=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
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Peace,
Now you don't understand what I'm saying. . . figures. Read and read well
Which point?.?
The Koran copying Biblical scriptures?.or the authors who penned the text??
Both.
You said
Just as the authors? told us?
The Koran can only copy.
Who are the authors of the Quran?
And where did they say that the Quran can only copy?
Who are these authors that "penned the text"?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace be upon you,
Then you acknowledge that the Koran is simply an Arabic collection of previous Biblical Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
No, I acknowledge that there are men and woman who have the ability to recieve inspiration from the God, since the beginning of time, and they are given the same message, which is then written by the pen to distribute to mankind, however, mankind always tries to tamper with the message, sometimes knowingly so they can imprison the minds of those who are unaware and cause them to fight amongst each other. So each time a person brings TRUTH, it is a confirmation of the TRUTH that came before it.
As such?.we already know that the Koran?s information is a second-hand translation that has attempted to cross the Hebrew and Greek language barriers?
I have no clue where you got that. Think of it this way, a pure white light shining through different colored window panes, you are reading from a DIRTY BLUE window pane, we are reading from a LESS DIRTY Green pane, I am trying to get to that Pure White Light that manifests through ALL of the window panes.
Knowing this?.why would you want to put your faith in a second-hand source instead of the original?.?
This is illogical.
You are prevented from understanding me because of your emotionality. If you would calm yourself and transcend theses colored panes, you would join me in bringing peace and not fighting this against that, but only search for verifyable truth. There is no God but THE GOD, it is the pure light that flows through all of us "windowpanes", including the Jesus Windowpane.
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Likewise, the so called bible contains stories from long before Jesus. Virgin Births and ressurections are not newThen?.this would make the Koran out to be a copy of a copy of a copy??exactly how far back to you really want to go?..?
We MUST go to the beginning, as I have done. So what is the point of trying to make the "Koran" a copy if the "Bible" has the same so called "faults"? What is the point of that? Suppoose they were BOTH copied from something else, except the BIBLE was a weaker copy that "Koran"? How can you prove otherwise with having already admitted "copy after copy after copy?"
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Why waste time cherishing what your sect has, why not focus on changing behavior, unifying.There is plenty of low-hanging fruit in educating Muslims to the origins of their book of faith?
Why not direct that back to the beginning? To the white Light? Why are you directing them to another window pane?
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It is clear what the followers of the bible here choose to do, create division and war one against the other.I think that the suicide bombers that cling tenaciously to their Koran while blowing themselves (and others) up in the name of their ?god??.have this ground pretty well covered already?
Theres no real difference between you and them, neither one is promoting peace and unity because you both follow window panes and not the pure light.
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Greetings anwar,
Thanks for your reply?
Peace,
Now you don't understand what I'm saying. . . figures. Read and read well
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Which point?.?The Koran copying Biblical scriptures?.or the authors who penned the text??
Both.
You said
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Just as the authors? told us?The Koran can only copy.
Who are the authors of the Quran?
And where did they say that the Quran can only copy?
Godbless,
AnwarLet?s first review a couple of examples that demonstrate that the Koran is merely a copied collection of previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?
Walaqad darabna lilnnasi fee hatha alqur-ani min kulli mathalin wala-in ji/tahum bi-ayatin layaqoolanna allatheena kafaroo in antum illa mubtiloona (30.58 )
Reviewing the key terms in this ayah?
= ?darabna?
?darabna? definition
Plural. We have set forth. It comes from the root ?dzaraba?, which means to heal, strike, propound, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shun, mention, state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, a like in stature and make, seek away, march own, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone?s property for a share in the profit, leave for sake, take away a thing.
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 1777 - 1783
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 328 - 329?darabna? is used three times in the Koran, and in each and every case, the term is integrated within Biblical content.
= ?mathalin?
?mathalin? definition
Noun. Parable, likeness, similitude, like, reason, proverb, discourse, equivalent, comparison, sign, lesson, an example, case, state, condition, argument, match, an analogue. It comes from the root ?mathala?, which means to resemble, imitate, compare any one with, be or look like some one, bear a likeness.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 3017 - 3018
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 525 ? 526Here, as in numerous other Koranic locations, we have the term ?mathalin? which means to imitate or make an analogue to something.
We already completely understand that the ?alqur-ani? in this ayah refers to the collection of Jewish and Christian scriptures?
So?let?s plug this ayah into context?
30.55 And a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts the criminals/sinners swear/make oath (that) they did stay/remain except an hour, as/like that, they were being lied to/turned away.
30.56 And those who were given/brought the knowledge and the faith/belief said "You had stayed/remained in Allah's term/fate/destiny Book to the Revival Day/Resurrection Day, so this (is) the Revival Day/Resurrection Day, and but you were not knowing.
30.57 So (on) that day those who caused injustice/oppression, their apologies/excuses do not benefit (them), and nor they, they be allowed to offer reconciliation/appeasement .
30.58 And We have set forth to the people in this the Koran from an equivalent/likeness, and if you came to them with a verse/evidence/sign those who disbelieved will say "That truly you are except wasters.?
30.59 As/like that Allah stamps/seals on those who do not knows' hearts/minds.
The Hour of Resurrection??
Allah?s book?..?
Hardly new information.
Where have we heard this before?.?
Thus?it is quite clear that the collection called the Koran is merely an imitator of the previous scriptures?
Amazingly, this same exact phrase is also used here?
Walaqad darabna lilnnasi fee hatha alqur-ani min kulli mathalin laAAallahum yatathakkaroona (39.27)
So?let?s also plug this ayah into context?
39.23 Allah descended the information's/speech's best, a Book looking alike/resembling/ similar doubles of twos Koranic verses, (the) skins (of) those who fear their Lord tremble/shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts/minds soften to Allah's remembrance/reminder, that (is) Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He wills/wants, and who Allah misguides so (there is) none from a guide for him.
39.24 Is who fears with his face/front the torture's bad/evil/harm (on) the Resurrection Day, and was said to the unjust/oppressive taste/experience what you were gaining/acquiring.
39.25 Those from before them lied/denied/falsified, so the torture came to them from where/when they do not feel/know/sense.
39.26 So Allah made them taste/experience the shame/disgrace/scandal in the life the present/worldly life, and the end's torture(is) greater if they were knowing.
39.27 And We have set forth to the people in this the Koran from an equivalent/likeness, maybe/perhaps they mention/remember.
39.28 An Arabic a Koran, without/other than of bent/crookedness/indirectness, maybe/perhaps they fear and obey.
Now?.this is actually quite revealing now isn?t it??
Look at what we have just been told?
? A book resembling two Koranic verses
? The Resurrection Day
? The Koran is a likeness
? Not just any ?collection? Koran?but an Arabic KoranNow?the last part is truly amazing as it identifies this copied ?Collection? of scriptures by the qualifier ?Arabic?.
If the ?Collection? that is being discussed was already in Arabic, then there would have been absolutely no need whatsoever to tell us of the language that the material is in; as it would be self-evident?
As it is?.the authors specifically make this point to inform us of the translation of the ?Collection? that has transpired?.
Obviously, from the Greek in this case.
Who are these authors that "penned the text"?
Observe these interesting comments by Lane?
Every language without a written literature tends to decay more than to development by reason of foreign influences; and the history of the Arabic exhibits an instance of decay remarkably rapid, and extraordinary in degree. An immediate consequence of the foreign conquests achieved by the Arabs under Mohammad?s first four successors was an extensive corruption of their language; for the nations that they subdued were naturally obliged to adopt in a great measure the speech of the conquerors, a speech which few persons have ever acquired in such a degree as to be secure from the commission of frequent errors in grammar without learning it from infancy?.
Such being the case, it became a matter of the highest importance to the Arabs to preserve the knowledge of that speech which had thus become obsolescent, and to draw a distinct line between the classical and the post-classical languages. For the former language was that of the Kur-an and of the Traditions of Mohammad, the sources of their religious, moral, civil, criminal, and political code? and they possessed, in that language, preserved by oral tradition, - for the art of writing, in Arabia, had been almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews?.
The classical language they called, by reason of its incomparable excellence, ?el-loghah,? or ?the language? and the line between this and the post-classical was easily drawn, on account of the almost sudden commencement, and rapid progress, of the corruption.
?.I often have found in my knowledge of modern Arabic a solution of a difficulty; but without great caution, such knowledge would frequently have misled me, in consequence of the changes which have taken place in the applications of many words since the classical age.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. vii ? viii; xxii - xxiiiIt is quite inescapable that Islam?s ?prophet??.which is not even mentioned in the Koran? did NOT write the Koran?
Moreover?the authors, who did finally put pen to paper, and translated the Hebrew and Greek into Arabic, were more than likely Christians?..!!!
Thanks?
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Let?s review the true understanding?
= ?alqur-ana?
?alqur-ana? definition
Originally meaning the Collection; ?I collected together the thing? or ?I read, or recited, the book or scripture?; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Mohammad; it also signifies the revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.
is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.
It comes from the root ?qara?a?, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449Why we need to beleive in Lexicon or other dictionaries?
Dear Albion, when you said correctly that the root of AlQuraan is "Qara'a" then how could you translate it wrongly? Remember we are trying to understand AlQuraan and AlKitaab here. It is not just the matter of Quraan or Kitaab but we are discussing on THE Quraan and THE Book.
Why THE? Because it explains the usage of word in it by itself.
"And a reading (qur'aanan) that We have separated, so that you may read (li-taqra-ahu) it to the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually." 17106
"Do not move your tongue with it to make haste. It is for Us to gather it and relate (qur-aanahu) it." 7517
"So when We relate (qara'-naahu) it, you shall follow its reading (qur-aanahu)." 7518"Thou shall uphold the Salaat at the setting of the sun, until the darkness of the night; and relate (qur-aana) AlFajr (Salaat), relating (qur-aana) AlFajr (Salaat) has been witnessed." 1778
Please note that all words used in these verses are in relation with Quraan there is no AL that means there is no THE used with AlQuraan. So, you can easily understand what Quraan means.
No Lexicon or other dictionaries required to understand this word.
Thus, as we can clearly see for ourselves, the Koran is not ?original? at all. It is merely a ?Collection? of previous scriptures (Mainly OT and NT Gospels), that have been collected and pulled together in an attempt to imitate the Holy Bible.
The authors who penned the Koranic text went to great lengths in acknowledging as truth, their Biblical origins.
A big claim without any proof? It looks funny.
Let?s review the definition for ?the Book??.
= ?alkitabu?
?alkitabu? definition
Lane references sura 22 in his definition
Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena
That The Book no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) guidance to the fearing and obeying. (22)
?That is the book, or scripture?; as though combining in itself the excellences of all other books or scriptures; or meaning that is preeminently the book, or scripture. The Pentateuch or Mosaic Law; and the Gospel, or Book of the Gospels; the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Divine prescript, appointment, or ordinance; judgment, or sentence; fatal decree or predestination.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, p. 74; volume seven, p. 2590Again Lexicon? Try get meaning from AlQuraan. And what about the root of AlKitaab? Not interested?
KTB is the root word of AlKitaab. That literally means "to write". Remeber AlQuraan is in relation with "Reading" and AlKitaab is in relation with "Writing". That it. This is very simple and easy to understand with no complications.
"O my people, enter the holy land that Allah Has written (kataba) for you, and do not turn your backs, or you will become losers." 521
"And if those who believe in Our revelations come to you, then Say Peace be upon you, our Lord has written (kataba) mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and amends, then He is Forgiving, Merciful." 654
And also check 2187, 612, 951, 5821-22. And lot more are there. Please note that there is no AL means there is no THE in the above quoted verses before KTB.
Is this not clear enough to understand the correct meaning of words used in AlQuraan?
Thus?it is quite clear, even at this point, and even without performing any scriptural comparison(s) whatsoever, that ?the collection? that comprises the Koran, is basically the Jewish and Christian scriptures.
This is beyond any reasonable doubt.
How? How did you come to such conclusion with out any proof?
Furthermore, let?s review some Koranic passages that will shed even more clarity on what it claims to be?
Alif-lam-ra tilka ayatu alkitabi waqur-anin mubeenin
15.1 A L R , that is The Book's inseparable message, and (a) distinct/clear Koran.
Here we have the astounding statement (from the Koranic authors) that the Jewish and Christian scriptures ?alkitabi? are inseparable ?ayatu? from the Koran.
"The Koran"? How can you twist the words or mistranslate the words of AlQuraan just to make your point? Where did you get this "THE Koran" from that verse? The word used in the above verse is simply "Qur-aannin" That simply means "READING".
Compare to this ayah?
Ta-seen tilka ayatu alqur-ani wakitabin mubeenin
27.1 T S, that is the Koran's inseparable message, and (a) distinct/clear Book.
In order to re-emphasize that the Koran is no more than a collection of Jewish and Christian scriptures, the Koranic authors transposed the order of the same juxtaposed words; this time around claiming that the Koran is inseparable from the ?alkitabi?.
"ALKITAABI"? Again?
How can do that again and again? How much will you twist the words? This is not fair at all. The word used in the above verse is simply "Kitaabin" that clearly means "Writing".
Now see how you can make your fake claim possible?
Are we beginning to see the picture now?.?
Oh yes! I am seeing clearly now how you are trying to make the picture.
And?look at these examples?
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi walakin tasdeeqa allathee bayna yadayhi watafseela alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameena
10.37 And this the Koran was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than Allah, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands, and detailing/explaining The Book, no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from the Lord of mankind and the jinn.
The Koran details/explains the Jewish and Christian scriptures?..?
Jewish and Christian Scriptures? Read and Read and again Read the verse carefully. It says "Bayna Yadayhi" that means "Between HIS hands". Who is HE here? Where this Jewish and Christians Scriptures came in between?
What are you doing brother, FEAR your Creator.
Who would have guessed?
Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu qur-anan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona
41.3 A Book its verses were detailed/explained/clarified, an Arabic Koran to a nation reasoning/comprehending/knowing.
The Jewish and Christian scriptures are inseparable from an Arabic Koran?.?
Again? What do you mean by "Arabic Koran" here? Remember it is not AlQuraan.
There is absolutely no doubt that the authors who penned the Koran (as we know it today) borrowed Biblical material.
In fact, they quite proudly made it a blatant point to say so?.
Take care?
) You need the care brother. You have to take care. You made authors of AlQuraan? I don't know how much you make your fake claims with out any proof.
Bring in any proof from The Book or The Reading if you are TRUE.
InshaAllah, you will never find any thing contradicting in it as it was sent my All Knower. Alhamdulillah.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Regards,
MMKhan
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MKhan,
You can't get meanings of words from the Koran. Muhammad and his people didn't get the meaning of the Koran's words from the Koran. They got it from thier parents and community and the language of that community was preserved in the lexicons. So it is right that he is using the lexicons. But if you look at the lexicons they don't even support what he is saying. He is making BIG jumps you can't see that.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Greetings anwar,
Thanks for your replies?
Wow, The rebuttals to your assumptions are in your posts. THey are actually in the very things that you put in bold. You don't even see it. That is a shame.
Perhaps (if you are confident), you could show us specifically where you are talking about.
We understand if you decline? wink
You can't get meanings of words from the Koran. Muhammad and his people didn't get the meaning of the Koran's words from the Koran. They got it from thier parents and community and the language of that community was preserved in the lexicons. So it is right that he is using the lexicons.
Too bad that you cannot follow your own advice?
But if you look at the lexicons they don't even support what he is saying. He is making BIG jumps you can't see that.
I buttress my position with the Lexicons?.of which, you apparently do not?
If you have an issue with my conclusions, then feel completely free to bring forth your references to the contrary.
If you refuse to do this?then your comments are no more than your unreferenced opinion?.and have no scholarly merit whatsoever?
Thanks?
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Greetings mmkhan,
Thanks for your reply?
Apple Pie wrote
Let?s review the true understanding?= ?alqur-ana?
?alqur-ana? definition
Originally meaning the Collection; ?I collected together the thing? or ?I read, or recited, the book or scripture?; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Mohammad; it also signifies the revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.
is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.
It comes from the root ?qara?a?, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449Why we need to beleive in Lexicon or other dictionaries?
Because the classic lexicons preserve the ancient languages.
Why THE? Because it explains the usage of word in it by itself.
"And a reading (qur'aanan) that We have separated, so that you may read (li-taqra-ahu) it to the people over time; and We have brought it down gradually." 17106
"Do not move your tongue with it to make haste. It is for Us to gather it and relate (qur-aanahu) it." 7517
"So when We relate (qara'-naahu) it, you shall follow its reading (qur-aanahu)." 7518"Thou shall uphold the Salaat at the setting of the sun, until the darkness of the night; and relate (qur-aana) AlFajr (Salaat), relating (qur-aana) AlFajr (Salaat) has been witnessed." 1778
Please note that all words used in these verses are in relation with Quraan there is no AL that means there is no THE used with AlQuraan. So, you can easily understand what Quraan means.
No Lexicon or other dictionaries required to understand this word.
Perhaps in your rush, you overlooked the word that you are now using?
Let?s review the word, once again?
is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters
It comes from the root ?qara?a?, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449Here is the definite article ?al??
= ?al?
?al? definition
The definite article. In Arabic it is used to give the meaning of Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, The, and to denote comprehensiveness, that is to say all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades.
Anything which has a quality requiring it to be regarded as sacred, or inviolable; which has some right pertaining to it.
It is also used to indicate something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the writer or reader.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 74 - 75
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 25
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 7In other words?.it is a collection of the written words (i.e. verses, and chapters are from books) from previous prophets?i.e. Biblical prophets?.and the holy Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek?.not Arabic?
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Thus, as we can clearly see for ourselves, the Koran is not ?original? at all. It is merely a ?Collection? of previous scriptures (Mainly OT and NT Gospels), that have been collected and pulled together in an attempt to imitate the Holy Bible.The authors who penned the Koranic text went to great lengths in acknowledging as truth, their Biblical origins.
A big claim without any proof? It looks funny.
Quote
Thus?it is quite clear, even at this point, and even without performing any scriptural comparison(s) whatsoever, that ?the collection? that comprises the Koran, is basically the Jewish and Christian scriptures.This is beyond any reasonable doubt.
How? How did you come to such conclusion with out any proof?
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There is absolutely no doubt that the authors who penned the Koran (as we know it today) borrowed Biblical material.In fact, they quite proudly made it a blatant point to say so?.
Take care?
You need the care brother. You have to take care. You made authors of AlQuraan? I don't know how much you make your fake claims with out any proof.
Bring in any proof from The Book or The Reading if you are TRUE.
InshaAllah, you will never find any thing contradicting in it as it was sent my All Knower. Alhamdulillah.
There is a complete smorgasbord of proof.
If you doubt the power of the classic lexicons?then take my challenge to bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence.
Your brother anwar graciously declined the offer?as he (deep down) understands that the Koran really is no more than a collection of the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?
In time?you will also succumb to the obvious?
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Let?s review the definition for ?the Book??.= ?alkitabu?
?alkitabu? definition
Lane references sura 22 in his definition
Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena
That The Book no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) guidance to the fearing and obeying. (22)
?That is the book, or scripture?; as though combining in itself the excellences of all other books or scriptures; or meaning that is preeminently the book, or scripture. The Pentateuch or Mosaic Law; and the Gospel, or Book of the Gospels; the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Divine prescript, appointment, or ordinance; judgment, or sentence; fatal decree or predestination.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, p. 74; volume seven, p. 2590Again Lexicon? Try get meaning from AlQuraan. And what about the root of AlKitaab? Not interested?
KTB is the root word of AlKitaab. That literally means "to write". Remeber AlQuraan is in relation with "Reading" and AlKitaab is in relation with "Writing". That it. This is very simple and easy to understand with no complications.
"O my people, enter the holy land that Allah Has written (kataba) for you, and do not turn your backs, or you will become losers." 521
"And if those who believe in Our revelations come to you, then Say Peace be upon you, our Lord has written (kataba) mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and amends, then He is Forgiving, Merciful." 654
And also check 2187, 612, 951, 5821-22. And lot more are there. Please note that there is no AL means there is no THE in the above quoted verses before KTB.
Is this not clear enough to understand the correct meaning of words used in AlQuraan?
Here is the definition that you are searching for?
= ?kitabu?
?kitabu? definition
A thing in which, or on which, one writes (a book); a written piece of paper (a record or register and a written mandate) of skin. A thing written. The revelation from above; and to a letter, or epistle, which a person writes and sends. writing, scripture, written revelation, decree, ordinance, law, write, prescribed, prescribed period, record, letter, term, scripture, teachings, knowledge reverted to a prophet, recorder. It comes from the root ?kataba?, which means to write, note record, prescribe, ordain, destine, decree, transcribe, command, inscribe.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2589 - 2591
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 478Quote
Furthermore, let?s review some Koranic passages that will shed even more clarity on what it claims to be?Alif-lam-ra tilka ayatu alkitabi waqur-anin mubeenin
15.1 A L R , that is The Book's inseparable message, and (a) distinct/clear Koran.
Here we have the astounding statement (from the Koranic authors) that the Jewish and Christian scriptures ?alkitabi? are inseparable ?ayatu? from the Koran.
"The Koran"? How can you twist the words or mistranslate the words of AlQuraan just to make your point? Where did you get this "THE Koran" from that verse? The word used in the above verse is simply "Qur-aannin" That simply means "READING".
Please see the classic definition above?
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Compare to this ayah?Ta-seen tilka ayatu alqur-ani wakitabin mubeenin
27.1 T S, that is the Koran's inseparable message, and (a) distinct/clear Book.
In order to re-emphasize that the Koran is no more than a collection of Jewish and Christian scriptures, the Koranic authors transposed the order of the same juxtaposed words; this time around claiming that the Koran is inseparable from the ?alkitabi?.
"ALKITAABI"? Again?
How can do that again and again? How much will you twist the words? This is not fair at all. The word used in the above verse is simply "Kitaabin" that clearly means "Writing".
Now see how you can make your fake claim possible?
Interesting how your eyes fail you and you cannot see ?alqur-ani? in this ayah?
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And?look at these examples?Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi walakin tasdeeqa allathee bayna yadayhi watafseela alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameena
10.37 And this the Koran was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than Allah, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands, and detailing/explaining The Book, no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from the Lord of mankind and the jinn.
The Koran details/explains the Jewish and Christian scriptures?..?
Jewish and Christian Scriptures? Read and Read and again Read the verse carefully. It says "Bayna Yadayhi" that means "Between HIS hands". Who is HE here? Where this Jewish and Christians Scriptures came in between?
What are you doing brother, FEAR your Creator.
Where are your references?or do we have to (once again) provide them for you?..?
Quote
Who would have guessed?Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu qur-anan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona
41.3 A Book its verses were detailed/explained/clarified, an Arabic Koran to a nation reasoning/comprehending/knowing.
The Jewish and Christian scriptures are inseparable from an Arabic Koran?.?
Again? What do you mean by "Arabic Koran" here? Remember it is not AlQuraan.
Have you already forgotten the classic definition for the Koran?.?
It is no more than a collection of the written words of former prophets?
Hardly something that requires a new Islamic ?prophet? to put together?and thus, he didn?t?Thanks?
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Peace Apples,
You've demanded
bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence.
Here are 5 "portions" for starters that I'd be interested in seeing you spin
4157 That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
570 We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they slay.
572 They do blaspheme who say "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God, - God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
6125 Those whom God willeth to guide, - He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying, - He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe
5016 It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
Let's focus primarily on the "portions" that I've bold-faced. wink
Thanks,
Tay -
4157 That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but THEY killed him not, nor crucified him,
The word THEY is refering to the Jews.. It says THEY (the Jews) didn't crucify Jesus. The Bible says the same thing, it wasn't the Jews who crucified Jesus. BUT NOTICE Muhammads manual doesn't say Jesus wasn't crucified. It just says the Jews didn't do it!!. So that is straight out of the Bible because the bible also says the Jews didn't do it...
You only need to look at the previous verses to see who THEY is refering to.. it is referring to the Jews..
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but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts
No didn't miss it.... The Jews (Pharisees) did try to take credit for it, so it did appear to them that THEY crucified Jesus... But the Bible makes it clear that it wasn't them who did it. Its straight out of the Bible, just reworded by Muhammad.....
Plus you can't produce ANY verse that said Jesus WASN"T crucified, ONLY verses that says the JEWS didn't do it. In fact in the very Next verse it says Jesus was raised up to God. Again straight out of the Bible
570 We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they slay
"I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute"
Straight out of the bible and reworded by muhammad
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Nice try Albion. Let's be clear.
Please provide reference to the chapter and verse where we can find in the Bible the words or explanation that God made it appear that Jesus was crucified.
Second, it is clear from the Biblical account that the Jews were responsible for the alleged crucifiction. Are the Jews not the people who brought up the charges on Jesus? Are they not the people who demanded Jesus be executed?
When a prosecutor tries a murderer and calls for the death penalty, do we blame the guy who performed the lethal injection?
Sorry bro, but you're trying too hard to defend your stance, even though you know it is clearly wrong.
In fact in the very Next verse it says Jesus was raised up to God.
Please stick to one point at a time as it's clear you've already bitten off more than you can chew. When we get to the next verse, I suggest borrowing Apple Pie's lexicon and looking up the word "rafaa".
Peace,
Tay -
Please provide reference to the chapter and verse where we can find in the Bible the words or explanation that God made it appear that Jesus was crucified
Where did I say that!!. I said it appeared to THEM (They the Jews) that THEY (the Jews) crucified him.. You have deliberately left out the word THEY (Them the Jews) so I can't provide reference to something I didn't say...
First provide the verse from the quran the says God MADE it appear that Jesus was crucified ". You are deliberately leaving out the word "THEY" out of the quote. Thy Agian !!!
And I don't mean provide a bad translation, as you will need to back up such a claim with the Arabic transliteration.....
"they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them"
"and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa)"
Do you see - "appeared so unto them" .. this is referring back to THEY crucified him
It says that it appeared that THEY (The Jews) crucified Him. It DOESN"T say it appeared He WAS crucified. Or God MADE it appear that he WAS crucified. Why do you keep leaving out the reference to THEY (the Jews) in that verse..
The Jews (Pharisees) forced the issue with the Romans, and it appeared to them that they were responsible. But in fact it had already been pre-ordained by God. So how can the Jews be responsible for something that was part of Gods plan.
Gods plans never fail!!!!
Second, it is clear from the Biblical account that the Jews were responsible for the alleged crucifiction. Are the Jews not the people who brought up the charges on Jesus? Are they not the people who demanded Jesus be executed?
No it is CLEAR it was part of Gods plan and was first prophecies by God about 800 years earlier in the Book of Isaiah. How can anyone be responsible for what God himself took credit for!!!... It only APPEARED to them that they were responsible...
When a prosecutor tries a murderer and calls for the death penalty, do we blame the guy who performed the lethal injection?
Who is blaming Pontius Pilate!!.... There is no blame on anyone, it was all part of Gods pre-ordained plan.... And Gods plans NEVER fail...
Mat 2028 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many"
1Ti 26 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Jesus GAVE his life.. it wasn't taken FROM HIM !!!
...
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Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your reply?
Peace Apples,
You've demanded
Quote
bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence.We demand nothing.
You respond because you want to?
Here are 5 "portions" for starters that I'd be interested in seeing you spin
4157 That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
570 We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they slay.
572 They do blaspheme who say "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God, - God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
6125 Those whom God willeth to guide, - He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying, - He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe
5016 It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
Let's focus primarily on the "portions" that I've bold-faced.
Thanks,
TayLet?s begin with your first attempt?and leave plenty of room for discussion before moving on to your other subsequent attempts?
4.157?
We would ask that you give some more context to your one-hit Koranic ?proof-texts? in the future?as the answers are in the context?.not in something that has been taken out of context?
Modern Muslims are notorious for massacring their very own scriptures?who needs an enemy when they are their own?.
Here?s the drill (once again)?
Review the very next ayah that follows 4.157?
Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman
4.158 On the contrary, Allah rose him (Jesus) to Him, and Allah was/is glorious/mighty, wise/judicious.
= ?Bal?
?Bal? definition
A particle of digression; it denotes emendation, wherever it occurs, in the case of negation or an affirmation; or it is a word of emendation, and denoting digression from that which precedes. When it is followed by a proposition, the meaning of the digression is either the canceling of what precedes, as in
Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan subhanahu bal AAibadun mukramoona
21.26 And they said "The Compassionate hath gotten offspring? extolled be his freedom from that which is derogatory from his glory, nay/nay rather/nay but they are honored servants."
or...
If it is used as confirmation, then it must be followed by a clause in the affirmative, no matter if the question which it follows is the negative or affirmative.
It can be rendered as But, on the contrary, besides; much more; no; nay; rather.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 242 - 245
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 62We have two other examples of the cancellation and/or correcting of prior scriptures just within Sura 4, as seen in 4.49 & 4.155?
Thus, it should come as no surprise, we can see for ourselves that 4.158 cancels what is said in 4.157 regarding the false claim that Jesus was not Crucified , and replaces this false claim with the corporeal Resurrection event as described in 4.158 & 4.159?.
A quick review?
= ?rafaAAa?
?rafaAAa? definition
Masculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 1121 - 1124
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 217 ? 218Observe the definition for corporeal
? having, consisting of, or relating to a physical material body as a not spiritual b not immaterial or intangible
= ?rafaAAahu?
?rafaAAahu? is used only this once in the entire Koran?
Thus...it is quite clear that Jesus was Crucified and ?corporeal? raised from the dead.
And...further evidence...
4.159 And that from The Book's people, except to believe with him (Jesus) before his death, and the Resurrection Day, he (Jesus) is on them a witness/testifier.
Again....what happens...?
Jesus dies...i.e. He was Crucified......Then He is Resurrected from the ?corporeal? dead...and He is a witness as mandated from the ?alkitabi? Biblical scriptures...
In addition?you could not have cherry-picked a better sura for Biblical alkitabu material?as it is specifically called out an astounding 18x?.!
But...wait...it gets better with even more context....look at 4.163...
That We inspired/transmitted to you, as We inspired/transmitted to Noah and the prophets from after him, and We inspired/transmitted to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Issac, and Jacob, and the grandchildren/Jewish tribes, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah and Aaron, and Solomon, and We gave David a Book. (4.163)
Just look at the Biblical names mentioned.
Take a real close look at the last name mentioned here...David...and his book....
His book was what....?
The Psalms.
Take a look at what his Psalms tell us...
Psa 221 To the Chief Musician, on the deer of the dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me, and are far from My deliverance, from the words of My groaning?
Psa 222 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; and in the night, and there is no silence to Me.
Psa 223 But You are holy, being enthroned on Israel's praises.
Psa 224 Our fathers trusted in You; they trusted, and You delivered them.
Psa 225 They cried to You, and were delivered; they trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
Psa 226 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of mankind, and despised by the people.
Psa 227 All who see Me scornfully laugh at Me; they open the lip; they shake the head, saying,
Psa 228 He rolled on Jehovah, let Him deliver Him; let Him rescue Him, since He delights in Him.
Psa 229 For You are He, My Taker from the womb; causing Me to trust on My mother's breasts.
Psa 2210 I was cast on You from the womb, from My mother's belly, You are My God.
Psa 2211 Be not far from Me; for trouble is near; because no one is there to help.
Psa 2212 Many bulls have circled around Me; strong bulls of Bashan have surrounded Me.
Psa 2213 They opened their mouth on Me, like a lion ripping and roaring.
Psa 2214 I am poured out like waters, and all My bones are spread apart; My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels.
Psa 2215 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and My tongue clings to My jaws;
Psa 2216 and You appoint Me to the dust of death; for dogs have encircled Me; a band of spoilers have hemmed Me in, piercing My hands and My feet.
Psa 2217 I count all My bones; they look, they stare at Me.
Psa 2218 They divide My garments among them, and they made fall a lot for My clothing.
Psa 2219 But You, O Jehovah, be not far off; O My Strength, hurry to help Me!
Psa 2220 Deliver My soul from the sword, My only one from the paw of the dog.
Psa 2221 Save Me from the lion's mouth; and from the horns of the wild oxen. You have answered Me.
Psa 2222 I will declare Your name to My brothers; I will praise You in the midst of the assembly.
Psa 2223 You who fear Jehovah, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; and all the seed of Israel, fear Him.
Psa 2224 For He has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hidden His face from Him, but when He cried to Him, He heard.
Psa 2225 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those fearing Him.
Psa 2226 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek Jehovah shall praise Him; your heart shall live forever.
Psa 2227 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn back to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You.
Psa 2228 For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations.
Psa 2229 All the fat ones of the earth have eaten, and have worshiped; all those going down to the dust shall bow before Him; and He kept not His own soul alive.
Psa 2230 A seed shall serve Him; it shall be spoken of the Lord to the coming generation;
Psa 2231 they shall come and shall declare His righteousness to a people that shall yet be born; for He has done it.David?s Psalms foretell of Jesus? Crucifixion....and sure enough, they are directly mentioned in sura 4....further confirming that Jesus was indeed Crucified and Resurrected as stated in the Arabic...
As if this were not enough, the authors of the Koran have also provided Sura 86 which demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus was indeed Crucified, Resurrected and Judges the dead.
Thanks...
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Peace Albion,
You stated
It says that it appeared that THEY (The Jews) crucified Him. It DOESN"T say it appeared He WAS crucified. Or God MADE it appear that he WAS crucified. Why do you keep leaving out the reference to THEY (the Jews) in that verse..
I'm not deliberately leaving anything out. It's all there in black and white. "But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them". Your spin does not solve the problem, nor does it provide reference to any evidence that this was copied from the Bible.
What you've brought forth is wishful thinking.
Since we've now broken the boundaries of what should be included in this debate, I ask that you consider the context
4155 In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; We need no more)"; - Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe; -
4156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
Do you see the theme here?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Apples,
You stated
We would ask that you give some more context to your one-hit Koranic ?proof-texts? in the future
That's fine, but if that's the case, try not to be so bold in your requests next time, per
bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence (emphasis yours)
you stated
Modern Muslims are notorious for massacring their very own scriptures?who needs an enemy when they are their own?.
You're going off on an irrelevant tangent here, try to stay focused. wink
Next, you weave your path away from the ayah in question into the next ayah, which is not what you had requested. Nevertheless, I'll play along.
You quoted, and emphasized
?rafaAAa? definition
Masculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.
Why am I not surprised?
Let me have a crack at it
?rafaAAa? definition
Masculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.
?rafaAAahu? is used only this once in the entire Koran?
This is misleadingly false. In fact, when "rafaa" is used in the same context, it denotes exalting in honor.
7176 Walaw shi/na larafaAAnahu biha walakinnahu akhlada ila al-ardi waittabaAAa hawahu famathaluhu kamathali alkalbi in tahmil AAalayhi yalhath aw tatruk-hu yalhath thalika mathalu alqawmi allatheena kaththaboo bi-ayatina faoqsusi alqasasa laAAallahum yatafakkaroona
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.
1956-57 Waothkur fee alkitabi idreesa innahu kana siddeeqan nabiyyan WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan
1956-57 Also mention in the Book the case of Idris He was a man of truth (and sincerity), (and) a prophet And We raised him to a lofty station.
The ball's in your court.
Peace,
Tay -
4155 In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they ...
Yes Jesus is the NEW Covenant... which replaced the OLD Covenant that was brocken.. Again straight out of the Bible
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Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your reply?
Peace Apples,
You stated
Quote
We would ask that you give some more context to your one-hit Koranic ?proof-texts? in the futureThat's fine, but if that's the case, try not to be so bold in your requests next time, per
Quote
bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence (emphasis yours)you stated
Quote
Modern Muslims are notorious for massacring their very own scriptures?who needs an enemy when they are their own?.You're going off on an irrelevant tangent here, try to stay focused.
You read our posts just like everyone else?
It clearly states ?any portion??..not a word?not an ayah?.but any portion that you think fits the criteria set forth?
You opted (for your first attempt), to show an out-of-context Islamic propaganda ayah that you wanted to use to promote the Islamic ?position??
However, since Koranic ayahs are artificially inserted into the original Arabic in the first place, your ayah submittal is really quite pathetic?.as you conveniently stopped your quote just before the Arabic word ?bal??
Had you shown full context, then you would have seen that ?bal? totally and completely erases and negates the entire ayah that precedes it?the very one that you (and Islam as a whole) uses to ?buttress? their lame position.
Your response to the classic definition of ?bal??..?
Zero.
Natta.
Zippo.
Why is this?..Tay?..?
You have just demonstrated that Islam is the result of the incomprehension of the classic Arabic and the taking of their scriptures out of context?.it is a way of life for the Muslim?unfortunately?
Now?look at this?.
Immediately after you make the statement to ?stay focused??..you immediately go onto ayah 4.158?..not even the very ayah (4.157) that you posited as your first entry?.talk about not staying ?focused??
It is clear that you perhaps do understand the meaning of the word ?bal??after all?
Next, you weave your path away from the ayah in question into the next ayah, which is not what you had requested. Nevertheless, I'll play along.
You quoted, and emphasized
Quote
?rafaAAa? definitionMasculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.
Why am I not surprised?
Let me have a crack at it
?rafaAAa? definition
Quote
Masculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.Quote
?rafaAAahu? is used only this once in the entire Koran?This is misleadingly false. In fact, when "rafaa" is used in the same context, it denotes exalting in honor.
Now?.this is fascinating?.
First of all?it is a fact that ?rafaAAahu? is used only this once in the entire Koran. This is not misleading in any way.
Secondly not only do you now start using our references (thanks for the thumbs up!)?but you move onto even more ayahs?further distancing yourself from 4.157?which you were so adamant about ?staying focused? towards?.
It is clear that you are beginning to understand the inherent weakness regarding the clich? usage of just 4.157?.are we correct?.?
4.157 is a dead ayah.
It has been replaced by 4.158 & 4.159?.
7176 Walaw shi/na larafaAAnahu biha walakinnahu akhlada ila al-ardi waittabaAAa hawahu famathaluhu kamathali alkalbi in tahmil AAalayhi yalhath aw tatruk-hu yalhath thalika mathalu alqawmi allatheena kaththaboo bi-ayatina faoqsusi alqasasa laAAallahum yatafakkaroona
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.
Remember the context?
7.174 And as/like that We detail/explain the evidences/verses, and maybe/perhaps they return.
7.175 And read/recite on them whom We gave/brought him Our verses/evidences, so he broke away/separated from it, so the devil followed him, so he was from the misguided.
7.176 And if We wanted/willed, We would have risen him with it, and but he perpetuate/immortalize/eternalize the earth/Planet Earth, and he followed his self attraction for desire/love and lust , so his example/proverb (is) like the example (of) the dog, if you burden/load on it, it pants , and if you leave it, it pants, that is (the) example/proverb (of) the nation those who lied/denied/falsified with Our verses/evidences , so narrate/relay the narration/information ,maybe/perhaps they think.
7.177 It became bad/evil an example/proverb (of) the nation those who lied/denied/falsified with Our verses/evidences, and were causing injustice/oppression (to) themselves.
Please tell us how many times ?mathalin? occurs in these ayahs??
= ?mathalin?
?mathalin? definition
Noun. Parable, likeness, similitude, like, reason, proverb, discourse, equivalent, comparison, sign, lesson, an example, case, state, condition, argument, match, an analogue. It comes from the root ?mathala?, which means to resemble, imitate, compare any one with, be or look like some one, bear a likeness.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 3017 - 3018
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 525 ? 526Please also tell us how many times the quintessential ?alkitabu? occurs in these ayahs?.?
1956-57 Waothkur fee alkitabi idreesa innahu kana siddeeqan nabiyyan WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan
1956-57 Also mention in the Book the case of Idris He was a man of truth (and sincerity), (and) a prophet And We raised him to a lofty station.
The ball's in your court.
Peace,
TayLol?.who do you think Idris refers to?.?
From Biblical ?alkitabu? no less?
Idris is none other than Enoch?
Look?
Waothkur fee alkitabi idreesa innahu kana siddeeqan nabiyyan
19.56 And remember/mention in The Book Enoch, that he truly was always very truthful, and a prophet.
WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan
19.57 And We raised him a high and mighty/dignified place/position.
19.58 Those are those who Allah blessed/praised on them from the prophets from Adam's descendants; and from who We carried with Noah, , and from Abraham's and Ishmael's descendants, and from who We guided and We chose/purified, if the merciful's verses/evidences are read/recited on them they fell down prostrating and weeping .
= ?idreesa?
?idreesa? definition
The prophet Enoch, so called from his great learning. It comes from the root ?darasa?, which means to study, read, read with attention, disappear (trace), efface, obliterate, teach. It, a trace or mark, and a house, or a thing, became effaced, erased, rased, or obliterated; or it (the trace, or mark, of a house; or what remained, cleaving to the ground, marking the place of the house) became covered with sand and dust blown over it by the wind or it, an abode, or place of sojourning, became effaced , erased, rased, or obliterated, and its traces or remains, became concealed, or unseen.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 870 - 871
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 176 - 177As copied from the Holy Bible?
Gen 524 And Enoch walked with God. Then he was not, for God took him.
WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan
19.57 And We raised him a high and mighty/dignified place/position.
Thus?.we understand that Enoch was corporeally raised to God.
Same as Jesus.
Right from your Koran.
Straight from your very own example.
We have to ask; who?s side are you on?..?
Or do you prefer playing pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey with your scriptures?.hoping that one day you may hit the bull?s-eye??!
Please put forth a concerted effort next time?.
Thanks?