The Ultimate Qs: Do we have a free will or not?

Fahad1

salam.
what do u guys think about this article below , from
http//harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_05.php#4

THE TRUTH OF DESTINY

But you will not will unless Allah wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 7630)

As a result of experiments he performed in 1973, Professor Benjamin Libet, a neurophysiologist at the University of California, revealed that all our decisions and choices are set out beforehand, and that consciousness only comes into play half a second after everything has been determined.44 This is interpreted by other neurophysiologists as meaning that we actually live in the past and that our consciousness is like a monitor which shows us everything half a second later.

Therefore, none of the experiences we perceive are in real time, but are delayed by up to half a second from the real events themselves. Libet carried out his research by making use of the fact that brain surgery can be performed without the use of narcosis, in other words while the subject is fully conscious. Libet stimulated the brains of his subjects with small electrical currents, and when they experienced a perception that their hands had been touched the subjects said that they had felt that "touch" almost half a second before. As a result of his measurements, Libet arrived at the following conclusion All perceptions are normally transmitted to the brain. As these are subconsciously evaluated and interpreted, the ego is unaware of anything. The information that appears before our minds, in other words that we can be aware of, is transmitted to the cortex, the seat of consciousness, after a certain delay.45

The conclusion from this may be summarised as follows The decision to move a muscle takes place before that decision reaches the consciousness. There is always a delay between a neurological or perceptual process and our becoming aware of the thought, feeling, perception or movement it represents. To put it another way, we can only be aware of a decision after that decision has been taken.

In Professor Libet's experiments, this delay varies between 350 and 500 milliseconds, although the conclusion that emerges is in no way dependent upon those figures. Because, according to Libet, whatever the length of that delay-it makes no difference whether it is great or small, whether it lasts an hour or a microsecond-our material life is always in the past. This demonstrates that every thought, emotion, perception or movement happens before reaching our consciousness, and that proves that the future is entirely outside our control.46

In other experiments, Professor Libet left the choice of when the subjects would move their fingers up to them. The brains of the subjects were monitored at the moment their fingers moved, and it was observed that the relevant brain cells went into action before the subjects actually took the decision. To put it another way, the command "do!" reaches the individual, and the brain is readied to perform the action; the individual only becomes aware of this half a second later. He or she does not take a decision to act and then performs that action, but rather performs an action predetermined for him or her. Yet, the brain makes an adjustment, removing any recognition that the individual is actually living in the past. For that reason, at the moment we refer to as "now," we are actually living something determined in the past. As already discussed, these studies manifest the fact that everything happens by the will of Allah, as revealed in Surat al-Insan 30.

jonny_k

Salam Saladin,
Well ive heard these arguments of neurology be4. However i cannot agree with this since tht wld mean we do not have a free will 2 decide if everything's predetermined. This wld contradict the Quranic verse where GOD says tht He doesnt wrong anyone but tht ppl wrong themselves. Thus it is difficult 4 me 2 accept this. Neirologists also argue tht everything in the brain operates according 2 'natural laws'. Thus we r nothing but machines n everything tht we do or say is merely by chance n not by our own choice. I recently thght of an experiment which cld prove or disprove this. . I call it 'the ten finger experiment'. In this experiment a person sits behind a glass wall n his brain is scanned by PET(Positron Electron Tomography). Hes then asked 2 raise any one finger from his two hands. The PET has been prepared as 2 allocate a pattern in his brain 4 each finger which he raises. If now the testers sitting outside can tell half a second or so in advance which finger the person behind the glass wall is going 2 raise n it almost always turns out 2 be right only then can we say tht it all happens be4hand. Until now this has never been shown. Ive heard ppl say tht the brain of a sick person was stimulated by electric currents n then he raised a hand n claimed tht he raised it out of his own free will while tht was an outside stimulation. However this is sinmilar 2 for example when an ant or a small insect tickles me on the back n i raise my hand 2 scratch tht area. Id claim tht i did it of my free will when it was the ant tht led me 2 do it. Hence this kind of experiment doesnt prove anything. 'The ten finger experiment' hoever wld not leave any doubts. GOD Bless!

ayman

Peace all,

I think that most of the misconceptions about "free will" result from our narrow perception that time is linear. There is evidence from the great reading that time is not linear but is multi-dimensional. This would resolve the paradox of the future being known while we have free-choice. Please see

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/freechoice.htm

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/straight_path.htm

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

unknownuser

We can also conclude that each person has the freedom to choose the path to take but have no control over what outcome this path will lead to. The God knows all the possible paths, the outcome of the path he/she chooses, and the outcomes of all the other paths that were not chosen.

Hello Ayman,

I have managed to read your first article. I undertand your tree and branches analogy.

We are free to choose the branches.

But does God know which branches WE will choose?

If he does then perhaps our choices are meaningless. One can follow the argument to the begining. If God knew I was destined for hell why create me in the first place? If God knowingly created me for hell, then did I ulitmately have a choice?

Can you clarify this...
Thanks.

Regards,

Andya_Primanda

The misconception is that God somehow must know only one outcome of our actions.

I believe that God, All-Knowing as God is, knows every outcome of every branch we would take.

At least that's how I try to reconcile the issue of free will vs determinism.

unknownuser

I believe that God, All-Knowing as God is, knows every outcome of every branch we would take.

I understand God knows all the OUTCOMES of every branch, but does he know which branches WE will choose? This is different from knowing all outcomes of the branches I think...

Regards,

jonny_k

I understand God knows all the OUTCOMES of every branch, but does he know which branches WE will choose? This is different from knowing all outcomes of the branches I think...

Regards,

Khi- Salam. Since GOD is all knowing n is independant of time He obviously knows which branches we wld choose. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Khi- Salam. Since GOD is all knowing n is independant of time He obviously knows which branches we wld choose. GOD Bless!

If he does then perhaps our choices are meaningless. One can follow the argument to the begining. If God knew I was destined for hell why create me in the first place? If God knowingly created me for hell, then did I ulitmately have a choice?

Regards,

jonny_k

If he does then perhaps our choices are meaningless. One can follow the argument to the begining. If God knew I was destined for hell why create me in the first place? If God knowingly created me for hell, then did I ulitmately have a choice?

Khi- Salam. Thts simply coz U DO NOT KNOW UR CHOICE AS YET. If now on the day of judgement GOD just puts u in hell coz He knew ur choices but never let u carry them out in life u cld compalin 'Oh GOD y did u put me in hell when i did nothing wrong'. So ur existance here is 2 prove it 2 U tht ur righteous or not. GOD DOESNT NEED 2 KNOW UR CHOICES, U DO! N yes the choice is still urs. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

So ur existance here is 2 prove it 2 U tht ur righteous or not. GOD DOESNT NEED 2 KNOW UR CHOICES, U DO! N yes the choice is still urs. GOD Bless!

But that does not answer my question does it? Why create me if God knew I was "destined" for hell? There is no need for the creation is it? There is no need for me to exist at all and there would be no need to complain at all because I would not have existed...

Regards,

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum all,

I believe that Allah is Just and Merciful and All Knowledgeable. I also believe that we have free will to choose our actions. Now if Allah already knew that some humans would end up in Hell before He created them and they will eternally remain in Hell then that would imply an unmerciful God. So logically only 3 things are possible

He chose not to know the outcome before He created.....this again implies an unmerciful God as explained below
He knows all the possible outcomes but does not know exactly which branch we will choose......this implies a God that is not all knowing.
He knows our outcome and then in the end all those who go to Hell will suffer exactly equal to what their sins were and then the suffering will end......this does not contradict with The God being Just, Merciful, and All Knowing with us still having free will to choose our actions.

Possibility number one is flawed and not supported by any evidence from Al-Quran. If The God chose not to know the outcome before He created us then after He created us He would know what our outcome would be and that some humans would end up in Hell forever and that again makes Him unmerciful unless He terminated the evil ones before they performed their actions.

Possibility number 2 implies a God that is not knowledgeable of everything and would contradict a lot of ayat. But what if the absolute certain knowledge of a random event is not possible? The God may see the future and find out the outcome but if He sees the future again the outcome might be different because the choices made by humans are random events (free will implies randomness). This is analogous to a program on a spreadsheet based on a random number generator. Each time we run the program it can have a different outcome. We can travel in time and see what the outcome was of a certain run but if we came back and ran the program again at a slightly different time the result could be different. So Allah may know all the possible outcomes and in that sense He is All Knowing but the exact outcome might not be known unless the actual program is run and followed to the end.

The following ayat seem to imply that Allah does not know exactly what we will choose to do

3143 Or did you think that you would enter Paradise without God knowing those who would strive amongst you and knowing those who are patient?
917 Or did you think that you would be left alone? God will come to know those of you who strived and did not take other than God and His messenger and the believers as helpers. God is Expert in what you do.
293 While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.

but then there is an apparent contradiction with the following ayat which clearly say that Allah knows our present and future

2255 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes.
20108 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge.
2129 He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And they stand in awe and reverence of Him.
2275 He knows their present and their future. And to God all matters are returned.

One actual example of Him knowing the future is

1112 Condemned is the hand of Abu-Lahab; condemned indeed.
1113 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1114 He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
1115 And his wife who carries the logs.
1116 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.

One way the above two sets of ayat can be reconciled is that even though He knows our future, meaning all the possible future outcomes, all the actions have not actually happened yet and Allah wants to know with absolute certainty what action we will choose to do. But that still leaves us with some imperfection in Allah's attribute of All Knowledgeable. May be that is how it is, that absolute certain knowledge of random events is impossible and that there are different possible time lines that exist and no one can know which time line will be the actual time line that will be played out until it is actually played out. The Abu-Lahab example is after he had already made his choice. Maybe Allah does not know with absolute certainty what choice we will make but He does know with absolute certainty if we will change our decision once we have made it.

For the third possibility please see Edip Yuksel's enlightening article at the following link

http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/hell.htm

Here Edip shows the difference between eternal Hell and Hell eternally !! and proves that Hell is not eternal.

In the end only Allah knows !!!

Peace,

Tanveer

ayman

Peace LT,

I understand God knows all the OUTCOMES of every branch, but does he know which branches WE will choose? This is different from knowing all outcomes of the branches I think...

According to my study of the great reading, choices are made in the present not in the future. Therefore the issue of "will choose" is not meaningful. Relative to the present, the future is the domain of outcomes. On a universal level, which future outcome materializes after one instant is the result of the choices made by every creature in the universe in the present instant. We all have a choice and we all should serve The God.

From the great reading we know that The God guides us (in the present) to which branch to choose or He doesn't guide us (in the present) to which branch to choose. The God's decision to guide or not guide is not predestined. So the question is what causes us to make a correct choice. Think about it, what would allow you to always make the correct choice?

Of course the answer is knowing the future. If you knew all the future outcomes then you would select the best one and avoid the choices leading to bad ones. For example, you would select the winning lottery ticket. The reason why we don't always make the right choices is becasue we are ignorant of the future.

Ultimately for us, all future outcomes converge to either heaven or hell. If one can see the hidden future and see himself in hell then he would not make the choices that got him there. Instead, he would make the choices that result in the outcome of heaven.

The God created us to serve him. This is the purpose that The God intended for us. Therefore, The God's purpose for our creation entails that we make the right choices. As we saw, the reason why we make the incorrect choices is our ignorance. If we had all the information then we would always make the correct choice and we would be in sync with the purpose for which The God created us.

So the question is not about The God's knowledge, which is absolute. The paradox occurs as a result of our own ignorance. This is why the human is described as ignorant for accepting the trust. Fulfilling the trust is about overcoming our ignorance of the future through trust in The God.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

jonny_k

But that does not answer my question does it? Why create me if God knew I was "destined" for hell? There is no need for the creation is it? There is no need for me to exist at all and there would be no need to complain at all because I would not have existed...

Regards,

Khi- As i said only if ur created will u knowthe path which ull choose. If ur just thrown into Hell without being given a chance of recognizing urself u wld have every riight 2 compiain n GOD is just. As far as 2 y does GOD create anything at all i can only give u the answer from Quran i.e. 2 worship/serve Him. Also u shld understand tht GOD is not time bound n it is like Hes already seen all the events. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

As far as 2 y does GOD create anything at all i can only give u the answer from Quran i.e. 2 worship/serve Him.

What's the point of knowingly creating individuals that do not serve him?

Regards,

salikahDC

What's the point of knowingly creating individuals that do not serve him?

Regards,

What's the point of trying to make the God subject to such "logical" thinking?

unknownuser

What's the point of knowingly creating individuals that do not serve him?

Regards,

What's the point of trying to make the God subject to such "logical" thinking?

So that we may develop some understanding of what God is?

Regards,

neo

An omniscient god does not allow for free will.

/fin

unknownuser

An omniscient god does not allow for free will.

You have grasped what "omniscient" means! Humanity has spent centuries to reconcile this with Free Will but to no avail. The fact is humanity will not be able to reconcile this without rejecting ominiscience...

Regards,

savage_carrot

Peace Lotetree,

Humanity has spent centuries to reconcile this with Free Will but to no avail. The fact is humanity will not be able to reconcile this without rejecting ominiscience...

It's not free will but free choice and there is no problem in reconciling that with an ominiscient God...now, God is all knowing...His knowledge is absolute/complete...if the problem is how can a 'merciful' God allow us to have choices in which we choose all by ourselves the wrong path...then maybe we need to discuss that and not reject God's omniscience which is according to the scripture absolute...He is the knower of everything...that includes, er, everything...

Nadia

unknownuser

Hello Nadia,

Peace Lotetree,

Humanity has spent centuries to reconcile this with Free Will but to no avail. The fact is humanity will not be able to reconcile this without rejecting ominiscience...

It's not free will but free choice and there is no problem in reconciling that with an ominiscient God...now, God is all knowing...His knowledge is absolute/complete...if the problem is how can a 'merciful' God allow us to have choices in which we choose all by ourselves the wrong path...then maybe we need to discuss that and not reject God's omniscience which is according to the scripture absolute...He is the knower of everything...that includes, er, everything...

Nadia

Can you please clarify the difference between Free Will and Free Choice?

Thanks.

Regards,