Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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collective consciousness, has not except for the guided,
So only the GUIDED have a evolved consciouness? And guided according to Scripture?
...but the problem is you don't think messages from God in form of scripture are 'evolved' enough for you...
How is distributing "spoils of war" (or call gifts or whatever you want to call it) evolved morality? How is marking/chopping hands of thief evolved morality?
A Evolved consciouss will abhor such acts. We as humans abhor such acts enought to come together and delcare Universal Human Rights.
if it claims to come from God we shouldn't follow it cause its archaic but
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that it is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans? Language of the scripture is 6th Arabia. The Morality of the scripture is 6th Arabia...
human made declarations are the pinnacle of evolution..the standard by which all should be judged?
What is wrong with that? We set the standards, we should be judged by this standdards. It is a collective effort. We can set standards to meet the challenges of the future. Instead of diving into scripture and pontificate on the meaning of a word or verse, and lose ourselves in the quagmire of translations, we can devise rules that best serve us as a society.
The bastion of liberty in today's 'liberated' world can invade and pillage another country because it has the might thus the right to..
It was this very liberty that you despise that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings killing thousands of innocent lives. It is this very liberty that had allowed individuals to blow up trains with hundreds of people inside.
No one does a damn thing unless it's in their INTEREST to...all declarations be damned...how is that evolved when it's been going on forever?
We have democracy and principles of liberty. This will one day will embrace all humanity. I am sure of it.
The point is not about a magic cure my friend the point is how is it EVOLVED? By shifting relative standards in the sands of time?
But to you scripture is a magic cure for all the worlds ills! But the standards of the scripture is indeed stuck in the sand of 6th Arabia.
But you can appeal to emotions by asking everyone to love and hug one another? Any enlightened guided human would abhor acts of cruelty no matter what time period they are coming from...
I say more and more of humanity is becoming to abhor cruelty.
you think people in this day and age don't celebrate the wiping off of their opponents? saddam? bin laden? toppling statues with great glee and gusto and universally awknowledged on all major news channels as a great day for FREEDOM?
No, collective consciouss of humanity would not celebrate any form of cruelty. Do you prefer Saddam the dictator then?
Every person's surety is their own...if they think its whatever truth why does that trouble you?
You are wrong there. Nothing troubles me. We are having a debate here. Why should your belief trouble me?
I am not gauging anyone's spiritual progress here. Perhaps we can discuss this under another thread? It is quite important I think...
You said in your previous post's
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
So apparently you know the key to spritual progress? For you? Does it have to be the same for me? What if wandering around aimlessly is not my key to spritual progress but scripture is?
Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages. But if you say key to your spiritual progress for you is scritpre. Then that is your belief and I will respect that. But spoon fed wisdom is useless unless you experience the truth yourself...
Lets concentrate on above because that was what the original argument was about. So lets begin
Since i am expert on this i shall refer you to the posts done previously in this thread where mq shared his understandings...perhaps it shall become clearer?
I thought you would make it clearer to me.
But perhaps not...Cheeers.
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
So only the GUIDED have a evolved consciouness? And guided according to Scripture?
The guided whether by scripture or otherwise are individually evolved...there is a difference between individual evolution of thought which is something always present throughout the ages in various humans and your collective great blob of quivering conciousness...note the importance of whether...does NOT discount scripture or other paths...
How is distributing "spoils of war" (or call gifts or whatever you want to call it) evolved morality? How is marking/chopping hands of thief evolved morality?
A Evolved consciouss will abhor such acts. We as humans abhor such acts enought to come together and delcare Universal Human Rights.
Are your delicate sensibilities offended by distributing gifts among the people for example? Or marking a person's hand like marking his record for doing time in jail? This is what ruffles your feathers is it?
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans?
God guides whom He wills...If my intelligence and reasoning and intuition lead me to believe that scripture are God's words, that is my surety...are you saying that unless God himself came down in person and told you LO! That is my book! Follow! we should not follow scripture just by reasoning and understanding/intuition/perception alone? Who do you think guides us whether to scripture or to other paths?
Language of the scripture is 6th Arabia. The Morality of the scripture is 6th Arabia.
Rightttt...ookay then...this forum is all about the revival of the reading from ages of dust and neglect and archaic translators...do read some of the quran study threads sometime...
What is wrong with that? We set the standards, we should be judged by this standdards. It is a collective effort. We can set standards to meet the challenges of the future. Instead of diving into scripture and pontificate on the meaning of a word or verse, and lose ourselves in the quagmire of translations.
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
It was this very liberty that you despise that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings killing thousands innocent lives. It is this very liberty that had allowed individuals to blow up trains with hundreds of people inside.
It was liberty that i despised that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings? Maybe you ought to rethink this statement and then post it... lol
savage_carrot wrote
No one does a damn thing unless it's in their INTEREST to...all declarations be damned...how is that evolved when it's been going on forever?Lotetree
We have democracy and principles of liberty.
Did you NOT get the point? The romans too had a republic..read on...maybe it will all seem very familiar to you...
http//www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/rome-republic-constitution.htm
But to you scripture is a magic cure for all the worlds ills! But the standards of the scripture is indeed stuck in the sand of 6th Arabia.
I said The point is not about a magic cure my friend the point is how is it EVOLVED?
and you tell me i say it's a magic cure? Nice dive from the actual question which was how is your universal manmade blob EVOLVED? Care to try your hand at the question again? The standards of the scripture to YOU are stuck...maybe because you don't want to put some effort into actually seeing what it says...
No, collective consciouss of humanity would not celebrate any form of cruelty. Do you prefer Saddam the dictator then?
Where is this collective blob then? Come on let it out...so who actually celebrated? Where was this blob then? hiding and quaking in fear? Not collective enough? I care not about saddam...we are talking about the PRINCIPLE of the thing...where you talk about the decendents of moses celebrating but refuse to awknowledge it is happening NOW as well...
By the way, do you think the us was okay in invading iraq? Do answer...Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages.
Oooh the sages return...and of course since a LOT of people have the same insight thats IT....
But spoon fed wisdom is useless unless you experience the truth yourself...
And then you ask me to spoonfeed you what the quran say's about spoils of war when it's already been discussed just some posts back? No matter...
Regards,
Nadia -
Hello Nadia,
...there is a difference between individual evolution of thought which is something always present throughout the ages in various humans and your collective great blob of quivering conciousness...
You said human nature does not change and now you are saying individual consciouness does evolve?
Are your delicate sensibilities offended by distributing gifts among the people for example? Or marking a person's hand like marking his record for doing time in jail? This is what ruffles your feathers is it?
Those "gifts" as you call it are "spoils of war". I suppose this does not bother your consciouness does it?
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans?
God guides whom He wills...
That is very arbitary of God is it not? I thought he was most compassionate and most merciful. So He guides according to his whim?
Where is the justice in that? Where is the fairness in that?If my intelligence and reasoning and intuition lead me to believe that scripture are God's words, that is my surety...
are you saying that unless God himself came down in person and told you LO! That is my book! Follow!Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
They have Nadia, it is called Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty.
And I choose to live in it.It was liberty that i despised that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings? Maybe you ought to rethink this statement and then post it... lol
I meant to say don't blame liberty for people acting out savagery. Valuing liberty is something that has to be nurtured and cultivated. It takes degree of courage and determination to appreciate Freedom and Liberty.
Did you NOT get the point? The romans too had a republic..read on...maybe it will all seem very familiar to you...
I did not know that Romans had a modern day democratic republic on the model of the Eurpeans?
Care to try your hand at the question again? The standards of the scripture to YOU are stuck...maybe because you don't want to put some effort into actually seeing what it says...
I asked you to enlighten me on this but you did not want to!
Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages.
Oooh the sages return...and of course since a LOT of people have the same insight thats IT....
May be it is Nadia but you can't see it, because you have your head in "Scripture-Cukoo-Land" like mquran.
And then you ask me to spoonfeed you what the quran say's about spoils of war when it's already been discussed just some posts back? No matter...
Hey you hardly gave me any?
My mouth is still open, I am still waiting.. -)Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
You said human nature does not change and now you are saying individual consciouness does evolve?
Human nature through the ages remains the same...you cannot say that humans are not humans in the different times? That's human nature ...Individual consciousness is how you perceive things, how you control your nature, how you understand things...does that mean you suddenly transform into an angel with a halo and change your nature? You still have the same human nature you just harness it or know what to do with it better...thats why anyone can revert...there is no such thing that now i have an evolved consciousness that i'm suddenly free of my human nature...
Those "gifts" as you call it are "spoils of war". I suppose this does not bother your consciouness does it?
If you noticed the posts before then maybe it behooved you to try and understand what they were saying? Here's a clip from bro Wakas's post in the same thread
It is not only mquran who thinks this. I also think "spoils of war" is highly debateable. Unfortunately 'anfal' is not used elswhere in al quran to thoroughly refute the 'spoils of war' claim but its core meaning is gain/gift/addition. And clearly the words 'of war' are not there. Thus, you must admit, at the very least, it is an interpretation/extrapolation.
That is very arbitary of God is it not? I thought he was most compassionate and most merciful. So He guides according to his whim.
Where is the justice in that? Where is the fairness in that?What, do you disagree that God guides whom He wills? Are you telling me what God should do? Are you telling me what God should consider fair and just? Are you setting the standards for God?
Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
roll Yeah, God send down the angels then we shall believe...
They have Nadia, it is called Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty.
Huh? I thought you said the quran was stuck in the 6th century?
savage_carrot wrote
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
I meant to say don't blame liberty for people acting out savagery. Valuing liberty is something that has to be nurtured and cultivated. It takes degree of courage and determination to appreciate Freedom and Liberty.
Oh and i said i blame liberty for people flying into buildings? And what does the rest of your statement got to do with what you actually said in the other post...nevermind... ?
I did not know that Romans had a modern day democratic republic on the model of the Eurpeans?
Did u read the link? Did you notice familiar patterns? probably not...
I asked you to enlighten me on this but you did not want to?
Seriously lotetree, two people have posted their thoughts on this subject of war spoils...if you are really interested, start with those...ask them why they think the way they do...in fact start a whole new thread in the study section, i'll participate even...thats why i think you are not interested, cause when they did post it, you never even replied to their salient points, just the more is better mentality...
What is the PRINCIPLE? So I am lost there?
roll
May be it is Nadia but you can't see it, because you have your head in "Scripture-Cukoo-Land" like mquran.
Oh and wandering around aimlessly without a plan, waiting for that voice to talk to you personally is so NOT la la land...i hope i don't end up in bedlam telling the doctor "you don't understand..it's a nice voice...it tells me nice things"...the key to spritual progress is losing your mind first...indeed...
Hey you hadly gave me any?
Hardly gave you any what?
Regards,
Nadia -
Are you telling me what God should consider fair and just?
Why not?
Are you setting the standards for God?
God set himself standards - I am asking why does He not stick by it instead of "He guides" on his Whim? This is arbitary and dictatorial God!
Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
roll Yeah, God send down the angels then we shall believe...
Why not Nadia? Why should only the Prophet have such priviliges? Is that Fair or Just?
Seriously lotetree, two people have posted their thoughts on this subject of war spoils...
I wanted to hear it from you.
Oh and wandering around aimlessly without a plan, waiting for that voice to talk to you personally is so NOT la la land...i hope i don't end up in bedlam telling the doctor "you don't understand..it's a nice voice...it tells me nice things"...the key to spritual progress is losing your mind first...indeed...
Do you think Muhammad had a Plan Nadia? No he did not. He reasoned, He reflected, he contemplated and He meditated. And did he rise upto highest heavens for the revelations? No. Revelations is something that happend within himself. Revealation is an event that took place in his soul. God is just Nadia, if you seek God yourself you will find God, not out there but within yourself as did Muhammad...
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
Why not?
Because you are NOT God...you don't 'get' to decide what God's standards are or should be...
God set himself standards - I am asking why does He not stick by it instead of "He guides" on his Whim? This is arbitary and dictatorial God!
He sets the standard because He's The God...and if you believe God is just and merciful in the best possible way then the rest of your statement is just blowin' in the wind...
Why not Nadia? Why should only the Prophet have such priviliges? Is that Fair or Just?
As before, you do not decide whats just and fair, God does...so maybe it's best to quell one's ego and arrogance in assuming that we know better than God whats just and fair and how God should be...
I wanted to hear it from you.
Why are you not addressing the people who posted about it before me? Is there some reason for your selective reasoning?
Do you think Muhammad had a Plan Nadia? No he did not. He reasoned, He reflected, he contemplated and He meditated. And did he rise upto highest heavens for the revelations? No. Revelations is something that happend within himself. Revealation is an event that took place in his soul. God is just Nadia, if you seek God yourself you will find God, not out there but within yourself as did Muhammad...
All of this just doesn't explain your phobia with people following the scripture using their reason or even God guiding people to the scripture..
Regards,
Nadia -
He sets the standard because He's The God...
But if He does not stick by His standard then he is Unjust God, yes?
Guiding on a whim is unjust is it not?As before, you do not decide whats just and fair, God does...so maybe it's best to quell one's ego and arrogance in assuming that we know better than God whats just and fair and how God should be...
Why not? If we can conceive of JUST and FAIR then GOD should also know this because He created us?
All of this just doesn't explain your phobia with people following the scripture using their reason or even God guiding people to the scripture..
You told me it was pointless going without a PLAN, and I have shown you that Prophet Muhammad did not have a PLAN, he found GOD by sheer will of his efforts...
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
But if He does not stick by His standard then he is Unjust God, yes?
Guiding on a whim is unjust is it not?
Why not? If we can conceive of JUST and FAIR then GOD should also know this because He created us?God in His infinite wisdom knows more about justice and mercy than any mere human...so for God in His infinite mercy and wisdom to lay down the standards is far better than any standards humans can conceive of. Maybe humans just aren't on a high enough level to see any further yet, the whole picture? idea
You told me it was pointless going without a PLAN, and I have shown you that Prophet Muhammad did not have a PLAN, he found GOD by sheer will of his efforts...
In all my posts i have NOT discounted the idea of God guiding people other than the scripture as well...infact you on the other hand, constantly keep on about the horrors of following scripture...maybe you should balance the scales a bit?
Regards,
Nadia. -
In all my posts i have NOT discounted the idea of God guiding people other than the scripture as well...]infact you on the other hand, constantly keep on about the horrors of following scripture...maybe you should balance the scales a bit?
Regards,
Nadia.You are quite right Nadia.
I just want to make people aware that they should not make idol out scritpure. But I take your point.Thanks.
It was nice talking to you... -)
I enjoyed your writing -)See you around the forum...
Take care.
Regards,
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Salaamun alaikum,
At Nadia's request, I will attempt to explain why I believe there's no such thing as 'spoils of war'. First however, I would like to assert a point and that is
Al-Quraan is NOT meant to fit into our personal idea of what should be ethics. Arrogant individuals who think they are too evolved for Al-Quraan should know that Allah says
"What! WILL YOU TEACH ALLAH ABOUT YOUR DEEN? But Allah knows all that is in the heavens and on earth He has full knowledge of all things.
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. (49/16-17)So I advise students of Al-Quraan like myself, use Al-Quraan to explain itself (as opposed to blindly reading translations) but once you've arrived at your conclusion, TAKE A STAND. Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans. When The Hegemon so chooses, he would not hesitate to daisy-cut , napalm, or atomise you into the stone age. It doesn't work both ways.
Ok, now on 'spoils of war'. We will first note that al-quraan has a word for both 'wealth' and 'war' which are 'maal' and 'harb' respectively. Neither of these words are used in 'spoils of war'.
Secondly, we need to see who actually created this whole history of 'spoils of war'. Sunni historians, who basically called Muhammad ibn Abdullah a brigand for his raids.
Third, we need to look at 8/1 which states
They ask thee concerning AL-ANFAAL. Say AL-ANFAAL are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe." (8/1)
Al-anfaal is rooted in NFL and another occurence of this word is
And pray in the small watches of the morning NAFILAH for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory(17/7
The context of the above negates any notion of 'spoils of war'.
We also need to look at 8/41
And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.
Notice that '(in war)' is an extrapolation. The text not only doesn't contain 'in war', it also has a more denying phrase which is 'from anything' (min shay). As for the word 'booty' , the word 'ghanim' which appears in the story of Musa (20/1 where it means sheep. It's similar to when Allah uses the word 'an'aam' to mean 'cattle' and also 'pleasures, benefits'.
None of these things refer to anything you loot off people. This is a clear interpolation perpertrated by the enemies of Al-Quraan in order to detract from its message. However, applying Quranic internal principles, we can easily transcend this.
thanks and peace.
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To be fair this is the latest, Progressive Muslims Translation of the verse. If mquran has any argument then I suggest he take that with them.
They ask you regarding the spoils of war, Say ?The spoils of war are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
So can you translate above for me mquran?
Regards,
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Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
Regards,
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So can you translate above for me mquran?
What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
This guy really cracks me up, I have to say. The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
In the UK, 2 million people marched against the war in iraq. The war still went on.
In the USA, the Patriots Acts effectively nullifies any right to 'dissent'. In the 50ies McCarthyism demonised communists in such a way that the word is almost a bad word in the states even now.
Every polity has laws. If you break those laws, your freedom is gone. Lets not let SLOGANS equal REALITIES.
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Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
Regards,Read what FREE-MINDS.ORG is all about before you interpret it your way. Anyways, there is something missing in it though, i.e. the fact that the quran is used as the criterion. I think the site maintainers should include that.
<<<"...O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common agreement between us and between you; that 1) we do not serve except God, and 2) do not set up anything at all with Him, and 3) that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God...." (The Message 364)
This website has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone...
This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone.
Many of you may outwardly be content with your current faith or that which you inherited from your parents and community...but to some out there, there will always be a tugging at the back of their mind that 'there is something more', and that 'some things don't always make sense'...
If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...>>>
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Peace mq, lt, all...
LT, it was an interesting discussion...thank you!
Mq,
Thank you for explaining it to us again...
What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
It makes sense to me with the explanations provided...
The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
Count Victor Lustig sold the Eiffel tower twice )
Every polity has laws. If you break those laws, your freedom is gone. Lets not let SLOGANS equal REALITIES.
Indeed...
Regards,
Nadia -
What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
Really? Very creative translation mquran!
Lets put it in the verse
They ask you regarding the "additional benefits", Say ?additional benefits" are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Yes that makes sense doesn't it mquran!
Previously you said it was PROFIT.
They ask you regarding the PROFIT, Say PROFIT are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Yes, thats makes sense too!
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
This guy really cracks me up, I have to say. The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
You are really are CAVEMAN aren't you? How is that related to FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND, without getting your head lopped off? I did not realise DINOSAURS like you still walk the Earth! -) Yes we had a good laugh at you too in our office. You provided with us some lunch time entertainment! I say it again I am so glad that I live in a country that gives me the FREEDOM to SPEAK MY MIND!
Regards,
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Read what FREE-MINDS.ORG is all about before you interpret it your way. Anyways, there is something missing in it though, i.e. the fact that the quran is used as the criterion. I think the site maintainers should include that.
Thats a good one mate! Read FREE-MINDS before you interpret it! -)
Free Minds is FREE MINDS - comprehend? If you abdicate YOUR FREE MIND to scritpure then it is not FREE MINDS is it? and one more thing IT INVITES PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS INCLUDING ATHEISTS! - DUH!You must QUESTION EVERYTHING FOR YOU TO BE FREE-MINDS!
Regards,
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What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
It makes sense to me with the explanations provided...
Good for you Nadia, but I am not convinced by the arguments. If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war" but don't try to be creative and translate it to something that does not make sense because you don't want to translate as "spoils of war" because of modern day sensibilities...
The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
Count Victor Lustig sold the Eiffel tower twice
Oh Nadia, how is that anyway related having the FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND? How is that related to PERSONAL LIBERTY?
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war"
Thats what the posts have been about...the word war is NOT there, people are trying to interpret it to see how it fits without putting in something which is NOT there...
Oh Nadia, how is that anyway related having the FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND? How is that related to PERSONAL LIBERTY?
roll I was telling mq that the eiffel tower was sold twice for great gobs of cash, about human gullibility...are you trying to tell me i was saying something different then? That somehow i was trying to relate it to LADY LIBERTY and KEEPING THE TORCH ALOFT? Get a grip my friend...let's not get carried away here with a tad too much zealousness...
In retrospect, just the fact that you had to ask me "how is that anyway related" should have been the first clue...
Regards,
Nadia -
Peace Lotetree,
If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war"
Thats what the posts have been about...the word war is NOT there, people are trying to interpret it to see how it fits without putting in something which is NOT there...
I am not convinced. Rashad Khalifa, the Great Hadiths and Sunnah rejector, and the native Arabic translator, translated it as spoils of war. And he knew more about Quranic Arabic than the rest. No Nadia, I am not convinced. Chasing after root words can allow us to be very creative with the translations. But I wait for Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation of the Quran to be persuaded on this..
This is the literal translation
Literal They ask/question you about the spoils/gifts . Say "The spoils/gifts (are) to God and the messenger, so fear and obey God and correct/repair that what is between you, and obey God and His messenger, if you were believing."
Gift does not make sense at all but the spoils does. And spoils only makes sense in the context of war as Rashad and others understood it. But I will see how Edip Yuksel tries to translate this...
I was telling mq that the eiffel tower was sold twice for great gobs of cash, about human gullibility...are you trying to tell me i was saying something different then?
Sorry Nadia I did not get your Great. Pardon me -)
Regards,