Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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Here's what I wrote
You can speak all you want about Freedom and Personal Liberty, but how do you live by such principles?
You can speak all you want about Freedom and Personal Liberty, but how do you live by such principles? Aren?t there not rules and standards that governs everyone?s lives? If yes, then who is governing you to live by such standards? If not, then you couldn?t possibly be living in an uninhabited jungle or an unknown planet without any bearings whatsoever. I sincerely doubt that you understand the gist of Freedom or Personal Liberty when it comes to simply Speaking Your Mind out.
And here?s what you acknowledged
...my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced
Now what is there to argue about LoteTree?
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Hello Idries,
peace be upon you Lotetree,
I have come to this realisation recently Idris and wasn't that a surprise to me!!!! -) The Word of God in Arabic Tongue and even Arab themselves need translations thats very ironic! -)
languages evolve over time, you and I prolly wouldn't be able to understand old English from the 17th century very well so it makes sense that Arabs wouldn't be able to understand Arabic from the 7th century nearly at all
Yes, Language evolves over time. That is a good point. And all our languages have been human inventions. But scripture is said to be God's Eternal Word, outside of time and therefore the meaning should not change should it? If it changes then it is not eternal is it?
Yes, you can say that. But this man and Edip Yuksel have spent their whole life breathing every nuances of the Classical Arabic! So I say they have a slight advantage over ordinary people, I think -)
im not sure if Rashad and Edip spent their whole life but they did and have spent many years, but the problem is that Rashad was still influenced by the Sunni interpretation and kept a lot of those views in mind while translating, the thing is no matter how many people suscribe to a view and what their merits were and no matter how long it took to come up with it, it doesn't escape being reasonably verified
I understand what you say. But the point I was making is that they know more about the language than me as an ordinary person because they spent more than 20 years on it and able to read the Classical Arabic language. Also Edip Yuksel is still alive so I will able to ask about his Reformist translations when it comes out.
You say this because you know my arguments on FREEDOM and LIBERTY are valid! Convince me Idris, why my faith in FREEDOM and LIBERTY is MISPLACED. If you can convince then I will pack my bags today and go and live under an oppressive government -)
i have no problem with liberty and freedom, neither does anybody in this thread from what i've seen, the problem is liberty must always have limits so as not to intrude on the freedom and rights of others and society as a whole, have you read Layth's book "The Natural Republic"?
But when people say liberty and freedom are "slogans" Idris as mquran does, then I am unable to accept that. I understand limits of liberty and freedom. But it is my view that we should have the FREEDOM and LIBERTY but we should be responsible for our actions to ourselves and to the society that we live in. This is FREEDOM with RESPONSIBILITY and not FREEDOM without RESPONSIBILITY. FREEDOM and LIBERTY should be celebrated and not derided...
Thanks for your advice Idris. Do you speak Arabic yourself?
no but I do try to use dictionaries, the root, grammer, etc. to translate it to the best of my abilities and not to mention the most important using reason and the methods of interpreting this reading (quran) provided by itself to come to a conclusion...
But what if your conclusions contradicts others? How do you resolve that?
For example latest translations of Progressive Muslim of the verseThey ask you regarding the spoils of war, Say ?The spoils of war are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
mquran say this is either "additional benefits" or "profit". The literal translation is Gift/Spoils. If you put all these in the verse
- They ask you regarding the Additional Benefits, Say ?Additional Benefits" are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Does not make sense to me
- They ask you regarding the PROFITs, Say ?PROFITSs" are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Better still but why all profit for God and messenger? -Does not make sense to me
- They ask you regarding the GIFTS, Say ?GIFTS" are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Definately incorrect - Does not make sense to me
- They ask you regarding the spoils of war, Say ?The spoils of war are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
This does make sense to me, in the historical, linguistical context of the English language and the surah's context
As a non-translator Idris this makes sense to me - spoils. But spoils only makes sense in the context of war.
Do the words "war" have to be in a sentence for us to understand the sentence refers to War?
"Creative Translations" is not being TRUTHFUL to the original meaning of the sentence.
OK Idris, since you say it, it must be right!
Are you an expert on Classical Arabic Idris?no but all you need to do to come to the translation of a word is a set of good dictionaries, the root, and the context of the reading as a whole to come to a conclusion of a word and he is right from my knowledge, but i knew u would comment on the underlined part, thats what I said it to kind of mock your position on the translation
But you could have said Idries that mquran translation has more validity for YOU instead of saying it was correct in the first place -)
It is unlikely Idries, that I will be able to master Classical Arabic even if I study it day and night nor will able to chase after root words for the meaning. Therefore ordinary person like me has no choice but to rely on people who are expert on translations and Classical Arabic. There is no way out for us. mquran lost his credibility for me as a translator because he don't trust his reason. That is why I am waiting for Edip Yuksels Reformist Translation... Do you understand what I am getting at Idries?
Regards,
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Look Danish I have lived under an oppressive government where my freedom to speak my mind was denied. If you think my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced, then please put foward your argument to convince me that I should go back and live under the oppressive government that I have left behind. If you can convince me then I would happily go back and live there
Above is what I wrote.
And here?s what you quoted from above
LoteTree wrote
...my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced,and this is what you said!
Hmm, I thought so too.
So where is your argument against FREEDOM and LIBERTY?
But lets end this it is not going anywhere....
Cheers
Regards,
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Yes, Language evolves over time. That is a good point. And all our languages have been human inventions. But scripture is said to be God's Eternal Word, outside of time and therefore the meaning should not change should it? If it changes then it is not eternal is it?
This is correct. The meaning of al-quraan shouldn't change and upon establishment of its internal principles, it doesn't. Despite 1400 YEARS of crap being shovelled over its message, we can still access it if only we read according to how it tells us.
Of course, if our criteria is 'but he's an arab, his translation must be right' and 'he studied classical arabic all his life' and 'he's made a REFORMIST translation' (a translation SHOULD be neutral, neither conservative or reformist) and so on, then we're not exactly reading al-quraan how it tells us. How then can we accuse it of not fitting in to these gloriously modern times , where murder has become more efficient by millionfold?
It is unlikely Idries, that I will be able to master Classical Arabic even if I study it day and night nor will able to chase after root words for the meaning. Therefore ordinary person like me has no choice but to rely on people who are expert on translations and Classical Arabic. There is no way out for us. mquran lost his credibility for me as a translator because he don't trust his reason. That is why I am waiting for Edip Yuksels Reformist Translation... Do you understand what I am getting at Idries?
Since you don't intend to learn the language, how on earth can you verify for yourself ? Through the ethnic origin of the translators ? Wow, I have to say, even sunnis dont go down this route. And this morally advanced guy of the 21st century with all calls to rationalism is doing this ? Not doing rationalism any favours, are we?
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Salaams All,
'The meaning of 'Al Anfal' has been the center of debate for as long as there had been history books (Arabic history books)!
Now those who have translated the word 'Al Anfal' as the 'spoils of war', they didn't do any work except take what some history books said. What did some of the history books say about it? They said that the whole Surah of 'Al Anfal'was actually about the famous Battle of Bader and that it was even called 'The Surah of Bader'! The story goes that some of the Mujahedeen (Fighters for the sake of Allah) argued about how to share the spoils, so they went asking Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The answer came from Allah starting with this Ayah They ask you regarding the spoils of war..Books which were concerned about the linguistic side said that 'Al Anfal' cannot be limited to one historical event The Battle of Bader. And since the Quran is timeless, 'Al Anfal' can be applied at any time and to many different situations especially when the word 'Al Anfal' literally means extra things, more than one needs, or what one volunteers, or fortunes or lands or places that have no known owner.
I don't know about 'Additional Benefits', or 'Profits' or 'Gift' though! Maybe what Brother MQuran means by 'Gift' is Qurban! Like when one donates something as a Qurban LeEllah something that one would give in order to be closer and get acceptance from Allah.
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peace be upon you Lotetree,
here are two threads on this forum that have discussed this topic in the past, I think they might give you some insight on chapter 8 as they did for me http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1042&highlight=spoils
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=938 -
So where is your argument against FREEDOM and LIBERTY?
But lets end this it is not going anywhere....
Fantastic!!! I promise it is going to end soon. But don?t sweat and get sidetracked and go off-tangent mate, I?ve yet to accomplish the ?argument? part that you so desire and have the forum members to witness for themselves. I misquoted your sentence ?INTENTIONALLY? to TEACH YOU A LESSON that you requested by the very game you play. Patience lad, you?re on ?check? and soon to be ?check-made? (EXPOSED), if you know the rules of chess. wink
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Greetings,
Yeah it invites all faiths including athiests, but to what? DUH! Read again
and don't just blab....erm to discuss GOD and RELIGION FREELY, duh!!! -)
Hmmm... you really don't read well... Check it out again...
"This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone."
Understood? The point is not to discuss God, although that could be discussed anyway, but the system of Submission/Islam based on God Alone. That's the focus of invitation.
In any case, you only see things as you wish and go on debating with people, instead of understanding what they meant and then proceding to debate it, ... duh! )
You must QUESTION EVERYTHING FOR YOU TO BE FREE-MINDS!
And who the hell are you to tell me this? If I didn't question, then I would follow any Tom, Dick or Harry, or I would start worshiping you!
Anwar AzimI told you so that WE CAN ALL FREELY SAY "And who the hell are you to tell me this?" -)
Regards,
No further comments, unless I choose to. That's my freedom to choose and it is I who is to excercise it. )
Anwar Azim
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Peace
I wish peace and salvation to all...
there are a lot of examples that seemingly indicates that not all of the Book`s details are directed to all the people of all the times....i would like to be proven otherwise by those who believe that all the details are stricly applying to all communities, other then original arab recipients....I could surely be wrong and those examples may not stay valid upon exposition of a more correct translation or more appropriate cross- referencing, understanding or whatever....
Here`s one for a start....
In 492 the believers are ordered, if it happens that one of them kill another by chance, that his duty is to pay "blood-money" AND to free a slave(or whatever i am not 100% sure of the corectness of that transaltion)...
However the precise amount is not decreed(correct me if i am wrong) and it is seemingly presumed or understood that the original recipients already know the exact amount that is to be paid, and imo this is a potential indicator that all the book`s details are only for a certain cultural milieu or community...and that its general principles might be diferently elaborated or applied into life in different cultures or circumstances
best wishes
Zlatan
any takers?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Also mq and others, where`s the list of ashurul hurumu/rstricted/sacred/forbiden months/fool moons/ or whatever?
in 9/36-38 the practice of declaring some "ashuru/months/or whatever" as not forbiden is condemned as desacrating or allowing what The God has made sacred/forbiden/restricted...
However, where The God has made these things forbiden/restricted/sacred? Surely not in the 'Quran'...at least not in any translation available...
these problems might be signs that the book is intended only for a certain social milieu, culture, time or similar, or the sign of incompletenss of the scripture...and the later is almost the same as former ... a mere variant of it...
best wishes, Zlatan
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Salaamun alaikum Zlatan,
Also mq and others, where`s the list of ashurul hurumu/rstricted/sacred/forbiden months/fool moons/ or whatever?
in 9/36-38 the practice of declaring some "ashuru/months/or whatever" as not forbiden is condemned as desacrating or allowing what The God has made sacred/forbiden/restricted...
However, where The God has made these things forbiden/restricted/sacred? Surely not in the 'Quran'...at least not in any translation available...There is no 'list of months', that's up to those in power. As for 'what the God has made forbidden', you seem to have forgotten the word 'iddat' there or number. Allah has made the iddat of haraam months as 4.
these problems might be signs that the book is intended only for a certain social milieu, culture, time or similar, or the sign of incompletenss of the scripture...and the later is almost the same as former ... a mere variant of it...
Prior to this, you have mentioned that you've made mistakes before. So it's possible that your current perception may be erroneous now. How do WE know YOU'RE not wrong, please ?
mq i would like if you could adress some of my questions posed at the thread above
Would you mind cutting and pasting the questions so I know which ones specifically, please ?
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salaamun alaikum mq!
Salaamun alaikum Zlatan,
There is no 'list of months', that's up to those in power.
how do you mean theres no list? i dont think i have understood you..can you explain more?
there are certain ashuru/months/whatever where it is forbiden for us to fight...right? and you are telling me now we do not know when these months are?
arent this telling you these restrictions are not meant for us?
best wishes
Zlatan
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Salaam Mujahid !
these problems might be signs that the book is intended only for a certain social milieu, culture, time or similar, or the sign of incompletenss of the scripture...and the later is almost the same as former ... a mere variant of it...
Prior to this, you have mentioned that you've made mistakes before. So it's possible that your current perception may be erroneous now. How do WE know YOU'RE not wrong, please ?
i dont know....i dont claim i am 100% right or right at all...btw i wasnt mentioning my errors alone... but those of other as well....which maybe may not occur was it not for 'the fact' that Quran`s application is culturaly conditioned...
mq i would like if you could adress some of my questions posed at the thread above
Would you mind cutting and pasting the questions so I know which ones specifically, please ?
There are few questions in the first post to begin with? i would rather not to repeat the whole post because it might be contra policy of this site and i feel the questions would lost the proper context and meanings if i am to single them out of the post?.. ?.the post is relatively short? i would like you to read the whole of the first post under the link together with the questions within it before answering ?.
Best wishes , Zlatan
p.s. also try to find the answer to the ransom/blood-pay question and a misterious absence of it being defined
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how do you mean theres no list? i dont think i have understood you..can you explain more?
there are certain ashuru/months/whatever where it is forbiden for us to fight...right? and you are telling me now we do not know when these months are?
arent this telling you these restrictions are not meant for us?
It all depends on when you begin the peace treaty. If al-quraan was meant for the career of the prophet alone, then yes, a specific set of months is necessary.
Of course, if we all just sit in cyberspace, we will not experience the ayaat for ourselves and of course it wont apply to us. Should we then blame al-quraan ?
Are you telling that those in power should decide which month is forbidden/haram and which is not?
After they have subdued the mischief makers, yes.
i dont know....i dont claim i am 100% right or right at all...btw i wasnt mentioning my errors alone... but those of other as well....which maybe may not occur was it not for 'the fact' that Quran`s application is culturaly conditioned...
Your inference that al-quraan's application is 'culturally conditioned' may be an error as well, correct ? In fact, in 1999 you were very much pro-19, right? It was in ropelist and I remember having to post you the same sort of questions about criteria. The following year, you became the foremost anti-19er in cyberspace. So how we know this is not one of your 'change of hearts' ?
There are few questions in the first post to begin with i would rather not to repeat the whole post because it might be contra policy of this site and i feel the questions would lost the proper context and meanings if i am to single them out of the post.. .the post is relatively short i would like you to read the whole of the first post under the link together with the questions within it before answering
Ok, i'll do that, but since i've already answered your previous questions, perhaps you'll do me the courtesy (if that's also applicable in your new set of ahkaam) of answering my questions
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Is there any evidence from al-quraan that any part of it is suited only to a certain culture? If there is, bring it forward please.
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How do you find out about 'certain cultural conditions'. Please give me your source documentation and the proof that this source documentation is authentic. What determines your criteria of authenticity.
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Which laws are specifically repugnant to you ? How did you arrive at that conclusion that it was THOSE laws specifically which are repugnant and not any other laws? Do you expect everyone to have the same criteria of repugnance ?
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in 9/36-38 the practice of declaring some "ashuru/months/or whatever" as not forbiden is condemned as desacrating or allowing what The God has made sacred/forbiden/restricted...
Peace
It seems that i havent throroughly enough pay attention to some of the grammar details of 936-38
What is ?hu? in yuhilloonahu wa yuharrimoonahu(9/37) reffering to? To ?an-nasiiu? or to some of the ashuru/months/moons individually(i wonder is this rendering gramaticaly possible at all?-cause theres no mention of individual month/moon previously)or to something else?
I am also confused about the gender of shahr and/or ashuru? in 9/36 by reffering to it with feehinna it seems its gender is feminine?however from 2217 it may be inferred that its masculine?
p.s.
All that i can conclude that its very hard to follow and understand the document in the language you do not understand?.?Quran? which is supposed to be clear, (some also say easy), guiding and unifying book seems( i surely might be wrong) to be quite an opposite?unclear, vague, hard to understand, misdirecting, dividing and all that solely because we have no good translation available?.and this is one of the reasons for considering it not intended for our time?at leats not all of its details?.
Best wishes, Zlatan
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Zlatan, your refusal to answer my questions shows me what an utter fraud you are
You know as well as I do , Allah tells us to judge according to the book and not follow our base desires (5/48 ). He did not tell us to wipe out bits from his book and call it 'irrelevant except for a specific cultural milleu'. If He did, He would have said so. He uses words like 'arab' , 'arab of the desert' , 'except what is past' etc but funnily doesn't use them in these cases.
I try my best not to be so arrogant to try to teach God about His book. If I were also on one side of the 19 issue in one year and became a fanatical anti-19er the following year , I would not presume that I know it all either. I have my own experience about this fanaticism when I was fanatical about Hajj in Mecca. Boy did God teach me a lesson a few years after shock These days, I just try to calm down and trust the book.
Aside from this forbidden months issue, which should be on a seperate thread, I havent got everything worked out but how I know that that's the books fault ? How much time I do spend studying AND PRACTISING the book ? However, the beauty of the book is, it tells me to continously seek more information from my Rabb (20/114). It doesn't tell me to dismiss certain portions of the book because I think I'm too clever for it. Even worse, when I've done nothing for the deen and am a practising virtua-muslim instead of one who is practising iqaamudeen in real life.
Having said all this, anyone is free to believe anything they choose. If you want to tear out certain pages, that's up to you. No one can know if you're doing it sincerely or otherwise except Allah.