=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
actually no I did not simply use the word delineate, I said the full statement delineate between 2 things.. perhaps that was not the best choice of words on my part, perhaps its better for me to say distinguish between 2 different things. I also told you that you are falling into the mistake of going from primary to secondary to tertiary derivatives. This is a VERY unreliable way of determining meanings of verses!
O.K., let's cut to the chase and come to the heart and the meat of the matter.
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What word does Allah use for detail in Al-Quran?
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Given your above rendering of fasala , how does it mean relative to the following definition of guidance
Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
187 That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
649 The Day that He assembles you (all) for a Day of Assembly,- that will be a Day of mutual loss and gain (among you), and those who believe in Allah and work righteousness,- He will remove from them their ills, and He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever that will be the Supreme Achievement.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salam,
I have some questions
Where you read that alkhalq/the creation = alkitab or = universal laws in the Reading?
Does all what is decreed/prescribed/kutiba are universal laws?
Here some examples for kutiba
2178, 2180, 2183, 2216.Looking for your thought
Thanks
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Salaams Marie, All
Salam,
I have some questions
Where you read that alkhalq/the creation = alkitab or = universal laws in the Reading?
Isn't the flawless, the doubtless (= La Rayba feeh ) Creation, FaRji3e Al Bassar --> Hal Traa min Fo6oor?, isn't it a decision/decree that Allah had made?
Aren't we Ahlu Hatha Al Kitaab? Aren't we the witnesses, the residents and one of the product of this Creation?Does all what is decreed/prescribed/kutiba are universal laws?
Here some examples for kutiba
2178, 2180, 2183, 2216.What Allah has Kataba (= has decreed) such as in Ayah should be, without doubt, in harmony with the Universal Laws. Ayah is an example of a Universal Law.
Those were very good questions, Marie. Thanks.
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Sala Taj
Salaams Marie, All
Salam,
I have some questions
Where you read that alkhalq/the creation = alkitab or = universal laws in the Reading?
Isn't the flawless, the doubtless (= La Rayba feeh ) Creation, FaRji3e Al Bassar --> Hal Traa min Fo6oor?, isn't it a decision/decree that Allah had made?
Aren't we Ahlu Hatha Al Kitaab? Aren't we the witnesses, the residents and one of the product of this Creation?There is any evidence for this interpretation (alkitab = creation).
Alkitab is rich in meanings and this arabic Reading like all divine books are the best definition for the word alkitab; a guide for those who follow closely the God's commands. Several decrees are specific for the Reading and are not universal laws.Does all what is decreed/prescribed/kutiba are universal laws?
Here some examples for kutiba
2178, 2180, 2183, 2216.What Allah has Kataba (= has decreed) such as in Ayah should be, without doubt, in harmony with the Universal Laws. Ayah is an example of a Universal Law.
This is Why I understand that that alkitab is not only the universal law, it is a reducing vision. Alkitab and the creation are linked but they are not synonym.
Several decrees are specific for the Reading, one cannot deduce them from universal laws.Those were very good questions, Marie. Thanks.
Thanks
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Peace be upon you PB,
But what you are not taking into account or ignoring is...the "verses" of Al-Quran, that is, the verses from 11 to 1146, are also called AYATS
Everything is a SIGN, there is nothing in this physical level that can escape being a sign(ayat). But "ayat" is not the arabic word for verses according to this reading.
. And yes, 496 isn't talking about the Universe, but the command of Allah not to follow any other hadith other than the Hadith --Al-Quran from Allah.
(496) You, you those who trust, if a debaucher comes to you with news/information, so seek clarification/explanation that (E) you strike/hit a nation with ignorance/foolishness, so you become/become in the morning on what you made/did regretful/remorseful .
I am not sure how your understanding fits that verse. I see 496 as saying that when someone who is known to be false comes to you with some information, it is your duty to verify it so that you are not spreading information that is detrimental to the culture and later you will be remorseful for your error. I don't even see the root "K-T-B" in this verse.
Idolfree1
No, the universe is fully detailed we just have to take it serious, not as a game/sport as the God says many do. This reading(quran) cannot be fully detailed. Lets work this out, if the trees were pens and the oceans ink, the words of the God would never run out. How many trees and oceans do you think it took to write the 114 chapters of this book? Not even one tree or ocean was used up. There is much more to be inspired to the human, but you must go within, as Musa did. This reading(quran) is only a guide to what you must do to get the rest.The reference to the trees, oceans, pens, ink etc., is to make clear to man that every word in Al-Quran was chosen by Allah for a specific reason, and, the exact number of words that are in there are supposed to be there...no more no less, do you agree?
No, I disagree. I was taught that same thing, but my unifying of the message brings me to a different understanding regarding pens/trees. I do trust in the message of this reading because it guides me to the state of Peace and I cannot find any contradictions. There is no way I can verify if this is the EXACT NUMBER of words that is suppossed to be in this reading, not even with any "19' counting. Would I be any more or less guided with an extra "There is no god but The God" stuck in this reading? But I do know that even a single tree would not be worn out in writing 114 chapters.
Allah knows how to choose His Words. Given the Universe and beyond is was created by Allah and is fully detailed, then how could Allah give man a guide toward recognizing this and the guide likewise not be complete?
You see, we are just going back and forth with the word "complete" without rooting it down with a definition.
I do agree that it is COMPLETE as a guide, to direct you to a higher level that you get from WITHIN, not outside from a book or anything else. But if you mean COMPLETE with all necessary info of Life, i say no.
What does the following mean to you
53...This day have I perfected for you your Deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as your Deen...
What, relative to the above ayat, is not fully detailed in Al-Kitab Al-Quran?
(53) ...This period of time I completed for you your system, and I completed upon you My blessing , and I approved for you the peaceful submission (as) a system...
The Gods universe is a system of LAWS that are complete. This time of the Earthly Testing is based on the cause and effect held together by these laws. Nothing is left out. It is a very simple comparison, is the universe inside of the "Koran" or is the "Koran" inside of the universe? Nothing is left out of the universe, which is controlled by Laws, complete.
The guide that is Al-Quran, per ayat 2185, must be fully detailed ,in that, it was revealed by Allah for mankind's guidance [Guidance the instructions on how to live a righteous life (especially, not doing shirk) 2185 & 649, so that, one may pass the test of conduct 187, thus, avoiding Hell 649 and gaining Paradise 649.. Certainly, you must agree that the guide, Al-Quran, is what is being referred to in ayat 2185, correct? Do you accept the definition of guidance? If so, then what, pertinent to guidance, isn't fully detailed between 11 and 1146? Of course Allah hasn't given us the details as to how to build a spectrograph or a rocket ship, but neither of those are pertinent to avoiding Hell and gaining Paradise, correct?
Ok, I see we are saying the same thing then, yes, this reading is complete in guiding us to a higher level, YES. But this does not conclude that Al Kitaab is this reading(quran).
Idolfree1
This verse states that the SIGNS (not verses) of the BOOK(universe) are explained in detail by this ARABIC reading. It is the universe that is fully detailed. This arabic reading is a guide, one of the best guides.If the guide, Al-Quran, weren't absolutely fully detailed and perfect in its guidance, then it would not be reliable as means to understand the larger/Universal Book, now would it? Without it being fully detailed in its guidance toward the end of which you are arguing, then Al-Quran is nothing but vanity.
You have misunderstood my argument so the above will be disregarded.
Idolfree1
Why isn't it? It is scientific. Just like scientists figure out how many parts of hydrogen mixed with so many parts of oxygen makes water. The wrong way becomes clear and we adjust until we get the right "mixture". Further, how do you verify if the inheritance laws work? Don't you look to life itself?Given your argument, what purpose then, is Al-Quran? Scientist are dealing with bio-physical laws, while Al-Quran, is dealing with moral laws. Certainly you see the difference in these two things.
Actually, I do not disconnect one from the other. Division is the wrong path. The God speaks of eating properly which is "bio-physical" as well, there is no need to seperate the message into physical and moral, that is what the christians did to seperate "religion" from "science".
Idolfree1
Why do you say that? I learned how to talk before I went to school, yet there are english books written. I learned how to drive from experience, yet there are books written on how to drive.What is your point here? What is the relationship of your point to Allah's raising up Messengers and the giving of scriptures/kitabs/quran?
The point is that nothing is new, that is why we are constantly told to REMEMBER because our common SOURCE is the same SOURCE of all people at all times and all things. What happenned before the first "moral book" was written? Could not the humans get guidance from studying the laws of the universe?
(2121) Y Ali- Those to whom We have sent the Book(awakened to the univere and its laws) study it as it should be studied They are the ones that trust therein Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.
Humans study the universe and get to levels where the God sends wisdom upon them and they write books to help others get there QUICKER, as oppossed to everyone having to go through the scientific experiment themselves.
What is the...Universal Law? Where can I read about it? Is it Al-Quran or what?
All laws of the universe are universal law, like the law of gravity, the law of "you reap what you sow", etc. You can read about it in many many place. This reading(quran) guides us to study the creation so that we may "hear and obey" the God's universal law.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
1015 And when Our clear Ayats are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.
Relative to the above definition and ayat
- What hasn't Al-Kitab Al-Quran, not fully detailed?
Thats a very open question, my response will be "How do I arrange a wedding", please show the answer. What I think you mean to do is ground your question with "fully detailed as a guide to the state of PEACE"
There is a reason why the God did not say the "quran" is fully detailed but said Al Kitaab was fully detailed. You told me last post that you knew the God chose the words perfectly, so you should be able to catch this.
- Certanily the above cannot be talking about the Universe being revealed to the Messenger, in that, it was already here before him.
The word "reveal" implies the uncovering of something, which is exactly what I am saying. To have the universe revealed to you is to WAKE UP , to be "born again", to be resurrected from the dead. So now no one can come to you and bring a book saying that sticks literally turn into snakes because you are AWAKE, only someone who is sleep and cannot see can go for that non metaphoric understanding. The truth is hard on most because the human being was created weak, so they want you to bring them some other reading, not the God's Truth ascertained by WITNESSING. Even this reading states that you must verify information, and veryfying brings us right back to science/mathematics, our means of KNOWWING. Lastly, the messengers bring the same message, so this message has always been here, it just gets covered up at times, so it must be revealed.
- The Ayats being recited are those from 11 to 1146, or do you disagree?
Depends on if you are talking about the current or the past. We are told to trust in that which was sent to us and that which was sent to those before us. This speaks of the TRUTH, not only the 114 chapters. I am sure that statement was said by those before this reading as well, so we cannot say that it was the 114 chapters. They were hearing TRUTH, they were hearing the STEEP PATH of freeing the slave, etc. They were hearing that cigarrette smoking is bad for your health so stop, but they ask for you to say something else, anything else so that they can feel good about thier transgressions.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
I have some questions
Where you read that alkhalq/the creation = alkitab or = universal laws in the Reading?
I do not read that literally, it is what is implied. The God says "Be" and it becomes. Everything is connected and from the very same SOURCE. The "creation" is nothing but an illusion, there is really nothing but the ONE. Just like the human body is composed of many cells who have thier own exsistence, thier own lives. Each cell needs to get norishment, reproduce, excrete waste, etc, yet they all work as ONE for the human.
The God says that the universe will be rolled up like a book, giviing us the implication more directly.
Does all what is decreed/prescribed/kutiba are universal laws?
Here some examples for kutiba
2178, 2180, 2183, 2216.Yes, that which is "written upon us" (kutiba) is universal law, but this reading does not contain all of the universal laws, it guides us to observe the creation to extract the laws ourselves and write them down so others will not have to go through the entire scientific process. It is the universe that is fully detailed and ordered by LAW so that we can use science/math to understand it.
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Peace be upon you all,
Musa was given Al Kitaab, was he given the 114 chapters?
2113 says that both the jews and christians study "Al Kitaab", does it mean they study the 114 chapters?
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PEACE, IDOL,
PRIEST Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
1015 And when Our clear Ayats are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.
Relative to the above definition and ayat
- What hasn't Al-Kitab Al-Quran, not fully detailed?
Thats a very open question, my response will be "How do I arrange a wedding", please show the answer. What I think you mean to do is ground your question with "fully detailed as a guide to the state of PEACE". There is a reason why the God did not say the "quran" is fully detailed but said Al Kitaab was fully detailed. You told me last post that you knew the God chose the words perfectly, so you should be able to catch this.
Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Come on, Idol, now you are rationalizing. How to "arrange" a wedding has nothing to do with the above definition of guidance, however, being married does. The detailed guidance is...get married before having sexual relations or , agreed?
The word "reveal" implies the uncovering of something, which is exactly what I am saying...Lastly, the messengers bring the same message, so this message has always been here, it just gets covered up at times, so it must be revealed.
I'm not discussing what reveal "implies", but what it is and what is its purpose. There were a finite number of words which Allah imparted to the Messenger, and those words begin, essentially, with 11 and and extend to 1146, in the form of a book/kitab. For example, what does the following have to do with the universe
2221 And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the FIRE, and Allah invites to the GARDEN and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His Ayats to men, that they may be mindful.
This ayat, has nothing at all to do with the universe, but everything to do with man's destiny...FIRE or GARDEN, and why the guidance is about getting married...not wedding arrangements.
- The Ayats being recited are those from 11 to 1146, or do you disagree?
Depends on if you are talking about the current or the past. We are told to trust in that which was sent to us and that which was sent to those before us. This speaks of the TRUTH, not only the 114 chapters. I am sure that statement was said by those before this reading as well, so we cannot say that it was the 114 chapters. They were hearing TRUTH, they were hearing the STEEP PATH of freeing the slave, etc. They were hearing that cigarrette smoking is bad for your health so stop, but they ask for you to say something else, anything else so that they can feel good about thier transgressions.
What came before the 114 Suras, as well as, the 114 Suras, was/is GUIDANCE . The finite number of Ayats of which the 114 Suras are comprised of, are the GUIDANCE, hence, as an aggregate, they constitute an fully detailed and error free book/kitab--Al-Quran--The Guidance, agreed?
There is no way I can verify if this is the EXACT NUMBER of words that is suppossed to be in this reading, not even with any "19' counting. Would I be any more or less guided with an extra "There is no god but The God" stuck in this reading? But I do know that even a single tree would not be worn out in writing 114 chapters.
Allah, condemns vanity , correct? Well, how, then, could He have put to many..."There is no god but The God", statements? By saying you would be no less guided if there were on less, implies that what He did by repeating His statement is excessive. Let me ask you this, given that, as a completed body of work, that is, 114 Suras, and being from Allah Himself, isn't it likely that the exact number words are contained therein? Could Allah have lapsed and forgotten...even one alphabetical character?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salaamun Alaikum,
Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,Peace be upon you all,
Peace to you to brother Kyle,
Musa was given Al Kitaab, was he given the 114 chapters?
2113 says that both the jews and christians study "Al Kitaab", does it mean they study the 114 chapters?
Thanks for pointing it out...
That makes it more clear that they read Al-Kitaab not Al-Quraan. Al-Quraan got 114 chapters not Al-Kitaab.
Regards,
MMKhan
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I wish you peace and salvation
I notice here are details being discussed?maybe this questions might throw some light?.
I would appreciate if some could find detaily determined amount of blood-money mentioned in 492(in the case when a believer unintentionally killes the other believer)?.
I read this script more than 10 years now and i find no answer to this question?. ?Is this script incomplete or its application culturally conditioned or this ordinance is incorrectly translated or somehow misunderstood?
Also i would appreciate the details of women
s body that are to be covered? And mans also?.(if there?s any)..I guess there might be that these details are somewhere detailed but incorrect translations may have covered it?
Best wishes
Zlatan
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peace brother Zlatan,
I would appreciate if some could find detaily determined amount of blood-money mentioned in 492(in the case when a believer unintentionally killes the other believer)?.
Why do you think a specific sum of money/compensation must be listed? I personally would find it odd if that were the case. In fact, to list a specific amount would be illogical. Can you give us an example of a specific amount that you'd expect to find?
Also i would appreciate the details of women
s body that are to be covered? And mans also?.(if there?s any)..I assume you have gone through the relevant signs, thus are you saying you cannot find an answer to the above in them signs?
Wakas
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Peace Wakas...
peace brother Zlatan,
I would appreciate if some could find detaily determined amount of blood-money mentioned in 492(in the case when a believer unintentionally killes the other believer)?.
Why do you think a specific sum of money/compensation must be listed? I personally would find it odd if that were the case. In fact, to list a specific amount would be illogical. Can you give us an example of a specific amount that you'd expect to find?
why not a number of cattle/animals or similar?
Imagine you have killed me today unintentionaly...how much you need to pay( and to whome?) to get away with it...
3 UK pounds... 30 UK pounds....300... 3000 ...30000?
are you allowed to give say 50 cents ? if not then why and where is the border that is acceptable?
if you say it is depending of situation culture or anything else of similar fashion i am 'afraid' that would open a can of worms for abundant redefining of many other issues...and their detaileness
Also i would appreciate the details of women
s body that are to be covered? And mans also?.(if there?s any)..I assume you have gone through the relevant signs, thus are you saying you cannot find an answer to the above in them signs?
Wakas
let make it more simple...if you going naked to your job are you making a sin? is it forbiden to go naked around? if answer is yes, then why?
best wishes, Zlatan
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peace Zlatan,
why not a number of cattle/animals or similar?
Imagine you have killed me today unintentionaly...how much you need to pay( and to whome?) to get away with it...
3 UK pounds... 30 UK pounds....300... 3000 ...30000?
are you allowed to give say 50 cents ? if not then why and where is the border that is acceptable?
or provision/supply for a certain period of time ..say 6 months, year, two etc....(we have similar examples/cases in other issues)
To give a specific value in a specific currency is impractical. For example, you stated Pounds Sterling, well, if we accept the Euro, the pound would be non-existent. Not only that, due to inflation, ?10 50 years ago was worth more than ?10 today.
One may not have cattle to give.
To whom the signs say the family.
I have not studied the signs, thus I cannot say who makes the decision on how much, but if it is the individual, they could give 50 cents, but like many things 'al quran' allows a degree of flexibility to provide a distinguishing mechanism, one who is naturally/sincerely just will give a just amount, one must have a choice, if there was no choice, then there is no point in the test. No injustice will be done as one cannot escape the scales on The Day.
One should give a just amount, and a just amount would depend on the individual and their dependents or their contribution to causes/betterment etc. To me, this is perfectly reasonable, and perfectly logical.Also, provision for a set number of years may not work because they may have a young child who would need support till they were able to provide for themselves. This could range from 1-20 years. Thus, it would depend on situation.
To answer your question, if I were to kill you accidentally, I would ask forgiveness from your dependents/family and The God. And whatever compensation your dependents/family agreed to be paid, I would pay it. IF I felt it was unreasonable I would refer it to the authority. If the dependents were not in a position to make a decision on compensation, then it would be referred to the authority. This is what seems to be implied, because it says if the family remit it, thus they are in the decision making position, and are likely to value the compensation, but I have not studied all the signs on this subject.
What problem do you have with that?
let make it more simple...if you going naked to your job are you making a sin? is it forbiden to go naked around? if answer is yes, then why?
According to the dress code guidelines in 'al quran', it would be unacceptable to go to work naked, if work involved exposure to the public.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you,
(1037) And this, the Reading is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than The God, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands, and detailing/explaining The Book(Universal Law) , no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from the Lord of the Knowledgable.
Also again, did Musa get the 114 chapter Koran? And do the jews and christians study the 114 chapter Koran?
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Peace be upon you,
If "quran" and "Al Kitaab" are the same, explain the following verse.
(1094) So if you are in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so ask/question those who read The Book from before you, the truth had come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.
We understand that the original reciever of this message is being addressed, so who was it, before him, that could have been reading THIS reading(quran)?
Instead, those of ALL TIMES have been contemplating the universe and it laws. The truth is always right in front of us. We can TEST any theory and the God's Universal Law will reject all falsehood.
(2256)...the right way is now distinct from the wrong way...
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salam idol,
279 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
explain that. no one here said kitab=quran... rather they say kitab CAN mean quran depending on the context, and sometimes it means a book in general or another particular book.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab
279 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
explain that
The verse says that Woe/Regret is upon those who try to write The Universal Laws(Al Kitaab) down into a book and claim some type of holiness for that writing saying it is from the God. The God did not write any books, all Creation is The God's Book.
no one here said kitab=quran... rather they say kitab CAN mean quran depending on the context, and sometimes it means a book in general or another particular book.
Where is the verse where Kitaab means a Physical Book called "Quran"?
Yes, Kitaab does mean book, but when the God refers to "Al" Kitaab, it is impliying the God's Universal Laws.
Those who study the Universe as it should be studied (menatl and spiritual included), they write books to help others find the path. The God has written no books, the God inspires his servants to the Truth.
