Quran's shariah and it's applicability
-
Peace Lotetree,
So does majority of people here!
The majority of people here look at the different translations and choose the ones that suits their reasoning imo...maybe you see differently?
That what I said in order to understand it I must learn Biblical Hebrew, Archaic Greek and Ancient Sankscrit for me to resolve this. But I say to how many of you are capable of this? Not many apart from scholars who have made a lifetime study of these languages. All we can do is rely on "best" possible translations. But tell me Nadia - how do you decide if a translation is good or bad without knowing the original language?
The words to note are IF you see a CONTRADICTION...not just blindly judge the worth of two different translations...after all when you compare translators u compare on the basis of how ACCURATE they are to the ORIGINAL majorly that is if you want to resolve and deduce contradictions...for a sunday night in front of the fire read no one is asking you to tell whether they are good or bad.
Nadia I think you misunderstood. This is not about more. Let me try to clarify again. If all the translators translated the word "apples" to "apples" and then mquran translated it as "oranges" - which do you go for without understanding the original language? Can you not see, this is not about more but accuracy of translation of a particular word. In science when more people say the same thing then it is accepted as having more validity. But if you want me to accept the word to be "oranges" then I would like to see more people agreeing to "oranges"
You should be asking WHY, trying to verify and using your God given reason as to why and how is this dude doing it differently not just wanting to see more people agree...in science people do tend to look at WHY rather than can't we all just get along please?
This is good Nadia, perhaps you should try your luck with script writing!
Just kiddinGlad you approve... )
Hey Nadia, that was my point to mquran. For Quran has been with us for 1400 hundred years and its has been so far been mere...erm perhaps not
It's useless to people who insist on their own ways or those wandering around searching for that voice to tell them they are chosen...not just the quran, them pretty useless declarations of human peace as well..they have always been with us in some form or the other...For God not guiding the people equally through the ages is a travesty...
...erm for example we don't burn witches anymore so all those witches out there you are now safe! In many countries we don't chop peoples heads for speaking their mind, so those who want to speak your mind then speak your mind! In many countries we don't practice death penalty as a punishment as a scoiety, etc, etc, the world has brought the nazies to justice, the world is bringing serbians to justice, the world is bringing pinoche to justice.... etc etc... and list goes on... if this is not evidence for evolved consciouness then what is...
erm for example now we burn them pagan heathen 'witches' in hiroshima and nagasaki? Are we imprisoning people still and taking away their liberties in a fate worse than death? The difference i see that things are happing on a glabal scale and not those fuzzy nice things either...these things have always been happening its like a pattern through the ages...the world is bringing them to justice? That kind of optimistic happy happy love love thinking reminds me of mere..er perhaps not...Like i said...this has been going on for ages...ups and downs, climbs and falls..what is your basis for judging evolved? er, no swords please! But bullets are aokay? No witchies on a stake or heads on pikes? but nuclear bombing right up the cat's alley?
We don't line up all the male inhabitants in a city and chopped their heads off! This is a slight improvement.
No we just massacre entire villages...with, wait for it....bullets! Oh, thats okay then...criky thats evolved...
They did not have key in the ancient past I think. Key is a later invention The world is suffering Nadia, it is through suffering that we learn, we evolve. As I said there will be many more set backs in the future but we are on a evolutionary path as God intended. The world is coming together Nadia. We can communicate to any person on the other side of the Globe. Techonology is brining us together. And one day we will call ourselves the Citizens of Planet Earth!
i see human nature remaining the same, none of the hippie lovey stuff...i see the methods change but the patterns are the SAME...the rollercoaster that never ends...i wish i was a poetic as you...
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
Cuz the mystics, sages,sufis and grand mufti's say so?
I was serious Nadia I have embraced all humanity. The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. But just as I celebrate the Good of humanity I will always try to come to terms with the Ugliness of Humanity...
Good luck, we need to support one another throught the good times and the bad times...damn i think that was in some song...look i tried to be poetic really i did...
Regards,
Nadia -
Salaam Nadia,
If there are contradictions in a translation you HAVE to go to the source language to find out how and why, y'know regular detective deduction work...
How about this - If there are any contradictions/problems you have to go to the SOURCE. idea
IMHO, we can take a lifetime learning 'classical arabic', and we'll have gone no where in terms of spiritual development. wink
Peace.
-
Peace Zein,
Yes, i agree with ur line of thinking as well...there are many ways to look at it...gathering evidence for dicussing with people who demand it and who claim to argue semantics and language with you...or just realising what the deal is...in either case in a discussion you need to have the evidence...like why is khimar not a head covering?
why is salat not prayer? analysis of original never hurts...but u can get there from here kinda thing too...I with you on the learning the entire language thing...i've made leaps and bounds myself by anaylsis alone without knowing how to communicate with beduins or their camels...bro wakas has a lot of good stuff on his site and the method is awesome.... )
Nadia
-
Hello LoteTree,
- how do you decide if a translation is good or bad without knowing the original language?
Intelligence and Wisdom (which includes knowledge, intuition and reason) are the key words to understanding the contextual nature of any given material, verbal or written.
Translations or interpretations of Quran by the majority of scholars, especially in the past, have been similar if not exact (as one clearly notices), and were based on "dogmatic mindsets". When one steps out of such unpleasant dilema or religious doctrines and ventures out to seek a proper understanding of Quranic injunctions as per Natural Laws, Aidid Safar stands out quite vibrant. No other scholar, up-to-date, regardless of his/her education/knowledge, has come even slightly close to bring about the reletavity of understanding the entire Quran by/within itself to prove its own contextual points as per GOD's Natural System and our ways of Life that carry us to live a righteous life. Surely then, the Quran is a guide for all mankind in general and not just for "muslims".
I suggest you read the entire .pdf file of the Englsih or French version of "Highjacking of Islam" at www.aididsafar.com.
-
The majority of people here look at the different translations and choose the ones that suits their reasoning imo...maybe you see differently?
So there can never be a definitive translation of Quran?
Is that impossible to achieve?Do we always have to pick and choose between so many translation according to our taste? So how can one be sure of the message?
erm for example now we burn them pagan heathen 'witches' in hiroshima and nagasaki?
Hey Japanese how come to terms with their tragedy. Through suffering they have learnt and so has the world learnt about nuclear devastation. From tragedy they have risen to become leading nations of this world...
reminds me of mere..er perhaps not...Like i said...this has been going on for ages...ups and downs, climbs and falls..what is your basis for judging evolved? er, no swords please! But bullets are aokay? No witchies on a stake or heads on pikes? but nuclear bombing right up the cat's alley?
Yes it goes up and down but we evolve by small degrees -)
And evolution is always very slow to slow for you to see perhaps. But nevertherless we are evolving according to God's intended plan.We don't line up all the male inhabitants in a city and chopped their heads off! This is a slight improvement.
No we just massacre entire villages...with, wait for it....bullets! Oh, thats okay then...criky thats evolved...
At least they did not stick them on the poles at the entrance of the city, as did the Romans! so I say yes this is an improvement -)
i see human nature remaining the same, none of the hippie lovey stuff...i see the methods change but the patterns are the SAME...the rollercoaster that never ends...i wish i was a poetic as you...
No Nadia, it is nothing to do with hippie stuff. If you believe that human nature remains the same then that is your reality. But very existence of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Democracy, Principles of personal liberty is a sign that we have come a long way but there is a long way to go.
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
Cuz the mystics, sages,sufis and grand mufti's say so?
No Nadia, your own consciouss should tell you that. Your soul should tell you that. Your heart should tell you that. Your God-given reason should tell you that. But the problem it seems some people prefer to be told what to believe in, what to follow, how to follow it. Some people it seems prefer to be sheeps baa baa-ying to the others because they are it seems incapable thinking for themselves. They despise their own God-given reason.
Regards,
-
IMHO, we can take a lifetime learning 'classical arabic', and we'll have gone no where in terms of spiritual development. wink
That is why I say go beyond scripture.
How can you go to the source Zenje if can't read the Source Language?
You have to rely on people who have studied the source Language right? and these people have also done the translation right? so going to the source language is going to the translations right? ...oh never mind...Come zenje where is the definitative translation of the Quran? Where can I find one? How long do we have to dither over this and that translation?
Anyone here on this FORUM, please tell ONE DEFINITIVE TRANSLATION of the QURAN, so we can stop this nonsense of comparing so many translation which making a nonsense of the message!!!
Regards,
-
How can you go to the source Zenje if can't read the Source Language?
WHO is the SOURCE? Answer that, and the question dissappears.Come zenje where is the definitative translation of the Quran?
Choose any that you like. I like the PM translation, but it doesn't really matter. You can read in English, Latin or Cl. Arabic of you want... understanding it is a whole different story. I don't compare translations. Once in a while, I'll check out a dictionary if I want to go into word play, but that's about it.Anyone here on this FORUM, please tell ONE DEFINITIVE TRANSLATION of the QURAN, so we can stop this nonsense of comparing so many translation which making a nonsense of the message!!!
One day you might understand that all the knowledge and reason is nothing without GOD. Once we stop worshipping books, people (translators/interpretors) and other idols that we so quickly set up, then we'll "get" the message. )Peace
-
How can you go to the source Zenje if can't read the Source Language?
WHO is the SOURCE? Answer that, and the question dissappears.You know my answer to that don't you?!
WHO IS THE SOURCE Zenje and HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS FROM THAT SOURCE without reading the translation or knowing the language?One day you might understand that all the knowledge and reason is nothing without GOD.
One day you will understand that scripture is nothing to do with the reality we call GOD. That scripture can only be a GUIDE to finding God within yourself...
Once we stop worshipping books, people (translators/interpretors) and other idols that we so quickly set up, then we'll "get" the message. )
PeaceOnce we stop being a sheep and start to think for ourselves then we will understand that the message has been always locked within ourselves -)
Regards,
-
Peace Lotetree,
So there can never be a definitive translation of Quran?
Is that impossible to achieve?Do we always have to pick and choose between so many translation according to our taste? So how can one be sure of the message?
We use our reason and guidance from the God...it will differ from person to person...on one hand you say let everything free, let it wander aimlessly and on the other you want it put in a box for you? The path and the message is clear that doesn't mean you won't have to put in an effort y'know...That's why the reading is dynamic...it varies in regards to the level of understanding...
Hey Japanese how come to terms with their tragedy. Through suffering they have learnt and so has the world learnt about nuclear devastation. From tragedy they have risen to become leading nations of this world...
This pattern repeats through the ages...there is no well now they've learnt so thats that...we revert as well, which is well documented in the records of history...therefore it's not evidence of this evolved human conciousness thing you speak of...
Yes it goes up and down but we evolve by small degrees
And evolution is always very slow to slow for you to see perhaps. But nevertherless we are evolving according to God's intended plan.According to what you said in your last post, you judge evolving by exchanging swords for bullets and claim that's an improvement? It has the same end result y'know...death and pain and suffering and of course lots of gore and blood to go along with it...but maybe it's toned down graphically for you in some way to see it as such?
At least they did not stick them on the poles at the entrance of the city, as did the Romans! so I say yes this is an improvement
No we make playing cards out of them amongst other things...tell me are you really serious here?
No Nadia, it is nothing to do with hippie stuff. If you believe that human nature remains the same then that is your reality. But very existence of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Democracy, Principles of personal liberty is a sign that we have come a long way but there is a long way to go.
We have always come from a long way and have a long way to go no matter what time period we are born in.
No Nadia, your own consciouss should tell you that. Your soul should tell you that. Your heart should tell you that. Your God-given reason should tell you that. But the problem it seems some people prefer to be told what to believe in, what to follow, how to follow it. Some people it seems prefer to be sheeps baa baa-ying to the others because they are it seems incapable thinking for themselves. They despise their own God-given reason.
I don't see what this has to do with understanding and following scripture if 'God given reason' beckons you to...unless you have a problem with someone following any scripture even though their 'reason' tells them to? Wandering aimlessly is okay but having a plan in accordance with a scripture is a no no because then people are not using their 'God given reason'?
And another question on the same subject while we are at it...how do you gauge what spiritual progress is for another person? Or do you believe what works for you must work for everyone?Regards,
Nadia -
Hello Nadia,
This pattern repeats through the ages...there is no well now they've learnt so thats that...we revert as well, which is well documented in the records of history...therefore it's not evidence of this evolved human conciousness thing you speak of...
The fact that we have Universal Declaration Of Human Rights, Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty does not that tell you we have reached a level where when we can have these kinds of things? Yes I know this is not a magic cure. But the fact humanity can come together and create something like this, I say is a sign of evolved human consciousness. Perhaps you can't see this but others can. And they also see that we are on a evolutionary path...
At least they did not stick them on the poles at the entrance of the city, as did the Romans! so I say yes this is an improvement
No we make playing cards out of them amongst other things...tell me are you really serious here?
Of course not. But you should not appeal to emotions. Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam is indeed barbaric. So was the World Trade Centre Atrocity! and so was the Nazi holoucaust. But our collective consciouss abhors such acts. While Moses descendants celebrated wipping out the Philistines from the Promised Land, we can do no such thing. We can only try to come to terms with this area of darkness in the human soul...
No Nadia, it is nothing to do with hippie stuff. If you believe that human nature remains the same then that is your reality. But very existence of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Democracy, Principles of personal liberty is a sign that we have come a long way but there is a long way to go.
We have always come from a long way and have a long way to go no matter what time period we are born in.
But we are on a evolutionary path as God's intended Plan...
No Nadia, your own consciouss should tell you that. Your soul should tell you that. Your heart should tell you that. Your God-given reason should tell you that. But the problem it seems some people prefer to be told what to believe in, what to follow, how to follow it. Some people it seems prefer to be sheeps baa baa-ying to the others because they are it seems incapable thinking for themselves. They despise their own God-given reason.
I don't see what this has to do with understanding and following scripture if 'God given reason' beckons you to...unless you have a problem with someone following any scripture even though their 'reason' tells them to?
No Nadia I don't have problems with that at all. I don't have problems with other peoples belief. But when they tell that their scripture is the absolute truth/whole truth and nothing but the truth then I will always ask them this question How can you be sure?
When they quote verse to prove something and I do the same they say the translation I have used is incorrect even though I have quoted from the same translation.
Wandering aimlessly is okay but having a plan in accordance with a scripture is a no no because then people are not using their 'God given reason'?
But the plan should be GUIDE Nadia, it should not become an Idol and obstacle to intellectual and spiritual progress...
And another question on the same subject while we are at it...how do you gauge what spiritual progress is for another person? Or do you believe what works for you must work for everyone?
I am not gauging anyone's spiritual progress here. Perhaps we can discuss this under another thread? It is quite important I think...
The path and the message is clear that doesn't mean you won't have to put in an effort y'know...That's why the reading is dynamic...it varies in regards to the level of understanding
Lets concentrate on above because that was what the original argument was about. So lets begin
Mquran said where did I get the "spoils of war" from. So I gave him following quoations from the scripture browser on this forum
Y.Ali They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say '(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe.'
R.Khalifa They consult you about the spoils of war. Say, 'The spoils of war belong to GOD and the messenger.' You shall observe GOD, exhort one another to be righteous, and obey GOD and His messenger, if you are believers.
Pickthal They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.
Shakir They ask you about the windfalls. Say The windfalls are for Allah and the Messenger. So be careful of (your duty to) Allah and set aright matters of your difference, and obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers.
Literal They ask/question you about the spoils/gifts . Say "The spoils/gifts (are) to God and the messenger, so fear and obey God and correct/repair that what is between you, and obey God and His messenger, if you were believing."
Surah 81How can we apply above kind of morality now. So tell me Nadia since you are expert on this. What does it mean? mquran said it means gift/profit. Please enlighten me?
Regards,
-
Salaam all
nadia wrote
the reading is dynamic...it varies in regards to the level of understanding...that's exactly the point - and it's why there will never be a final translation or even understanding
i guess if one got that far god would call this person back from earth right away - no more reason to stay...elke
-
I wish peace and salvation to all...
there are a lot of examples that seemingly indicates that not all of the Book`s details are directed to all the people of all the times....i would like to be proven otherwise by those who believe that all the details are stricly applying to all communities, other then original arab recipients....I could surely be wrong and those examples may not stay valid upon exposition of a more correct translation or more appropriate cross- referencing, understanding or whatever....
Here`s one for a start....
In 492 the believers are ordered, if it happens that one of them kill another by chance, that his duty is to pay "blood-money" AND to free a slave(or whatever i am not 100% sure of the corectness of that transaltion)...
However the precise amount is not decreed(correct me if i am wrong) and it is seemingly presumed or understood that the original recipients already know the exact amount that is to be paid, and imo this is a potential indicator that all the book`s details are only for a certain cultural milieu or community...and that its general principles might be diferently elaborated or applied into life in different cultures or circumstances
best wishes
Zlatan
-
Peace Lotetree,
The fact that we have Universal Declaration Of Human Rights, Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty does not that tell you we have reached a level where when we can have these kinds of things? Yes I know this is not a magic cure. But the fact humanity can come together and create something like this, I say is a sign of evolved human consciousness. Perhaps you can't see this but others can. And they also see that we are on a evolutionary path...
Perhaps you can't see the point i've been reiterating...we have always had this in some form or another in different time periods...the fact that we have them and have had them does not change human nature or your collective consciousness, has not except for the guided, so once again i ask you what is this evolved thing you speak of when we still have the same actions in different guises with (ahem) slight changes in technology aka bullets instead of swords?
Does a universal declaration of liberty give something to the world unless it's followed? So how is it evolved exactly? God sent scripture through the ages as well...but the problem is you don't think messages from God in form of scripture are 'evolved' enough for you...if it claims to come from God we shouldn't follow it cause its archaic but human made declarations are the pinnacle of evolution..the standard by which all should be judged?
The bastion of liberty in today's 'liberated' world can invade and pillage another country because it has the might thus the right to...i don't see anything evolved about that...perhaps you do? Did they by chance use bullets instead of broadswords? Oh but people argue against it y'know...yeah i'm sure they argued against the romans back in the day too, we have had world wars, bosnia, palestine, sudan...anyone see a pattern here? No one does a damn thing unless it's in their INTEREST to...all declarations be damned...how is that evolved when it's been going on forever?
The point is not about a magic cure my friend the point is how is it EVOLVED? By shifting relative standards in the sands of time?
Of course not. But you should not appeal to emotions. Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam is indeed barbaric. So was the World Trade Centre Atrocity! and so was the Nazi holoucaust. But our collective consciouss abhors such acts. While Moses descendants celebrated wipping out the Philistines from the Promised Land, we can do no such thing. We can only try to come to terms with this area of darkness in the human soul...
But you can appeal to emotions by asking everyone to love and hug one another? Any enlightened guided human would abhor acts of cruelty no matter what time period they are coming from...you think people in this day and age don't celebrate the wiping off of their opponents? saddam? bin laden? toppling statues with great glee and gusto and universally awknowledged on all major news channels as a great day for FREEDOM?
No Nadia I don't have problems with that at all. I don't have problems with other peoples belief. But when they tell that their scripture is the absolute truth/whole truth and nothing but the truth then I will always ask them this question How can you be sure?
Every person's surety is their own...if they think its whatever truth why does that trouble you?
I am not gauging anyone's spiritual progress here. Perhaps we can discuss this under another thread? It is quite important I think...
You said in your previous post's
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
So apparently you know the key to spritual progress? For you? Does it have to be the same for me? What if wandering around aimlessly is not my key to spritual progress but scripture is?
Lets concentrate on above because that was what the original argument was about. So lets begin
The original argument was also about why the quran is archaic no ? and then you brought in that evolved thingy...anyhow...if you want just respond to this and start a new thread for the other's...
How can we apply above kind of morality now. So tell me Nadia since you are expert on this. What does it mean? mquran said it means gift/profit. Please enlighten me?
Since i am expert on this i shall refer you to the posts done previously in this thread where mq shared his understandings...perhaps it shall become clearer?
Regards,
Nadia -
collective consciousness, has not except for the guided,
So only the GUIDED have a evolved consciouness? And guided according to Scripture?
...but the problem is you don't think messages from God in form of scripture are 'evolved' enough for you...
How is distributing "spoils of war" (or call gifts or whatever you want to call it) evolved morality? How is marking/chopping hands of thief evolved morality?
A Evolved consciouss will abhor such acts. We as humans abhor such acts enought to come together and delcare Universal Human Rights.
if it claims to come from God we shouldn't follow it cause its archaic but
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that it is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans? Language of the scripture is 6th Arabia. The Morality of the scripture is 6th Arabia...
human made declarations are the pinnacle of evolution..the standard by which all should be judged?
What is wrong with that? We set the standards, we should be judged by this standdards. It is a collective effort. We can set standards to meet the challenges of the future. Instead of diving into scripture and pontificate on the meaning of a word or verse, and lose ourselves in the quagmire of translations, we can devise rules that best serve us as a society.
The bastion of liberty in today's 'liberated' world can invade and pillage another country because it has the might thus the right to..
It was this very liberty that you despise that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings killing thousands of innocent lives. It is this very liberty that had allowed individuals to blow up trains with hundreds of people inside.
No one does a damn thing unless it's in their INTEREST to...all declarations be damned...how is that evolved when it's been going on forever?
We have democracy and principles of liberty. This will one day will embrace all humanity. I am sure of it.
The point is not about a magic cure my friend the point is how is it EVOLVED? By shifting relative standards in the sands of time?
But to you scripture is a magic cure for all the worlds ills! But the standards of the scripture is indeed stuck in the sand of 6th Arabia.
But you can appeal to emotions by asking everyone to love and hug one another? Any enlightened guided human would abhor acts of cruelty no matter what time period they are coming from...
I say more and more of humanity is becoming to abhor cruelty.
you think people in this day and age don't celebrate the wiping off of their opponents? saddam? bin laden? toppling statues with great glee and gusto and universally awknowledged on all major news channels as a great day for FREEDOM?
No, collective consciouss of humanity would not celebrate any form of cruelty. Do you prefer Saddam the dictator then?
Every person's surety is their own...if they think its whatever truth why does that trouble you?
You are wrong there. Nothing troubles me. We are having a debate here. Why should your belief trouble me?
I am not gauging anyone's spiritual progress here. Perhaps we can discuss this under another thread? It is quite important I think...
You said in your previous post's
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
So apparently you know the key to spritual progress? For you? Does it have to be the same for me? What if wandering around aimlessly is not my key to spritual progress but scripture is?
Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages. But if you say key to your spiritual progress for you is scritpre. Then that is your belief and I will respect that. But spoon fed wisdom is useless unless you experience the truth yourself...
Lets concentrate on above because that was what the original argument was about. So lets begin
Since i am expert on this i shall refer you to the posts done previously in this thread where mq shared his understandings...perhaps it shall become clearer?
I thought you would make it clearer to me.
But perhaps not...Cheeers.
Regards,
-
Peace Lotetree,
So only the GUIDED have a evolved consciouness? And guided according to Scripture?
The guided whether by scripture or otherwise are individually evolved...there is a difference between individual evolution of thought which is something always present throughout the ages in various humans and your collective great blob of quivering conciousness...note the importance of whether...does NOT discount scripture or other paths...
How is distributing "spoils of war" (or call gifts or whatever you want to call it) evolved morality? How is marking/chopping hands of thief evolved morality?
A Evolved consciouss will abhor such acts. We as humans abhor such acts enought to come together and delcare Universal Human Rights.
Are your delicate sensibilities offended by distributing gifts among the people for example? Or marking a person's hand like marking his record for doing time in jail? This is what ruffles your feathers is it?
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans?
God guides whom He wills...If my intelligence and reasoning and intuition lead me to believe that scripture are God's words, that is my surety...are you saying that unless God himself came down in person and told you LO! That is my book! Follow! we should not follow scripture just by reasoning and understanding/intuition/perception alone? Who do you think guides us whether to scripture or to other paths?
Language of the scripture is 6th Arabia. The Morality of the scripture is 6th Arabia.
Rightttt...ookay then...this forum is all about the revival of the reading from ages of dust and neglect and archaic translators...do read some of the quran study threads sometime...
What is wrong with that? We set the standards, we should be judged by this standdards. It is a collective effort. We can set standards to meet the challenges of the future. Instead of diving into scripture and pontificate on the meaning of a word or verse, and lose ourselves in the quagmire of translations.
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
It was this very liberty that you despise that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings killing thousands innocent lives. It is this very liberty that had allowed individuals to blow up trains with hundreds of people inside.
It was liberty that i despised that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings? Maybe you ought to rethink this statement and then post it... lol
savage_carrot wrote
No one does a damn thing unless it's in their INTEREST to...all declarations be damned...how is that evolved when it's been going on forever?Lotetree
We have democracy and principles of liberty.
Did you NOT get the point? The romans too had a republic..read on...maybe it will all seem very familiar to you...
http//www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/rome-republic-constitution.htm
But to you scripture is a magic cure for all the worlds ills! But the standards of the scripture is indeed stuck in the sand of 6th Arabia.
I said The point is not about a magic cure my friend the point is how is it EVOLVED?
and you tell me i say it's a magic cure? Nice dive from the actual question which was how is your universal manmade blob EVOLVED? Care to try your hand at the question again? The standards of the scripture to YOU are stuck...maybe because you don't want to put some effort into actually seeing what it says...
No, collective consciouss of humanity would not celebrate any form of cruelty. Do you prefer Saddam the dictator then?
Where is this collective blob then? Come on let it out...so who actually celebrated? Where was this blob then? hiding and quaking in fear? Not collective enough? I care not about saddam...we are talking about the PRINCIPLE of the thing...where you talk about the decendents of moses celebrating but refuse to awknowledge it is happening NOW as well...
By the way, do you think the us was okay in invading iraq? Do answer...Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages.
Oooh the sages return...and of course since a LOT of people have the same insight thats IT....
But spoon fed wisdom is useless unless you experience the truth yourself...
And then you ask me to spoonfeed you what the quran say's about spoils of war when it's already been discussed just some posts back? No matter...
Regards,
Nadia -
Hello Nadia,
...there is a difference between individual evolution of thought which is something always present throughout the ages in various humans and your collective great blob of quivering conciousness...
You said human nature does not change and now you are saying individual consciouness does evolve?
Are your delicate sensibilities offended by distributing gifts among the people for example? Or marking a person's hand like marking his record for doing time in jail? This is what ruffles your feathers is it?
Those "gifts" as you call it are "spoils of war". I suppose this does not bother your consciouness does it?
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans?
God guides whom He wills...
That is very arbitary of God is it not? I thought he was most compassionate and most merciful. So He guides according to his whim?
Where is the justice in that? Where is the fairness in that?If my intelligence and reasoning and intuition lead me to believe that scripture are God's words, that is my surety...
are you saying that unless God himself came down in person and told you LO! That is my book! Follow!Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
They have Nadia, it is called Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty.
And I choose to live in it.It was liberty that i despised that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings? Maybe you ought to rethink this statement and then post it... lol
I meant to say don't blame liberty for people acting out savagery. Valuing liberty is something that has to be nurtured and cultivated. It takes degree of courage and determination to appreciate Freedom and Liberty.
Did you NOT get the point? The romans too had a republic..read on...maybe it will all seem very familiar to you...
I did not know that Romans had a modern day democratic republic on the model of the Eurpeans?
Care to try your hand at the question again? The standards of the scripture to YOU are stuck...maybe because you don't want to put some effort into actually seeing what it says...
I asked you to enlighten me on this but you did not want to!
Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages.
Oooh the sages return...and of course since a LOT of people have the same insight thats IT....
May be it is Nadia but you can't see it, because you have your head in "Scripture-Cukoo-Land" like mquran.
And then you ask me to spoonfeed you what the quran say's about spoils of war when it's already been discussed just some posts back? No matter...
Hey you hardly gave me any?
My mouth is still open, I am still waiting.. -)Regards,
-
Peace Lotetree,
You said human nature does not change and now you are saying individual consciouness does evolve?
Human nature through the ages remains the same...you cannot say that humans are not humans in the different times? That's human nature ...Individual consciousness is how you perceive things, how you control your nature, how you understand things...does that mean you suddenly transform into an angel with a halo and change your nature? You still have the same human nature you just harness it or know what to do with it better...thats why anyone can revert...there is no such thing that now i have an evolved consciousness that i'm suddenly free of my human nature...
Those "gifts" as you call it are "spoils of war". I suppose this does not bother your consciouness does it?
If you noticed the posts before then maybe it behooved you to try and understand what they were saying? Here's a clip from bro Wakas's post in the same thread
It is not only mquran who thinks this. I also think "spoils of war" is highly debateable. Unfortunately 'anfal' is not used elswhere in al quran to thoroughly refute the 'spoils of war' claim but its core meaning is gain/gift/addition. And clearly the words 'of war' are not there. Thus, you must admit, at the very least, it is an interpretation/extrapolation.
That is very arbitary of God is it not? I thought he was most compassionate and most merciful. So He guides according to his whim.
Where is the justice in that? Where is the fairness in that?What, do you disagree that God guides whom He wills? Are you telling me what God should do? Are you telling me what God should consider fair and just? Are you setting the standards for God?
Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
roll Yeah, God send down the angels then we shall believe...
They have Nadia, it is called Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty.
Huh? I thought you said the quran was stuck in the 6th century?
savage_carrot wrote
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
I meant to say don't blame liberty for people acting out savagery. Valuing liberty is something that has to be nurtured and cultivated. It takes degree of courage and determination to appreciate Freedom and Liberty.
Oh and i said i blame liberty for people flying into buildings? And what does the rest of your statement got to do with what you actually said in the other post...nevermind... ?
I did not know that Romans had a modern day democratic republic on the model of the Eurpeans?
Did u read the link? Did you notice familiar patterns? probably not...
I asked you to enlighten me on this but you did not want to?
Seriously lotetree, two people have posted their thoughts on this subject of war spoils...if you are really interested, start with those...ask them why they think the way they do...in fact start a whole new thread in the study section, i'll participate even...thats why i think you are not interested, cause when they did post it, you never even replied to their salient points, just the more is better mentality...
What is the PRINCIPLE? So I am lost there?
roll
May be it is Nadia but you can't see it, because you have your head in "Scripture-Cukoo-Land" like mquran.
Oh and wandering around aimlessly without a plan, waiting for that voice to talk to you personally is so NOT la la land...i hope i don't end up in bedlam telling the doctor "you don't understand..it's a nice voice...it tells me nice things"...the key to spritual progress is losing your mind first...indeed...
Hey you hadly gave me any?
Hardly gave you any what?
Regards,
Nadia -
Are you telling me what God should consider fair and just?
Why not?
Are you setting the standards for God?
God set himself standards - I am asking why does He not stick by it instead of "He guides" on his Whim? This is arbitary and dictatorial God!
Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
roll Yeah, God send down the angels then we shall believe...
Why not Nadia? Why should only the Prophet have such priviliges? Is that Fair or Just?
Seriously lotetree, two people have posted their thoughts on this subject of war spoils...
I wanted to hear it from you.
Oh and wandering around aimlessly without a plan, waiting for that voice to talk to you personally is so NOT la la land...i hope i don't end up in bedlam telling the doctor "you don't understand..it's a nice voice...it tells me nice things"...the key to spritual progress is losing your mind first...indeed...
Do you think Muhammad had a Plan Nadia? No he did not. He reasoned, He reflected, he contemplated and He meditated. And did he rise upto highest heavens for the revelations? No. Revelations is something that happend within himself. Revealation is an event that took place in his soul. God is just Nadia, if you seek God yourself you will find God, not out there but within yourself as did Muhammad...
Regards,
