Adam
-
Peace and Greetings to All.
The story of the Genesis is, without a doubt , one of the most intriguing subjects in all religious scriptures. It is a subject that science is still trying to find an answer to How and where the human race originated.
Before I present my views on the matter, I would like to make a long but necessary introduction to explain just how the Koran deals with the narrations of past events.
-Part I-
I have read the story of the Genesis in the Koran and the Jewish scriptures , and made a comparison between the style of narration and details in the two sources.
What strikes me as worth mentioning is that the Koran, unlike the scriptures - and this is true in ALL the Koranic verses that deal with past/ historical events - does not contain needless details. Its style is simple and straightforward. The Koran stresses the importance of the 'event' and the moral lesson learned from it ,rather than mentioning needless details that contribute nothing to the relevence of the story ( such as is the case in the scriptures that the Jews perverted and corrupted in ages past ).
An excellent example of what I'm talking about can be found when comparing the two versions of the story of the Angels' visit to the house of Abraham (GBHS) The Koranic version and the version found in the corrupted Jewish scriptures. Although they are similar, the differences one can spot when making a thourough comparison between the two versions are appaling. In the Jewish version, we see verse after verse of meaningless details ( Names/descriptions of people , places, items, etc....). In the Koran, the whole story is told in a few verses that focus on the 'event' as a whole, with spectacular precision and narration style, yet without mentioning needless details.
Now I ask you What is the purpose of studying history ? Is it not to learn the truths of past events ? To learn from the mistakes of our ancestors to avoid making these mistakes again?? Is the ultimate purpose not a moral one??? That we may reflect on what happened and learn to better ourselves from it??
Or is history about knowing the length of Noah's beard, or the color of Abraham's hair, or how many doors Solomon's Temple had? Or the name of Pharao's wife?
It is this simple and effective way with which the Koran treats these subjects that the so-called "Ulama" fail to understand. They cannot be satisfied by what is told in the Koran. They feel that they must allways resort to the Torah or the Bible to 'complete' their interpretation of the Koranic narration. This is true to such an extent that whenever any of us reads the Koranic 'tafseers' written by the traditionalists, we feel as though we are reading the Torah and no longer the Koran. ( Have any of you ever felt this way? ). Sadly, 99% of what the typical Muslem knows today is derived from these same perversions that plagued the Jewish scriptures. God warned us to resort to the Koran ONLY, and not to any other book for guidance. The "Ulama" never heeded this.
Example
- All Muslims typically agree that Abraham's(GBHS) wife was called "Sarah". Yet does this name appear in the Koran?
NO
The same source from which the "Ulama" got this name states that Mary mother of Jesus was a whore, and that David(GBHS) performed obsceneties with his own daughters!!!
Is this acceptable to you???
The Koran simply says "And his wife was standing there and she laughed, and so we gave her the tidings (that she would bear) Isaac, and after Isaac Jacob "
Nowhere in the Koran is there any mention of the names that so many Muslims today have come to know and acccept as facts ( Sara, Hajar *, Asia, Abel , Cain, Eve, etc...)
Some of you might say So what? It's just a name ? What harm is there in that??
My answer Even if it is just a name, and even if it is true, WHAT USE IS IT TO THE STORY??? TO THE MORAL BEHIND THE STORY?
Why can't they just accept the Koran as it is, without seeking guidance from other sources?
Don't they know that the Jews of old perverted their scriptures to the extent that they can no longer be reliable sources??? Don't they know that those scriptures are full of contradictions and historical inacuracies??Another excellent example is the story of Joseph(GBHS). Again, the two versions are practically identical; yet, if you look closely you will easily distinguish which of the two versions is the product of men, and which is the word of God.
In the Jewish scriptures, Joseph is linked to Pharaoh. In the Koran, Pharaoh is never mentioned in the verses that talk about Joseph. Instead, we see the word "King" and not "Pharaoh".
Historical fact Joseph lived long before Moses. During Joseph's age, the ruler of Egypt was not refered to as "Pharaoh" , for he lived in the period of history which preceded the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt. The Koran refers to the ruler of Egypt at that time as the "azeez" ( meaning he who is strong in stature or station or simply "governor" ).
THERE WAS NO PHARAOH DURING THE TIME OF JOSEPH.There are so many other examples that it is beyond my capacity to state them all.
It is very important that you understand these facts before I move on to part II. Please don't hesitate to post any comments or questions you may have. D
- Concerning the name "Hajar" , I have yet to find a verse in the Koran which states that Abraham(GBHS) ever had a second wife!! In fact, what I found so far seems to indicate that all his children came from the same wife!! ( She gave birth to Isaac and Jacob at a rather old age ).
Abraham(GBHS) says "Praise be to God for granting me, despite my old age, Ismail and Isaac. My lord answers the prayers "
Muslims today believe the version told in the corrupted Jewish scriptures. ( These scriptures speak ill of almost all the prophets and messengers )From the pages and pages of meaningless details, they discern that Abraham married a woman named Hajar who was of much lower social standing than his original wife Sara. He then forced her to leave with her child, and she became lost in the desert. They fail to understand the hidden significance of this story.I leave it up to you to figure it out..
- All Muslims typically agree that Abraham's(GBHS) wife was called "Sarah". Yet does this name appear in the Koran?
-
Peace Al Qadeem,
Interesting post. I think there is also a thread by brother Idris here somewhere that collects all Qur'an verses about Adam, Musa, etc. I proposed that we set a project of 're-writing' the popular stories of the 'Genesis' personalities in light of the Qur'an, but so far we haven't got the willpower to carry it out seriously... ?
-
Historical fact Joseph lived long before Moses
Can you provide your source for this Historical fact that Joseph lived long before Moses without referring to the bible. Maybe you can also give the approximate year (BC) that Joseph lived since you said LONG before Moses. Also give the year that Moses lived so we can have a better understanding of what you mean by "LONG BEFORE"
Your argument seems to be lacking many details so before you go any further it would be interesting to know how you know these time frames without referring to the bible itself
I suggest you don't move to part two just yet until you provide solid facts of these time frames, so we can compare then to the Egyptian dynasties
The Koran refers to the ruler of Egypt at that time as the "azeez" ( meaning he who is strong in stature or station or simply "governor" ).
Yes al-Aziz means something like the ruler/chief/governor, but this chief is NOT the king of Egypt.
Gen 391 "And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain (chief) of the guard, an Egyptian bought him of the hands, of the Ishmaelites"
This same story is told in the quran 1221-30 which tells about the Egyptian who bought Joseph. The Egyptian who bought Joseph is refered to as "Al-Aziz" and is never referred to as the King (Al-Malik) of Egypt (Ruler of Egypt). The King of Egypt makes an appearance latter in the story and is referred to as "al-malik"
The King (Malik) doesn't become aquanted with joseph until verse 1250 , after the king has the dream.
1250 And the king (Malik) said Bring him to me, I will choose him for myself
What you have proved is that without the extra details it is easy to confuse two different people. Because you have confused the Original Master of Joseph, one of the King's Captians/Chief (Al-Aziz) with the King (Al-Malik) himself.
Joseph himself was also made one of the kings chiefs/captians/govenors (Al-Aziz) after he found favour with the king
1288 "And when they came before him (Joseph) they said O ruler/chief/governor"
1288 Falamma dakhaloo AAalayhi qaloo ya ayyuha alAAazeezu
Al-Aziz and Al-Malik are not the same, Al-Aziz is an officer of the King (Al-Malik)
-
Salaam,
Adam lives on today in both you and I and other people. We lose a most serene peace when we stop adhering to the laws of Allah. However Allah gives us the words that can guide us to what is best so that we will know no fear. Adam/mankind lived/s in different locals at different times.
Joe
-
Sallam dear brothers and sisters..
First , I would like to congratulate the moderators for maintaining such an interesting board, full of energy and interesting debates...
Second, I would like to comment on what member Al-Qadeem wrote here...
The fact that Joseph(PBUH) did not live during the time of Pharoah ( by the way, the correct spelling is 'Pharoah' not 'Pharaoh' wink ) may be historically accurate. Also , in the Quran, Joseph states that he was a descendant of Isaac(PBUH) and Jacob(PBUH), which puts him in the lineage of Abraham(PBUH). This doesn't mean that he was necessarily the grandchild of Abraham, but rather that he belonged to the same ethnic lineage. Moses(PBUH) on the other hand, does not seem to belong to this same lineage.
Al-Qadeem stated that Joseph lived long before Moses... During time when Egypt was not unified..
Historically this would be impossible. For this assumption to be true, Joseph would have had to exist during the pre-dynastic period ( before 3000 B.C!!! ). A more correct assumption would be that Joseph existed during the Ptolemic Age. ( Many Jewish sources agree with this, although the use of the term "Pharoah" to describe the rulers of the Ptolemic era is indeed innacurate ). The Ptolemic rulers never used that title.Hence
Moses actually came LONG BEFORE Joseph, rather than the other way around. If we accept the theory that the Pharoah who drowned was RamsesII ( or perhaps his son Mernephta ) , this was during the 19th Dynasty ( between 1280 and 1210 BC ). The Ptolemic era, which marked the dissolution of Egypt into Satraps, each ruled by a governor , began in the 4th Century B.C. ( Egypt was no longer unified ).Conclusion Moses and Joseph were separated by some 8 centuries.
I will post links to some web pages ( some of them Jewish ) to provide evidence, so that member albion can be satisfied wink
As for Al-Qadeem's theory concerning Adam, I eagerly await his post
-
Al Qadeem
Could you tell where and WHEN Adam lived ?
Peace and welcome, mansio,
If Adam is defined as the genetic ancestor of all human chromosome Y that exist today, then he lived about 59000 years ago in Africa.
http//www.corante.com/loom/archives/005799.html
-
The Koran simply says "And his wife was standing there and she laughed, and so we gave her the tidings (that she would bear) Isaac, and after Isaac Jacob "
Yes you are right it does simply say it. So simple in fact that appears that Abraham has the wrong son (Jacob). Or is this a wrong translation you have given.
Jacob was Isaac's son not Abraham's son
In fact, what I found so far seems to indicate that all his children came from the same wife!! ( She gave birth to Isaac and Jacob at a rather old age ).
At first I thought you gave the wrong translation on that verse, but you again repeated that Jacob is Abraham/sarah's son in your own words in another part of your post.
Can you clarify what your understanding is on this thanks
-
Moses actually came LONG BEFORE Joseph, rather than the other way around.....
Gen 5025 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying God will surely visit, you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence
Exo 1319 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying God will surely visit, you; and ye shall carry up my bones away.
Jos 2432 And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought.
I will post links to some web pages ( some of them Jewish ) to provide evidence, so that member albion can be satisfied
Thanks Liberal but you maybe confusing Joseph (son of Jacob) with a different Joseph in the scripture.
a few others Joseph (son of Asaph), Joseph (of Issachar), Joseph (the Judahite), Joseph (of Bani), Joseph (of Shabaniah)
-
Albion,
According to the old testament, Moses was a superman, dear. He not only described his own death, but despite the fact that the bible said he was a humble man, he went on to boast that never a man like him will come to Israel. So Moses might have easily carried Joseph's bones before the latter was even born. Trivial matter for a superman...
-
First of all the so-called Torah (five books allegedly written by Moses (pbuh) ) are not 'pure' or 100% truthful anymore, cos the Lord (YHVH) has said so to prophet Jeremiah (pbuh)
Jer 88 How do ye say 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD (Torah YHVH - ) is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes.
There is another version of "Genesis" and it is called the "Book Of Jasher". Although this book seems to be a secular history / tales book of Adam to Joshua. It contains a story about Abram destroying idols, a debate between Abram and his people on the foolishness of idol worshipping, the trial of Abram and the death sentence by fire.
http//www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/
During Joseph's age, the ruler of Egypt was not refered to as "Pharaoh"
According to the book of jasher, chapter 14, the origins of Pharaoh came from Rikayon who named "Pharaoh" by then king of Egypt named "Osiris"
27 And the king answered and said to Rikayon, Thy name shall no more be called Rikayon but Pharaoh shall be thy name, since thou didst exact a tax from the dead; and he called his name Pharaoh.
Osiris was so much loved by the people of Egypt. After his death, he become idolized thus turned to (one of) the god(s) by the egyptians.. (The pattern of idolizing honorable person (turned to god) after his/her death seems to be recurring isn't it, Osiris, Jesus and so on...)
Allah knows best