Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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In all my posts i have NOT discounted the idea of God guiding people other than the scripture as well...]infact you on the other hand, constantly keep on about the horrors of following scripture...maybe you should balance the scales a bit?
Regards,
Nadia.You are quite right Nadia.
I just want to make people aware that they should not make idol out scritpure. But I take your point.Thanks.
It was nice talking to you... -)
I enjoyed your writing -)See you around the forum...
Take care.
Regards,
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Salaamun alaikum,
At Nadia's request, I will attempt to explain why I believe there's no such thing as 'spoils of war'. First however, I would like to assert a point and that is
Al-Quraan is NOT meant to fit into our personal idea of what should be ethics. Arrogant individuals who think they are too evolved for Al-Quraan should know that Allah says
"What! WILL YOU TEACH ALLAH ABOUT YOUR DEEN? But Allah knows all that is in the heavens and on earth He has full knowledge of all things.
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. (49/16-17)So I advise students of Al-Quraan like myself, use Al-Quraan to explain itself (as opposed to blindly reading translations) but once you've arrived at your conclusion, TAKE A STAND. Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans. When The Hegemon so chooses, he would not hesitate to daisy-cut , napalm, or atomise you into the stone age. It doesn't work both ways.
Ok, now on 'spoils of war'. We will first note that al-quraan has a word for both 'wealth' and 'war' which are 'maal' and 'harb' respectively. Neither of these words are used in 'spoils of war'.
Secondly, we need to see who actually created this whole history of 'spoils of war'. Sunni historians, who basically called Muhammad ibn Abdullah a brigand for his raids.
Third, we need to look at 8/1 which states
They ask thee concerning AL-ANFAAL. Say AL-ANFAAL are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe." (8/1)
Al-anfaal is rooted in NFL and another occurence of this word is
And pray in the small watches of the morning NAFILAH for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory(17/7
The context of the above negates any notion of 'spoils of war'.
We also need to look at 8/41
And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.
Notice that '(in war)' is an extrapolation. The text not only doesn't contain 'in war', it also has a more denying phrase which is 'from anything' (min shay). As for the word 'booty' , the word 'ghanim' which appears in the story of Musa (20/1 where it means sheep. It's similar to when Allah uses the word 'an'aam' to mean 'cattle' and also 'pleasures, benefits'.
None of these things refer to anything you loot off people. This is a clear interpolation perpertrated by the enemies of Al-Quraan in order to detract from its message. However, applying Quranic internal principles, we can easily transcend this.
thanks and peace.
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To be fair this is the latest, Progressive Muslims Translation of the verse. If mquran has any argument then I suggest he take that with them.
They ask you regarding the spoils of war, Say ?The spoils of war are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
So can you translate above for me mquran?
Regards,
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Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
Regards,
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So can you translate above for me mquran?
What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
This guy really cracks me up, I have to say. The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
In the UK, 2 million people marched against the war in iraq. The war still went on.
In the USA, the Patriots Acts effectively nullifies any right to 'dissent'. In the 50ies McCarthyism demonised communists in such a way that the word is almost a bad word in the states even now.
Every polity has laws. If you break those laws, your freedom is gone. Lets not let SLOGANS equal REALITIES.
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Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
Regards,Read what FREE-MINDS.ORG is all about before you interpret it your way. Anyways, there is something missing in it though, i.e. the fact that the quran is used as the criterion. I think the site maintainers should include that.
<<<"...O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common agreement between us and between you; that 1) we do not serve except God, and 2) do not set up anything at all with Him, and 3) that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God...." (The Message 364)
This website has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone...
This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone.
Many of you may outwardly be content with your current faith or that which you inherited from your parents and community...but to some out there, there will always be a tugging at the back of their mind that 'there is something more', and that 'some things don't always make sense'...
If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...>>>
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Peace mq, lt, all...
LT, it was an interesting discussion...thank you!
Mq,
Thank you for explaining it to us again...
What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
It makes sense to me with the explanations provided...
The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
Count Victor Lustig sold the Eiffel tower twice )
Every polity has laws. If you break those laws, your freedom is gone. Lets not let SLOGANS equal REALITIES.
Indeed...
Regards,
Nadia -
What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
Really? Very creative translation mquran!
Lets put it in the verse
They ask you regarding the "additional benefits", Say ?additional benefits" are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Yes that makes sense doesn't it mquran!
Previously you said it was PROFIT.
They ask you regarding the PROFIT, Say PROFIT are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Yes, thats makes sense too!
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
This guy really cracks me up, I have to say. The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
You are really are CAVEMAN aren't you? How is that related to FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND, without getting your head lopped off? I did not realise DINOSAURS like you still walk the Earth! -) Yes we had a good laugh at you too in our office. You provided with us some lunch time entertainment! I say it again I am so glad that I live in a country that gives me the FREEDOM to SPEAK MY MIND!
Regards,
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Read what FREE-MINDS.ORG is all about before you interpret it your way. Anyways, there is something missing in it though, i.e. the fact that the quran is used as the criterion. I think the site maintainers should include that.
Thats a good one mate! Read FREE-MINDS before you interpret it! -)
Free Minds is FREE MINDS - comprehend? If you abdicate YOUR FREE MIND to scritpure then it is not FREE MINDS is it? and one more thing IT INVITES PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS INCLUDING ATHEISTS! - DUH!You must QUESTION EVERYTHING FOR YOU TO BE FREE-MINDS!
Regards,
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What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
It makes sense to me with the explanations provided...
Good for you Nadia, but I am not convinced by the arguments. If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war" but don't try to be creative and translate it to something that does not make sense because you don't want to translate as "spoils of war" because of modern day sensibilities...
The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
Count Victor Lustig sold the Eiffel tower twice
Oh Nadia, how is that anyway related having the FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND? How is that related to PERSONAL LIBERTY?
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war"
Thats what the posts have been about...the word war is NOT there, people are trying to interpret it to see how it fits without putting in something which is NOT there...
Oh Nadia, how is that anyway related having the FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND? How is that related to PERSONAL LIBERTY?
roll I was telling mq that the eiffel tower was sold twice for great gobs of cash, about human gullibility...are you trying to tell me i was saying something different then? That somehow i was trying to relate it to LADY LIBERTY and KEEPING THE TORCH ALOFT? Get a grip my friend...let's not get carried away here with a tad too much zealousness...
In retrospect, just the fact that you had to ask me "how is that anyway related" should have been the first clue...
Regards,
Nadia -
Peace Lotetree,
If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war"
Thats what the posts have been about...the word war is NOT there, people are trying to interpret it to see how it fits without putting in something which is NOT there...
I am not convinced. Rashad Khalifa, the Great Hadiths and Sunnah rejector, and the native Arabic translator, translated it as spoils of war. And he knew more about Quranic Arabic than the rest. No Nadia, I am not convinced. Chasing after root words can allow us to be very creative with the translations. But I wait for Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation of the Quran to be persuaded on this..
This is the literal translation
Literal They ask/question you about the spoils/gifts . Say "The spoils/gifts (are) to God and the messenger, so fear and obey God and correct/repair that what is between you, and obey God and His messenger, if you were believing."
Gift does not make sense at all but the spoils does. And spoils only makes sense in the context of war as Rashad and others understood it. But I will see how Edip Yuksel tries to translate this...
I was telling mq that the eiffel tower was sold twice for great gobs of cash, about human gullibility...are you trying to tell me i was saying something different then?
Sorry Nadia I did not get your Great. Pardon me -)
Regards,
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Lote-Tree is right. This place is FREE-minds. We are then free to be irrational. Of course we are.
Im very surprised LT isnt a sunni. He talks about RK, 'the great hadith and sunnah rejector' as if that fact alone makes one infallible in translating al-quraan. This is a non-sequietur indeed.
I've already asked LT to see RK's rendition of 4/3 in which the phrase 'thier mothers' was interpolated into the verse, but of course, true to form, whatever doesn't fit LT's mindset will immediately be rejected.
Since LT considers my rendition to be 'reformist' and 'creative', I then invite him to answer the following questions regarding interpretation. We will see how systematically he thinks, insha Allah.
LT, if you please
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Does al-quraan have a set method of interpretation?
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If so, what are some of the principles which one can employ to arrive at a correct interpretation?
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Kindly tell me, what method did YOU employ to verify the interpretation of 'spoils of war'. Unless the Quranic principle of verification (17/36) has become too morally unadvanced for you, I guess you must need some method of verification. Kindly enlighten us.,
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Read what FREE-MINDS.ORG is all about before you interpret it your way. Anyways, there is something missing in it though, i.e. the fact that the quran is used as the criterion. I think the site maintainers should include that.
Thats a good one mate! Read FREE-MINDS before you interpret it! -)
Free Minds is FREE MINDS - comprehend? If you abdicate YOUR FREE MIND to scritpure then it is not FREE MINDS is it?You don't seem to understand, do you? You are just blabing for the sake it! I am quite sure you are going to blab again in response to this. Or else surprise me.
and one more thing IT INVITES PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS INCLUDING ATHEISTS! - DUH!
Yeah it invites all faiths including athiests, but to what? DUH! Read again and don't just blab.
You must QUESTION EVERYTHING FOR YOU TO BE FREE-MINDS!
And who the hell are you to tell me this? If I didn't question, then I would follow any Tom, Dick or Harry, or I would start worshiping you!
Anwar Azim
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Hello LoteTree,
FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY not important to you?
Don't you like the FREEDOM to be what YOU want to be instead of people telling you WHAT TO BE?
Are you getting sick of FREEDOM?
How did you figure out such derogations? Quite shocking when it comes to your intuitions or perhaps you misplaced your reasoning.
You can speak all you want about Freedom and Personal Liberty, but how do you live by such principles? Aren?t there not rules and standards that governs everyone?s lives? If yes, then who is governing you to live by such standards? If not, then you couldn?t possibly be living in an uninhabited jungle or an unknown planet without any bearings whatsoever. I sincerely doubt that you understand the gist of Freedom or Personal Liberty when it comes to simply Speaking Your Mind out.
What does NUCLEAR techonology to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND?
Again, you lost your reasoning power. On both occasions you nit-picked what I wrote in my previous post, hence your incomplete understanding. Perhaps I should have posted the other half of my previous post on another thread which references ?evolving?; my bad.
Here?s what you wrote much earlier
Well, Khalil, you might not see "God" in my face I am afraid, unless if you consider a Yoda look alike "beautiful" As for myself I don't classify people as ugly or beautiful when I meet them. I will always meet people as individuals. But I can say Angelina Jolie is beautiful though I have not met her.
A defamed statement.
On another forum, here?s what you wrote
You give out blankets so that God will pat you on the back for doing a good deed. For you giving about blankets is about reward. And as I said it is about Ego satisfaction. Can you ever conceive giving without expecting a reward? The Apple tree in your garden provides you with apples - what does it expect in return?
Perhaps you didn?t care to contemplate on what the tree expects in return? Think!
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Lote-Tree is right. This place is FREE-minds. We are then free to be irrational. Of course we are.
Hey mquran, belief in a God is not rational. Read philosophy! -) How could you say this after you said he don't trust your REASON? If you don't trust your reason how did you come to reject hadiths!
As for your translation you have no credibility for me since you don't trust your REASON. But I wait for Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation for me to be persuaded.
Regards,
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Yeah it invites all faiths including athiests, but to what? DUH! Read again
and don't just blab....erm to discuss GOD and RELIGION FREELY, duh!!! -)
You must QUESTION EVERYTHING FOR YOU TO BE FREE-MINDS!
And who the hell are you to tell me this? If I didn't question, then I would follow any Tom, Dick or Harry, or I would start worshiping you!
Anwar AzimI told you so that WE CAN ALL FREELY SAY "And who the hell are you to tell me this?" -)
Regards,
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Hey mquran, belief in a God is not rational. Read philosophy! How could you say this after you said he don't trust your REASON? If you don't trust your reason how did you come to reject hadiths!
Philosophy ? Is that the thing with Plato, Aristotle etc ?
Sorry, but allow me to articulate my position so as to remove confusion, if possible.
Al-Quraan is very clear about USING reason (if, then therefore, problem solving)..it says those who dont use it are the worst of beasts (8/22) and those in hell will complain about NOT using it (67/10)
So I try to be rational where and when I can.
However, I eschew rationalISM. Rationalism is where reason becomes the be-all and end-all of one's criteria. Musa had the same problem, he was questioning Allah's servant who was given knowledge from His presence (18/60-82), using his limited reasoning.
So yes, rational but not rationalIST.
As for your translation you have no credibility for me since you don't trust your REASON. But I wait for Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation for me to be persuaded.
That's fine, DON'T give me credibility. I have no problem with that. However, I am bringing the question now to YOUR doorstep, sir. Don't forget, you asserted that Al-Quraan talks about spoils and is therefore morally unevolved to meet your superior standards.
My questions again
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Does al-quraan have a set method of interpretation?
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If so, what are some of the principles which one can employ to arrive at a correct interpretation?
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Kindly tell me, what method did YOU employ to verify the interpretation of 'spoils of war'. Unless the Quranic principle of verification (17/36) has become too morally unadvanced for you, I guess you must need some method of verification. Kindly enlighten us.,
These questions, if you're unable to answer them, simply prove that your slogans of '21st century morally-advanced human' is nothing but bunkum. For all your calls to rationalism, you can't even allow your method to be interrogated. Unless of course you have no method and you simply choose to the worst possible (if also the most irrational one) just to denounce al-quraan. Sadly, al-quraan is a protected book. Even the methodology of interpretation is protected....
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Hello Danish,
You can speak all you want about Freedom and Personal Liberty, but how do you live by such principles?
Hey?...erm...Quite happily Danish -)
Look Danish I have lived under an oppressive government where my freedom to speak my mind was denied. If you think my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced, then please put foward your argument to convince me that I should go back and live under the oppressive government that I have left behind. If you can convince me then I would happily go back and live there -)I sincerely doubt that you understand the gist of Freedom or Personal Liberty when it comes to simply Speaking Your Mind out.
I understand enough Danish. That is why I CHOOSE live in a liberal society where I have the liberty to speak my mind. But if you understand FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY more than me then Danish please teach me! I will be a willing student.
What does NUCLEAR techonology to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND?
Again, you lost your reasoning power.
Help me then Danish to regain my reasoning power...
Here?s what you wrote much earlier
Well, Khalil, you might not see "God" in my face I am afraid, unless if you consider a Yoda look alike "beautiful" As for myself I don't classify people as ugly or beautiful when I meet them. I will always meet people as individuals. But I can say Angelina Jolie is beautiful though I have not met her.
A defamed statement.
Oh Danish that thread is written in jest mate!! -)
Do you not understand any of the humour that been posted in the humour thread?On another forum, here?s what you wrote
You give out blankets so that God will pat you on the back for doing a good deed. For you giving about blankets is about reward. And as I said it is about Ego satisfaction. Can you ever conceive giving without expecting a reward? The Apple tree in your garden provides you with apples - what does it expect in return?
Perhaps you didn?t care to contemplate on what the tree expects in return? Think!
Hey Danish why did not respond to that thread so that I would have given you an answer! -)
When I said "are you sick of freedom" Danish, I meant it as a jest. I did not mean to offend you. I thought you would have responded with humour too! but I guess you did not. So bow my head to that...
Regards,
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So I try to be rational where and when I can.
But you don't have any TRUST in your REASON!
However, I eschew rationalISM. Rationalism is where reason becomes the be-all and end-all of one's criteria. Musa had the same problem, he was questioning Allah's servant who was given knowledge from His presence (18/60-82), using his limited reasoning.
You have to exhaust all RATIONAL thinking mquran in your mind for you to have an INSIGHT into the nature of GOD and to gain some understanding of God, because GOD is beyond human reason.
My questions again
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Does al-quraan have a set method of interpretation?
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If so, what are some of the principles which one can employ to arrive at a correct interpretation?
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Kindly tell me, what method did YOU employ to verify the interpretation of 'spoils of war'. Unless the Quranic principle of verification (17/36) has become too morally unadvanced for you, I guess you must need some method of verification. Kindly enlighten us.,
Since you don't have any credibility for me, I will have to wait for Edip Yuksel's Reformist Translation of the Quran, for me to be convinced by any of the arguments you put forward. So wait and see...and then we will take it from there -)
Regards,
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