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  4. A good muslim ... ??

A good muslim ... ??

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    unknownuser
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    Salaams Tanveer,

    You are Right,Made Sense to me.Thanks.

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      Ali_Omar
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      Dear tanveermd,

      Quote
      IMO muslims are allowed to describe themselves as muslims for identification purposes, and also to make it clear who the hypocrites or the disbelievers or the rejecters are.

      Firstly, if no one declares themselves muslim then it will be impossible to discover the hypocrites. Only when muslims describe themselves as muslims, can one figure out who is trying to deceive after declaring themselves muslim.

      AO
      Yes, exactly!
      If you declare yourself to be something you are not, then who decides when you have ?over-evaluated? yourself? Again, where are the limits? Who knows the limits?
      Who are ?qualified?, you or me, or God?
      Hypocrites may only be found among those who declare themselves to be ?something?, all the rest will not qualify as hypocrites. I.e. they can not be hypocrites!
      Of course, as I have said earlier, you can call yourself a ?Muslim?, anybody can, but then, are you a hypocrite as well, or not? Who decides that part? Yourself?

      Quote
      Secondly, if muslims do not identify themselves by declaring themselves muslim, then muslims will not be able to help other muslims by being their allies, giving them charity, being friends, getting married, establishing a community, etc. How can muslims be allies when they cannot identify a muslim from a disbeliever or rejecter. No one can read minds,,????..

      AO
      Wrong, God can read minds, and God is the only one.
      If you marry one who call him/herself a ?Muslim? do you marry someone who is a hypocrite or not? If you choose allies who call themselves ?Muslims?, are you choosing hypocrites or not?
      If you base your choice on actions and behavior, even though they do not call themselves ?Muslims? you can rest assured, you are not choosing hypocrites.

      Quote
      Thirdly, it is for the protection of muslims too. In a state of war between the muslims and the disbelievers or rejecters, innocent muslims might get killed if muslims cannot readily identify if someone is muslim or not.

      AO
      Let?s take the war between Iraq and Iran, who were the innocent ?Muslims??
      They all called themselves ?Mulsims?, and a lot of people were killed. Were only hypocrites, rejecters, disbelievers killed, and how was it established that they were hypocrites, rejecters, disbelievers? If someone declared ?I am a Muslim? was he spared? And those killed what did they declare themselves as?
      How come so many were killed if they all declared to be ?Muslims??

      God described hypocrites from their actions and behavior, and the virtues of ?Muslims? through their actions and behavior, in order for us to understand that it was the actions and behavior of people that was important, not what they called themselves.

      Quote
      So The God allows muslims to describe themselves as a muslim, at the same time giving them a severe warning that if they misuse the label they will have a severe retribution.

      AO
      Yes!
      And how is the situation in the ?Muslim? world today?
      Could it be due to some of the effect of the retribution, in this World already?
      Could it be that people are calling themselves ?Muslim? and set their own, different limits, even though they are all reading the same scripture?

      Again, WHO DECIDES WHAT THE LIMITS ARE BETWEEN A MUSLIM AND A NON-MUSLIM?

      YOU, ME, GOD?

      I feel I must repeat again that I have no objections to you calling yourself a ?Muslim?. Please feel free to do that.
      However, to me it is meaningless what you or anybody else call themselves. I don?t judge anyone in that matter, I leave that to God.
      As you mentioned, God gives a serious warning to those who call themselves ?Muslim? wrongfully, and I do take that warning seriously!
      Maybe it is advisable also for others?

      I believe verses from Sura 49 would be worth considering, maybe in particular verses 49.1 and 49.11, but they are better studied in connection with others from the same Sura.

      Best regards

      Ali Omar

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        unknownuser
        wrote on last edited by
        #43

        Dear Ali Omar,

        If you declare yourself to be something you are not, then who decides when you have ?over-evaluated? yourself? Again, where are the limits? Who knows the limits?
        Who are ?qualified?, you or me, or God?

        Again, WHO DECIDES WHAT THE LIMITS ARE BETWEEN A MUSLIM AND A NON-MUSLIM?

        YOU, ME, GOD?

        When someone declares one is muslim, the Criterion (Al-Quran) can be used to decide if that person is indeed muslim or not, simple. And then if the label is misused, there will be severe retribution from The God.

        2212 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and warners, and He sent down with them the Scripture with the facts so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing.

        324 Did you not see those who were given a portion of the Scripture being invited to God's Scripture to judge between them, then a group of them turns away while they are adverse?

        458 God orders you to deliver anything you have been entrusted with to its owners. And if you judge between the people, then you shall judge with justice. It is always the best that God prescribes for you. God is Hearer, Seer.

        4105 We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.

        551 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth.
        552 And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you.

        God described hypocrites from their actions and behavior, and the virtues of ?Muslims? through their actions and behavior, in order for us to understand that it was the actions and behavior of people that was important, not what they called themselves.

        Agreed, but this is not the topic of discussion.

        I feel I must repeat again that I have no objections to you calling yourself a ?Muslim?. Please feel free to do that.
        However, to me it is meaningless what you or anybody else call themselves. I don?t judge anyone in that matter, I leave that to God.

        Unless you have forgotten, the topic of this discussion is whether a muslim can describe oneself as a muslim or not. You have yet to produce a SINGLE ayat showing a muslim cannot describe oneself as muslim. Plus you keep making it personal. The topic of discussion is not "judging others" or "hypocrisy". So please stop going on tangents and stop getting personal and stick to the topic. If you would like to discuss all these other subjects you can start another thread.

        I would like to remind you of the following once again for the zillionth time

        Show me ONE ayat that says a muslim cannot call himself/herself muslim.

        Also I am asking you to quote the ayat that prove the underlined parts of what you claim i.e. the laws according to you

        Ali Omar wrote
        Anyone who declares him-/herself, or somebody else, a ?Muslim? or a ?non-Muslim? is taking on the role of God, thereby committing idolatry, with him-/herself as the idol.

        Ali Omar wrote
        It is not for any human to define him-/herself, or anyone else, a ?Muslim?, let alone good or bad ?Muslim?.

        You conveniently keep ignoring my requests to provide your proof in the form of ayat from Al-Quran for the underlined parts of your statements above. I am not talking about judging others but calling yourself a muslim.

        Regards,

        Tanveer

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          Ali_Omar
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          Dear tanveermd,

          There is no ayat in the Qur?an, specifically mentioning that you can not call yourself a ?Muslim?.
          Therefore please feel free to add another ?Muslim? to the many others who feel they are qualified. (for the millionth time)
          It may be advisable to take God?s warnings seriously though.

          Now, also please feel free to answer some of my many questions from earlier, in addition to two more.

          Please take a look at the following verses, out of many similar ones

          (17.23) Do not make with God another god, or you will find yourself disgraced, abandoned.

          (17.27) And give the relative his due, and the poor, and the wayfarer; and do not waste excessively.

          (17.2 Those who waste excessively are brothers to the devils, and the devil was to his Lord a rejecter.

          17.29) And if you turn away from them to seek a mercy from your Lord which you desire, then say to them a gentle saying.

          (17.30) And do not make your hand stingy by holding it to your neck, nor shall you lay it fully open so you become in despair and regret.

          (17.3 And do not walk in the land arrogantly, for you will not penetrate the Earth, nor will you reach the mountains in height.

          Question
          When is something becoming so important to you, that it becomes ?like a god??
          Where do you set the limits so that you know that you follow what these verses say, in a way accepted by God?

          Best regards

          Ali Omar

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            unknownuser
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            Salaams Tanveer,ali,all,

            Br.Tanveer said
            "If one does not obey The God and does not do good works then one is not muslim, no matter what one calls oneself."

            And there are people of other cultures who may believe in God and do do good works e.t.c arn't they then Muslim whether they use the Arabic Terminology (muslim)or something other in their own lingo.

            Yes, they are the real muslims

            262 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens; any one of them who believes in God and the Last Day, and does good work, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
            572 "Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve."


            "Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones."(16125)

            You validate what he/she is saying by using Al-Quran as the criterion and observing their deeds. Yes, the hypocrites will have a painful retribution. So The God allows muslims (arabic-those who to submit) to describe themselves as a muslim(submitters - in english), at the same time giving them a severe warning that if they misuse the label (if they lie)they will have a severe retribution.

            After declaring that one is a muslim, one can fit the bill by following Al-Quran and doing good works and staying away from the forbidden, thereby proving one's declaration. No, people should not take his word without hesitation but should see if that person proves his/hers declaration by obeying The God and actually doing good deeds and staying away from the forbidden as decreed by The God in the Criterion.

            Br.Ali said
            IMO muslims are allowed to describe themselves as muslims for identification purposes, and also to make it clear who the hypocrites or the disbelievers or the rejecters are.

            Look at your two arguments
            You are both getting there the same answer ,mind not much difference left,is there?

            Salaams..

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              unknownuser
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              Dear mz357,

              Br.Ali said
              IMO muslims are allowed to describe themselves as muslims for identification purposes, and also to make it clear who the hypocrites or the disbelievers or the rejecters are.

              No that is not what brother ali said, that was my quote that he quoted from my post

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                unknownuser
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                Dear Ali Omar,

                When is something becoming so important to you, that it becomes ?like a god??

                You made a statement a while ago saying that if someone declares one is muslim then that is committing idolatry and that no one can describe themselves as muslims

                Ali Omar wrote
                Anyone who declares him-/herself, or somebody else, a ?Muslim? or a ?non-Muslim? is taking on the role of God, thereby committing idolatry, with him-/herself as the idol.

                Ali Omar wrote
                It is not for any human to define him-/herself, or anyone else, a ?Muslim?, let alone good or bad ?Muslim?.

                All I said in response was prove what you are saying from Al-Quran. Subsequently I quoted many ayat from Al-Quran that clearly allow a muslim to describe oneself as a muslim. Just because I dared to challenge your law and requested you to judge by Al-Quran, you start accusing me of making it so important that it becomes "like a god". Please fear The God before accusing someone of idolatry. All I was trying to do is to search for the truth and clarify the matter for myself and yourself and everyone else from the only criterion, Al-Quran.

                There is no ayat in the Qur?an, specifically mentioning that you can not call yourself a ?Muslim?.

                Agreed. Finally you answered my request. Thank you.

                Therefore please feel free to add another ?Muslim? to the many others who feel they are qualified.

                Nowhere have I made any remark about my state or described my state, so why do you keep on making personal attacks and remarks? I was just trying to find out the truth of the matter by discussion from Al-Quran.

                Where do you set the limits so that you know that you follow what these verses say, in a way accepted by God?

                By using Al-Quran as the criterion, simple.

                2185 A month in early autumn, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion.
                34 From before as a guidance for the people, and He sent down the Criterion.
                830 O you who believe, if you are aware of God, He will make for you a criterion, and He will cancel your sins and forgive you. God is possessor of great favour.

                Allah clearly asks us to judge among each other by Al-Quran. You are accusing me of committing idolatry, please use Al-Quran as the criterion to judge, and show me from Al-Quran how I have committed idolatry.

                4105 We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you
                547 And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
                548 And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
                550 And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones.
                551 So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth.
                1036 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?"
                3826 Therefore, you shall judge among the people with truth, and do not follow desire, lest it diverts you from the path of God.

                Peace,

                Tanveer

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                  unknownuser
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  Salaamun alaikum Ali Omar and all,

                  I think there is a huge misunderstanding going on. Of course someone who clearly does not surrender or submit to The God, and does not obey The God, or is a disbeliever, or rejecter, CANNOT declare oneself as a muslim. If this kind of person declares oneself a muslim falsely and deceives others, then of course that is completely wrong and there will be terrible painful retribution from The God.

                  My point was that someone who does submit and surrender to The God and does good works, i.e. really qualifies as a muslim according to the criteria laid down in Al-Quran, has been allowed by The God to declare oneself a muslim. However once that muslim declares oneself a muslim, he/she should not misuse the title/description and deliberately deviate from the straight path, for then there will be severe retribution from The God.

                  I am talking only about a muslim who qualifies as a muslim according to Al-Quran declaring oneself muslim e.g. the disciples of prophet Jesus, prophet Muhammad, the muslim Nomads, prophet Abraham, etc. These people were clearly allowed by Allah to declare themselves muslim according to Al-Quran, so brother Ali, do you think they did wrong by doing that?

                  Hope that clarifies what I meant and clarifies the matter.

                  Regards,

                  Tanveer

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                    Ali_Omar
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    Dear tanveermd,

                    Quote
                    Nowhere have I made any remark about my state or described my state ??.

                    Quote
                    A muslim can call oneself a muslim and after that it is possible to commit a sin or mistake and then repent to Allah soon after and never repeat the mistake again, and be forgiven by Allah and still remain a muslim thereby remaining in a permanent state of submission despite committing a mistake.

                    I am truly sorry if I jumped to conclusions and believed that you called yourself a ?Muslim?.
                    Am I then correct in assuming that you do not call yourself a ?Muslim??
                    If you call yourself a ?Muslim?, you are qualifying yourself as per your quote above, and in a permanent state .

                    Is there any other way to look at it?

                    Anyway, you state that we may use the Qur?an as our criterion to set the limits in accordance with God?s acceptance.
                    Then, may I, again, draw your attention to my earlier questions, and tell me, by using the Qur?an, where do you set the limits?

                    You also, rightfully, state that we may use the Qur?an to judge, but in what matters?
                    May we use it to judge in matters that concerns every individual?s relation with God, or is it in matters concerning interactions between ourselves?

                    To call oneself a ?Muslim? is, as you have so eloquently stated above, to declare oneself in a permanent state of submission.
                    This is not a matter between people, this is a matter between an individual and God, because it is to God you submit.
                    If you judge in such a matter, then yes, I believe you take on the role of God, because only God can judge in such a case.

                    The Messenger also did not judge himself in this matter

                    (46.9) Say "I am no different from the other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you . I only follow what is inspired to me. I am no more than a clear warner"

                    The messenger is an example for us, are we following this example if we do not only follow what was inspired to him, the Qur?an , but say that we know our future? That we are in a permanent state of submission ?

                    I may have overlooked something in the Qur?an, of course, but in that case, please point out to me where God has said that we can judge in matters between God and ourselves.

                    At the same time, I have the understanding that God give us the freedom to choose as we wish, within certain limits, therefore to name ourselves something or other, is perfectly all right, but to state that God approves of our choice, I think is a bit pretentious, even though I might be wrong, of course.

                    I look forward to your answers with statement of where God have set the limits, in various cases, so that also I may find out whether I can consider myself to be in a permanent state of submission or not.

                    Best regds

                    Ali Omar

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                      unknownuser
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      Dear Ali Omar,

                      It was you who gave muslim that definition, not me. I was trying to use YOUR definition in the arguement

                      Posted Wed May 18, 2005 241 pm Post subject


                      Dear tanveermd,

                      You give the evidence yourself from the Qur?an in the verses you refer to.
                      You surrender or you have surrendered; when and for how long?
                      If you state that you ARE a ?Muslim? it means that you have reached a permanent state of submission.

                      Check out the time and date of the post and who used this definition first. Those are your words and your definition, not mine. I was just trying to say that a true muslim can possibly make a mistake out of ignorance and then repent to Allah and not commit the same mistake again thereby remaining in a state of submission, and after Allah forgives, it is as if the mistake did not happen thereby maintaining the permanent state of submission. That is the example of prophet Muhammad himself. Do you mean to say that when prophet Muhammad made a mistake he was not a muslim anymore and because of that his declaring himself a muslim was wrong?

                      That is why I so carefully used the word "oneself" and not "myself" "a muslim (meaning any real muslim) can describe ONESELF (not meaning me) as a muslim". I never said that "I can describe myself........" because I wanted to keep it a general discussion and not make it personal.

                      I look forward to your answers with statement of where God have set the limits, in various cases, so that also I may find out whether I can consider myself to be in a permanent state of submission or not.

                      Look in Al-Quran and you will find it. I have already quoted numerous ayat to you but you keep rejecting the evidence.

                      I am afraid I will not be able to continue our discussion after your baseless accusations and unfounded personal remarks and trying to turn this discussion into a personal issue instead of keeping it general and objective.

                      Peace

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                        Ali_Omar
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        Dear tanveermd,

                        My apologies do not seem to help, I understand that I am not forgiven, how tragic!
                        I also fully understand that you do not want to answer any of my questions. I also could not have answered them as they can only be answered by God.

                        A wise decision, one should not put oneself in the place of God.

                        Peace be with you.

                        Best regards

                        Ali Omar

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                          unknownuser
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #52

                          Dear Ali Omar,

                          I have answered all your PERTINENT questions (pertinent to the topic of the discussion i.e. whether a muslim can describe oneself as a muslim) in detail with the supporting ayat. Please re read all our posts. I do not want to requote myself for the zillionth time. I have already shown that Allah has clearly allowed and even asked a muslim to describe oneself as a muslim in Al-Quran but you keep ignoring that and have been unable to come up with any relevant ayat (relevant to the topic of the discussion) proving your position.

                          It will be best if we do not discuss this issue anymore because it has lost all objectivity, as you have turned it into something personal.

                          Regards

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                            sytalls
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            I'd like to clarify my "path of submission" comment, if I may. My point was that there are some people who stick labels on themselves, simply because that's what their family did or their community did. They're mentioned often enough in The Quran.

                            Then there are those of us who don't take being Muslim lightly or think that we've automatically succeeded in submitting just by saying so. We're on the path, trying to be obedient and submit to God's Will. And I think when we call ourselves Muslims and seek to demonstrate through our actions what that truly means, we are countering the negative effects of those who distort Islam. We are, in a way, testifying through the way we live or try to live.

                            When I tell people I'm Muslim...or if I'm anticipating a time when they may know this..I'm more aware of how my actions and words reflect on Islam. No major changes, of course, just an internal reminder that I have opportuities in my daily life to represent a different side and to do so with the hope that I'm serving God in some way.

                            Peace.

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                              Ali_Omar
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              Dear tanveermed,

                              I quite agree, this has become a fruitless discussion. You can not leave the personal bit due to my assumption that you were calling yourself a ?Muslim?.

                              However, even though we disagree on this subject, I believe we are both aware of the necessity to take God?s words seriously.
                              Maybe I am overcautious.
                              I can assure you, I also have some knowledge of the definitions stated in the Qur?an, but I do not know the limits, because they are not there concerning matters between a human and God.
                              Hundreds of millions of people, however, believe they are, and that they know what God is approving of. I am uncertain that this is really so, and I believe this is one of the most dangerous misunderstandings in Islam, and the base for numerous atrocities in the World.

                              You see this as a matter of calling oneself names that one believe to be deserving, I do not, and therefore to you your ways to me mine, in this question.

                              Take care.

                              Best regds

                              Ali Omar

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                                Ali_Omar
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                Dear sytalls,

                                Do you feel that by calling yourself ?Muslim?, you are stating that you are on the right path to God, or do you just identify yourself as belonging to a certain group of people?

                                You say that we are, in a way, testifying through the way we live or try to live. Yes, but is it God who needs to be told, or is it yourself and/or other human beings?
                                What would be the reason for telling others that you are a ?Muslim??
                                Will that change anything in your relation to God, which is our ultimate goal, or will it have some effect on the relations with other human beings, not due to your actions but due to your statement?
                                Will your statement then make you into a different, better or worse, person in the eyes of others regardless of your actions?
                                Is it necessary to tell yourself that you are a ?Muslim?, isn?t it enough to remind yourself that you should do your best to follow the words of God?

                                So, my simple question is, to what end do you find it necessary to call yourself ?Muslim??

                                Regds

                                Ali Omar

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                                  unknownuser
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  Here is more on Power of Labels!!!

                                  http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3604

                                  Regards,

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                                    sytalls
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    Is it necessary to tell yourself that you are a "Muslim", isn't it enough to remind yourself that you should do your best to follow the words of God?

                                    So, my simple question is, to what end do you find it necessary to call yourself "Muslim"?

                                    Regds

                                    Ali Omar

                                    Peace, Ali Omar
                                    I am accountable only to God. So I am not concerned about how others view me, just for the sake of having someone think of me as either 'good' or 'bad' or even 'otherwise.' Neither do I feel that I am actually either any better or worse simply because I call myself a muslim.

                                    What I was trying to say is that I see this as testimony for God--striving to live my beliefs. Not as someone perfect or self-righteous, but as a fellow human being who is flawed but trying. This opens up discussions with people who want to know more about Islam, as well as with people (with diverse beliefs) who are supportive in some way.

                                    2278
                                    And strive with your utmost in the cause of God. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has not made hardships for you in your religion, which is the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you 'almuslimeen' from before, that the messenger is a witness to you and that you are a witness to the people. Therefore, observe salat and zakat and hold securely to God, your Protector, a Blessed Guardian.

                                    I was rejected long ago by those who insisted I must label myself Sunni or Shiite...that I could not simply be a muslim. Likewise, according to those people, I had to change my name and cover myself from head to toe. So I do not readily accept labels, and I have given this matter considerable thought.

                                    And, above all, I do not think (or insist) you or anyone else should do what I do. I was merely explaining why I made the choice I did, in case someone reading the discussion here is considering the various sides of this issue.

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                                      salikahDC
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      I don't agree with labeling myself anything these days. Before, I once labeled myself as "muslim" as a religious and political differentiation between my intention to truly submit to the God and the name of someone who follows the Arab Religion called Islam. But I realized that the ultimate judge of whether I am a Muslim or not, whether I am a believer or not, whether I am a submitter or not, lies with Ar Rahman not me or anyone else. I don't have anything to prove to anyone on this Earth. So I choose not to define myself at all. I know that I am fascinated by every facet of this creation and am striving for understanding ...including my own placement and existence while I'm here in this "clay" form....And although everyday is a constant struggle in some capacity, I am definitely at peace. I guess if you are of those who think that Islam means peace, I am a "muslim"

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                                        mquran
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        Salaamun alaikum all,

                                        SalikahSo I choose not to define myself at all. I know that I am fascinated by every facet of this creation and am striving for understanding ...including my own placement and existence while I'm here in this "clay" form....And although everyday is a constant struggle in some capacity, I am definitely at peace. I guess if you are of those who think that Islam means peace, I am a "muslim"

                                        Agreed. I don't want to play in that semantic space either. When I project myself in the world as a 'muslim', the normative definition gets in the way and immediately and I have to switch to apologetic mode. Its very tiresome indeed.

                                        Sytalls What I was trying to say is that I see this as testimony for God--striving to live my beliefs. Not as someone perfect or self-righteous, but as a fellow human being who is flawed but trying. This opens up discussions with people who want to know more about Islam, as well as with people (with diverse beliefs) who are supportive in some way. quotes 22/78

                                        Thats the perfect verse for your thoughts, imho. Ibrahim's path is what we must seek here as a qualitative element of our Muslimness. According to al-quraan, ibrahim

                                        a. 2/260 use rationale for his philosophical encounters
                                        b. 2/124-131 established God's working system , which is the operational element of al-islaam.
                                        c. 21/51-73 deconstructed his society's system and proved that they needed to return to the worship of Allah.

                                        So we need to copy this patterns in order to achieve a qualitative element of islam in our lives.

                                        thanks and peace.

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                                          #60

                                          Salaamun alaikum all,

                                          4914 O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honourable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.
                                          4915 The Nomads said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should Say 'We have surrendered', for belief has not yet entered into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

                                          From 4915 it is clear that people cannot label themselves as a believer if belief has not entered their hearts yet. IMO similarly, from this it can be extrapolated that people cannot label themselves as "muslim" if they have not submitted or surrendered to The God yet i.e. if they do not obey The God and His messenger and do not do good works or righteous deeds.

                                          WHAT ARE THE GOOD WORKS AND THE LIMITS?

                                          Now how can someone know if one has really surrendered to The God or if one is doing righteous deeds or not? For that Al-Quran has to be used as the criterion to define the limits. The God has clearly defined in Al-Quran what the good works are and what the lawful and the forbidden and the limits are, for a peaceful submitter, and we can use those limits to see if we are really doing good deeds and submitting to The God or not. Following are some of the limits, prohibitions, and laws established by The God

                                          THE STRAIGHT PATH

                                          6153 Say "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you
                                          that you should not set up anything with Him; and
                                          be kind to your parents; and
                                          do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and
                                          do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and
                                          do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
                                          6154 "And
                                          do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity; and
                                          give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear, and
                                          if you speak then be just even if against a relative; and
                                          regarding the pledges made to God, you shall observe them. This He has enjoined you that you may remember."
                                          6155 And
                                          THIS IS MY PATH, A STRAIGHT ONE. "So follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path.
                                          THAT IS WHAT HE HAS ENJOINED YOU TO THAT YOU MAY BE RIGHTEOUS."

                                          In addition to the above ALL the other prohibitions defined in Al-Quran have to be followed

                                          432 If you avoid the major sins that you are forbidden against, then We will cancel your existing sins and admit you to a generous entrance.

                                          More examples of the forbidden

                                          2173 He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
                                          2275 Those who consume financial interest, they do not rise except as the one who is being beaten by the devil out of direct touch. That is because they have said "Trade is like financial interest." While God has made trade lawful, and He has forbidden financial interest.
                                          424 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
                                          599 Lawful for you is the catch of the sea, to eat it as enjoyment for you and for those who travel; and forbidden for you is the catch of the land as long as you are under restriction; and be aware of God to whom you will be gathered.
                                          732 Say "My Lord has forbidden all lewd action, what is obvious from them and what is subtle, and sin, and aggression without cause, and that you set up partners with God that which He has never authorized, and that you say about God what you do not know."
                                          938 Know that accelerating the intercalary is an addition in rejection; that those who have rejected may misguide with it. They make it lawful one calendar year, and they forbid it one calendar year, so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.
                                          244 The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or one who is an idolatress. And the adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or an idolater. And this has been forbidden for the believers.

                                          THE LIMITS AND LAWS

                                          In addition to the above ALL the laws and boundaries established by The God in Al-Quran have to be followed too. Some examples are

                                          2228 The divorce is allowed twice. So, either they remain together equitably, or they part ways with kindness. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything you have given the women unless you fear that they will not uphold God's limits. So if you fear that they will not uphold God's limits, then there is no sin upon them for what is given back. These are God's limits so do not transgress them. And whoever shall transgress God's limits, then these are the wicked.
                                          2229 So if he divorces her again, then she will not be lawful for him until she has married another husband. If the other husband divorces her, then there is no sin that they come back together if they think they will uphold God's limits. These are God's limits, He clarifies them for a people that know.
                                          412 God directs you regarding the inheritance.............................414 These are God's limits, and whoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit him to gardens with rivers flowing beneath, eternally abiding therein. This is the greatest victory.
                                          420 O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit the women by force, nor that you become harsh with them to take away some of what you have given them, unless they commit a clear lewdness. And live with them in kindness. If you dislike them, then perhaps you may dislike something and God makes in it much good.
                                          53 Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
                                          56 They ask you what was made lawful to them, Say "All the good things have been made lawful for you, and what the trained dogs and birds catch, you teach them from what God teaches you." So eat from what they have captured for you and mention God's name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.
                                          541 The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.

                                          THE ETIQUETTES

                                          In addition to this all the etiquettes ordered by The God have to be followed. See the following link for quranic etiquettes

                                          http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/etiquette.htm

                                          COMPLETE SUBMISSION

                                          IMO only if someone submits a hundred percent to the above orders and limits and prohibitions defined by The God, can one describe oneself as a muslim. Anyone who does not follow ALL the above limits and still calls oneself a muslim becomes a hypocrite, who will have painful retribution by The God.

                                          4125 And who is better in the system than one who surrenders himself to God, and is a good doer, and he followed the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God has taken Abraham as a friend.
                                          4133 And who is better in saying than one who invites to God, and does good works, and says "I am one of those who have surrendered."

                                          That is my understanding based on Al-Quran but my understanding could be wrong. Constructive criticisms on my understanding are welcome.

                                          Regards,

                                          Tanveer

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