SEXUAL) NEED because then the women can expose their "hidden zeenat" which includes the "awrat" to these kind of men without any fear of harm.
If the "hidden zeenat" means jewelry then why is Allah allowing women to expose it to the children without understanding of the "awrat"? If you are correct then the ayat should just have said "let them not show off their zeenat except to........... or children" and then your argument would have made perfect sense. The mention of "who has not yet understood the awrat of women" does not make sense if Allah is referring only to jewelry being the "hidden zeenat", as jewelry has nothing to do with "awrat".
There you go again! You are acting like a commentator in the guise of a translator. In the Arabic version of 2432 God does not say "their beauty"; He says "their zeenat".
Please stop making accusations against me. I did not translate the quoted translation but I was just quoting the translation done by progressivemuslims.org.
Quote
You have purposely avoided or ignored my arguments in my posts that...Please, brother! You can never know my purpose until I announce it, and I have not announced it.
You are twisting my words here. I was not talking about your PURPOSE. I was saying that you have INTENTIONALLY or PURPOSELY ignored my arguments in my posts and the reason I said that was because you did not answer my questions at all which would have proved my points.
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace Hasan, all,
And I have tried to explain that the "zeenat" in 2432 has to be only jewelry; otherwise indecency (faahesha) is imposed onto Islam.
I would like to clarify an important point, which can create a misunderstanding as in the above quote.
I never implied that a woman HAS to expose her physical beauty to all the mentioned categories of people in 2432. That indeed would be fahishatun (indecency).
All I said was that "zeenat" of a woman includes her physical beauty too. The God just gives a general permission for a woman to expose her zeenat to some specific categories of people. The God does not mention the details of that zeenat and therefore leaves it up to the woman and her modesty to determine what part of her zeenat to expose to whom.
Hope that clarifies things.