Salaat Solved.
-
Yorite mz!
Good point! With either understanding it works! More flexibility! I think we now have the "salat solution"!!!
We'll see what criticism is left, and once thats through we'll get an article going, going through everty single itsy bitsy detail, get it posted in the articles section, and use that article as a base for discussion in "THE THREAD" - regular updates. So that people new to free minds can see clearly what salat is, coz the hard work has been done for them! And thats it, we may have a solid understanding of salat that no sectarian can even come in sniffing range!
Now I can bet people are gonna come on here and say that we should let people find their way through themselves, and see what is best for themselves, so all I would say is that if the correct definition has been found, why not promote it, instead of letting other promote prostration towards the kaba?
BTW, am I going a bit OTT with the exclamation marks?
-
Salaam NATU,
Good stuff,an article for a quick/easy understanding for everybody-i think.
Thanks.
-
Peace be upon you Natu,
Quote
it is a discussion with the God through the PROCESS(salaat). What is being dealt with is the AGE OLD/CROSS CULTURAL concept of meditation.Fair enough. Why don?t we call it the discussion process then? Problem solved.
I do not think it is the best statement. First, my position is that salaat = process, period. Anything else added to the word "process" is just the implication. With that said, discussion process is not wrong, but it leaves it open to be regularly talking to other humans. This is not what I see from the God's message.
There must be more thought put into the TIMING , which is when the day and night MERGE. It is deeply symbolic, and should be studied more. It is rather an INNER discussion with the God, not outwardly talking to humans.
5812 might shed some light.
So again, I have it as salaat=process, but the implication is that it is the process of meditation, which is the true learning process that gives us enlightenment.
Quote
Anyway, the concept of "hajja" deals with the "discussions" which are referred to as "debates" (hajja) as oppossed to arguing(jidala).Here, I believe we are actually talking about three distinctly different words Argument (jidala); debate (hajja); and salat (discussion process).
Argument = Quarel/Dispute = jidala
Debate = To discuss opposing points = hajja
Discussion = Consideration of a subject by a group = salaat
Yes, that is what I was trying to point out, we are talking about three different words, the word "hajja" already deals with outward verbal reasoning, salaat does not come to overlay the same position, it is describing something different.
Quote
Lastly, "Al Salaat Al Wusta" indicates to us that the process(salaat) is what balances us, we must not be too far into the conscious of daytime or the subconscious of nighttime, but the MIDDLE state, or the MEDI- State.The balance is describing the arrival of a general consensus, where opinions are balanced amongst the group of discussers.
What you are describing is already stated under mutual consultation, no need to use salaat to say the same thing. This reading will reject anything that does not fit.
-
Salaams idol,Natu,
Idol said
?5812 might shed some light.?5812-13.
O you who believe when you consult in private the Messenger spend something before your private consultaion in cherity that will be better for you and purer But if not you find then verily Allah Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
Are you afraid to spend before your private consultation in cherity if then not you do (it) and has forgiven Allah (to) you then hold/undretake the discussion and keep it pure (the advice thereof) and obey Allah and His Messenger and Allah is All-Aware of what you do.I don't see this odd in any way, but we are only playing with words?
Gods Blessings.
-
Salaams Ali ,
your not far offIslam is the ?deen?, or the system, of God to submit , ?salaat? is the discussion/s of how to deal with everything in the World in accordance with this system and ?zakaat? is to stick to the solutions agreed to in the discussion by the members rather then changing them for your own benefits.
Salaa is the advice/view solution by one or more people for betterment (or you can say it is a solution to something),and thus salaat is the discussion to select the best solutions by the people to get the best one for the benefit of those concerned/all. Which is then agreed to by the peoples.
In the Advancing/democratic countries it is carried out most of the time (i think) even in companies and organisations - but unfortunately we muslims carry out a ritual .
I think the early muslim rulers changed the whole concept (my view only) to have their say as the only solution to things to keep power in their own hands rather then the people and thus put the muslims unto the road of the ritual or something.
I think.
Gods Blessings.
-
Peace bro mz357
Idolfree said
What you are describing is already stated under mutual consultation, no need to use salaat to say the same thing. This reading will reject anything that does not fit.
Discusion works in all of the salat verses better than any other, however I believe this point quoted above is ver important. My understanding is that the arabic word for "mutual consultation" may have a more appropriate meaning in the lexicons. Other than this, Salat = Discussion. End of story.
-
peace all,
Firstly, "atw al zkw" cannot be translated as "keep them pure". To say such a thing is completely baseless.
Secondly, salat=singular, not plural. To say such a thing is completely baseless.
Thirdly, salat is not just for believers. I thoroughly demonstrated this in my latest article. It is only for believers if we are talking about the regular/timed salat.
And lastly, for those who think salat=discussion if they think its a blanket meaning, i.e. in all occurrences, then I suggest reviewing all occurrences again.
Wakas
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htm -
Salaams waqas,
you said
"Firstly, "atw al zkw" cannot be translated as "keep them pure". To say such a thing is completely baseless.Secondly, salat=singular, not plural. To say such a thing is completely baseless.
Thirdly, salat is not just for believers. I thoroughly demonstrated this in my latest article. It is only for believers if we are talking about the regular/timed salat.
And lastly, for those who think salat=discussion if they think its a blanket meaning, i.e. in all occurrences, then I suggest reviewing all occurrences again."
Whether we use Aidid "keep it pure" or your "and bring forth the betterment"
Doesn't matter an ayota.
Second singularity/pluratiy does sometimes change when shifting from one lingo to another.With your level of edu you should know it-i think.
There is only one definition of Salaat and not one for believers and one for non-believers.
And no you can never have a blanket meaning in all cases when shifting between two lingoes-i don't think, but Discussion is working out more then any other i think.but give me an accurance where it hasn't worked please ,it will set the record streight.
Lastly you havn't as yet i think come up with anything concrete on Salaat ,have you?
Salaams.
-
Peace be upon you all,
Mz
salaat? is the discussion/s of how to deal with everything in the World in accordance with this system and ?zakaat? is to stick to the solutions agreed to in the discussion by the members rather then changing them for your own benefits
But do you see how this explanation forces you to leave HAJJ (the debate) out of the picture? The coming together to0 debate(discuss) the God's plan/words in order to make life better? It does not work, respectfully. Trust me, I know it feels really good right now because you found something that seems like it fits momentarily, but as time progresses, you will see that it does not fit.
Please, those who have not done so, do some research on meditation.
-
Peace be upon you,
Please take time to think about WHY DAWN and DUSK are mentioned as the times.
These are not the best times for discussion. Isnt it better to discuss during daily life, at work and other places we go to to meet people? And at night we sleep and study. So IN BETWEEN those times, just after waking and just before bed, the times where we are not out in the world, or sleeping, we meditate, that is contemplate on the WHOLE(God) in order to get the answers from our call(dua). This is the process by which we LEARN in life.
-
Salaams waqas,
All right.
Gods Blessings.
-
Peace.
Ayman Wrote
Discussion and oration are both methods of "salat". Both of those methods are ways of LEARNING. Discussions can happen at anytime but people can endlessly discuss things and get stuck on the same points. There is a need to go back and reflect during special times so that one can bring new ideas into the discussions.
This brings me to the explanation as to why we are to recite the Quran at dawn ? ?so that one can bring new ideas into the discussions? (OMG!) So that special time to get the fresh ideas for the discussions is dawn, and the source of the fresh ideas is the Quran!
Idolfree1 wrote
I do not think it is the best statement. First, my position is that salaat = process, period. Anything else added to the word "process" is just the implication. With that said, discussion process is not wrong, but it leaves it open to be regularly talking to other humans. This is not what I see from the God's message.
Process is just a general term for anything that is done, so hajja (debate) is a process of interpersonal knowledge verification, and salat (discussion) is a process of interpersonal knowledge transaction. Charity is also a process of taking from your own pocket and giving to someone else, a transaction has been made, and this is a process. So, in my opinion, saying that salat = process doesn?t give it much definition at all, because we can tell from the context of the verses containing salat that it is a process, it gives no further indication as to what the process is to do with.
Idolfree1 wrote
There must be more thought put into the TIMING , which is when the day and night MERGE. It is deeply symbolic, and should be studied more. It is rather an INNER discussion with the God, not outwardly talking to humans.
Brainwave has been uploaded towards the end of this post?
Idolfree1 wrote
But do you see how this explanation forces you to leave HAJJ (the debate) out of the picture? The coming together to0 debate(discuss) the God's plan/words in order to make life better? It does not work, respectfully. Trust me, I know it feels really good right now because you found something that seems like it fits momentarily, but as time progresses, you will see that it does not fit.
I would disagree here, I originally thought I was just jumping onto the bandwagon, but the more you look into it, the more convincing it gets. As I explained earlier hajj (debate) and salat (discussion) are two distinctly different things. Hajja (debate) is a process of interpersonal knowledge verification, and salat is a process of interpersonal knowledge transaction. The two are distinctly different. If you are talking to a stranger asking him for directions, he tells you, and then you ask for more clarification in more detail, e.g. how far is it, will it be open at this time etc., you would never think of this as a debate, you would say it is a discussion, because information is not being verified, it is being transacted.
Idolfree1 wrote
Please take time to think about WHY DAWN and DUSK are mentioned as the times.
These are not the best times for discussion. Isnt it better to discuss during daily life, at work and other places we go to to meet people? And at night we sleep and study. So IN BETWEEN those times, just after waking and just before bed, the times where we are not out in the world, or sleeping, we meditate, that is contemplate on the WHOLE(God) in order to get the answers from our call(dua). This is the process by which we LEARN in life.
Now for the brainwave I mentioned earlier. WHY DAWN and DUSK? Here?s a perfectly logical explanation which gives further evidence that salat = discussion. You said these are not the best times for discussion. God knows that people live in families, he knows that the parent/parents go to work during the day, he knows that they have to spend time earning a living, and they cannot perform the salat (discussion) while they are working, e.g. Homer Simpson would not be able to do salat during the day because he has to focus on his job of making sure the power plant is safe in working order and has great responsibility over others, and he needs to concentrate on his job. When at work during the day, you cannot do salat simultaneously, because full concentration is required for the job. Similarly, when the kids go to school, they can?t do salat because they are concentrating on their work. Coming to the topic of meeting people, when are the times when it is more or less certain that people would have others around them to discuss things? At home with their families, when everyone is back from their daily commitments. So that ensures that discussion can take place, because the times around dawn and dusk are times when family members are usually together to do the salat (discussion). Further evidence that salat = discussion is found in 11114 ? ?the adjacent parts of the night?. Why before dawn and after dusk? The reason is because eating breakfast and evening meal would in the natural situation require light for hunting animals etc., and that is after sunrise. A discussion can easily be held before sunrise and after sunset, because at those times, there is sufficient light to know what is going on. So salat at dusk and dawn is a family thing, where the social unit becomes stronger in faith, and these social units work together forming a community of strong believers. Meditation however can be extremely difficult to do for some, and does not have the benefit of forming strong family bonds to create directly a society of strong believers. Salat does not have to be translated as ?family discussion? although this may apply to many at dawn and dusk. 3356 obviously cannot be translated as process or meditate, because God does not process on Muhammad, and he does not meditate on Muhammad either. What he does do is salat (discuss) on him. And further evidence that it is discussion is found in the fact that God is with his controllers. Now going back to the point of debates and discussions. God would obviously not be debating with his powers because his powers would not dare to criticise and try to verify what God says to them, they are discussing, knowledge is being transacted.
Salat = discussion is the solution that works perfectly in every verse, and it also explains as I have just demonstrated why salat is performed at times of Dawn and Dusk. All praise is due to God almighty.
-
Peace,
I have tried my best to follow on this thread and I personally think that idolfree has a good point. Meditation is very important and that would fit better, to meditate on a matter is to think about it and to meditate as a community could mean to simply discuss as Natu is saying.
Try meditation and see if that works, speech is powerful and discussions are good but meditation includes thought and reasoning in our mind then actually speaking our thoughts after we have mediatated on a subject, this is simply a language barrier and a play of words. Discussion restricts the meaning i think.
This is not a simple one, God 'discussing' just does not sound right, he can will it and it will be, God is not involved in things like this, if he was then the understanding would mean that God is teaching the powers about the Prophet, I just don't get it. Let me go back and see what other translators have interpreted the verse as.
And what is the problem wit 'God and His angels/powers help and support the prophet"?!
Nural
-
Meditation is very important and that would fit better
The evidence clearly proves otherwise.
And what is the problem wit 'God and His angels/powers help and support the prophet"?!
There's no problem with God and his powers helping and supporting the prophet, but there's just a tiny little catch Nural, it doesn't say that in the Quran anywhere.
-
Salaamun alaikum Natu and all,
Thanks for alerting me to the thread. Here are my notes on salaat
- 5/106 shows that as-salaat is done with even those who DON'T believe (because the verse is addressed to those who believe and says to co-opt people outside the group)
-5/106 shows that as-salaat has something to do with agreeing to something, even committing to something.
-9/11 shows that 'al-kafireen' can establish as-salaat, produce az-zakaat and can be considered 'brothers in ad-deen'.
-5/6 gives instructions to those who believe, to wash oneself before actually doing something.
-29/45-46 shows that as-salaat DOES include argumentation (from the word tujadiloo in 46)
-11/114 tells me that as-salaat is done twice daily and involves acts of 'ihsaan'
that's all i can think of for now..
thanks and salam
-
peace brother mq,
5106 does not show those things of slw. The word "after" is there, thus the only thing one could infer from that sign is that slw was a regular occurrence and finite. Unless their is a grammatical implication implying that one would hold them after the slw (i.e. their slw), but I dont think thats the case.
Wakas
