=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
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IDOL Yes, my position is that Al Kitaab in this verse refers to the universal laws of creation, seen and unseen.
PRIEST Allah, does not use Al-Kitab for His creation and its laws, rather, he uses khalaqa
IDOL Yes, "khalaqa" is creation and "kitaab" is book. I am not disputing that. Neither am I disputing the arabic words for "hand" and "face". Clearly, Al-Kitab and Al-Khalaqa are different quantities. I've found no reference/ayat where Allah equates the The Creation with the Book.
In statement #2, you claim that The Book and The Creation are different quantities, that is, they are not the same thing nor interchangeable. Yet, in statement #1, you equate The Book and The Creation, that is, the both contain the "universal laws". You cannot say on the one hand that, " my position is that Al Kitaab in this verse refers to the universal laws of creation", and then on the other hand say, "I've found no reference/ayat where Allah equates the The Creation with the Book". Hence, statements 1 and 2, contradict each other.
But what I am saying is that the God is using "book" and making it THE BOOK to imply the Universal Laws. In the same way the God is using "God's Face" to imply the charatcer, attributes of the One God, and Using "God's Hand" to imply control.
Idol, you really need to dispense with the use of "imply". You use this term frequently and it means conjecture/opinion, but not Quranic fact. The result is your positions are contradictory, confusing and misleading.
You agree that Al-Quran derives for qarara, that which is to be recited, read, proclaimed..."The Reading". My question is, this "Reading", the ayats which you are commanded to read and recite, are they not compiled in a book beginning with 11 and ending with 1146? Yes or no?
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
Is Al-Quran then...a book, yes or no?
If you answer yes, then what is your absolute Quranic proof that ayat 37, where it mentions The Book, isn't at all referring to Al-Quran?
37 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical...
Please, no "impying"/conjecturing, just Quranic fact, thanks much.
Let me ask you these things as well
Can man look out at the Creation or Al-Kitab and know for a fact
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fornication is wrong.
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how to divide up inheritance.
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that Jesus did not die on the cross.
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that a party of the Jews changed words from their places.
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that Al-Islam is the nme of Allah's Deen.
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to follow the millet of Ibrahim.
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that A Servant of Allah, instructed Musa in wisdom.
Btw, are you prepared yet to answer yes or no to the following question? Zenje and MZ357, have responded no. What is your answer?
Did Allah leave out any necesary/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, that is, the body of work from 11 to 1146, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? YES OR NO. Stop evading the question.
Looking forward to all of your answers.
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peace be upon you priest,
you asked what signs point to kitab being the universal laws
And there is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that fly?s with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be gathered. (638 )
And with Him are the keys to the unseen, none know them except He. And He knows what is in the land and in the sea; and not a leaf falls except with His knowledge; nor a seed in the darkness of the earth; nor anything moist or anything dry; all is in a clear book. (659)
And any matter you are in, or any recitation you do of the reading, or any work you do; We are witnesses over you when you undertake it. Nothing is hidden from your Lord, not even an atoms weight on earth or in the skies, nor smaller than that nor larger, but is in a clear book. (1061)
The count of the months with The God is twelve months in The God?s book the day He created the skies and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation ; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that The God is with the righteous. (1236)
these are a few, there are many more
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PEACE, IDRIS,
you asked what signs point to kitab being the universal laws
What I'm asking Idol is, what Quranic proof does he have that Al-Kitab mentioned in 37, isn't Al-Quran?
What kitab, told you the following about the kitab which you and Idol, call the universal laws?
And there is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that fly?s with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be gathered. (638 )
And with Him are the keys to the unseen, none know them except He. And He knows what is in the land and in the sea; and not a leaf falls except with His knowledge; nor a seed in the darkness of the earth; nor anything moist or anything dry; all is in a clear book. (659)
And any matter you are in, or any recitation you do of the reading, or any work you do; We are witnesses over you when you undertake it. Nothing is hidden from your Lord, not even an atoms weight on earth or in the skies, nor smaller than that nor larger, but is in a clear book. (1061)
The count of the months with The God is twelve months in The God?s book the day He created the skies and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation ; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that The God is with the righteous. (1236)
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace all,
In my opinion, "khalaqa" in the language of the scripture does not mean "to create", although this word is mostly tranlated this way. I believe that the meaning is more related to the "change in physiognomy, form or the framework" not the act of "creation".
"khalaqa" is used in the context of "making something from another thing", while "creation" carry a meaning of "making something from nothing" which is solely in the power of the god the creator, "be and it is becoming". Thus, the creator in the language of the scripture is "ar-rahma'ne", and this attribute never refers to anyone but the god.
2314
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PEACE, SOMEONE,
Thanks for your understanding of khalaqa. I will ponder your position.
What is your position on the following two items
- 37 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical...
Is the Book mentioned in the above ayat...Al-Quran?
- GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
- Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI, all
For the verse 37, I would have a question. Do you think this verse is from which of the 2 categories, "mu7kam" or "mutashabih"?
Well, this reading is indeed in the form of a book with ink and paper, in an arabic language, although now we can encode it with 0s and 1s to put it in a binary shape. The verse 37 can refer to this book, which contains indeed both categories of verses.
37 can also refer to the creation, which is also revealed to us by our creator, which can also be considered as a book, and contains both categories of signs.
What I would say is that all of it is from the god. Both ways are valid in my opinion.
Now, "al-quran" contains details of "al-kitab".
I believe that "al-quran" refers to "the set of universal laws" (chapter 551-2), this is "al-quran fi law7in ma7foudh" which is different in "shape" from this one that we have on paper. The one on paper is "encoded" in an arabic language, it is an arabic version of "the universal laws", and also contains the details of the creation.
For analogy, "al-quran" would be "the set of laws of grammar, spelling..", and "al-kitab" is "the language", but one need a language to write physically "the set of laws of grammar and spelling" or even just to say them. These laws contains the details of the language, but does not constitue the language itself, the language emanates from those laws.
I hope I'm making sense. I'll try to put more when it's clearer in my mind, unless if the god wills.
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PEACE, SOMEONE,
Thank you for your reply to question #1. I will respond to your reply shortly, insha-Allah. You didn't answer question #2 though? I would like your understanding.
- GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
- Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, SOMEONE,
37 He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
For the verse 37, I would have a question. Do you think this verse is from which of the 2 categories, "mu7kam" or "mutashabih"? 37 can also refer to the creation, which is also revealed to us by our creator, which can also be considered as a book, and contains both categories of signs.
It is my understanding that the ayat is mukham, nothing else makes sense. How does one determine, if one subscribes to the notion that Al-Kitab refers to the Creation itself, which laws in it are basic from those which are not? How does one catalogue such a thing and it be clear and irrefutable guidance for all of mankind?
Well, this reading is indeed in the form of a book with ink and paper, in an arabic language, although now we can encode it with 0s and 1s to put it in a binary shape. The verse 37 can refer to this book, which contains indeed both categories of verses.
I agree. Given that Al-Quran is in the form of a book, clearly then, ayat 37 is referring to Al-Quran as such. I don't know how Idol, continues to maintain that Al-Quran is not a book, that is, a complete document beginning with the bismillah and ending with 1146.
What I would say is that all of it is from the god. Both ways are valid in my opinion. Now, "al-quran" contains details of "al-kitab".
So, what you are saying here is that, Al-Quran, in the literal sense is a book/kitab, but Al-Kitab, in the figurative sense, can refer to the creation, is this your position?
I believe that "al-quran" refers to "the set of universal laws" (chapter 551-2), this is "al-quran fi law7in ma7foudh" which is different in "shape" from this one that we have on paper. The one on paper is "encoded" in an arabic language, it is an arabic version of "the universal laws", and also contains the details of the creation.
I'm not certain what you mean here. I've seen no ayat where Allah refers to the creation as Al-Quran. If you know of one, please post it, thanks.
For analogy, "al-quran" would be "the set of laws of grammar, spelling..", and "al-kitab" is "the language", but one need a language to write physically "the set of laws of grammar and spelling" or even just to say them. These laws contains the details of the language, but does not constitue the language itself, the language emanates from those laws.
I want to stay away from analogies, because they are never fully accurate. Al-Quran, according to ayat 2185, was sent as guidance to mankind the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise . Do you agree?
Looking forward to your answers.
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Peace be upon you PB,
IDOL Yes, "khalaqa" is creation and "kitaab" is book. I am not disputing that. Neither am I disputing the arabic words for "hand" and "face". Clearly, Al-Kitab and Al-Khalaqa are different quantities. I've found no reference/ayat where Allah equates the The Creation with the Book.
I do not know how the underlined portion got attached to my statement, I do not even use the word "Allah", so please disregard that as part of my statement, I must have copied and pasted incorrectly.
In statement #2, you claim that The Book and The Creation are different quantities, that is, they are not the same thing nor interchangeable. Yet, in statement #1, you equate The Book and The Creation, that is, the both contain the "universal laws". You cannot say on the one hand that, " my position is that Al Kitaab in this verse refers to the universal laws of creation", and then on the other hand say, "I've found no reference/ayat where Allah equates the The Creation with the Book". Hence, statements 1 and 2, contradict each other.
Again, that was an error, I believe that was copied from your statement and I accidentally connected it to mine.
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But what I am saying is that the God is using "book" and making it THE BOOK to imply the Universal Laws. In the same way the God is using "God's Face" to imply the charatcer, attributes of the One God, and Using "God's Hand" to imply control.Idol, you really need to dispense with the use of "imply". You use this term frequently and it means conjecture/opinion, but not Quranic fact. The result is your positions are contradictory, confusing and misleading.
So you are saying that to you, hand of God is a literal hand as well as face? If not , then you need an "IMPLICATION" as well.
You agree that Al-Quran derives for qarara, that which is to be recited, read, proclaimed..."The Reading". My question is, this "Reading", the ayats which you are commanded to read and recite, are they not compiled in a book beginning with 11 and ending with 1146? Yes or no?
No, we are to READ the signs from the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds, not confine ourselves to 114 chapters. The 114 chapters point us to the Universe and its laws.
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
Is Al-Quran then...a book, yes or no?
No, and we can resolve this easily by stating that the prophet who recieved this message did not recieve a book, he recieved inspiration. Inspiration is not a book.
Let me ask you these things as well
Can man look out at the Creation or Al-Kitab and know for a fact
- fornication is wrong.
Yes, after trial and error
- how to divide up inheritance.
Yes, after trial and error
- that Jesus did not die on the cross.
I wouldn't even know who Jesus was if it werent for books, because I never met any man named Jesus, but I WOULD, through pondering the nature of Man, understand that the WILL must be born so that we can make CHOICES to follow the Universl Laws instead of blindly follow our emotions.
- that a party of the Jews changed words from their places.
Yes, truth is clear from falsehood, so I would be able to discern if someone changed truth into falsehood, it just would not verify itself in life.
- that Al-Islam is the nme of Allah's Deen.
Al Islam is not a name, it is a description. So what I would realize is that I need to submit to Univeral Law or else I would continue to suffer from my own actions.
- to follow the millet of Ibrahim.
You are differntiating between messengers, if you are righteous, you automatically follow all messengers, even the ones you were never told about.
- that A Servant of Allah, instructed Musa in wisdom.
I wouldn't know about any Musa, but I can see that the God instructs all people who seek insrtuction.
Btw, are you prepared yet to answer yes or no to the following question? Zenje and MZ357, have responded no. What is your answer?
I am quite capable of answering questions without you trying to influence my answers by telling me how others have answered.
Did Allah leave out any necesary/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, that is, the body of work from 11 to 1146, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? YES OR NO. Stop evading the question.
I refuse to answewr a question that I have answered in almost every post that you have written to me since this debate started. If you havent gotten it now, then you will need to go back and re read the other posts.
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Peace be upon you Someone,
I believe that "al-quran" refers to "the set of universal laws" (chapter 551-2), this is "al-quran fi law7in ma7foudh" which is different in "shape" from this one that we have on paper. The one on paper is "encoded" in an arabic language, it is an arabic version of "the universal laws", and also contains the details of the creation.
For analogy, "al-quran" would be "the set of laws of grammar, spelling..", and "al-kitab" is "the language", but one need a language to write physically "the set of laws of grammar and spelling" or even just to say them. These laws contains the details of the language, but does not constitue the language itself, the language emanates from those laws.
I hope I'm making sense. I'll try to put more when it's clearer in my mind, unless if the god wills.
Please eleborate as it becomes clearer to you. I would like to see where you are going with this so I can make sure that my understanding is correct. I "THINK" you may have brought a good correction to my understanding, but I am not sure, I would like you to elaborate when you have time.
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PEACE, IDOL,
So you are saying that to you, hand of God is a literal hand as well as face? If not , then you need an "IMPLICATION" as well.
I'm not talking about hands and faces right now, just books.
PRIEST You agree that Al-Quran derives for qarara, that which is to be recited, read, proclaimed..."The Reading". My question is, this "Reading", the ayats which you are commanded to read and recite, are they not compiled in a book beginning with 11 and ending with 1146? Yes or no?
No, we are to READ the signs from the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds, not confine ourselves to 114 chapters. The 114 chapters point us to the Universe and its laws.
I'm not talking about "confining" ourselves to anything, I'm talking about an entity which is comprised of 114 Suras. Well, given that these 114 chapters exist as an entity, well, entities which are comprised of chapters...are defined as books. What is your problem with simply admitting that? Given that these 114 chapters point to something, they must then be, as Allah has stated, guidance. Hence, this guidance, the 114 chapters, are defined as The Reading/Al-Quran. The 114 chapters are comprised 6,600 + ayats, and are listed between two covers from 11 to 1146...called a book. I hope at some point you stop denying the obvious.
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
No, and we can resolve this easily by stating that the prophet who recieved this message did not recieve a book, he recieved inspiration. Inspiration is not a book.
Certainly a literal "book", did not drop out of the blue and into his lap, however, the inspiration he received are the ayats from 11 to 1146, and they now found in a book, just as the works if Marx are found in a book.
PRIESTLet me ask you these things as well Can man look out at the Creation or Al-Kitab and know for a fact 1. fornication is wrong.
Yes, after trial and error
Trial and error is not how Allah guides. Allah, guides through knowledge/certainty. If Allah wanted man to learn through trial and error, then there would be no need for the prophets and the books of scripture.
I could not respond to your other comments, because they just don't make any rational sense, sorry.
Al Islam is not a name, it is a description. So what I would realize is that I need to submit to Univeral Law or else I would continue to suffer from my own actions.
Al-Islam is a definition and not description.
PRIEST Did Allah leave out any necesary/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, that is, the body of work from 11 to 1146, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? YES OR NO. Stop evading the question.
I refuse to answewr a question that I have answered in almost every post that you have written to me since this debate started. If you havent gotten it now, then you will need to go back and re read the other posts.
You haven't answer the question at all. All I want is a one word answer to my question. Either say yes or no. It is that simple and requires no effort. What, you can on and on and on and on about things, over and over and over, of which only you can understand, yet, you cannot type in a two or a three character word and answer my question...what is that about??
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Peace be upon you PB,
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So you are saying that to you, hand of God is a literal hand as well as face? If not , then you need an "IMPLICATION" as well.I'm not talking about hands and faces right now, just books.
I'll reenter the discussion when you are ready to study the WHOLE message, this is why you are having trouble. Also, I am interested in what Someone was stating as well, so I will stop my comments for now.
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PEACE, IDOL,
I'll reenter the discussion when you are ready to study the WHOLE message, this is why you are having trouble. Also, I am interested in what Someone was stating as well, so I will stop my comments for now.
You have it backwards. I'm not having any trouble at all...you are. Anytime someone cannot answer with a simple yes or no to basic Quranic question, well, that is an individual who is having alot of trouble.
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PEACE, SOMEONE,
Thank you for your reply to question #1. I will respond to your reply shortly, insha-Allah. You didn't answer question #2 though? I would like your understanding.
- GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.
- Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessary/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
Looking forward to your reply.
Peace,
The god has not left anything related to guidance out of the scripture, as per the scripture itself.
So the answer to your question would be no. but on the other hand, millions do read the scripture headlessly, would it spare them the fire?
PS 18110 doesn't exist.
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peace be upon you priest,
let me ask you a question, what about that which came before us? meaning the previous inspiration written down in books such as this reading (quran), are we not to have trust in them (24, 2285)? im not even saying the "bible", i mean the books in general
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PEACE, SOMEONE,
The god has not left anything related to guidance out of the scripture, as per the scripture itself. So the answer to your question would be no.
Thank you for your reply to my question.
The only sane/taqwa answer to that question is "no", hence, Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/in respect to--- the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , is fully detailed. For if it weren't, then mankind would inevitably/inexorably...be lead to...HELL.
Now, isn't it interesting that Idol, cannot/will not simply answer "no" as you and I have done?
Thanks for an honest response, Someone. Perhaps the others will follow yours, Zenje's and MZ357's lead, and simply answer "no" as well.
but on the other hand, millions do read the scripture headlessly, would it spare them the fire?
What do you mean?
PS 18110 doesn't exist.
Please review Sura 18 again; you are not correct here. The following is 18110.
18110 Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one God, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDRIS,
let me ask you a question, what about that which came before us? meaning the previous inspiration written down in books such as this reading (quran), are we not to have trust in them (24, 2285)? im not even saying the "bible", i mean the books in general
It is my understanding that Allah wants us to believe/know that He revealed scriptures before Al-Quran, and, while He does refer us to these scriptures, it is not to follow them in to to as with Al-Quran, but to examine something specific i.e. that Muhammad is mentioned in their books.
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peace be upon you priest,
It is my understanding that Allah wants us to believe/know that He revealed scriptures before Al-Quran, and, while He does refer us to these scriptures, it is not to follow them in to to as with Al-Quran, but to examine something specific i.e. that Muhammad is mentioned in their books.
how do u INFER this out of trusting in His books (2285) which were revealed before us (23)?
after all one of your arguments for Iblis not being a controller (malaika) was that we are to have ABSOLUTE TRUST in the controllers, meaning that they would not go astray and we can rely on them, would this not also apply for the books considering we are supposed to have trust in them as well (2285) if you believe u are correct on your view of iman as ABSOLUTE TRUST then by all means u should accept the previous books as perfect and unable to be changed
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PEACE, IDRIS,
PREIST It is my understanding that Allah wants us to believe/know that He revealed scriptures before Al-Quran, and, while He does refer us to these scriptures, it is not to follow them in to to as with Al-Quran, but to examine something specific i.e. that Muhammad is mentioned in their books.
how do u INFER this out of trusting in His books (2285) which were revealed before us (23)?
If the prior books were still fully intact and comlete in their guidanc for mankind, then what would be the need for Al-Quran? Remember, Allah says that "on this day have I perfected and completed... 53. Also, keep in mind that a party of the Jews changed words from their right places.
after all one of your arguments for Iblis not being a controller (malaika) was that we are to have ABSOLUTE TRUST in the controllers, meaning that they would not go astray and we can rely on them, would this not also apply for the books considering we are supposed to have trust in them as well (2285) if you believe u are correct on your view of iman as ABSOLUTE TRUST then by all means u should accept the previous books as perfect and unable to be changed
We must trust the fact that Allah sent previous books, hence, when He refers us to something in those books, then we are obligated to believe in and accept whatever that might be. However, Allah does not tell us to accept those books in total. If the prior boks could be trsuted in total, then the Jews would not be obligated to accept Allah and His Last Messenger/Message--Al-Quran. Does it make sense for Allah to give mankind books for guidance or one book for guidance? If it your answer is the former, then Allah would contradict Himself, to wit
3929 Allah sets forth an example There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man. Are the two alike in condition? (All) praise is due to Allah. Nay! most of them do not know.
Looking forward to your reply.